498 réponses à ce sujet

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

Paper420 wrote...

Seriously ofcourse BW knew what they were doing, but no doubt they will be shocked by the amount of hate they got for this almost-decent game.

They probably figured that people who didn't like the game just wouldn't buy it.  They should have known that some portion of their fanbase would engage in primal scream therapy all over the internet, I guess.

[IanPolaris]

Paper420 wrote...

Seriously ofcourse BW knew what they were doing, but no doubt they will be shocked by the amount of hate they got for this almost-decent game.

That's what so sad.  Under other circumstances, DA2 would be a decent (not great but decent) hybrid RPG/Shooter.  The problem is that they stuck the Dragon-Age label on it and rushed it.

Dragon Age has a hard core (almost cultlike) following with some very demanding expectations (esp for a title from Bioware)....and DA2 doesn't come close to delivering on that perceived promise that is made by sticking the Dragon Age label on it.

-Polaris

[erynnar]

Paper420 wrote...

Seriously ofcourse BW knew what they were doing, but no doubt they will be shocked by the amount of hate they got for this almost-decent game.

You know, I like that description...almost-decent. It was almost decent from BioWare, anyone else it would be have decent and good. I used someone else's description (and I kick myself I can't remember whose and give them the credit the deserve:crying:) , splendid in its mediocrity.  

Really, just wanted to love it, still tugs at me. I feel so bipolar about.

[jmbrosendo]

I'd say it was more like the other way around, the fans were somewhat stunned by DA2, hehe.


It's hard to believe Bioware did not know in the end what they had actually produced. They may have not expected such backlash, but surely they were expecting a negative reception. A company with people whom have decades of experience producing games, can judge better than anyone else the quality of their own products, and how well they will do.

A given atleast is they expected negative reactions from changes done. Nobody likes change, that's a universal rule.

[IanPolaris]

Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...

Paper420 wrote...

Seriously ofcourse BW knew what they were doing, but no doubt they will be shocked by the amount of hate they got for this almost-decent game.

They probably figured that people who didn't like the game just wouldn't buy it.  They should have known that some portion of their fanbase would engage in primal scream therapy all over the internet, I guess.

They almost certainly figured that.  What they failed to figure was how badly the original fanbase would feel alienated AND how little the game would appeal to the broader "CoD" crowd the Devs were openly 'shooting' for.

-Polaris

[erynnar]

IanPolaris wrote...

Paper420 wrote...

Seriously ofcourse BW knew what they were doing, but no doubt they will be shocked by the amount of hate they got for this almost-decent game.

That's what so sad.  Under other circumstances, DA2 would be a decent (not great but decent) hybrid RPG/Shooter.  The problem is that they stuck the Dragon-Age label on it and rushed it.

Dragon Age has a hard core (almost cultlike) following with some very demanding expectations (esp for a title from Bioware)....and DA2 doesn't come close to delivering on that perceived promise that is made by sticking the Dragon Age label on it.

-Polaris

And this^. I didn't do a primal scream...I do hope I gave them good and useable feedback. I dunno, I worry, I have no desire to be a git or a whiner.

[IanPolaris]

jmbrosendo wrote...

I'd say it was more like the other way around, the fans were somewhat stunned by DA2, hehe.


It's hard to believe Bioware did not know in the end what they had actually produced. They may have not expected such backlash, but surely they were expecting a negative reception. A company with people whom have decades of experience producing games, can judge better than anyone else the quality of their own products, and how well they will do.

A given atleast is they expected negative reactions from changes done. Nobody likes change, that's a universal rule.

I agree that it can be hard to believe, but from what I've read of his interviews and posts here Mike Laidlaw strikes me as a man that believes and has fallen in love with his own hype.  This can happen and it's dangerous.....

-Polaris

[erynnar]

jmbrosendo wrote...

I'd say it was more like the other way around, the fans were somewhat stunned by DA2, hehe.


It's hard to believe Bioware did not know in the end what they had actually produced. They may have not expected such backlash, but surely they were expecting a negative reception. A company with people whom have decades of experience producing games, can judge better than anyone else the quality of their own products, and how well they will do.

A given atleast is they expected negative reactions from changes done. Nobody likes change, that's a universal rule.

