164 réponses à ce sujet

[CroGamer002]

Ringo12 wrote...

Mecher3k wrote...

Lol really? I find insanity to not be that tough at all.

This.

+1

[Ydrian]

im quite sick reading this kind of comments. This thread is not about insane being to hard but being imbalanced.

9 out of 10 people might either play soldier or infiltrator (which doesnt change their playstyle changing difficulty) or like to play careful and slow, utilizing team members perfectly.

This thread is for the 1 guy left who doesnt like taking so much time to set up a power like "Throw".

Following this discussion for just about a day brings me to the conclusion ME3 should
A: Change something with their "ability on armored targets" system
B: Forcing even weapon classes (maybe sniper in particular) to be more difficult by forcing them in risky situations, they could almost completly avoid in ME2.

Maybe that would be a solution working for all 10 out of 10 people.

Modifié par Ydrian, 09 mai 2011 - 09:37 .

[Macrake]

Can we get Beyond Insanity or something please? games too easy

[Varen Spectre]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Since ME3 is going for the whole diversified-battlefield-and-aggressive-AI approach, I entreat BioWare to do one simple thing: make Insanity insane without relying on unbalancing everything to do it. Make it hard, but not because enemy health and the number of hits Shepard can take before dying are so disproportionately out-of-sync with each other. There are other ways to challenge players than ramping up all of the enemy's stats and calling it a day, dammit. >_>

Hmm, unfortunately, that's quite unrealistic expectation / demand. Even if A.I., both in terms of actual intelligence and in terms of variety of fighting styles was improved, it's probable that the improvement would be visible to large (maybe full) extent on all difficulties. After all, it would be smart to show the advancements to all players, not just to those who pick the hardest difficulty. That again leaves very little room for "even better" A.I. on higher difficulties.

That means, the higher difficulty could again be achieved either by tougher enemies (more health, more armor / shields, more damage) or by their larger numbers and more refined arrangement on the map (kudos to anyone who figures out another factor). Now, I don't know how big the maps in ME 3 will be, but I guess, the developers could place only certain amount of opponents on them without them looking overcrowded.

And the better arrangement of enemies is hardly a factor in majority of games because level design usually allows very few changes without harming the lore too much (you can't have a well placed heavy mech behind every corner).

So, no matter how I look at it, I can't see anything else than "tougher enemies" being the main source of differences between the difficulties again.

Of course, the imbalance of classes is a topic worth it's own discussion. 

[Fordtransit]

Well at least i stand corrected.
Yesterday plyd adept on hardcore and found it to be entertaining, there defencceses are there but they are quite fast to strip, not like in insanaty, where you have to spent some time with that.
So for etertainment harcore for insanaty - maxed out defences on boogies and all is fine again.
But i started to wonder - i played earlier games with version 1.00 or was it 1.01 (retail CD). Few days ago i updated to 1.02 exe.
Is there a change in settings - because hardore for sure feelms much more fun... adepting is fun again, not hard work.

[CajNatalie]

I've only seen one comment (edit, post above just appeared as I was typing) two comments recently from someone saying 'I played as an Adept and found Insanity easy enough'.
For all we know, all the other people who say 'Insanity isn't hard herpaderp derp' could be playing Soldier/Infiltrator and never tried playing power classes.
So if anyone's going to post these pointless comments, try instead telling us the classes you play and experiences with those classes - then you'll have actually contributed something to the thread, like the people who brought up their insane adept play.

Even if it was easy enough as an Adept, though... it's even easier as a Soldier.
This is called IMBALANCE - either make it harder for the gun-centrics or make it easier for the power-centrics - doesn't matter which way you look at it, imbalance means imbalance.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 09 mai 2011 - 12:39 .

[broker10]

insanity in ME2 was great i loved it i hope ME3 is the same

[CajNatalie]

^Another pointless contribution due to no mention of class experiences.

[termokanden]

I first started playing on insanity with an engineer, and by now I've tried all of them. I really don't think it's half as difficult as people are saying. It doesn't take insane skills at all. You need to learn a little more precisely how to use your abilities instead of just pressing one of ME1's "make everyone fly" buttons or activating a defense ability that should have been labeled "godmode". But it's not rocket science.

Give the casters a chance. In particular, take them past Horizon, buy some upgrades, then see if you still hate it. Try reading the strategy forums as well. There are lots of people there who have fun playing all the classes, and there are plenty of tips and tricks. I can honestly say I learned quite a few things there that made the game a lot more fun.

Yes soldiers are somewhat overpowered. Don't let that ruin the other classes for you, because there's really nothing wrong with them.

