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The Old Republic Discussion Thread


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#51
Anathemic

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Okay, here's the reasons I suspect SW:TOR will fail.

What is SW:TOR bringing new to the table? This is simple, story of 'course, BioWare's self-acclaimed "4th pillar" of the MMORPG genre, good for them. So.... what about the other features?

See this is the problem SW:TOR already has, too much focus on story. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a story-driven MMORPG, but it doesn't work in the MMORPG genre right now, how come?

Look at all the past MMOs such as Everquest. Does Everquest have an awesome story? Hell no. Let's look at recent one, World of Warcraft. Does World of Warcraft have an awesome story? Hell no. Let's look at a current one whose doing fairly well, Rift. Does Rift have an awesome story? Currently, hell no.

So how do these MMOs live/succeed? I'll tell you, gameplay. It's that simple. No I'm not some sub par intellectual who believe gameplay > story and plays CoD 24/7. No I'm a MMO vet from WoW and before that, a vet of Warcraft 3. I've seen the rise and failings of a couple of MMOs and once they fail they never come back, ever.

Back to the point, yeah it's gameplay that determines a MMORPGs longevity. And of course content, however we can't judge content, so lets look at gameplay. Fact of the matter is that at least 90% of the MMO playerbase don't give a rat's ass about story, sorry that's the truth. SW:TOR, from what I've seen is not bringing anything new to the gameplay feature nor is it improving it in anyway useful.

Let's see, we have lightsaber choreography. Uh-huh, is this at all practical when you are getting hit from all sides? I don't care if you're a ****ing super powered Jedi or Sith, this ain't the damn novels or movies. So that's a useless feature.

Oh yeah, force powers. Sith lightning and force choke may be awesome and cool for a while. But down the road when you're a few levels from level cap and seen the same damn move 10,000+ times (and this is way below the number of what you will realistically see) it will get pretty boring fast, garunteed.

To go on a more general view, because I don't have any statistics on character stats or whatever, the gameplay looks exactly the same as any MMO does. A few videos on youtube and guess what, it still has level grinding, the number one pain in MMOs. Go check a few videos on PvP, ****ing slow and clunky as hell.

And on a sidenote, bounty hunter animations look retarded. You jog at an even pace with a sterdy unmoving arm holding a pistol right in front of you. And when you want to take cover, you don't dodgeroll behind a barrier, no you set up a mini shield right in front of you. And here's the best part of the whole thing, you don't duck and cover like you usually would behind a barrier. No, you freagin' do a casual kneel and go "herp derp."

Let's go onto another feature that's more story-oriented, companions. Y'know from a single-player perspective this is pretty damn awesome. Now let's expand that into the MMO perspective. Don't you love it in the first hour of the game you've already met 10+ people who has the same exact companion as you? Immersion my ass. At best this is like one of those vanity pets you get in WoW except it's in full sized humanoid form! Not exactly the best idea.

In conclusion, MMOs thrive on gameplay. That's a fact. Sure in the future be it near or far it may evolve into story-based, but right now it's not going to. What I suggest is a MMO who balances story and gameplay evenly then as time progresses slightly tweak the story elements faster and better than the gameplay elements in small amounts. SW:TOR seeks to massively change the genre by just upping one category while leaving the others behind, this is a nono.

So yes SW:TOR will fail in my perspective, I would love to be proven wrong. But so far from what I've seen, it's not going to happen. And when it does fail and falls in the niche where Age of Conan and Warhammer: AoK resides in, you will remember my words, garunteed.

Modifié par Anathemic, 13 juin 2011 - 07:19 .


#52
Elhanan

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Anathemic wrote...

Okay, here's the reasons I suspect SW:TOR will fail....

...So yes SW:TOR will fail in my perspective, I would love to be proven wrong. But so far from what I've seen, it's not going to happen. And when it does fail and falls in the niche where Age of Conan and Warhammer: AoK resides in, you will remember my words, garunteed.


I agree; from your perspective, SWTOR will fail.

But remove the speculation, conjecture, subjective bias and prejedgements, and maybe this story driven MMORPG from a company known for outstanding QA & support has a chance; make that a great chance.

#53
naughty99

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The companions sound pretty interesting from the PC gamer interview.