ROFL!!! That is so true! I for one was stunned. I admit, I didn't listen to my husband, who tried to warn me (he bought it for me anyways for my birthday) and I specifically did not want to be spoilered ( I knew it wouldn't be my Warden, and different) so I avoided friends talking about it or the forums. I don't think I'll do that again.

I know they had to expect some backlash, to be sure...but this much?

[ChickenDownUnder]

With all the changes that were made to DA2, undoubtedly they were prepared for at least some negativity. Just not as much. Pretty sure several employees at Bioware are in defense mode, going by how at least one guy decided to post an overly positive review on Metacritic to try to balance all the hate on there.

I just hope they don't all take a 'baby with the bathwater' mentality and ignore all the criticism. Some of the points made are really good.

Like mine.

[erynnar]

IanPolaris wrote...

Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...

Paper420 wrote...

Seriously
ofcourse BW knew what they were doing, but no doubt they will be
shocked by the amount of hate they got for this almost-decent
game.

They probably figured that people who didn't like
the game just wouldn't buy it.  They should have known that some portion
of their fanbase would engage in primal scream therapy all over the
internet, I guess.

They almost certainly figured that. 
What they failed to figure was how badly the original fanbase would feel
alienated AND how little the game would appeal to the broader "CoD"
crowd the Devs were openly 'shooting' for.

-Polaris

I don't mind change, I expected it. But not the 180 degrees that happened. Not when Mr. Laidlaw said the changes wouldn't be drive away the orginal fans.

IanPolaris wrote...

jmbrosendo wrote...

I'd say it was more like the other way around, the fans were somewhat stunned by DA2, hehe.


It's hard to believe Bioware did not know in the end what they had actually produced. They may have not expected such backlash, but surely they were expecting a negative reception. A company with people whom have decades of experience producing games, can judge better than anyone else the quality of their own products, and how well they will do.

A given atleast is they expected negative reactions from changes done. Nobody likes change, that's a universal rule.

I agree that it can be hard to believe, but from what I've read of his interviews and posts here Mike Laidlaw strikes me as a man that believes and has fallen in love with his own hype.  This can happen and it's dangerous.....

-Polaris

Yeah, I get that feeling from him too. I could be wrong of course, but that is the impression I get.

[erynnar]

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

With all the changes that were made to DA2, undoubtedly they were prepared for at least some negativity. Just not as much. Pretty sure several employees at Bioware are in defense mode, going by how at least one guy decided to post an overly positive review on Metacritic to try to balance all the hate on there.

I just hope they don't all take a 'baby with the bathwater' mentality and ignore all the criticism. Some of the points made are really good.

Like mine.

*hands Chicken a cookie she stole from Sten*  I hope they don't throw the baby out with the bathwater either Chicken!

[Etnos]

It´s crazy for me how Bioware dishes a engine and all the assets for a game so extensive and beutifuly crafted like Dragon Age Origins.. And replaced with an engine that actually looks worst both artistically and technically and rushes a half ass game.

Modifié par Etnos, 07 mai 2011 - 07:42 .

[Sabriana]

erynnar wrote...

jmbrosendo wrote...

I'd say it was more like the other way around, the fans were somewhat stunned by DA2, hehe.

It's hard to believe Bioware did not know in the end what they had actually produced. They may have not expected such backlash, but surely they were expecting a negative reception. A company with people whom have decades of experience producing games, can judge better than anyone else the quality of their own products, and how well they will do.

A given atleast is they expected negative reactions from changes done. Nobody likes change, that's a universal rule.

ROFL!!! That is so true! I for one was stunned. I admit, I didn't listen to my husband, who tried to warn me (he bought it for me anyways for my birthday) and I specifically did not want to be spoilered ( I knew it wouldn't be my Warden, and different) so I avoided friends talking about it or the forums. I don't think I'll do that again.

I know they had to expect some backlash, to be sure...but this much?

Yeah, me too Erynnar. I avoided the forums, ads, interviews. How stupid of me. It'll never happen again, that is sure.

