164 réponses à ce sujet

[Sparrow44]

Dave666 wrote...

See, now thats why I asked it, I suspected that you'd be honest and admit it which you did, what I've been asking for is simply this:

The dificulty or ease of the game should not be determined by which class you choose, otherwise whats the point in a dificulty slider?  Each class should find the hardest setting in the game a challenge but in different ways. Defences stop Biotics?  Fine, then make the damage reduction penalty greater on Combat classes than on Caster ones to compensate.  A blanket -X% to all weapon damage for all classes just doesn't cut it when Combat classes have stronger weapons and bonuses to weapon damage in their Passives.  Their damage output after that -X% is still far greater than the Caster classes basic damage even if they recieved no reduction.

Not sure what you're talking about, but Soldier is OP'd on any difficulty because it doesn't rely on powers or the need to strip defenses and doesn't really face any challenge whatsoever on Insanity but that wasn't my point.

If you actually read any of TST's posts about Insanity and Adepts you'd have a better understanding of the joke.

Modifié par Sparroww, 07 mai 2011 - 08:41 .

[Dave666]

Sparroww wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

See, now thats why I asked it, I suspected that you'd be honest and admit it which you did, what I've been asking for is simply this:

The dificulty or ease of the game should not be determined by which class you choose, otherwise whats the point in a dificulty slider?  Each class should find the hardest setting in the game a challenge but in different ways. Defences stop Biotics?  Fine, then make the damage reduction penalty greater on Combat classes than on Caster ones to compensate.  A blanket -X% to all weapon damage for all classes just doesn't cut it when Combat classes have stronger weapons and bonuses to weapon damage in their Passives.  Their damage output after that -X% is still far greater than the Caster classes basic damage even if they recieved no reduction.

Not sure what you're talking about, but Soldier is OP'd on any difficulty because it doesn't rely on powers or the need to strip defenses and doesn't really face any challenge whatsoever on Insanity but that wasn't my point.

If you actually read any of TST's posts about Insanity and Adepts you'd have a better understanding of the joke.

I read his post and while I disagree with the way he phrased it, I do agree with the sentiment.  The Infiltrator with a Widow or the Vangard with a Claymore are much the same as the Soldier, they don't need to strip defences, its helpful, but not necessary.  Talking about the basic enemies there btw not the elites.

[Bozorgmehr]

Dave666 wrote...

The dificulty or ease of the game should not be determined by which class you choose, otherwise whats the point in a dificulty slider?  Each class should find the hardest setting in the game a challenge but in different ways.

ME2's difficulty increase only requires players to use each class to its fullest effect. The only difference is that some classes require a little more practice to get the most out of their abilities. Soldiers can shoot and shoot in bullet-time, they are the most straight forward class and therefore relatively easy to play. Soldier is the default class and it's the most easy and friendly way to get to know ME2's combat system, one of its purposes is to introduce new players to the ME universe. I don't see what's wrong with this.

[Sparrow44]

Insanity isn't perfect in ME2, but it's light-years better than ME1 and doesn't ruin the overall experience at least when playing an Adept.

Hopefully ME3 features an Improvement.

[Bozorgmehr]

Yeah, and I rather have them using ME2's system as baseline, not ME1's.

[Evercrow]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Ultai wrote...

The only way to help in that regard is to improve the AI of the enemy,

Enemy placement, enemy arrangement, enemy quantity, altered cover arrangement, etc.

There are quite a few ways to alter difficulty. Stats are just the easiest to change.

And do you imagine how much more time that will take?
Bigger amount of enemies could screw up ammo management(one additional wave is acceptable, but i think it already implemented in some cases), so that players would be forced to collect them under fire, which could prove unnecessary frustrating.
"Enemy arrangement" and placement are pretty much all part of AI, and you could make it only more aggresive with higher difficulty, not "smarter".The tactical aspects, such as flanking and overall teamwork should be present on normal difficulty already.
Altered cover would demand redesigning a level and store as different file.

Why put so much effort into something half of players won't even play? I prefer devs concentrate on other things.

 The Insanity difficulty, aside from conventional stats altering, is basically a set of restricting rules that
player agree with(or applies to himself), similar to "hardcore" rule in
Fallout, where saving becames a luxury.Only BW do it more forgivingly -
presenting a challenge, but not making it excruciating.I don't see a problem here

[termokanden]

aimlessgun wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

 I'll be honest, *snip*

ME2 insanity was a masterpiece of tuning: challenging but not frustrating for the 1st couple playthroughs. The only problem is that it gets too easy afterwards, making me wish for an unlockable SuperInsanity mode.