Both of the reviewers seemed to think each of the companions are really well-written typical Bioware companion characters with branching storylines, even romances are possible.

Modifié par naughty99, 13 juin 2011 - 08:12 .


#54
Chromie

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naughty99 wrote...

The companions sound pretty interesting from the PC gamer interview.

Both of the reviewers seemed to think each of the companions are really well-written typical Bioware companion characters with branching storylines, even romances are possible.


Having a romance as a jedi should be fun especially since that should draw us towards the neutral or darkside liek Joe Lee or Anakin. I'd really like to see how that plays out.

#55
Kabanya101

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I'm not really into Star Wars, but the Old Republic looks like a great game, but I don't know if its coming to the 360. I'm not a big computer game player.

#56
Chromie

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Don't hold your breath MMO's on consoles rarely work or have the depth. I hated DCU. Though Dust 514 could be amazing if it's anywhere near as challenging and filled with depth as Eve Online is.

#57
Dariuszp

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Doug Creutz latest statemant about this game is that this is just WOW clone (sorry about that WOW clone but still - WOW is most popular mmo out there that clone everything good in this genre to himself) with Star Wars disguise.
Only thing new in this game are dialogues.

So how much story will keep you playing ? I dont know. I love DC Universe. I loved KOTOR but TOR look nothing like KOTOR. It's childlish in graphic. These lightsabers look like very poor in my opinion.

Need to try it out but i think that game can keep folks for some time. First hype, story etc. But then you got nothing that other mmo have. Is this enough for you people ?

#58
naughty99

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Dariuszp wrote...

Need to try it out but i think that game can keep folks for some time. First hype, story etc. But then you got nothing that other mmo have. Is this enough for you people ?


I've never played any MMOs before, but based on the reviews I've read, I'm willing to give it a try. (depending on the price)

Did they announce how much it will cost per month?

Ringo12 wrote...

Having a romance as a jedi should be fun especially since that should draw us towards the neutral or darkside liek Joe Lee or Anakin. I'd really like to see how that plays out.

Apparently your actions and choices can influence your companion character to switch to the other side (light or dark).

Modifié par naughty99, 13 juin 2011 - 08:34 .


#59
Druss99

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Elhanan wrote...

I agree; from your perspective, SWTOR will fail.

But remove the speculation, conjecture, subjective bias and prejedgements, and maybe this story driven MMORPG from a company known for outstanding QA & support has a chance; make that a great chance.


As much as I like Bioware games I don't think I'd ever describe their QA and support as oustanding. Thats pushing it a bit far for me. But then again a great many truths depend on a certain point of view...

#60
Guest_Capt. Obvious_*

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Elhanan wrote...

Capt. Obvious wrote...

The gameplay is the same. People judge the game by that alone because gameplay has always defined MMOs for the most part.


Evidently, not all the people. While some may judge by such criteria, others may be more concerned about content, storyline, and being able to interact in that environment.


I have doubts about the storyline. It seems to be more of what we've already had before in Star Wars. And the characters they've introduced so far haven't quite piqued my interest. I have faith, but I'm afraid that BioWare will go the route most EU authors go and tell a story that has already been told.

#61
Elhanan

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Dariuszp wrote...

Doug Creutz latest statemant about this game is that this is just WOW clone (sorry about that WOW clone but still - WOW is most popular mmo out there that clone everything good in this genre to himself) with Star Wars disguise.
Only thing new in this game are dialogues.

So how much story will keep you playing ? I dont know. I love DC Universe. I loved KOTOR but TOR look nothing like KOTOR. It's childlish in graphic. These lightsabers look like very poor in my opinion.

Need to try it out but i think that game can keep folks for some time. First hype, story etc. But then you got nothing that other mmo have. Is this enough for you people ?


Yep; way more than the repeated negativity anyway.

#62
Elhanan

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Druss99 wrote...

As much as I like Bioware games I don't think I'd ever describe their QA and support as oustanding. Thats pushing it a bit far for me. But then again a great many truths depend on a certain point of view...


Show me that NWN1 support - a product a decade old -  is simply on average, then I might have a different perspective.

#63
Elhanan

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Capt. Obvious wrote...

