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[Shadow of Light Dragon]

For ease of comparison, compiled endgame notes. Feel free to bring up additional points or things I might have missed (with references if possible).

This post aims to be as objective as possible. Discussion, observations and logical possibilities are welcome. Statements of fact that something happened which is not explicitly backed up by the game itself will not be seriously considered (this includes 'logical deduction'. Logical deduction results in a possibility, not a certainty).

TEMPLARS
Cinematic
Cullen and templars bow to the Champion.

Epilogue Book:
Word of the slaughter spread quickly.
The Champion's name became a rallying cry for all mages, a reminder of their brutal oppression.
He had shown not only what the templars were willing to do, but that they could be defied.
The Circles rose up and set the world on fire.
Here at home, the city all but got down on its hands and knees and begged the Champion to rule.
As for the rest of us---etc etc

Epilogue Dialogue:
Cassandra: But the Champion isn't in Kirkwall any more?
Varric: So I hear! Isn't it surprising how quickly fortunes change?

Varric to Cassandra: You've already lost all the Circles. In fact, haven't the templars rebelled as well?

Cassandra: [Hawke is] a man the templars respect.

Link to Templar Endgame

MAGES
Cinematic
Cullen backs away from the Champion. Templars allow the party to leave the Gallows.

Epilogue Book:
Word of the slaughter spread quickly.
The Champion's name became a rallying cry, a reminder the mighty templars could be defied.
He had defended the mages against a brutal injustice and many lived to tell the tale.
The Circles rose up and set the world on fire.
More templars arrived at Kirkwall to restore order, but we were already long gone.
We vanished into the hills, and circumstance eventually---etc etc

Epilogue Dialogue:
Varric to Cassandra: You've already lost all the Circles. In fact, haven't the templars rebelled as well?

Cassandra: [Hawke is] a man the mages will listen to.

Link to Mage Endgame

Notable Companion Reactions
Anders
Anders will blow up the Chantry regardless of your standing with him or choices you have made throughout the game. You will get to decide whether to kill him, let him go, or have him come with you after deciding whether you are siding with the templars or mages.

If Anders is a Friend, he will refuse to come with you if you side with the templars, limiting your choices to killing him or letting him go.

If Anders is a Rival he will agree to come with you if you side with the templars, though it is implied in his final talk to the PC that he will kill himself after this is over.

If you side with the templars and let Anders go, he will confront you in the courtyard of the Circle Tower. After a bit of dialogue, he will attack you and you will be forced to kill him. There is no special cinemat

If you side with the mages and let Anders go, he will confront you in the Gallows and ask that you let him help you. If you refuse he will wish you well and leave. If you accept he will be a party member once again.

Fenris
If you side with the mages and you do not have Fenris maxed in Friendship or Rivalry, after a brief dialogue he will leave your party. You will encounter him later at the Gallows with some templars, and there will be dialogue which decides whether or not he will attack you. Asking him if he wishes for the mages to suffer the kind of slavery he did in Tevinter will result in him rejoining you.

Merrill
If you side with the templars, do not keep Anders in the party, and you do not have Merrill maxed in Friendship or Rivalry, she will abandon you. She will reappear later with a group of mages and, after some dialogue, attack you. You will be forced to kill her. **(Can she rejoin the party like Fenris can? Need confirmation.)

Aveline
If you side with the mages, have Aveline as a rival, and Fenris has NOT turned against you (or is not an available party member), Aveline will oppose your decision and abandon you. She will reappear later during a cutscene in which she and her guards are ordered by the templars to attack you, but after a bit of dialogue she will refuse, throw down her sword and leave, abandoning the fight for good.

Sebastian
If you spared Anders' life, Sebastian will leave the group in protest and swear retribution for what Anders did.

Meredith Battle Notes
Lintanis advises the following:

• You Can have up to 8 allies active in final battle with Meredith
  
• Hawke and the 3 selected members of the party (Dog counts as ally if active)
  
• Other allies join in the battle as Meredith's health drops. In order (if not in Party): Bethany, Carver, Varric, Anders, Avenline, Fenris, Isabela and Sebastian
  
• Additional Cameos include Donnic (if long Road completed and have Aveline in party), Zevran (A Murder of Crows), Nathaniel (Finding Nathaniel).

Observations of Interest

• Meredith invokes the Right of Annulment. With the death of the Grand Cleric she is legally allowed to do this. The Right calls for the death of all mages within a Circle, although Tranquillity is a secondary option for survivors.
  
