don't know what else to put as a title. i figured i'd best put this in the spoiler section to be safe.
personally i was not expecting to see him again, when i heard his name i was thinking that can't be dao cullen right.
i'm glad to see he has a spine now, he is a great example of how a bad experiance can change a personality completely. and it's nice that the change wasn't for the worst.
but i expected him to go medevial on me in the end, and then make anders tranquil on the spot.
last he was in the game he had a servere hatred for mages, in general. but when you side with the mages he still takes your side dispite what he went through because of mages.
cullen
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Guest_wildrivr_*
, mai 07 2011 11:36
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#2
Posté 08 mai 2011 - 01:00
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wildrivr wrote...
and then make anders tranquil on the spot.
> Implying I would allow Anders to live up til that point.
#3
Guest_wildrivr_*
Posté 08 mai 2011 - 01:36
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yep, i have nothing against anders. i see his plight easily. but i can understand why templars are needed.
anders was a free spirit who was caged, not a good thing. like trying to cage sonic. justice only made anders anger worse, also being captured over and over.
but mages can do horrible things, like what happened to cullen.
but to me it's like saying a weapon is dangerous, no weapon is dangerous unless someone uses it to bring harm. a gun in the hand of a cop is a life saver, while a crimal with the same gun would turn it into a dangerous weapon.
anders doesn't handle the problem right, but i see his global point. a mage is treated like a threat just for being born that way, it's like saying someone is dangerous just for being born male or female. you don't have control over things like that, and i don't see the need to punish a mage for being born that way.
sorry for the rant i didn't know how to condense it.
anders was a free spirit who was caged, not a good thing. like trying to cage sonic. justice only made anders anger worse, also being captured over and over.
but mages can do horrible things, like what happened to cullen.
but to me it's like saying a weapon is dangerous, no weapon is dangerous unless someone uses it to bring harm. a gun in the hand of a cop is a life saver, while a crimal with the same gun would turn it into a dangerous weapon.
anders doesn't handle the problem right, but i see his global point. a mage is treated like a threat just for being born that way, it's like saying someone is dangerous just for being born male or female. you don't have control over things like that, and i don't see the need to punish a mage for being born that way.
sorry for the rant i didn't know how to condense it.
#4
Posté 08 mai 2011 - 01:49
Apathy1989
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A sword doesn't tempt you constantly in your thoughts and dreams, driving you to madness and evil.
Mages are powerful, mages are people. However mages are also under constant temptation from demons, made worse by constant threat of templars. Its hard to resist the temptation to protect yourself with all your might, and the might of a demon who may help.
My own opinion is that mages should be free, but templars should be around most towns/cities (as I expect they are already). Templars jobs should be to hunt hostile mages, where the city guards are ill equipped.
However, waiting for a threat to become real makes it more difficult to stop. More templars will die doing their duty. That is the whole debate between freedom vs control though. Freedom has danger. More surveillance and giving police more power would make their jobs easier and safer. The great balancing act.
Mages are powerful, mages are people. However mages are also under constant temptation from demons, made worse by constant threat of templars. Its hard to resist the temptation to protect yourself with all your might, and the might of a demon who may help.
My own opinion is that mages should be free, but templars should be around most towns/cities (as I expect they are already). Templars jobs should be to hunt hostile mages, where the city guards are ill equipped.
However, waiting for a threat to become real makes it more difficult to stop. More templars will die doing their duty. That is the whole debate between freedom vs control though. Freedom has danger. More surveillance and giving police more power would make their jobs easier and safer. The great balancing act.
Modifié par Apathy1989, 08 mai 2011 - 01:49 .
#5
Guest_wildrivr_*
Posté 08 mai 2011 - 02:29
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true very true, in the end both sides were corrupt, you get stabbed in the back no matter who you side with.
both sides have been hurt. but the circle seems more like a prison to me, and if the templars wouldn't have hounded anders the way they did i don't think he would have gone bad. but i can also say that if the mages never turned to blood magic in ferelden cullen among others won't have had to die or go through what cullen did.
but because cullen went through what he went through, he toughened up. so it did benefit him in some way.
but the mage\\templar war was inevitible because the situation hadn't changed in decades and mages like anders were at their wits end. they should be free but not locked up like you say. if anders didn't stand up against it there would have been someone else that would.
besides siding with the templars means siding with fenris, and i'm not exactly a fan of fenris, he reminds me of a girl i knew in my school, loud mouth, didn't know the meaning of the word tact, she was friends with my friend and that is the only reason i tolerated her existance, it was out of respect for my friend. so i will not side with fenris, so i either side with sebastion or anders.
anders is an opressed mage with a spirit that hates everything that isn't a mage.
and sebastion is a brainwashed, fool who was thrown into the chantry just to be pushed aside.
but i find it interesting after leandra dies you can yell at anders and tell him the templars are right and mages are dangerous to his face and he doesn't come down on you for saying that. i thought for sure he would go all justice on me at that point but he didn't.
both sides have been hurt. but the circle seems more like a prison to me, and if the templars wouldn't have hounded anders the way they did i don't think he would have gone bad. but i can also say that if the mages never turned to blood magic in ferelden cullen among others won't have had to die or go through what cullen did.
but because cullen went through what he went through, he toughened up. so it did benefit him in some way.
but the mage\\templar war was inevitible because the situation hadn't changed in decades and mages like anders were at their wits end. they should be free but not locked up like you say. if anders didn't stand up against it there would have been someone else that would.
besides siding with the templars means siding with fenris, and i'm not exactly a fan of fenris, he reminds me of a girl i knew in my school, loud mouth, didn't know the meaning of the word tact, she was friends with my friend and that is the only reason i tolerated her existance, it was out of respect for my friend. so i will not side with fenris, so i either side with sebastion or anders.
anders is an opressed mage with a spirit that hates everything that isn't a mage.
and sebastion is a brainwashed, fool who was thrown into the chantry just to be pushed aside.
but i find it interesting after leandra dies you can yell at anders and tell him the templars are right and mages are dangerous to his face and he doesn't come down on you for saying that. i thought for sure he would go all justice on me at that point but he didn't.