I have doubts about the storyline. It seems to be more of what we've already had before in Star Wars. And the characters they've introduced so far haven't quite piqued my interest. I have faith, but I'm afraid that BioWare will go the route most EU authors go and tell a story that has already been told.


Even if the storyline were to repeat KOTOR, I would still find it more compelling than what Luxas offered for his own franchise prequels, IMO. I see your doubts, and raise you on proven content.

#64
Anathemic

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Elhanan wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

Okay, here's the reasons I suspect SW:TOR will fail....

...So yes SW:TOR will fail in my perspective, I would love to be proven wrong. But so far from what I've seen, it's not going to happen. And when it does fail and falls in the niche where Age of Conan and Warhammer: AoK resides in, you will remember my words, garunteed.


I agree; from your perspective, SWTOR will fail.

But remove the speculation, conjecture, subjective bias and prejedgements, and maybe this story driven MMORPG from a company known for outstanding QA & support has a chance; make that a great chance.


Did you read my post throroughly? Yes it's my opinion, however I based my opinion on facts.

Outstanding QA and support? Yeah maybe from like 10 years ago, show me the QA + support in the recent 3-4 years, times change buddy.

#65
Maverick827

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Anathemic wrote...

Yes it's my opinion, however I based my opinion on facts.


Amazingly real an unarguable facts, such as:

Look at all the past MMOs such as Everquest. Does Everquest have an awesome story? Hell no. Let's look at recent one, World of Warcraft. Does World of Warcraft have an awesome story? Hell no. Let's look at a current one whose doing fairly well, Rift. Does Rift have an awesome story? Currently, hell no.

Fact of the matter is that at least 90% of the MMO playerbase don't give a rat's ass about story, sorry that's the truth.

But down the road when you're a few levels from level cap and seen the same damn move 10,000+ times (and this is way below the number of what you will realistically see) it will get pretty boring fast, garunteed.

because I don't have any statistics on character stats or whatever

PvP, ****ing slow and clunky as hell.

And on a sidenote, bounty hunter animations look retarded.

Please just take your terrible amrchair game developing and leave.

Modifié par Maverick827, 13 juin 2011 - 10:40 .


#66
Guest_Capt. Obvious_*

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Elhanan wrote...

Capt. Obvious wrote...

I have doubts about the storyline. It seems to be more of what we've already had before in Star Wars. And the characters they've introduced so far haven't quite piqued my interest. I have faith, but I'm afraid that BioWare will go the route most EU authors go and tell a story that has already been told.


Even if the storyline were to repeat KOTOR, I would still find it more compelling than what Luxas offered for his own franchise prequels, IMO. I see your doubts, and raise you on proven content.


That's just lowering one's standards. The prequel storyline may have lacked execution, but it was technically the best and most original of the universe, because it wasn't just a Jedi vs. Sith plot. There was a lot more going on that the expanded universe elaborated on. What people want from BioWare is good execution, something the last trilogy didn't provide, but from what they've revealed of their story so far is mostly ideas that are rehashes of what's already been done. The characters they've revealed so far are copies of characters from all six movies. They've had developer videos discussing the storyline, but they've only gone into the backstory. The armor and ship designs are similar to their past iterations.

#67
Elhanan

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Anathemic wrote...

Did you read my post throroughly? Yes it's my opinion, however I based my opinion on facts.

Outstanding QA and support? Yeah maybe from like 10 years ago, show me the QA + support in the recent 3-4 years, times change buddy.


Perhaps a remedial course in Facts is required; certainly is recommended.

As for current on-going support, the on-going Patch work for DAO, DAA, and DA2 is offered:

http://social.biowar...8/index/7137421

#68
Elhanan

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Capt. Obvious wrote...
[
That's just lowering one's standards. The prequel storyline may have lacked execution, but it was technically the best and most original of the universe, because it wasn't just a Jedi vs. Sith plot. There was a lot more going on that the expanded universe elaborated on. What people want from BioWare is good execution, something the last trilogy didn't provide, but from what they've revealed of their story so far is mostly ideas that are rehashes of what's already been done. The characters they've revealed so far are copies of characters from all six movies. They've had developer videos discussing the storyline, but they've only gone into the backstory. The armor and ship designs are similar to their past iterations.