• Orsino had a pretty large entourage of mages with him in Hightown. Considering the templars had been reportedly keeping mages confined to their rooms, it’s an apparent testimony to Orsino’s influence (or the laxity of some of their templar guards) that he got out of the Gallows with as much support as he did (including Bethany, if she joined the Circle).
  
• If you side with the templars, Meredith does not demand Anders’ death despite, well, everything.
  
• If you side with the mages, rather than defending the front gates of the Circle Tower you defend Orsino in the Templar Hall. You don’t even get all the mages to retreat to this relatively defendable position, as in both scenarios you get a cinematic of the templars breaking down the Tower’s front door and charging in, killing mages left right and centre.
  
• If you side with the mages, no matter how good you are at defending the mages in the Templar Hall, there are *always* dead mages on the ground for his Harvester ritual. If you sided with the templars, Orsino claims the dead were ‘willing sacrifices’. Bethany is never one of the dead.
  
• If you side with the mages, Orsino will mention Quentin’s research. Hawke only gets a chance to mention Quentin’s connection to the death of his/her mother if you side with the templars.
  
• If you sided with the mages, when Orsino becomes the Harvester you can see a number of mages fleeing the chamber. Templars too.
  
• If you side with the templars, a trio of mages can beg Hawke for mercy. Meredith calls for their deaths. Cullen can offer his opinion that the mages who can be saved should be. Hawke may spare them, order their deaths, or defer to Meredith’s wishes (death). If Hawke spares them, Cullen orders the templars to obey the Champion’s orders; Meredith is visibly infuriated at being defied but says nothing. If Hawke orders their deaths or defers to Meredith, the mages are killed on the spot.
  
• If you side with the templars and Bethany is a Circle Mage, Meredith will call for her execution. Hawke can allow this or refuse. If you allow it, Meredith says she will 'secure the keep', implying she and the templars sweep through the tower. If you do not allow it, Meredith merely says she will meet you in the courtyard. There is no reaction to Bethany if she is a Grey Warden.
  
• If you side with the templars, Hawke reportedly rules as Viscount for two years before leaving Kirkwall.
  
• If you side with the mages and Carver is a Templar, he will defy Meredith's orders to kill Hawke and stand between her and you. Cullen will join him straight after. Meredith will brand them both traitors.
  
• If Bethany or Carver joined the Grey Wardens, they will reappear shortly after you decided between the mages and templars and offer to join you again as a companion. Their dialogues will differ slightly depending on who you are fighting for.
  
• Regardless of who you side with, Hawke shows that the templars can be defied and the Circles ‘set the world on fire’. Varric and Cassandra imply in both cases that the Chantry has lost the Circles, and that even the templars have rebelled. In both cases, Hawke’s name becomes a rallying cry for one reason or another.
  
• Despite the fact there is still a significant templar presence in Kirkwall and the Gallows, if you side with the mages many of them still manage to ‘live to tell the tale’. The pro-Templar ending makes no mention of mage survivors in Kirkwall, but neither does it confirm all the mages were slain.
  
• There is no mention at all of what is done with the lyrium idol/Meredith.
  
• Knight Captain Cullen lives, but there is no mention of what role he plays after Meredith’s death.
  
• There is no mention of whether the Right of Annulment is fully carried out once Hawke leaves Kirkwall/becomes Viscount, though Varric’s sequence suggests mages everywhere equate Hawke’s name to ‘brutal oppression’ irregardless of whether you spared the trio of mages.
  
• ElvaliaRavenHart brings up the point that if Alistair is King of Ferelden, there was (still is?) a ship in Kirkwall that was offering passage to Fereldans who want to return. There is a possibility that some mages might have escaped via this path.

Role-playing and DA2’s ending

Siding with the mages does not give you a lot of options. No sooner has Hawke defeated Meredith than you flee the city. According to Varric many mages escape as well, despite there still being a strong templar presence in Kirkwall and more templars arriving soon after the slaughter. For all we know, mages who remain in the city are hunted and killed when Hawke runs, or are locked back up in the tower.