Like I said earlier here, bioware never had to deal with anything like this. From BG on they had their share of complainers, certainly, but in the end things always calmed down, and the fans came around. Not this time. I don't think this boat can be turned around. There's simply too much wrong with the game, imo. It will never be more than average, at least to me.

As for change, I don't mind change. I enjoy many kinds of RPGs, old and new. Wizard of the Coast (they own the rights to D & D, like the Forgotten Realms for example, WotC for short) has been jerking player around for years. Gary Gygax (creator of D & D) is most likely rolling in his grave. But most adjusted. Grudgingly but we did. I jumped ship when the 4ed came out. Some changes are simply not acceptable.

[Sanguinerin]

I believe that the developers may have expected a backlash, but perhaps not to this degree. The game is quite a stretch from Dragon Age: Origins. If DAO and Dragon Age II weren't connected by lore, I would never consider them to be the same series.

I wouldn't say that everything was terrible about DAII. I liked the concepts behind some of the gameplay and story. The family aspect influencing your character's behavior was interesting. The Qunari problem was interesting. The templar and mage issue was, you guessed it, interesting. However, the hype was too big over aspects that weren't as developed as they should have been.

I enjoyed Act I more than the others. I didn't care for the "retrieve item, return to owner" quests. If, perhaps, the owners had asked me to fetch their belongings or had a conversation with me about them, then that might have been more acceptable. However, I'm curious as to how Hawke knew where to deliver all of these random objects, or even how they stood out enough for her to realize that they didn't belong somewhere. For instance, I remember one of them being a bottle of alcohol. How in the world was Hawke supposed to know where to deliver a random bottle, or even that someone wanted that bottle, without being given a notice of, "hey! I've lost my bottle of [...]!"

In ME2, Dr. Chakwas reminiscing about a bottle of serrice ice brandy she lost is a good indicator where she doesn't ask Shepard for something, but he can remember it later when he comes across a bottle.

I would have loved for more interactions between my family to really make them feel more personal. You lose one sibling in the beginning, so you can't really care about them. You lose another to various outcomes later on, and for a good portion of the game, so there's little development continuing there either. Then there's Leandra's terrible personal quest in Act II that I'm hoping a modder can remove all traces of in the game for me at some point. At the end, you can result in just having Gamlen left. There's still no feeling of, "we're family, let's re-connect" or "let's try to hold onto what we have."

I didn't find myself caring for my family as much as I should have. Your sibling should have remained a permanent companion so that they could really have bonded (or fought) over issues throughout the entirety of the game. I have enough complaints about Leandra that I've shared in various threads before already. Also, about Gamlen, I really wanted to bring him to the Amell Estate with me in Act III. I wanted to develop that relationship so much more... It's a shame that he really doesn't mean anything to the story in my opinion.

The Qunari and the templar-mage issues also didn't reinforce each other well. I honestly could see them being separate games entirely, especially since the latter didn't directly hit the scene until the messy final act.

These issues could have been better planned with a longer development cycle. I actually like these particular ideas and directions that the developers meant to portray. That's another reason why I think that they may be shocked. On paper (or during development on these forums pre-release), a lot of these plans sounded good! I also think that the writers are perfectly capable of integrating them together.

However, that short development cycle coupled with the complete graphics overhaul and gameplay adjustments severely struck at the heart of the execution of the story. If they had spent less time on giving us more unique models (or less, considering we don't see female dwarves, shrieks, genlocks, and various other prominent figures from before) for example, then they might have had more time to do the story better justice.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is the shock may have been expected, but not to this degree. As I said and agree with, some of the ideas for this game sounded great in theory. However, it's the poor implementation that didn't exactly allow them to live up to the high expectation of quality most people seem to give to BioWare.

[RaenImrahl]

Etnos wrote...

It´s crazy for me how Bioware dishes a engine and all the assets for a game so extensive and beutifuly crafted like Dragon Age Origins.. And replaced with an engine that actually looks worst both artistically and technically and rushes a half ass game.

The engine itself hasn't changed much between the two games, actually.  The code has been cleaned up, which was badly needed.  The art style was a concious decision, by all accounts.  Certainly the latter has not sat well with everyone.

[ChickenDownUnder]

The source of most of the problems can be leveled at just not having enough time to iron out kinks as it is.

erynnar wrote...