#6
Posté 08 mai 2011 - 11:55
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I'm fairly sure in the end, Justice has take over and anders for the most part is trapped in his body. Justice in its purest form is too extreme of an ideal to exist in this world, and using justices own logic you must punish him for all the innocents he slew.
I always end up killing anders, but I usually support the mages.
Back to cullen, I think he became a good man in DA2. In DAO he went from shy perv to angry templar, now he is a resolved but reasonable templar.
You cannot blame fenris for being the way he is when he is justifiably angry against his slave owners, all of which were mages who engaged in sacrificial blood magic as routine.
I always end up killing anders, but I usually support the mages.
Back to cullen, I think he became a good man in DA2. In DAO he went from shy perv to angry templar, now he is a resolved but reasonable templar.
You cannot blame fenris for being the way he is when he is justifiably angry against his slave owners, all of which were mages who engaged in sacrificial blood magic as routine.
#7
Guest_wildrivr_*
Posté 08 mai 2011 - 01:28
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i seem to always have a thing against killing companions i have traveled with, but that's me.
yes i was glad that cullen got stronger through his torment instead of letting his past beat him down, he is firm but fair in his judgement of mages and is willing to reason with them.
he doesn't even go on the defensive if your character is a mage, even if you aren't exactly nice to him.
i know fenris had a hard life, and i like people who are honest and speak their minds, i'm one of those people. but could he at least be a little nice. and every time i chat with him he get's mad at me and i'm trying to be nice, i don't belittle him or anything but he still goes off on me.
yes i was glad that cullen got stronger through his torment instead of letting his past beat him down, he is firm but fair in his judgement of mages and is willing to reason with them.
he doesn't even go on the defensive if your character is a mage, even if you aren't exactly nice to him.
i know fenris had a hard life, and i like people who are honest and speak their minds, i'm one of those people. but could he at least be a little nice. and every time i chat with him he get's mad at me and i'm trying to be nice, i don't belittle him or anything but he still goes off on me.
#8
Posté 08 mai 2011 - 02:11
dragonflight288
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I can sympathize with Fenris and why he hates mages. But what I don't like is that he seems to see EVERY flipping mage as a potential Denarius. He barely is willing to give Mage Hawke a chance, but he does simply because he/she isn't Denarius. But he doesn't even tolerate Merrill and Anders because Anders made a very unwise decision when he let Justice in, and Merrill practices blood magic (without harm to herself or others, and don't mention the Dalish clan's annihilation, Merethari and the others were all adults who could make their own decisions).
I guess I respect Cullen more than I do Fenris in the fact that yes, they both went through horrible things because of corrupt mages, they had seen Blood Magic at its worst. But what separates the two of them is that after leaving Feralden, Cullen is toughened by his experience but is still willing to look for a middle ground whereas Fenris can only see Denarius in mages and views magic as a poison engraved on his very soul.
I guess I respect Cullen more than I do Fenris in the fact that yes, they both went through horrible things because of corrupt mages, they had seen Blood Magic at its worst. But what separates the two of them is that after leaving Feralden, Cullen is toughened by his experience but is still willing to look for a middle ground whereas Fenris can only see Denarius in mages and views magic as a poison engraved on his very soul.
#9
Guest_wildrivr_*
Posté 08 mai 2011 - 05:12
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well spoken about fenris and cullen, i didn't like when he accused my mage just for being a mage even after she helped him. he is a worthy fighter but he let his experience consume him to much, i understand a bit i have a bad habit of holding grudges for years but he goes a bit to far.
also i realized something about the circle and anders which is the reason i will never kill him at the end. i support him 100%, now before you judge hear me out.
when i made my first mage origin, i was bothered by just being in the circle, and now i know why. at 15 is was diagnosed with mental illness, and i may have another one that is worse, not diagnosed but to symptoms are to familier. you are probably not familier with schizoid, basicly it is extreme withdraw from reality and people in general, and extreme selfishness. i basicly have every symptom.
now back in the 1800s to 1900s they had buildings that we refer to as insane asylums, a place where they take people who were different and locked them up like animals. they would then be drugged till they died, became a vegetable, or went insane. the very though of being born in that era and winding up in one of those places, i try not to think of it. just thefact these are used in horror settings is enough explanation
to me the circle is no different, it's just in a fantasy setting. i'm glad they got destroyed in the end.
to me the mage's plight hits on a personal level, and i don't care if i have to side with an abomination to see them gone.
may as well ready my flame shield now.
also i realized something about the circle and anders which is the reason i will never kill him at the end. i support him 100%, now before you judge hear me out.
when i made my first mage origin, i was bothered by just being in the circle, and now i know why. at 15 is was diagnosed with mental illness, and i may have another one that is worse, not diagnosed but to symptoms are to familier. you are probably not familier with schizoid, basicly it is extreme withdraw from reality and people in general, and extreme selfishness. i basicly have every symptom.
now back in the 1800s to 1900s they had buildings that we refer to as insane asylums, a place where they take people who were different and locked them up like animals. they would then be drugged till they died, became a vegetable, or went insane. the very though of being born in that era and winding up in one of those places, i try not to think of it. just thefact these are used in horror settings is enough explanation
to me the circle is no different, it's just in a fantasy setting. i'm glad they got destroyed in the end.
to me the mage's plight hits on a personal level, and i don't care if i have to side with an abomination to see them gone.
may as well ready my flame shield now.
#10
Posté 08 mai 2011 - 05:17
Knight of Dane
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There is a difference between being sympathetic to something and killing innocent people in it's name. 