Modifié par termokanden, 09 mai 2011 - 12:56 .

[hc00]

CajNatalie wrote...

I've only seen one comment (edit, post above just appeared as I was typing) two comments recently from someone saying 'I played as an Adept and found Insanity easy enough'.
For all we know, all the other people who say 'Insanity isn't hard herpaderp derp' could be playing Soldier/Infiltrator and never tried playing power classes.
So if anyone's going to post these pointless comments, try instead telling us the classes you play and experiences with those classes - then you'll have actually contributed something to the thread, like the people who brought up their insane adept play.

Even if it was easy enough as an Adept, though... it's even easier as a Soldier.
This is called IMBALANCE - either make it harder for the gun-centrics or make it easier for the power-centrics - doesn't matter which way you look at it, imbalance means imbalance.

In my mind at least part of the imbalance comes from the fact casters in ME arent meant to do damage, they are meant to control, but in ME2 with the combination of the massive amounts of damage gun characters can put out, and the fact your allies have almost no ability to do damage, it severely limits thier effectiveness.

After all what is the point of using a 6 second cooldown skill to slightly impede an enemies movement when a gun class could have taken out 3 enemies within the same time period.

And there are no enemies which are powerful enough to warrant having one of your team soley devoted to keeping them controlled, which arent semi immune to it.

[Someone With Mass]

As Sentinel, Insanity is a freaking breeze. Why? Assault Armor combined with power boosting armor pieces. And then I have Flashbang grenades to take out the annoying biotics for a while and I'm using a shotgun, because that's how I roll.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 09 mai 2011 - 01:02 .

[milena87]

I didn't find insanity difficult either, but I only played twice as a sentinel (next playtrough I'm going with an Adept though, maybe an Engineer later on).
The problem, as the OP pointed out, is that it's all about patience: it's not difficult to strip the enemies of all the shields/barriers, it just takes longer.
I really hope Bioware will take a different approach with ME3: improve the AI, more enemies and with more powers on the higher difficulties... or something like that.

But I have to say that, compared to ME1's insanity, ME2's is pretty fun.

Modifié par milena87, 09 mai 2011 - 01:26 .

[Bozorgmehr]

CajNatalie wrote...

Setting off warp bombs just doesn't have the same feel of making everyone fly, though...

That was the most fun thing about being an Adept. You're a psychic!
Sending all the mercs in to the air and tossing them flying (not just knocking them on their back like what happens in ME2) is a hell of a lot of fun in Mass Effect 1, and still a little enjoyable in ME2, though less-so due to the increased gun-focus.

Increased gun focus? You didn't shoot in ME1 and completed the game? I recall having to shoot at least 10 times longer with an Adept than in ME2 and guns were basically the only tool for killing enemies.

Defenses are a non-issue for anyone who looks around. Pretty much the entire time you're fighting there will be enemies around who've lost defenses, so you can nuts with Pull, Throw and Shockwave sending they flying. Powers like Singularity and Stasis work regardless of defenses and Warp can tear through two out of three types. Adepts always have multiple options available; what power they'd like to use or need at any given time. Here's an example - hardly any shooting, no Warp only physics

CajNatalie wrote...

Even if it was easy enough as an Adept, though... it's even easier as a Soldier.
This
is called IMBALANCE - either make it harder for the gun-centrics or
make it easier for the power-centrics - doesn't matter which way you
look at it, imbalance means imbalance.

So because Soldiers are easier to play would mean Adepts should have an easy or easier time also? That doesn't make sense. ME is single player, balance between classes is not really important. What matters is that all classes are fun to play. Game is also balanced on Normal, and on that level Adepts > Soldiers. They switch sides on Insanity. Why is this so bad? Adeps might be a little less powerful compared to a Soldier (Insanity) but they can blow through the game almost as fast anyway and have a lot of biotic fun along the way too.

Difficulty is not about balance between classes, it's a tool for players to adjust so they can play the game the way they like it best. If you don't like defenses, play on Veteran and go nuts.

[termokanden]

hc00 wrote...

In my mind at least part of the imbalance comes from the fact casters in ME arent meant to do damage, they are meant to control, but in ME2 with the combination of the massive amounts of damage gun characters can put out, and the fact your allies have almost no ability to do damage, it severely limits thier effectiveness.

Pull + Throw can instakill. That's massive damage. Warp explosions deal a lot of damage too. Incinerate is an insane power against armor/husks. Enemies under the effect of Cryo Blast/Pull take double damage. Mind controlled enemies deal lots of damage to others, particularly on insanity, while soaking up damage as well.