Siding with the templars seems to provide more role-playing options. It is unclear whether the Circle Tower is fully purged by the time Hawke fights Meredith. There is evidence that some mages surrender and can be spared at Hawke’s word, but it is not seen whether they are kept in custody for later, cut loose, able to escape, or made Tranquil. In this ending the templars are seen bowing to Hawke, and Varric says the whole city basically begs the Champion to rule (the epilogue does not give Hawke the chance to accept or deny rulership and you gain the Achievement 'Become Viscount' at this point. It is further suggested by Varric that Hawke stays in Kirkwall until ‘fortunes change’). The authority Hawke apparently receives in this endgame implies the Champion could rein the templars in and prevent further mage deaths in the city if s/he so chose, or continue the mage cull. Either way, Hawke’s name becomes synonymous with brutal oppression (s/he *did* side with a Knight Commander who called for the Right of Annulment).

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 17 juillet 2011 - 12:38 .

[Fast Jimmy]

"In this ending the templars are seen bowing to Hawke, and Varric says the whole city basically begs the Champion to rule (the epilogue does not explicitly say whether Hawke accepts, but it is suggested s/he stays in Kirkwall until ‘fortunes change’)."

For what it is worth, in the 360 version, when you get to this point, an "Achievement Unlocked" screen pops up saying you have Achieved "Become the Viscount" so this may be taken as proof that the Viscount title was taken up by Hawke?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Ah, I forgot about the Achievements. I will note that this pops up, thanks!

[Big I]

Perhaps you'd like to add:

1) The sibling reunion

2) The last companion/romance conversations

3) The cameos who help you fight Meredith

[LobselVith8]

Should it be noted that Leliana suspects that Hawke's disappearance is tied to The Warden's disappearance?

[In Exile]

It may be that DA2 DLC has Hawke going beyond the Fade as well.

[LivelyLaughter]

I so do not like the way the role playing works at the end...it seems rather sneaky, deceptive, undermined, and confusing; especially if you want to side with the mages to help keep them from being oppressed.

It's like saying you have to be deceptive and turn your back on everything your character stood for, only to be underhanded and backstabbing again.

I like a game that makes you think, but the end choices go to far beyond that...what the heck was Bioware and the Dragon Age team thinking!?!?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Added:

# If you side with the templars and Bethany is a Circle Mage, Meredith will call for her execution. Hawke can allow this or refuse. If you allow it, Meredith says she will 'secure the keep', implying she and the templars sweep through the tower. If you do not allow it, Meredith merely says she will meet you in the courtyard.

# If you side with the mages and Carver is a Templar, he will defy Meredith's orders to kill Hawke and stand between her and you. Cullen will join him straight after. Meredith will brand them both traitors.
--------

@LivelyLaughter: I agree with disliking how the end was presented. It's hard to say whether our endgames in Kirkwall result in one of two extremes (mages running amok vs. mages killed/tranquilised) or deliberately vague to accommodate the various personalities of Hawke. And the effect on the world (Circles lost + templars rebelling) happens no matter what. To be honest I am a little tired of vague finales. They are more tiresome hooks for a follow-up than satisfying climaxes...

@In Exile: Can you back that up please?

@LobselVith8: Not unless you think it has something to do with the mage/templar situation. Does Leliana say it's 'no coincidence' no matter whether Hawke was Viscount or fled into the hills straight after the final battle?

@LookingGlass93: I've noted Carver and Bethany as Templar and Mage. I don't think anything happens if they are Grey Wardens (can anyone verify if Meredith threatens GW Bethany?). The cameos don't really matter IMO, they are nice but have no bearing on the endgame story. I should get around to adding something about the companions who can turn against you depending on who you side with, though...

[Lintanis]

Fenris(mages),Anders(templars),Aveline will leave only if Fenris doesnt(mages) and Merrill(templars) will turn against you at the end if Rivals only Aveline wont attack 

*Can have upto 8 allies active in final battle with Meredith

*Hawke and the 3 Selected members of the party (dog counts as ally if active)

*Other allies join in the battle as Meredith's health drops. In order (if not in Party) Bethany,Carver,Varric,Anders,Avenline,Fenris,Isabela and Sebastian

*Additional Cameos:
Donnic(if long Road completed and have Aveline in party)
Zevran (A Murder of Crows)
Nathaniel (Finding Nathaniel)

Modifié par Lintanis, 11 mai 2011 - 08:43 .

[highcastle]

LivelyLaughter wrote...

I so do not like the way the role playing works at the end...it seems rather sneaky, deceptive, undermined, and confusing; especially if you want to side with the mages to help keep them from being oppressed.

It's like saying you have to be deceptive and turn your back on everything your character stood for, only to be underhanded and backstabbing again.