Modifié par Knight of Dane, 08 mai 2011 - 05:18 .
#11
Guest_wildrivr_*
Posté 08 mai 2011 - 06:56
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i know, but these asylum's haunt me, the stories i've heard about them scar me even though i never actually been in one.
the things i heard that they do in there. but to be honest i'd rather not keep talking about it.
edit: to be honest i think of the qunari as more evil the the mages and templars combined, the force everyone to be one way, and are so narrowminded it's pathetic, and anyone that leaves the qun [whatever that is] is killed for it.
i can understand murder and imprisonment, but taking somone's free will is something i don't tolerate on any level.
at least most mages are good, and the templars don't dictate everything a mage does.
the things i heard that they do in there. but to be honest i'd rather not keep talking about it.
edit: to be honest i think of the qunari as more evil the the mages and templars combined, the force everyone to be one way, and are so narrowminded it's pathetic, and anyone that leaves the qun [whatever that is] is killed for it.
i can understand murder and imprisonment, but taking somone's free will is something i don't tolerate on any level.
at least most mages are good, and the templars don't dictate everything a mage does.
Modifié par wildrivr, 08 mai 2011 - 09:10 .
#12
Posté 08 mai 2011 - 11:20
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I have had a small taste of those insane asylums....very small. When I was in high school, they kept three of those very small white rooms (roughly 4 feet by 7 feet in area, no windows, save for a small one on the door) They used them for inschool suspension. And foolish bets. This other student and myself just couldn't get along, so we made a bet and the loser had to spend a week in one of those rooms, thankfully for only that class period. I lost. So for seven days during that class period, I spent it inside those rooms.
It's psychological torture. Wanting to see something beyond the bland white. And the small space makes it feel like everything is closing in on you.
If being in the Circle is anything like being in that room, I'd do everything I could to escape it.
It's psychological torture. Wanting to see something beyond the bland white. And the small space makes it feel like everything is closing in on you.
If being in the Circle is anything like being in that room, I'd do everything I could to escape it.
#13
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Posté 09 mai 2011 - 12:34
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wow all white, i think my eyes would be burning in pain having to stare at that, i took abilify and it damaged my eyes, it gave me iractic uncontrollable eye twitch, and blurred my vision to the point i needed glasses. and white is painful to look at.
but i can't believe that there are remnants of those places still around like that, i could cope with the isolation for a bit feeling trapped like that. i feel so bad for you, even with my wild imagination i can't begin to know what that's like, and my mind is pretty warped.
the circle does feel a bit like that, because you can't leave unless you are needed elsewhere, and everyone you see is the same as you, and the templars standing there watching you in full armor and armed. on my first playthrough i found them very intimating, except cullen, cause of his layed back apperance. also getting thrown into the fade at the begining knowing i would meet demons...
when i think of demons i think of that mothman movie [i can't spell the title] that scared me so badly i got sleep deprived, for maybe a week. ironicly we didn't know it was a horror, my dad got it only because part of the movie was filmed in kittaning our local city, the bridge that collapsed at the end is one that we drive on almost weekly. i didn't want to watch it but i've never been able to stand up to my father, he has a very short fuse, more so then mine.
but that's how i see demons.
so i'm against the circles with every ounce of my being, and destroying the chantry to me is a small price to pay to be rid of them. the qunari killed more when they destroyed isabela's ship alone, not to mention when they raided the city that took them in and gave them land for free, and i don't care what anyone says anders did that with a heavy heart i'm sure of it.
but yeah the qunari, raided the city slaughtering innocent people, over a damn book. that's just for lack of a better word stupid, there was no point in that. they knew who had the book why didn't they go after isabela. i don't hate her but. or even better they could just stop whining about the damn book in the first place.
but i can't believe that there are remnants of those places still around like that, i could cope with the isolation for a bit feeling trapped like that. i feel so bad for you, even with my wild imagination i can't begin to know what that's like, and my mind is pretty warped.
the circle does feel a bit like that, because you can't leave unless you are needed elsewhere, and everyone you see is the same as you, and the templars standing there watching you in full armor and armed. on my first playthrough i found them very intimating, except cullen, cause of his layed back apperance. also getting thrown into the fade at the begining knowing i would meet demons...
when i think of demons i think of that mothman movie [i can't spell the title] that scared me so badly i got sleep deprived, for maybe a week. ironicly we didn't know it was a horror, my dad got it only because part of the movie was filmed in kittaning our local city, the bridge that collapsed at the end is one that we drive on almost weekly. i didn't want to watch it but i've never been able to stand up to my father, he has a very short fuse, more so then mine.
but that's how i see demons.
so i'm against the circles with every ounce of my being, and destroying the chantry to me is a small price to pay to be rid of them. the qunari killed more when they destroyed isabela's ship alone, not to mention when they raided the city that took them in and gave them land for free, and i don't care what anyone says anders did that with a heavy heart i'm sure of it.
but yeah the qunari, raided the city slaughtering innocent people, over a damn book. that's just for lack of a better word stupid, there was no point in that. they knew who had the book why didn't they go after isabela. i don't hate her but. or even better they could just stop whining about the damn book in the first place.
#14
Posté 09 mai 2011 - 01:13
Shacary
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Wow I have Worked in those Asylums you speak of, I have seen the atrocities that people have done to others from years before , or even before they came in. can you picture someone shooting the fingers off a child becuz they did not Obey or they picked up an item their elders said not to?
think of a society that performs those deeds and more "legally" and I think you could pretty much understand where Fenris is coming from. Sure he is mistrustful and unwilling to open to others, He is curt and abrupt , but what interaction has he learned from others? HE does not betray any of Hawkes friends or self to the templars, and refuses to do so even at the behest of sebastian. he will not betray Hawke for whatever side they chose if friendship or rivalry is high enough.