That to me is a sign that it was done right. Because if it gets too easy after a while, that is a good indication that the difficulty actually has to do with learning the game, not with circumstances beyond the player's control.

Now what I think we need for ME3 is a bit more balance and tuning of some powers. In short, the main  suggestions I have is to make the early game for casters a bit better (I think maybe this is why people complain about casters - they do get WAY better late in the game) and to retune some bad powers (for example Fortification, Concussive Shot, Inferno Grenade) and weapons. I hesitate to say soldiers should be toned down, because I honestly think some people like the soldier the way it is, and maybe that's actually OK.

Modifié par termokanden, 07 mai 2011 - 09:21 .

[Dave666]

Sparroww wrote...

Insanity isn't perfect in ME2, but it's light-years better than ME1 and doesn't ruin the overall experience at least when playing an Adept.

Hopefully ME3 features an Improvement.

See, now I agree with you and Boz.  ME:2 was in my opinion an improvement, but I still feel it was a bit flawed.  In regards to the Soldier being easier to play to ease people into the game...

If we were talking about the Soldier being easy to play on Normal dificulty then I would have no issue, but a class shouldn't trivialize the hardest setting in the game just to ease people in.  Thats what Normal and Casual dificulties are for.  Insanity should be just as much of a challenge to a Soldier as it is to say an Adept.  If you're playing on Insanity, you don't need easing in.

That said, while I agree that adding protections also added some (small) level of tactics, I still hope that in ME:3 the Heavy versions of powers will be able to breach defences, but only on a single target and the cooldown should be longer than the Area version to prevent spamming it on everything.

[Black Raptor]

Insanity was fine for any class not using biotics.
Using infiltrator, Miranda and Grunt (Tali and Grunt for geth) as squad members and assassination cloak along with the Widow made it a breeze.

Just wiggle side to side in cover if a Harbinger shoots that black missile thing at you. That way it misses.

[The Spamming Troll]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Yeah, and I rather have them using ME2's system as baseline, not ME1's.

nobody wants ME1s insanity, why even bring it up? nobody wants to see insanity being something whether its an enemy HP boost(ME1) or one that makes you shoot more(ME2). which are the same thing. would a loading screen be better if you rode down in an elevator(ME1), or watched a picture of you going down an elevator(ME2)?

if ME3 has protections working in the eact way they are in ME2, i dont think ill be alone in my dissapointment.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 07 mai 2011 - 09:31 .

[Waltzingbear]

Dave while the Soldier requires the least amount of conscious learning when going into higher difficulties you can't say that the Soldier is overpowered, or at least you can't say that the Soldier class is doing better than the others once the player is skilled enough with the class he's playing.

You might say that 'it is too easy to learn' the Soldier and that the first transition to Hardcore doesn't require much from him, but that's another subject.

[Ydrian]

From my point of view this discussion has reached some bad point by now. Maybe its just my thoughts but i think it should be understood a little different.

At first: Of course the insanity mode is beatable be every class and isnt even too hard if you know what your doing. For some it might not even be a patience test, since carefully controlling enemys from far behind cover, letting your squaddis do the damage, might just be your favored playstyle.

But the depressing fact is some classes just have to be used drasticly different than on normal difficulty settings. The 2 classes i found easiest to play harder difficultys with were soldier and infiltrator. The reason for that is their role is beeing to shoot things as hard as possible in their face on every difficulty. When you like doing that, every difficulty is just great.

Other classes must reduce their pace drasticly going from "dd" to "cc" in order to beat higher difficultys. While that isnt harder than playing soldier i think the "soul" of the class goes missing. If you are the "magician" kind of guy who wants to launch people flying around the battlefield, adept on lower difficultys is just fine. But this doesnt work on insanity. At that point one might realise the new playstyle needed to beat this difficulty is not what they like and they stop playing or claim the difficulty to hard.

You just dont have to change your playstyle as much playing infiltrator or soldier and so it might "feel" easier then all other classes.

As for me being said "magician" guy i didnt like the pace you had to go on insanity. To make better hardmodes for guys like me it would take a mechanic allowing non-weapon powers to somehow bypass armor. i thought of like a 75% decrease in effect and duration per armor level penetrated. While it would still be harder on harder difficultys this would propably lead to classes like the adapt not loosing their "dd" feel on higher difficultys. That way i wouldnt have been disappointed with insanity at all!

Modifié par Ydrian, 08 mai 2011 - 01:53 .