After all what is the point of using a 6 second cooldown skill to slightly impede an enemies movement when a gun class could have taken out 3 enemies within the same time period.

And which one would that be? You don't give the abilities enough credit. For example, Singularity can lock down some very dangerous enemies while you're shooting them or others. Same thing with Drone. Pull rank 3 lasts for 9 seconds I believe (plus and minus 20% from upgrades/insanity). Oh, and none of those have a 6 second cooldown.

Even if a soldier can kill faster, does that mean you have more fun playing one? It's a shame to just look at what soldiers can do and not even give other classes a chance because of it.

[CajNatalie]

I'm almost done replaying ME1 with my Vanguard to set up the import I want for ME2 (I killed too many people I want to see make appearances, lol... petty I know, but it was an excuse to give ME1 another play)... once I'm done I'll go back to ME2 with her, and do a triple play of Veteran Hardcore Insanity.

I'll turn protections blocking powers back on. For this... I'll see how much I make use of Shockwave/Pull or whether I'm just all CHARGE+Shotgun.

[Obro]

NOPE.avi

sorry to much work to worry about balancing

they will probably just beef them up with HP like they did in DA2

[hc00]

termokanden wrote...

Pull + Throw can instakill. That's massive damage. Warp explosions deal a lot of damage too. Incinerate is an insane power against armor/husks. Enemies under the effect of Cryo Blast/Pull take double damage. Mind controlled enemies deal lots of damage to others, particularly on insanity, while soaking up damage as well.

And which one would that be? You don't give the abilities enough credit. For example, Singularity can lock down some very dangerous enemies while you're shooting them or others. Same thing with Drone. Pull rank 3 lasts for 9 seconds I believe (plus and minus 20% from upgrades/insanity). Oh, and none of those have a 6 second cooldown.

Even if a soldier can kill faster, does that mean you have more fun playing one? It's a shame to just look at what soldiers can do and not even give other classes a chance because of it.

Pull and throw can only be used on enemies who have lost thier protection.  Gun users refer to enemies in that state as "1 hit kills".  So the fact throws are 1 hit kills (as long as there is an instakill area to throw them into) or they take extra damage doesnt really mean anything.

Warp explosions dont do crap, seriously they do less damage to the actual target than a mantis body shot, and the damage to those around is negligable.

Also warp has a 6 second cooldown, that is what I was refering to.

I will admit, the drone, while crap, is useful because enemies decide to focus on it for no apparent reason even though it does almost no damage, making them easy shots.

Cant comment on Cryo or mind control as dont use them regularily, the same rules apply though AFAIK ie you have to remove thier protection.

Singularity cant lock down dangerous enemies.  The things it can lockdown are 1 headshot kills and things like Harby and Scions or elite mercs more often than not walk out of the Spell.


I am sorry I offended you by having a different opinion of your favourite class than you, or am I.  No I am not come to think of it.

As an aside, if you mod the game so that powers work on enemies with protection then Adepts, while still not as combat effective as soldiers or infiltrators, are hilarious to play.

Modifié par hc00, 09 mai 2011 - 03:56 .

[termokanden]

hc00 wrote...

Pull and throw can only be used on enemies who have lost thier protection.  Gun users refer to enemies in that state as "1 hit kills".  So the fact throws are 1 hit kills (as long as there is an instakill area to throw them into) or they take extra damage doesnt really mean anything.

There isn't really a big difference in time spent shooting and throwing someone. They are also only "1 hit kills" with specific guns (slow sniper rifles and shotguns). And again you're too stuck on "I can do a billion damage with Widow + AR". Not everyone likes that one playstyle all the time.

Warp explosions dont do crap, seriously they do less damage to the actual target than a mantis body shot, and the damage to those around is negligable.

Without taking upgrades into account, the Mantis deals 263.1 damage and Heavy Warp deals 200 x 2 = 400 damage when detonating a target. Furthermore, all targets within a 5m radius will take 200 damage and will be knocked down if they are not protected.

You're wrong, sorry. You'd have to say "with Heightened AR and ammo powers blah blah". And then you'd be dealing damage to one target that would die from less damage than that.

I will admit, the drone, while crap, is useful because enemies decide to focus on it for no apparent reason even though it does almost no damage, making them easy shots.

And you've just stated why Drone is in fact NOT crap. That is the whole point of the skill. It also has an extremely low cooldown so you can easily set up a new one if it dies.

Singularity cant lock down dangerous enemies.  The things it can lockdown are 1 headshot kills and things like Harby and Scions or elite mercs more often than not walk out of the Spell.