I understand the sympathy also for the mages, No one relishes being confined in any way but, remember the story Wynne told of , having stones thrown at her, potential threats of death until the farmer locked her in the barn til the templars came for her. Like all society heirachies there are evil people in power that abuse lessers, but there seemed to be kind ones too. At least the mages had food, healthcare , clothing and beds, some protection [ im not discounting abuse happened... but overall it was NOT a total negative influence. ] education etc.
SO of the two beings , we could cry about whom was most mistreated ; but neither should have been. Ideally it would have been terrific if they could have seen some similar common ground, but truthfully, if you had been burned badly whenever you reach for a flame... what would you think when see a flame? [ ANders aka abomination as the image of terror recognized and promoted in tevinter as " power and evil'
I was honestly surprised Cullen didnt become kinda a nutter from the DAO story line I expected him to precipate more to the "kill the witch" attitude than the more tolerant man he was in Da2. Nice surprising growth there.
O yes and the circle in Kirkwall seemed lame to me, becuz there were mages everywhere! some roaming the city at nite. that was so paradoxical for me since in DAO my lil Warden couldnt even leave the tower! I think the whole component of real terror in Da2 for mages was really not shown well, as I seen more demonic terrorizing mages thru-out Kirkwall.
just so you know, I am not trying to provoke anyone but, I never got that same terror of asylum feelings from DA2... I wish it could have been shown better rather than some tranquil selling stuff outside of the gallows, to little story or time IDK something was missing.
OO also on Isabella I couldn't agree more, her silence and selfishness abotu the darn Book caused as many people to die in the Qunari attack as ANders explosion a rguably. Add to that, her betrayal of her own friends... she bugs the heck out of me. Im hoping she is one character that doesnt return { sorry peeps I dont like her much}
Anyways sorry for going off topic if i did!
think of a society that performs those deeds and more "legally" and I think you could pretty much understand where Fenris is coming from. Sure he is mistrustful and unwilling to open to others, He is curt and abrupt , but what interaction has he learned from others? HE does not betray any of Hawkes friends or self to the templars, and refuses to do so even at the behest of sebastian. he will not betray Hawke for whatever side they chose if friendship or rivalry is high enough.
I understand the sympathy also for the mages, No one relishes being confined in any way but, remember the story Wynne told of , having stones thrown at her, potential threats of death until the farmer locked her in the barn til the templars came for her. Like all society heirachies there are evil people in power that abuse lessers, but there seemed to be kind ones too. At least the mages had food, healthcare , clothing and beds, some protection [ im not discounting abuse happened... but overall it was NOT a total negative influence. ] education etc.
SO of the two beings , we could cry about whom was most mistreated ; but neither should have been. Ideally it would have been terrific if they could have seen some similar common ground, but truthfully, if you had been burned badly whenever you reach for a flame... what would you think when see a flame? [ ANders aka abomination as the image of terror recognized and promoted in tevinter as " power and evil'
I was honestly surprised Cullen didnt become kinda a nutter from the DAO story line I expected him to precipate more to the "kill the witch" attitude than the more tolerant man he was in Da2. Nice surprising growth there.
O yes and the circle in Kirkwall seemed lame to me, becuz there were mages everywhere! some roaming the city at nite. that was so paradoxical for me since in DAO my lil Warden couldnt even leave the tower! I think the whole component of real terror in Da2 for mages was really not shown well, as I seen more demonic terrorizing mages thru-out Kirkwall.
just so you know, I am not trying to provoke anyone but, I never got that same terror of asylum feelings from DA2... I wish it could have been shown better rather than some tranquil selling stuff outside of the gallows, to little story or time IDK something was missing.
OO also on Isabella I couldn't agree more, her silence and selfishness abotu the darn Book caused as many people to die in the Qunari attack as ANders explosion a rguably. Add to that, her betrayal of her own friends... she bugs the heck out of me. Im hoping she is one character that doesnt return { sorry peeps I dont like her much}
Anyways sorry for going off topic if i did!
Modifié par Shacary, 09 mai 2011 - 01:16 .
#15
Guest_wildrivr_*
Posté 09 mai 2011 - 03:24
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my mentioning of the asylums had nothing to do with fenris, it was about the way i see the circle.
fenris was treated unfairly, but he treats everyone like a criminal. even when you try to be nice and help he still treats you badly even when you have proven you are trustworthy.
him and cullen are in the same boat, they were beaten, tortured, tormented you name it but cullen took that experiance and became stronger because of it, he doesn't just threaten to kill every mage he sees and is actually willing to make life on mages easier. fenris was consumed by his hatred and anger to a point where he may never recover, and that is no way to live, it's not mentally, phyiscialy, or emotionly healthy, being like that for a long time will most likely wind up with him dead cause he pissed off the wrong person. both of them had a choice cullen choose well fenris did not.
and i know alot about harboring anger for long amounts of time, it's not good to do. and when i mean long time, i mean years. i'm still mad at a kid who shoved me in kindergarden i even remember how it happened and what it looked like. because i can't let it go.
when my cat died i kept it in, when we moved from AZ i kept it in. this is cause i don't know how to deal with it properly. and because i harbor everything the events are so fresh in my mind you'd think that something that happened to me years ago just happened unless i said otherwise.
i speak from experiance here fenris is on a dangerous path. he brings up his past every other second, which is proof that he is suffering endlessly, i'm not even sure when this all happened because he does the same thing i do.
fenris was treated unfairly, but he treats everyone like a criminal. even when you try to be nice and help he still treats you badly even when you have proven you are trustworthy.
him and cullen are in the same boat, they were beaten, tortured, tormented you name it but cullen took that experiance and became stronger because of it, he doesn't just threaten to kill every mage he sees and is actually willing to make life on mages easier. fenris was consumed by his hatred and anger to a point where he may never recover, and that is no way to live, it's not mentally, phyiscialy, or emotionly healthy, being like that for a long time will most likely wind up with him dead cause he pissed off the wrong person. both of them had a choice cullen choose well fenris did not.
and i know alot about harboring anger for long amounts of time, it's not good to do. and when i mean long time, i mean years. i'm still mad at a kid who shoved me in kindergarden i even remember how it happened and what it looked like. because i can't let it go.
when my cat died i kept it in, when we moved from AZ i kept it in. this is cause i don't know how to deal with it properly. and because i harbor everything the events are so fresh in my mind you'd think that something that happened to me years ago just happened unless i said otherwise.
i speak from experiance here fenris is on a dangerous path. he brings up his past every other second, which is proof that he is suffering endlessly, i'm not even sure when this all happened because he does the same thing i do.