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

With all the changes that were made to DA2, undoubtedly they were prepared for at least some negativity. Just not as much. Pretty sure several employees at Bioware are in defense mode, going by how at least one guy decided to post an overly positive review on Metacritic to try to balance all the hate on there.

I just hope they don't all take a 'baby with the bathwater' mentality and ignore all the criticism. Some of the points made are really good.

Like mine.

*hands Chicken a cookie she stole from Sten*  I hope they don't throw the baby out with the bathwater either Chicken!

Why thank you kind lady.

[Volourn]

I like how people make up fantasy numbers to prove about. 1.3-1.5mil copies sold? Made up numbers not found in reality. The onyl number we know for sure is DA2 has sold 2mil+. This is undisputable fact.

Crying about it and throwing out random numbers otherwise is just silly.

[Merced652]

Volourn wrote...

I like how people make up fantasy numbers to prove about. 1.3-1.5mil copies sold? Made up numbers not found in reality. The onyl number we know for sure is DA2 has sold 2mil+. This is undisputable fact.

Crying about it and throwing out random numbers otherwise is just silly.

Don't think that word means what you think it means. Just sayin'.

[Sabriana]

Etnos wrote...

It´s crazy for me how Bioware dishes a engine and all the assets for a game so extensive and beutifuly crafted like Dragon Age Origins.. And replaced with an engine that actually looks worst both artistically and technically and rushes a half ass game.

You see, that's what I don't get. They rip the guts out of a game that is their best selling RPG to-date. Then they play confused Frankenstein, and put together something really odd. A whole mish-mash of genres, such as anime, h&s, FPS/TPS,  and action. How can they expect this odd mix to appeal to everyone?

It's not a bad game. It's simply not a sequel to DA:O. It has its  good points, but to me, they are too few and far between. An average game with a price tag of a good RPG. That only adds to the anger people feel. No one likes to feel that they've been ripped off. Had I waited, I would've known not to expect a sequel despite it being hyped as one. I also wouldn't have been fooled by the # 2. Combine this with the price it is selling for now around here (half-price), I wouldn't be upset at all.

These people are experts at putting together great games for the genre. I simply can't believe that they didn't realise that this odd game with an identity crisis would fail to appeal to most of their core fans, those who expected a true sequel, and would also fail to attract the CoD people. Or GoW people. I forget who they were reaching for, but I think it was one of those two.

[IanPolaris]

Volourn wrote...

I like how people make up fantasy numbers to prove about. 1.3-1.5mil copies sold? Made up numbers not found in reality. The onyl number we know for sure is DA2 has sold 2mil+. This is undisputable fact.

Crying about it and throwing out random numbers otherwise is just silly.

Actually I'm not.  The public tracking data is the best indicators we have and it colloberates what I am saying.  Sure there are issues, but I tend to trust their estimates.  We know that the EA numbers are off or else they'd claim sell-through rather than sell-in numbers.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 07 mai 2011 - 08:10 .

[Jerrybnsn]

IanPolaris wrote...

 They will persue the "truth" of what makes Dragon Age successful in their eyes regardless of what the marketing "facts" say...and that sort of disconnect never ends well.


-Polaris

I wouldn't be surprised if it was actually a "marketing" team that started the whole re-directing of the Dragon Age franchise. 

Think about it.  EA just bought the franchise, so they send in a team to do an overview of their projects; Mass Effect and Dragon Age, and they say; here are our power points on games that are selling well and what you need to do to make it more appealling for increase sales.  That would have been when Brent Knowles said, no thanks, and Mike Laidlaw said, I'll do it.

[Satyricon331]

RaenImrahl wrote...
The engine itself hasn't changed much between the two games, actually.  The code has been cleaned up, which was badly needed.  The art style was a concious decision, by all accounts.  Certainly the latter has not sat well with everyone.

Just to poke my head in here, I'm not so sure.  Brent Knowles has written "these were major engine changes that occurred from DA:O to DA2."  I've remarked before it struck me as strange to allocate time to changing the engine when you have such limited time.  