[Nashiktal]

I agree with the OP, and I think some people are missing the point. I have no trouble at all with insanity. In fact, after playing insanity it is the only mode I play in if I am not doing a speed run to prepare for ME3.

However there were some points in the game that just made me shake my head. If I play an adept, I have to rely on my squadmates to let me use my powers effectively. However, squadmates, while improved from ME1, still has a long way to go if Bioware wants to make them "essential" to certain classes.

The issues with squadmates, coupled with a few cheesy enemies (Like the praetorian. That enemy is either extremely hard, or laughably easy due to circling tactics.) scions, and harbinger with his cover break ability can make insanity annoying instead of fun.

If they are to make the game more difficult. I would prefer improved AI, more enemies, and better enemy "combo's."

[Waltzingbear]

Adepts don't actually gain more from squadmates than other classes; it's only more noticeable because you focus on that juicy red bar, instead of just shooting things and not giving any notice to how effective your squadmates can be like you do with other classes.

Adepts can do fine by their own, they just shoot more and not hang in cover. Watch a few Arrival runs if you don't believe me.

I agree about the boss type enemies, and I believe that we will see an improvement in that respect with mechanics like The Shadow Broker and different effects from shooting different parts of the enemy that we've heard about.

I don't agree about Harbinger though. The cover buster ability actually prevented you from just staying in cover and it was an improvement not a flaw. It is also fairly easy to dodge (if you don't know how you got something to learn).

[Nashiktal]

Waltzingbear wrote...

Adepts don't actually gain more from squadmates than other classes; it's only more noticeable because you focus on that juicy red bar, instead of just shooting things and not giving any notice to how effective your squadmates can be like you do with other classes.

Adepts can do fine by their own, they just shoot more and not hang in cover. Watch a few Arrival runs if you don't believe me.

I agree about the boss type enemies, and I believe that we will see an improvement in that respect with mechanics like The Shadow Broker and different effects from shooting different parts of the enemy that we've heard about.

I don't agree about Harbinger though. The cover buster ability actually prevented you from just staying in cover and it was an improvement not a flaw. It is also fairly easy to dodge (if you don't know how you got something to learn).

I disagree. While you can dodge harbingers cover buster, if you are calling it easy you don't play insanity. Certain levels have very sparse cover, and moving out of cover, even as a soldier, can be deadly in open fields. Especially if harbinger is around while fighting scions.

[Waltzingbear]

Take a look at this, there are a few helpful tips there, and I quote one that describe it well:
"If you strafe left and right while in cover, almost all of Harbinger's attacks will miss you, including the slow shot that knocks you out of cover, even at point blank."

I tried to find a video on Youtube that demonstrate it but I couldn't find any.

Basically it will predict your route and move to where you will be when it is supposed to reach you. What you need to do, even in cover, is to move to one direction so it will try to preempt you, and then move to the other before it reaches you.

There is no need to try and prove me that it can't be done. This discussion is getting off-topic as is.
If you still think it's impossible though, tell me what fight you are talking about and I'd be glad to test it.

[AK404]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...
I think the problem has less to do with the game and more with you wanting to get all the achievements.
Are they really that important?
ME2's Insanity achievement doesn't even offer any benefits.

No, but when I first saw that "complete the game on Insanity" achievement, my first thought was "Hey, I'm game, sounds like fun!"
And then you're neck-deep in, hating every minute of it, but too stubborn to call it quits, so you soldier through anyway. I just want the "sounds like fun!" thought to be answered with actual fun, is that so much to ask?

I would imagine that nearly every Little League player in the world would love to play against the pros in the MLB.  That doesn't mean they're ready for it: they wouldn't even be able to handle a fastball from a high schooler, much less a world-class player.  It takes time to get to that level, and when you do, you're somehow back at the beginning all over again.  With enough work and practice, you'll beat Insanity, there's no question about that.
"Fun" and "challenging" are quite subjective terms.  When I first started playing ME2, fun was simply popping heads off with a sniper rifle.  Then I got bored with that, then moved onto the fun of positioning my squadmates into aggressive flanking maneuvers and grinding my teeth as my well-laid plans failed in seconds.  After that, I moved onto to mastering specific stages, making battles that used to be nail-biters into trivial stepping stones, then moved on to studying the capabilities of my squadmates, figuring out why I needed whom for whatever mission.
Now, I'm trying to scope in on targets and place headshots on critical targes as quick as possible.  Funny how that works.