#16
Posté 09 mai 2011 - 03:34
Shacary
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O no Cullen was beaten and tortured durig the tower mishap, but NOT a lifetime, even 7 years is not a long time for someone to overcome a lifetime of abuse. Do not think that if you cant remember incidents your "brain" subconscious would not act from the "muscle Memory of " fire or pain or whatever. I knew you meant the circle, I dispute some of the angst about the tower but not all of it.
while someone can say everyday you hate for the things that was done to you [ Anders is totally guilty of this too] is another day you spend in " prison" , a person cannot force another to reconcile or even wade thru the emotions/hurts that they must to heal.
Im just suggesting its plausible and all. every person progresses [ to use your analogy] of grief at a different pace, some may have come to terms from a loss of limb in months ; for others it may take years. The fact that Fenris survived a life of tevinter atrocities as relatively sane is a testament to his strength. Ask any survivor, it takes courage to take the next step forward. I am not calling ANders a coward by any means , just that I think the game did not demonstrate the atrocities ANders alluded to very well. I wish it had I may have had more compassion for the plight, as It was I just seen way to many nutty mages to make the point
You really cant try to pet a beaten dog without a LOT of ground work first, or you risk getting bitten.I am not saying how you percieve the story is wrong, just saying there are two sides to a coin.
while someone can say everyday you hate for the things that was done to you [ Anders is totally guilty of this too] is another day you spend in " prison" , a person cannot force another to reconcile or even wade thru the emotions/hurts that they must to heal.
Im just suggesting its plausible and all. every person progresses [ to use your analogy] of grief at a different pace, some may have come to terms from a loss of limb in months ; for others it may take years. The fact that Fenris survived a life of tevinter atrocities as relatively sane is a testament to his strength. Ask any survivor, it takes courage to take the next step forward. I am not calling ANders a coward by any means , just that I think the game did not demonstrate the atrocities ANders alluded to very well. I wish it had I may have had more compassion for the plight, as It was I just seen way to many nutty mages to make the point
You really cant try to pet a beaten dog without a LOT of ground work first, or you risk getting bitten.I am not saying how you percieve the story is wrong, just saying there are two sides to a coin.
Modifié par Shacary, 09 mai 2011 - 03:37 .
#17
Guest_wildrivr_*
Posté 09 mai 2011 - 04:34
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some circle mages are happy in the circle, other like anders feel trapped, not everyone can live like everyone else.
i'm a girl but i don't act girly by any means, and being forced to do so would scar me for life. anders is a free spirit people like him do badly locked up, it was only a matter of time before he snapped.
there are many different kinds of torment, for me being out of my room for more then 2 hours is torment, but for someone else it's considered freedom.
there are soldiers that go to war and come back fine, others are scared for life. it's not the amount of torture that we get it's how we deal with it that makes the difference, and in the end it all comes down to choices we make.
anders to me seems like he's made about the circle and the chantry in general, but it's justice made all of is feeling about the circle and the chantry ten times worse then they real were, this is because justice only heard the story through one point of view and thus he thinks the circle and the chantry are horrible places only because anders doesn't like them. he was never told of the better half of the circle and the chantry so he is unaware that the templars and the circle's methods were needed.
i hope in da3 there is a way to help anders, but i have a bad feeling his persona may be gone for good, and justice is now living in his body.
and i couldn't help but notice how much he changed after he stole that item from the chantry, it was almost like anders was gone.
i found a video on youtube, that seemed to tell me anders killed himself so justice could live. i believe this because i know anders from awakening would have never did what his da2 self did, probably because he wouldn't have taken it seriously enough.
great now i want to play awakening, i don't even want to think how long that will take to download.
i'm a girl but i don't act girly by any means, and being forced to do so would scar me for life. anders is a free spirit people like him do badly locked up, it was only a matter of time before he snapped.
there are many different kinds of torment, for me being out of my room for more then 2 hours is torment, but for someone else it's considered freedom.
there are soldiers that go to war and come back fine, others are scared for life. it's not the amount of torture that we get it's how we deal with it that makes the difference, and in the end it all comes down to choices we make.
anders to me seems like he's made about the circle and the chantry in general, but it's justice made all of is feeling about the circle and the chantry ten times worse then they real were, this is because justice only heard the story through one point of view and thus he thinks the circle and the chantry are horrible places only because anders doesn't like them. he was never told of the better half of the circle and the chantry so he is unaware that the templars and the circle's methods were needed.
i hope in da3 there is a way to help anders, but i have a bad feeling his persona may be gone for good, and justice is now living in his body.
and i couldn't help but notice how much he changed after he stole that item from the chantry, it was almost like anders was gone.
i found a video on youtube, that seemed to tell me anders killed himself so justice could live. i believe this because i know anders from awakening would have never did what his da2 self did, probably because he wouldn't have taken it seriously enough.
great now i want to play awakening, i don't even want to think how long that will take to download.
#18
Posté 09 mai 2011 - 05:04
dragonflight288
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I think you're both right...and wrong at certain points.