I like a game that makes you think, but the end choices go to far beyond that...what the heck was Bioware and the Dragon Age team thinking!?!?

I'm a little confused by your confusion. You're upset that if you have a character who wants to be viscount, but also wants to stand up to the templars, you can't? That's how consequences work. If you believe the mages are "good" or righteous or at least less wrong than the templars, than your PC has to sacrifice his own ambitions to do the right thing. I think it's a powerful moment, actually. My first and canon Hawke had been angling for the throne, but as a mage and a mage-supporter, he had to flush that dream down the toilet to do what he thought was right. It wasn't easy, but sometimes the right choices aren't easy.

[Aigyl]

Nice comparison!

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
@LookingGlass93: I've noted Carver and Bethany as Templar and Mage. I don't think anything happens if they are Grey Wardens (can anyone verify if Meredith threatens GW Bethany?).

I can confirm on the Templar side at least that GW Bethany doesn't interact with Meredith or Orsino in any way. She's uncomfortable after the Harvester battle (says something along the lines of "Lets go. I don't want to be here anymore"), that's about it.

[Kenshen]

If Carver went to the GW's he can't believe you would side with a crazy Meredith and seems rather angery at you for it but will join you cause you are the only family he has left. If you side with the mages he is all cool with it and is eager to aid his sister/brother in the fight. Talk about doing a 180 from earlier in the game. I had him closer to friend than rival but the bar was mostly in the middle for me. Not sure if this has any affect or not.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

If you side with the mages, therein lies the possibility that they ran to Ferelden since Alistair brings a ship for any Ferelden that wants to return. If I was a mage escaping and had heard about a ship I'd run like mad to get to that ship. Given that King Alistair rescued three mages which Meredith didn't appreciate. I wonder who these three mages actually where? The game didn't say. I haven't done an import with Anora as Queen and how this plays out.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Thanks for the suggestions guys!

I've included a companions section covering (currently) Anders, Fenris, Merrill, Aveline and Sebastian, and notes for the Meredith final battle and who can pitch in to help. Also added a note about GW Bethany and Carver, and the possibility that King Alistair's ship might still be in Kirkwall.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Edited.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Are you sure about Fenris? In my first playthrough, I did not max his friendship / rivalry (or come anywhere close), and he left for the templars, only to abandon them after a dialog in the chantry courtyard, iirc. I had romanced him previously, but dumped him for Anders, which may be what lead to this difference in experience.

[Marduksdragon]

Thank you for posting this. It makes me even more curious now that I read them word for word side by side. They're so... nebulous beyond the circles and the Templars rebelling.

I think a big thing we have to keep in mind is whatever happens it has to get us all to the same place in the end because they can't make several games for us. Some outcomes make more sense than others. Everyone likes playing mages pretty much and Templars are a great fighter class, so I doubt they'd disappear entirely from the game in some kind of holocaust event either way.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 09 juillet 2011 - 03:05 .

[In Exile]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
@In Exile: Can you back that up please?

I just saw this, months later. It was all speculation on my part. The Warden vanishes no matter what... but if we play Witch Hunt, the Warden specifically vanishes by going after Morrigain. My wager is that Bioware will lead everyone beyond the fade one way or another.

[DRTJR]

If you Bring up you helped Fenris with his Slave masters he will go back to your side.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Thank you DRTJR. Everything is illuminated

[Macropodmum]

DRTJR wrote...

If you Bring up you helped Fenris with his Slave masters he will go back to your side.

I'm not sure this is true, I stood by Fenris in each case of fights against slavers and Danarius only to have him stand with the templars at the end and ended with me having to kick his butt.  I'm guessing it had more to do with where the friendship bar was (I didn't romance him).

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

You guys who are having differing situations with Fenris -- Is Aveline still in your party or did she leave you?

I have not done this scene myself (yet), so relying on info from others.

[DRTJR]

I believe it's either A star option or where one would be but I have always had fenris as My wingman

[Macropodmum]

Aveline stood with me but made a comment about my knowing how to test a friendship. I don't remember if she did this before or after Fenris said he could not support me.

Edit: Varric and Merrill also stood with me and Isabella had left me previously after the book fiasco with the Qun.  After Anders blew the chantry I didn't want his help at all and sent him packing.

Modifié par Macropodmum, 10 juillet 2011 - 05:26 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Ok, thanks. I'll put a note next to Fenris' section saying further confirmation is required for now.