[CajNatalie]

No matter how awful ME1's Insanity was with its Immunity-spamming enemies... the way each class played was always the same <- this consistency of class experience is what's needed for ME3's Insanity mode.

Soldiers shot things until they died, while being the best at taking fire.
Engineers would play smart and mess the enemies up to your advantage.
Adepts would make the enemies fly and flail - to much hilarity sometimes.
Infiltrators would be sniping then moving in and playing smart but more aggressively than an Engineer.
Sentinels would be using their powers to the limit - the battlefield their plaything despite otherwise low combat skills.
Vanguards would rush in, throw stuff around, and then shoot someone in the ass.

There was no 'rock paper scissors' to suddenly handicap a class and force them to play at suboptimal performance.
If you like to be an Engineer, and want to be challenged using an Engineer playstyle then you'd flip on Insanity and enjoy the burn.
If you like to be a Vanguard, and want to be challenged by using a Vanguard playstyle then... you know the rest.

I find myself enjoying Mass Effect 1's Insanity a hell of a lot because I get to play my class to their fullest potential.
For example: my favorite class is Vanguard... I can still rush in and get my shields blown while planting shot in a merc's ass and enjoy it. Then turn around and do some crowd control with my biotics to reduce the amount of fire I'm taking before making my next move. No difference than on lower difficulties, except that I have to be more aware of my HP and shields than ever.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 08 mai 2011 - 04:43 .

[AK404]

I'd have to agree on ME1...except for the "Marksman makes pistols OP" thing. Once you got that with an Infiltrator, screw sniping, just pop Immunity, pop Marksman, blow stuff up. And on the Vanguard? Pop Barrier, pop Marksman, blow stuff up. And the Soldier...?

You get the point.

[Hathur]

While I'm not a fan of insanity mode just being enemies have 2x more health and do 2x more damage, I still didn't find insanity mode overly difficult.. and it was the first difficulty I played the game at.

Frankly if they can't make insanity mode harder by just making smarter AI, I'd still take the lame more health + more damage for enemies on insanity over just playing on an easier difficulty. Normal, Veteran and even hardcore are almost unplayable for me because the combat is agonizingly easily & boring (regardless of class).

I feel like I'm cheating when I play on normal or veteran, I cannot fathom how people play it unless it's purely to enjoy the story (which I can fully appreciate)... but if one is playing to enjoy the gameplay, even the lame insanity mode of ME2 is infinitely better (more fun) than the bore-fest of lower difficulties.

[CajNatalie]

AK404 wrote...

I'd have to agree on ME1...except for the "Marksman makes pistols OP" thing. Once you got that with an Infiltrator, screw sniping, just pop Immunity, pop Marksman, blow stuff up. And on the Vanguard? Pop Barrier, pop Marksman, blow stuff up. And the Soldier...?

You get the point.

Well considering how they killed pistols in ME2, I'm not going to complain about Marksman.

I would dearly love to see Pistols restored to glory on par with the Assault Rifle again... or near enough to make them a viable alternative.
It had advantages and disadvantages compared to the Assault Rifle in ME1... now it's all disadvantages... sub-machineguns are even worse.
I sometimes have to overheat an SMG to capacity and pop a clip to do any significant damage with it.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 08 mai 2011 - 04:51 .

[Bluefuse]

I'm in the middle of my ME1 playthrough from a fresh character on insanity now. I'm on Feros and did all the side missions first. I'm now lvl 47 as a soldier and I rape everything in seconds. Insanity is realy hard at first, but once you get great upgrades and get max immunity, armor, assault rifle, you then are unstoppable. Especially when you have Wrex to throw the guys that are charging at you and Tali hacking the geth that gets in the way.

It started getting really easy as soon as I hit lvl 30. That's around the time when you get some good upgrades to help out. At lvl 40, you can't be touched, especially with max immunity.

Modifié par Bluefuse, 08 mai 2011 - 05:28 .

[kstarler]

Personally, I feel the hallmark of a good "Highest Difficulty Setting" is that, with enough player skill and mastery, the game can be beaten in roughly the same amount of time as it can be beaten on Normal. In this regard, with the exception of bosses and mini-bosses, ME2 meets my criteria for a good "Highest Difficulty Setting." With the right squad, class skills, weapon load out, and player abilities, regular enemies can be killed just was quickly on Insanity as they can be on Normal. In the case of the Vanguard, they can actually be killed more quickly because they don't go flying away when you use Charge, which puts the player in optimal range for a Shotgun to the face/upper body.