I agree that Justice, a Fade spirit who tries to embody the virtue of justice in its purest form, would only look at Ander's point of view because of their friendship. But Isabella in the game makes a good point. What can she do for the people of Kirkwall after the Qunari left? Beat herself daily? Anders/Justice tells her to make amends and face justice when the events happened three years earlier. She retorts by saying that there is a thing called moving on. That true justice cannot exist. There's a saying "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." Essentially justice and vengeance right there in that saying. But if everyone followed it, the whole world would be blind and toothless.
And yes, Fenris does have a lifetime of abuse from the magisters, but he also frequently states he has no memory of the time before he got the lyrium markings. So that's three years on the run before he meets Hawke, and almost his whole life for some period of time before that is a clean slate. Nothing there to remember. So what was a full life of abuse is actually only a short time that he remembers.
And when he talks to his sister (I let her live), he claims magic tainted even his past and family when he found out his sister is a mage. He hates all magic. Period. He cannot see any good in it. Granted, all he had seen it for was selfish abuses and power games.
And yes, the game could have made the mages more sympathetic, but I think the final decision was designed for us to see both sides as corrupt, templars and mages, so any ideal or thoughts taken would reflect the player. Do you value security over freedom?
Cullen I think, is the best prepared (by the end of DA2) to lead the Templars, with his experience with blood magic and his willingness to work with the mages to find some form of middle ground (his idea is help them understand WHY templars are needed)
I agree that Justice, a Fade spirit who tries to embody the virtue of justice in its purest form, would only look at Ander's point of view because of their friendship. But Isabella in the game makes a good point. What can she do for the people of Kirkwall after the Qunari left? Beat herself daily? Anders/Justice tells her to make amends and face justice when the events happened three years earlier. She retorts by saying that there is a thing called moving on. That true justice cannot exist. There's a saying "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." Essentially justice and vengeance right there in that saying. But if everyone followed it, the whole world would be blind and toothless.
And yes, Fenris does have a lifetime of abuse from the magisters, but he also frequently states he has no memory of the time before he got the lyrium markings. So that's three years on the run before he meets Hawke, and almost his whole life for some period of time before that is a clean slate. Nothing there to remember. So what was a full life of abuse is actually only a short time that he remembers.
And when he talks to his sister (I let her live), he claims magic tainted even his past and family when he found out his sister is a mage. He hates all magic. Period. He cannot see any good in it. Granted, all he had seen it for was selfish abuses and power games.
And yes, the game could have made the mages more sympathetic, but I think the final decision was designed for us to see both sides as corrupt, templars and mages, so any ideal or thoughts taken would reflect the player. Do you value security over freedom?
Cullen I think, is the best prepared (by the end of DA2) to lead the Templars, with his experience with blood magic and his willingness to work with the mages to find some form of middle ground (his idea is help them understand WHY templars are needed)
#19
Guest_wildrivr_*
Posté 09 mai 2011 - 05:46
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yes anders made a stupid choice at that point, but after seeing him in awakening as such a joyful, fun loving, free spirited person and then seeing how he deteriorated when i saw him the first time in da2. i walked into his clinic and was shocked when reacted the way he did, all i could do was ask myself what happened to him that was that bad. his personality did a complete 180 flip. i began to wonder if i was at fault somehow or the history generator, i didn't have awakening so the game filled the gaps for me.
they say that half of pain in general, is all in the mind. the more you dwell on something the worse it gets but only to you, when i was diagnosed with aspergers it was mild, but i dwelled on it so much i made it worse, and either i developed a more severe illness on top of it or morphed it into something worse. the reason it happened was because i hated other people who were mentally disabled, i thought they all should be locked up so we didn't have to deal with them, so finding out i was mental too was the last thing i ever wanted to hear in my life. and i went from someone who might have had a bright future to a homebody, who lives off of social security, can't drive, can't work. i had taken every dream i ever had and told myself i'll never get to accomplish any of them.
the only reason keep myself alive anymore is for the fantasy world in my head, but i am at fault to a point cause i obsessed to much.
i'm hoping that i die at 25 like i felt i would at six years old, i'm honestly praying for the apocalypse to be next year, then i want to be cast into oblivion and forgotten. i don't want to live beyond this life.
morbid stuff aside.
cullen would now be a good leader for the templars, because he moved on from his pain, it will always be there, but he doesn't dwell on it 24\\7. maybe in da3 he will reinvent the chantry\\circle system so both sides are at peace. he is the best one for the job, he's tough when needed but is not closed out to other methods.
i was suprised when i ran into him, it was like he was a completely different person, cause i remembered him yelling at me from in his cage.
it seemed that cullen got better and anders got worse.
they say that half of pain in general, is all in the mind. the more you dwell on something the worse it gets but only to you, when i was diagnosed with aspergers it was mild, but i dwelled on it so much i made it worse, and either i developed a more severe illness on top of it or morphed it into something worse. the reason it happened was because i hated other people who were mentally disabled, i thought they all should be locked up so we didn't have to deal with them, so finding out i was mental too was the last thing i ever wanted to hear in my life. and i went from someone who might have had a bright future to a homebody, who lives off of social security, can't drive, can't work. i had taken every dream i ever had and told myself i'll never get to accomplish any of them.
the only reason keep myself alive anymore is for the fantasy world in my head, but i am at fault to a point cause i obsessed to much.
i'm hoping that i die at 25 like i felt i would at six years old, i'm honestly praying for the apocalypse to be next year, then i want to be cast into oblivion and forgotten. i don't want to live beyond this life.
morbid stuff aside.
cullen would now be a good leader for the templars, because he moved on from his pain, it will always be there, but he doesn't dwell on it 24\\7. maybe in da3 he will reinvent the chantry\\circle system so both sides are at peace. he is the best one for the job, he's tough when needed but is not closed out to other methods.
i was suprised when i ran into him, it was like he was a completely different person, cause i remembered him yelling at me from in his cage.
it seemed that cullen got better and anders got worse.