It holds them for a little while. Not for long, but long enough that it's useful. You can keep Harby permanently locked down with this because Singularity has a low cooldown.

I am sorry I offended you by having a different opinion of your favourite class than you, or am I.  No I am not come to think of it.

I'm not offended because you have a different opinion. I'm just tired of people shouting that biotics are bad just because you can do a lot of damage with Adrenaline Rush.

Modifié par termokanden, 09 mai 2011 - 04:06 .

[CajNatalie]

Forgive me for going on a tangent here... since Singularity is being mentioned with its low cooldown again... I still don't understand how Singularity became so pathetic and spammable.
Even on lower difficulties... it's just a spam spell that brings one maybe two enemies in to the air. It used to be able to move (some) scenery as well so you could add chaos to the battlefield (plus it's always entertaining watching crates and chairs spin through the air).

Modifié par CajNatalie, 09 mai 2011 - 05:27 .

[hc00]

Just as a preface, I have cut your replies to make the post more concise, not as any kind of disrespect (some people find it offensive for some reason)

termokanden wrote...
There isn't really a big ... ll the time.

No I am not thinking of just the widow and AR, I am thinking of any gun and AR, no matter what weapon you are using you can easily kill any normal enemy from full health with any weapon with just 1 AR cast.  I just use the one shot kill ability of the sniper rifles as it is the most impressive demonstration of ARs power.  And of course I am thinking of spamming AR with a soldier as it is kind of the soldiers thing.

termokanden wrote...
Without taking ... they are not protected.

You are skewing it thier to support your preconceived opinion.  In order to get 200x2 you have to have cast both pull and warp, not just warp alone, and in the time you cast pull and warp you can get off 3 Mantis shots, assuming you are accurate that is superior damage, moreso if you can reliably headshot.  And that is without taking AR or ammo powers into account, either of them massively increases the damage discrepancy.

However in my experience enemies caught in the blast of a warp explosion only take the damage from the physics impacts, not from the warp.  Though dont know if that is accurate.  If it isnt it still supports what I originally said, which was adepts are for control (slight damage and knockdown/slowdown to groups, soldiers do pure damage)

termokanden wrote...
And you've just stated ...t up a new one if it dies.

Thats literally what I said?  The drone is **** in and of itself but is a good distraction for no apparent reason

termokanden wrote...
It holds them for a little while. ... has a low cooldown.

I just did a quick experiment then and out of 15 casts of singularity Harby walked out of 6 of them, whereas he wont walk out of one AR volley.
**EDIT**  This is a lvl 3 singularity btw, thought I would mention   Thats what my adept has ATM.

termokanden wrote...
I'm not offended because ... Adrenaline Rush.

That wasnt my point though?  My point was that the combat in this game comes down 100% to amount of damage put out as the enemies cant intelligently manouver to get you out of cover and being in cover makes you invulnerable, thus rendering CC worthless.

Which means adepts, being based around crowd control are at a disadvantage compared to soldiers.  I never said soldiers were better (well I did but not in the way I think you thought I meant)  just that the way the game is designed adepts are at a serious disadvantage.


Personally I have no idea how you can play adept on a non modded game without it frustrating your balls off.

Modifié par hc00, 09 mai 2011 - 05:57 .

[termokanden]

hc00 wrote...

Just as a preface, I have cut your replies to make the post more concise, not as any kind of disrespect (some people find it offensive for some reason)

Don't mind.

No I am not thinking of just the widow and AR, I am thinking of any gun and AR, no matter what weapon you are using you can easily kill any normal enemy from full health with any weapon with just 1 AR cast.  I just use the one shot kill ability of the sniper rifles as it is the most impressive demonstration of ARs power.  And of course I am thinking of spamming AR with a soldier as it is kind of the soldiers thing.

Yes. But my point is you're comparing everything to what you can do with Adrenaline Rush. It doesn't prove everything else is just bad. My opinion is that Adrenaline Rush is simply overpowered, and that you shouldn't let that ruin other classes for you.

You are skewing it thier to support your preconceived opinion.  In order to get 200x2 you have to have cast both pull and warp, not just warp alone

No no hold it right there. You said the Mantis does more damage than Warp does to the actual target in a Warp explosion. I didn't set up this imaginary situation at all, you did. Your facts were wrong. It's not really important though, I get what you're saying with this. Perhaps you could have mentioned how much damage a Widow headshot does with Heightened Adrenaline Rush instead. I forgot how much, but it's insane.

and in the time you cast pull and warp you can get off 3 Mantis shots

You have squadmates to help you set up combos. Besides, Pull doesn't have nearly the cooldown you seem to think. It's 3 seconds minus 20% with 3 upgrades and minus what you get from your class passive. Straight after that, you can cast Warp. That's only if you're doing it alone. If you have squadmates, you can set it up immediately.