My inner skeptic says BW had some idea they'd have a big backlash.  DAA implements some of Mike Laidlaw's ideas about increasing accessibility (starting in combat to hook the shooter/casual audience, some weakened rpg elements, cheap crazywoman villain who lacks nuance, etc.) and its reception was tepid even apart from bugs.  The only rpg improvement DA2 had over DAA I can think of (besides longer plot etc.) is stronger companion interaction/characterization, but that wouldn't have been enough to win over the rpg fans likely to backlash.  The biggest change is the combat feel and if anything that element would provoke them.  They just expected the professional reviewers to be more sympathetic to their appeals to casual gamers than they were.

[Teredan]

Sabriana wrote...

You see, that's what I don't get. They rip the guts out of a game that is their best selling RPG to-date. Then they play confused Frankenstein, and put together something really odd. A whole mish-mash of genres, such as anime, h&s, FPS/TPS,  and action. How can they expect this odd mix to appeal to everyone?

It's not a bad game. It's simply not a sequel to DA:O. It has its  good points, but to me, they are too few and far between. An average game with a price tag of a good RPG. That only adds to the anger people feel. No one likes to feel that they've been ripped off. Had I waited, I would've known not to expect a sequel despite it being hyped as one. I also wouldn't have been fooled by the # 2. Combine this with the price it is selling for now around here (half-price), I wouldn't be upset at all.

These people are experts at putting together great games for the genre. I simply can't believe that they didn't realise that this odd game with an identity crisis would fail to appeal to most of their core fans, those who expected a true sequel, and would also fail to attract the CoD people. Or GoW people. I forget who they were reaching for, but I think it was one of those two.

Not to mention the marketing campaign that adds to the wounds.

I remember lines like the 10 years epic journey, and Kirkwall the giant living city. (Or something along those lines)

[Volourn]

"Don't think that word means what you think it means. Just sayin'."

True. I should have wrote its 'undisputable fact by sane people'. My bad, and my apologies for my error of judgement.


"that is their best selling RPG to-date."

ME2 - an action rpg - would make ana rgument that that isn't the case.


"anime, h&s, FPS/TPS, and action."

Really? Anime and shooter? I can understand the action argument (h&s is not a genre - in fact it's a type of rpg) but anime and shooter? Come on now, don't be silly. Anyways, DA2 is a rpg. You cnaa rgue it's a worse rpg than DA1 but it a RPG. And, it certainly is a way better RPG than BG1. Then again, every single BIO game since BG onward is a better RPG than BG1.


"Actually I'm not.  The public tracking data is the best indicators we have and it colloberates what I am saying.  Sure there are issues, but I tend to trust their estimates.  We know that the EA numbers are off or else they'd claim sell-through rather than sell-in numbers."

VGHChartz is not accurate. VGChartz doesn't even trust their own numbers. They've listed games at x copies and then changed them no questions asked to match their competitors' numbers b/c vghcratz knows their numbers are simply untrustworthy. They've had games where they listed it at certain numbers and others listed it 3 times as much and then vghchartz changed it to match.

How can people have faith in a system that doesn't even have faith initself? Does not compute.

Modifié par Volourn, 07 mai 2011 - 08:15 .

[IanPolaris]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

 They will persue the "truth" of what makes Dragon Age successful in their eyes regardless of what the marketing "facts" say...and that sort of disconnect never ends well.


-Polaris

I wouldn't be surprised if it was actually a "marketing" team that started the whole re-directing of the Dragon Age franchise. 

Think about it.  EA just bought the franchise, so they send in a team to do an overview of their projects; Mass Effect and Dragon Age, and they say; here are our power points on games that are selling well and what you need to do to make it more appealling for increase sales.  That would have been when Brent Knowles said, no thanks, and Mike Laidlaw said, I'll do it.

I think it's a combination of both.  I do think you're likely right that a marketing-management team (a Dilbertian 'pinhead' team) took a look at the CoD, ME2, and DAO audiences and said, "wouldn't it be cool if we changed the game such that...."  But I ALSO think Mike Laidlaw who didn't like DAO as it was to start with said, YEAH BABY, that's what I'm talking about.  That's MY vision....give me that direction and the franchinse and I'll make you a masterpiece.  (Yes tongue firmly in cheek but I do think that's what largely happened).

-Polaris