Going into ME3, I'd like to see more flanking/aggressive enemies that will put pressure on the player to move around more (this has already been anounced as BioWare's intention), and I'd like to see "weaknesses" added to mini-boss/elites to allow for quicker take down based on player skill. For instance, one discussion of flanking bonuses elsewhere in the forum springs to mind, where shields and barriers could take more damage from the rear, since they'd likely be maximized for frontal shielding and thus weaker in back. Similarly, "chinks" could be added to enemy armor, allowing precise aiming to quickly strip it away (note that I am NOT endorsing quicktime events). As it is now, YMIR fights in particular do often feel more like endurance fights than battles of skill, especially since it is so easy to trick YMIRs into positions that allow the player to fire freely without any fear of being exposed to incoming fire.

EDIT: By the way, to those saying here and elsewhere that "class X has it easy on Insanity, but class Y is broken because it has a much harder time," I think the real discussion should be; is class Y really broken because it is more difficult, or is it class X that is broken, because it trivializes aspects of the hardest difficulty? Personally, I'd say it's class X that is broken.

Modifié par kstarler, 08 mai 2011 - 05:57 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Nashiktal wrote...

I disagree. While you can dodge harbingers cover buster, if you are calling it easy you don't play insanity. Certain levels have very sparse cover, and moving out of cover, even as a soldier, can be deadly in open fields. Especially if harbinger is around while fighting scions.

Dodging Harbingers Singularities is not related to difficulty and simply strafing left and right, regardless if you're behind cover or not, will suffice. Moving around and not using cover can be done with all classes on Insanity, but only if you know what you're doing - like it's supposed to be imo.

CajNatalie wrote...

No matter how awful ME1's Insanity was with its Immunity-spamming enemies... the way each class played was always the same <- this consistency of class experience is what's needed for ME3's Insanity mode.

I disagree, increasing difficulty should require player to raise his/her game also. ME2 does a decent job with the defense system (for some classes), without it things would be like ME1 where you use the same one or two skills to make yourself invincible or disable all enemies, ME1 Casual = ME1 Insanity, it only takes much longer to kill enemies on Insanity (making it tedious, not harder or more challenging).

ME2 Insanity is not tedious and any class can breeze through the game fast and fairly easy - again, considering they know how to use their respective abilities effectively. And that's a good thing. Difficulty settings are meant to give players the choice to play the game the way they want to. It's the exact same thing with other options; using a high-end pc will allow better graphics - a decent player enjoys combat best on Insanity whilst a casual player can have fun on Normal.

For me, games should be easy to play and (relatively) difficult to master. ME2 Insanity works like this (for some classes) which is good imo. Can it be improved? Yes, and it should - but the concept behind the ME2 approach is solid. Complicating things a bit >>> giving enemies more hitpoints.

[CajNatalie]

I disagree, increasing difficulty should require player to raise his/her game also. ME2 does a decent job with the defense system (for some classes), without it things would be like ME1 where you use the same one or two skills to make yourself invincible or disable all enemies, ME1 Casual = ME1 Insanity, it only takes much longer to kill enemies on Insanity (making it tedious, not harder or more challenging).

ME2 Insanity is not tedious and any class can breeze through the game fast and fairly easy - again, considering they know how to use their respective abilities effectively. And that's a good thing. Difficulty settings are meant to give players the choice to play the game the way they want to. It's the exact same thing with other options; using a high-end pc will allow better graphics - a decent player enjoys combat best on Insanity whilst a casual player can have fun on Normal.

For me, games should be easy to play and (relatively) difficult to master. ME2 Insanity works like this (for some classes) which is good imo. Can it be improved? Yes, and it should - but the concept behind the ME2 approach is solid. Complicating things a bit >>> giving enemies more hitpoints.

All right, that's true, but as you seem to be hinting at in with your 'some classes' parts, Insanity doesn't make the player have to raise their game equally for all classes.

It's hard to quantify what would be considered 'raising your game' for each class, so I wouldn't expect this to be easy to achieve at all, and very easy to screw up with, as they did in ME2.
Either the gun-centric classes have it too easy, or power-centric classes have it too hard. Doesn't matter which way it is, either way it's an imbalance in how some classes step up and others don't.

To be honest, what would probably be the best idea is have the highest two difficulty settings cause different changes according to the player's class. If they're going to avoid doing the 'more HP more damage' cop-out, it would be much easier to focus on each class individually and make sure their game is stepped up just the right way, as opposed to catering to them all at once. This further emphasizes the differences in experience with each class - each one will face a different form of hardcore/insane challenge.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 08 mai 2011 - 12:18 .