If it isnt it still supports what I originally said, which was adepts are for control (slight damage and knockdown/slowdown to groups, soldiers do pure damage)

And Adepts do still have powers for control, but it takes more effort now. Doesn't mean it's worthless at all. Well, it works for me anyway.

Thats literally what I said?  The drone is **** in and of itself but is a good distraction for no apparent reason

Point is, this is an awesome power for a caster. Engineers are quite easy to play because of it, although no they do not kill faster than a soldier either.

I just did a quick experiment then and out of 15 casts of singularity Harby walked out of 6 of them, whereas he wont walk out of one AR volley.
**EDIT**  This is a lvl 3 singularity btw, thought I would mention   Thats what my adept has ATM.

I think you pretty much need Heavy on insanity. That has been my experience anyway. It can also be a bit hard to see sometimes if Harby is actually stuck in it or not, considering he sometimes spends a bit of time thinking about which one of his two attacks to use next.

That wasnt my point though?  My point was that the combat in this game comes down 100% to amount of damage put out as the enemies cant intelligently manouver to get you out of cover and being in cover makes you invulnerable, thus rendering CC worthless.

If you want to play Mass Effect 2 100% from behind cover, you can certainly do that (with very few exceptions). Can't imagine that's much fun though. I often use CC to get close and deal extra damage, or just so I can stay out of cover for a while and shoot more.

Which means adepts, being based around crowd control are at a disadvantage compared to soldiers.  I never said soldiers were better (well I did but not in the way I think you thought I meant)  just that the way the game is designed adepts are at a serious disadvantage.

Well you've read my opinion already I think: Soldiers are overpowered. They have ALL weapons (correction: not SMGs) and probably the most powerful ability in the game. Adepts work just fine without being overpowered though.

Modifié par termokanden, 09 mai 2011 - 06:40 .

[hc00]

We should probably stop it with the quoting as our posts are getting hilariously massive.

When talked about the warp explosion I was taking into account the casting times, I play alot of rpgs and when I talk I use damage for damage per second, and use spike damage for individual attacks, or at least I try to, of course I am probably inconsistant as hell.  Of course I try to always be taking DPS into account rather than pure individual attack damage as DPS is always more important.

I thought we were doing this mental exercise without upgrades?  Or at least I was (I am assuming the damage listed for the mantis on the wiki is its unupgraded damage, and it shows all upgraded stats in green text).


All in all though, yeah I agree, firearm centric classes are overpowered, soldier especially, that is what I have been trying to get at all along, though it seems I may have been somewhat unclear about that.

And playing ME2 from behind cover isnt that boring IMO, everything dies quick and reliable and you have no real danger.

**EDIT** By the way do you know if people caught in a warp explosion just take the physics damage, or if they take 200 dmg as well?  I am curious now.

Modifié par hc00, 09 mai 2011 - 06:52 .

[Bozorgmehr]

hc00 wrote...

**EDIT** By the way do you know if people caught in a warp explosion just take the physics damage, or if they take 200 dmg as well?  I am curious now.

Everything within Warp's detonation radius will take either full damage or double damage (against armor, barrier and ragdolled enemies within range). Plus Warp's detonation force which will either stagger enemies, or knock them down or sent them flying, damaging enemies and potentially killing em.

[termokanden]

DPS is important if you're trying to impress your buddies or you're fighting a boss with an enrage timer. In Mass Effect 2 it's overall not that important. It can be just as useful to have more survivability. There are a few places where you need DPS, and the worst are in the beginning of the game, which is exactly the part where caster classes are at their worst. I'm thinking this could be one of the reasons Adepts have such a bad rep.

If you're focused on getting the biggest possible damage numbers, you're stuck with one class. If you want to play the game in different ways, it's a different story.

[Ydrian]

Wiki says it deals 200 dmg regardless of protection. (http://masseffect.wi...p#Mass_Effect_2)

Playing the game i always thought casters need to be buffed (e.g. by allowing powers to bypass defences) but reading the forums made me think it would work far better if weapon classes would be nerfed quite a bit.

A good way to do that could be buffing the "armor" defence layer (the yellow bar. Dont know how its actualy named in english) to make weapons do trivial damage just like any kind of defence makes pull, throw, singularity and shockwave deal a trivial amount of damage.