#20
Posté 09 mai 2011 - 06:04
Shacary
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well actually we dont know when the markings were put on Fenris so there is no exact limit to 3 years. But all the theories as plausible , I just liek to analyze al the character s a bit { sorry still dont appreicate Izzy much, but I can understand many do .. mb someday I will too who knows?} I will totally admit I am bias about ANders since I liked him in DAA and was totally disappointed with the character in Da2 !
Im very sorry to hear your difficulties you face Wild, but it is wonderful you are surviving and hopefully will be with us many years to come. If you haev DAA its interesting to play. IM not sure it makes much difference in the DA2 save or not, but.. worth doing!
Also I agree Cullen woudl be good, I was jsut surprised he did overcome the incident in the tower, and as for Fenris thru the game he does develop/work thru his issues, but i think trust would be long time coming , one cannot give trust, it must be earned. I defend the character becuz it struck me as realistic, I think when He discovered the long lost sister he was hoping for was the very essence [ mage] of the kind of person that harmed him repeatedly ,he was realistically disappointed fustrated and felt an essence of betrayal. I totally respect the opinions that dont see the story that way tho too!
And ya the concept of freedom over protection was supposed to be the crux of the story I believe but as it was like hurried to a boil , I never really felt it much in game. It was like a rushed conclusionand I didnt really " see " much of the core issue in the long run of the game. I wished it had been more expanded on,but it left me like Meh!
Im very sorry to hear your difficulties you face Wild, but it is wonderful you are surviving and hopefully will be with us many years to come. If you haev DAA its interesting to play. IM not sure it makes much difference in the DA2 save or not, but.. worth doing!
Also I agree Cullen woudl be good, I was jsut surprised he did overcome the incident in the tower, and as for Fenris thru the game he does develop/work thru his issues, but i think trust would be long time coming , one cannot give trust, it must be earned. I defend the character becuz it struck me as realistic, I think when He discovered the long lost sister he was hoping for was the very essence [ mage] of the kind of person that harmed him repeatedly ,he was realistically disappointed fustrated and felt an essence of betrayal. I totally respect the opinions that dont see the story that way tho too!
And ya the concept of freedom over protection was supposed to be the crux of the story I believe but as it was like hurried to a boil , I never really felt it much in game. It was like a rushed conclusionand I didnt really " see " much of the core issue in the long run of the game. I wished it had been more expanded on,but it left me like Meh!
#21
Guest_wildrivr_*
Posté 09 mai 2011 - 08:24
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i understand we see eye to eye with characters and people who share our difficulties.
the character i see eye to eye with is harkness from fallout 3. he's an android and is alot like me or people like me. us with mental problems are always trying to be accepted but even when we are accepted we still feel like we don't fit in.
most androids in games are like humans but they know they are not, they want to fit in but feel they can't.
not much unlike myself.
i'm hanging out with anders in awakening, i had him all wrong for years it seems. when i started playing awakening way back when i always got into a fight with him on every conversation. now i understand why, it's due to my inability to seperate jokes from direct insults, i thought he was being an **** all that time, and so i would come down on him every damn chance i got. but now i know he was just joking the whole time so now i just joke right back and no more wars.
honestly when heard his name in da2 i was thinking oh great just what i need, he's back.... maybe i should sharpen my blade. and then i saw that whole change in him. i guess that's when i realized he was joking before.
and now he had fallen apart and i missunderstood him all that time, rediculed him, belittled him, and fought on a daily basis with him. i thought his personality flip was my fault all because i didn't know he was just joking.
so i was not an anders fan by far, i've grown to like him now because of da2, and partly due to guilt i can't kill him.
also my deterioration happened a long time ago some time between 15 and 18, i bearly passed highschool because all i could think was [oh great i'm one of those mental freaks] i let my Dx get to me and i crumbled because of it. i turned something that wasn't so bad into something that now rules my life, and i don't have the strength or the will to fight.
but that's what i mean about dwelling and obsessing. i destroyed myself on my own, nobody helped me do it. the mind is powerful thing.
anyway back to cullen, he's another character that pissed me off first time around, might have something to do with starting out as a dalish warrior. all i knew was he was just a loudmouthed, jackass, in a cage, and he's ****ing at me for helping, i wasn't impressed to say the least.
it wasn't till like 5 characters later i made my female mage, but that was only when i browsed youtube and ran across a scene from the female version of the mage origin by accident. i then was thinking that's that caged ****. at the time i didn't even bother to remember his name i was so damn pissed.
so i wasn't a fan of either character before da2.
but i still hate sten with a blinding passion, now i know what scumbags the qunari are.
but i think awaken does make a difference because i'm safely asumming nathaniel is dead in my games. cause i haven't even found any mentioning of him at all. or those cutscenes could be betas and were removed in the end. i don't know.
the character i see eye to eye with is harkness from fallout 3. he's an android and is alot like me or people like me. us with mental problems are always trying to be accepted but even when we are accepted we still feel like we don't fit in.
most androids in games are like humans but they know they are not, they want to fit in but feel they can't.
not much unlike myself.
i'm hanging out with anders in awakening, i had him all wrong for years it seems. when i started playing awakening way back when i always got into a fight with him on every conversation. now i understand why, it's due to my inability to seperate jokes from direct insults, i thought he was being an **** all that time, and so i would come down on him every damn chance i got. but now i know he was just joking the whole time so now i just joke right back and no more wars.
honestly when heard his name in da2 i was thinking oh great just what i need, he's back.... maybe i should sharpen my blade. and then i saw that whole change in him. i guess that's when i realized he was joking before.
and now he had fallen apart and i missunderstood him all that time, rediculed him, belittled him, and fought on a daily basis with him. i thought his personality flip was my fault all because i didn't know he was just joking.
so i was not an anders fan by far, i've grown to like him now because of da2, and partly due to guilt i can't kill him.