Of course ships and design go back into the past; kinda makes sense as it is based on an illustrated culture already seen.

My bet is on those that gave us KOTOR and DAO for stories. And I do not need to know everything about a story before I see it for myself; YMMV.

#69
Anathemic

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Maverick827 wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

Yes it's my opinion, however I based my opinion on facts.


Amazingly real an unarguable facts, such as:

Look at all the past MMOs such as Everquest. Does Everquest have an awesome story? Hell no. Let's look at recent one, World of Warcraft. Does World of Warcraft have an awesome story? Hell no. Let's look at a current one whose doing fairly well, Rift. Does Rift have an awesome story? Currently, hell no.

Fact of the matter is that at least 90% of the MMO playerbase don't give a rat's ass about story, sorry that's the truth.

But down the road when you're a few levels from level cap and seen the same damn move 10,000+ times (and this is way below the number of what you will realistically see) it will get pretty boring fast, garunteed.

because I don't have any statistics on character stats or whatever

PvP, ****ing slow and clunky as hell.

And on a sidenote, bounty hunter animations look retarded.

Please just take your terrible amrchair game developing and leave.


Yeah it's all in my opinion, however said facts are shown as I will explain below:

Fact 1: MMORPGs live on gameplay and content
Fact 2: The majority of the MMORPG playerbase doesn't care about story

#70
Guest_Capt. Obvious_*

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Elhanan wrote...

Capt. Obvious wrote...
[
That's just lowering one's standards. The prequel storyline may have lacked execution, but it was technically the best and most original of the universe, because it wasn't just a Jedi vs. Sith plot. There was a lot more going on that the expanded universe elaborated on. What people want from BioWare is good execution, something the last trilogy didn't provide, but from what they've revealed of their story so far is mostly ideas that are rehashes of what's already been done. The characters they've revealed so far are copies of characters from all six movies. They've had developer videos discussing the storyline, but they've only gone into the backstory. The armor and ship designs are similar to their past iterations.


Of course ships and design go back into the past; kinda makes sense as it is based on an illustrated culture already seen.

My bet is on those that gave us KOTOR and DAO for stories. And I do not need to know everything about a story before I see it for myself; YMMV.



It's over 3,000 years before the movies. It doesn't need to look the same. BioWare is aiming to make their game look familiar to the casual fan, but they sacrifice originality in doing so. Partly why I'm skeptical of the project.

#71
Maverick827

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Anathemic wrote...

Yeah it's all in my opinion, however said facts are shown as I will explain below:

Fact 1: MMORPGs live on gameplay and content
Fact 2: The majority of the MMORPG playerbase doesn't care about story

I don't think you really understand what "explain" or "fact" means, to be honest.

#72
Chromie

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Anathemic wrote...
Fact 1: MMORPGs live on gameplay and content
Fact 2: The majority of the MMORPG playerbase doesn't care about story


Dude, so not fact. I have played WoW for four years just stopped back in Feburary. WoW between it's content patches never did offer much variety. Yes it's bigger then any game out but that's because it's community is huge. If TOR maanges to get at least 500k subs, which I believe is what they need to just break even, then it should be successful enough to stand on it's own. I think Eve has somewhere around 650k not entirely sure. 

And "Fact 2" just seems like something pulled out of your ass. There is a huge amount of interest for the game they know story is what Bioware is focusing on most. Be it our class story, world story or companions story to say people don't care about story is just a gross overstatement. 

#73
Elhanan

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Capt. Obvious wrote...

It's over 3,000 years before the movies. It doesn't need to look the same. BioWare is aiming to make their game look familiar to the casual fan, but they sacrifice originality in doing so. Partly why I'm skeptical of the project.


Sorry; not Sherlock here, and thought you meant 300 yrs after KOTOR where Bioware practiced such designs. As far as species. that would seem to remain fairly similar as a rule, too.

#74
Elhanan

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Another perspective within Bioware:





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSvswG-9zCA&feature=related

#75
Anathemic

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I'm just gonna pull out some charts here

Image IPB

Image IPB

Now, in all seriousness. Do you really think SW:TOR will enter the competitive MMO market or fall in the niche with under 1 million subs?