also my deterioration happened a long time ago some time between 15 and 18, i bearly passed highschool because all i could think was [oh great i'm one of those mental freaks] i let my Dx get to me and i crumbled because of it. i turned something that wasn't so bad into something that now rules my life, and i don't have the strength or the will to fight.
but that's what i mean about dwelling and obsessing. i destroyed myself on my own, nobody helped me do it. the mind is powerful thing.
anyway back to cullen, he's another character that pissed me off first time around, might have something to do with starting out as a dalish warrior. all i knew was he was just a loudmouthed, jackass, in a cage, and he's ****ing at me for helping, i wasn't impressed to say the least.
it wasn't till like 5 characters later i made my female mage, but that was only when i browsed youtube and ran across a scene from the female version of the mage origin by accident. i then was thinking that's that caged ****. at the time i didn't even bother to remember his name i was so damn pissed.
so i wasn't a fan of either character before da2.
but i still hate sten with a blinding passion, now i know what scumbags the qunari are.
but i think awaken does make a difference because i'm safely asumming nathaniel is dead in my games. cause i haven't even found any mentioning of him at all. or those cutscenes could be betas and were removed in the end. i don't know.
#22
Posté 09 mai 2011 - 12:49
dragonflight288
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You have aspergers as well? Guess I'm not alone in that department.
As for Fenris and the three years. I mentioned three years because that's how long he's been on the run from Denarius before we meet him. He says that in Act 1 if we ask him.
Cullen did anger me in Origins, especially now that he had such a blind hatred for mages, or so it seemed while he was in the cage. But for him, at that point, the pain was still fresh and the emotional trauma of seeing all his friends die was recent. So he would be in the most pain then.
In the beginning of Dragon Age 2, when I started debating mages with him, I was half expecting him to lash out. But he actually listened to options for finding some way for mages too understand why templars are needed. He honestly considered a middle ground.
The only other two templars I can think of who wanted something like that were Thrask and Gregoir. And Thrask didn't have the same experience with blood mages that Cullen had, so Thrask practiced less caution.
As for Fenris and the three years. I mentioned three years because that's how long he's been on the run from Denarius before we meet him. He says that in Act 1 if we ask him.
Cullen did anger me in Origins, especially now that he had such a blind hatred for mages, or so it seemed while he was in the cage. But for him, at that point, the pain was still fresh and the emotional trauma of seeing all his friends die was recent. So he would be in the most pain then.
In the beginning of Dragon Age 2, when I started debating mages with him, I was half expecting him to lash out. But he actually listened to options for finding some way for mages too understand why templars are needed. He honestly considered a middle ground.
The only other two templars I can think of who wanted something like that were Thrask and Gregoir. And Thrask didn't have the same experience with blood mages that Cullen had, so Thrask practiced less caution.
#23
Guest_wildrivr_*
Posté 10 mai 2011 - 02:32
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i could say the same i rarely meet another aspie outside of wrongplanet forums.
oh he was a slave 3 years ago i thought by the way he talked about it it was a couple of days before meeting hawke.
yeah cullen is annoying the first time around, i kept thinking as he ranted, "yeah dude i made my decision, yeah we know you you hate mages, god just shut up!" and the fact that i started out on the dalish orgin didn't help matters much, so didn't even know why he was like that for the better part of 3 to 4 months. not just his friends but if you play a female mage he actually liked the pc, and was being tormented because of her.
uldred must have known what cullen's weakness was and exploited it, by using his desire for her and his saddness when she left, to break him. and because of his symapthy for mages he was the one that got caught.
i could get you the video of the conversation on youtube, that's actually what made me curious enough to make a female mage pc. and he even mention's her if you imported the female mage origin into da2, i could get that video also, but it may be a bit harder to find, i ran across it by accident. but he still likes her.
yeah i was expecting him to be nasty as well.
awe heck here is the first video i mentioned
and here is the second
i hope those links work.
oh he was a slave 3 years ago i thought by the way he talked about it it was a couple of days before meeting hawke.
yeah cullen is annoying the first time around, i kept thinking as he ranted, "yeah dude i made my decision, yeah we know you you hate mages, god just shut up!" and the fact that i started out on the dalish orgin didn't help matters much, so didn't even know why he was like that for the better part of 3 to 4 months. not just his friends but if you play a female mage he actually liked the pc, and was being tormented because of her.
uldred must have known what cullen's weakness was and exploited it, by using his desire for her and his saddness when she left, to break him. and because of his symapthy for mages he was the one that got caught.
i could get you the video of the conversation on youtube, that's actually what made me curious enough to make a female mage pc. and he even mention's her if you imported the female mage origin into da2, i could get that video also, but it may be a bit harder to find, i ran across it by accident. but he still likes her.
yeah i was expecting him to be nasty as well.
awe heck here is the first video i mentioned
and here is the second
i hope those links work.
#24
Posté 10 mai 2011 - 03:10
dragonflight288
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Very nice. I usually play male characters (being a male myself, I simply find it easier to understand where a male character may come from than a female....having never been a female)
Right then, so what is everyone's opinion of when Cullen turns his back on Meredith to support the champion?
Right then, so what is everyone's opinion of when Cullen turns his back on Meredith to support the champion?
#25
Posté 10 mai 2011 - 03:13
dragonflight288
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Very nice. Really liked those videos. If you take those two moments, it may seem like Cullen drove her away from his fear. But once he left Ferelden, looks like he regretted it.
Kind of liked the irony of his statement "They caged us like animals, looked for ways to break us!"
Umm...sounds like some sadistic templars and the mages to me.
Crap...double post.
Kind of liked the irony of his statement "They caged us like animals, looked for ways to break us!"
Umm...sounds like some sadistic templars and the mages to me.
Crap...double post.
Modifié par dragonflight288, 10 mai 2011 - 03:13 .
