71 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

 I never understand is why Liara fans are blind to her obsessive character traits in ME1 and fallow her to ME2. She was so obsessed with protheans she alienated herself for 50 year studiyng them by herself. If you get her last in ME1, she becomes upset with you when you tell her that the reapers killed them because she want to get the info herself and it was unfair that someone who was not studying them just fell on the answer on their own. She then moves on to Sheperd, going so far as to read up on him/her to be able to talk to Sheperd instead of just talking to Sheperd. This goes so far that she hunts Sheperds body down for Cerburus. Along the way doing that, Feron and the shadow broker came up, so she became obsessed with that. Now that it over with the SB dead, she's obsessed with the info there.
Seening how bad her obsessive personality can get is strong direction for her character growth .

Let look at her conversations.....
ME1




She talks about her intrest in the protheans(Take note her statement about her self isolation.)....then her intrest in you and your visions.

Also, for fun...Getting Liara Last.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpvCgT9V0bs&NR=1
You can see that she acts alot like how she acts in ME2

ME2...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_XCQEL8RiE

It's all shadow broker.... Then, she tells you why...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjFMPaSjAuo

Now take note that she's not on your ship after kill the SB.

After going over all her character growth details....I'm not surpize she acts the way she did in ME2.

Modifié par dreman9999, 08 mai 2011 - 04:08 .

[corporal doody]

im not blind to it. im cool with it. that "obsessive personality" helps make sense of some of the stuff she has done.

[HTTP 404]

I agree, I have noticed this character "flaw" of hers. She's hyper-focused on a goal she sets for herself.

I do see this flaw as a good thing as it means that she is extremely loyal to shepard as long as shepard and herself share a common goal.  I would like bioware to explore this in Me3, where liara's goal conflicts with shepards.  I wouldnt know what that would be, but I can imagine conflict.

Modifié par HTTP 404, 08 mai 2011 - 04:14 .

[dreman9999]

corporal doody wrote...

im not blind to it. im cool with it. that "obsessive personality" helps make sense of some of the stuff she has done.

Exactly, which is why I never complained about her character in ME2.

[dreman9999]

HTTP 404 wrote...

I agree, I have noticed this character "flaw" of hers. She's hyper-focused on a goal she sets for herself.

I do see this flaw as a good thing as it means that she is extremely loyal to shepard as long as shepard and herself share a common goal.  I would like bioware to explore this in Me3, where liara's goal conflicts with shepards.  I wouldnt know what that would be, but I can imagine conflict.

I don't see that happening with the reapers invading and all.

[TheMarshal]

You felt that your post from the other Liara-hate thread was so important that it deserved its own thread?

I don't deny that Liara is very single-minded in her endeavors, and I think it works for her, it allows her to put her mind and her drive to its full use. Shepard would, you know, still be dead if it had been left up to the rest of the Normandy crew. And now she's taken over the largest information network in the galaxy like nobody else could have (except perhaps Miranda).

[Someone With Mass]

Obsessive? Nah. That old N7 armor in her apartment was probably just something she stumbled upon.

[dreman9999]

TheMarshal wrote...

You felt that your post from the other Liara-hate thread was so important that it deserved its own thread?

I don't deny that Liara is very single-minded in her endeavors, and I think it works for her, it allows her to put her mind and her drive to its full use. Shepard would, you know, still be dead if it had been left up to the rest of the Normandy crew. And now she's taken over the largest information network in the galaxy like nobody else could have (except perhaps Miranda).

I never said it was a fault....Just a flaw and it's part of her character........ Also, It was a good point. I just want to discussed it more.

[AK404]

dreman9999 wrote...

 I never understand is why Liara fans are blind to her obsessive character traits in ME1 and fallow her to ME2. She was so obsessed with protheans she alienated herself for 50 year studiyng them by herself.

Obviously, you've never been to grad school.  What you call 'obsessive,' we call 'focused.'

Liara has a Ph.D.  Studying Protheans is her career, and what's she's based her life upon.  Of course she's going to be a bit obsessive about them.

[Raiil]

I have no clue, seeing as Liara basically sat on my ship and collected dust the entire journey.

I admit to be a little weirded out at the armour in her pad, though...

[dreman9999]

Valentia X wrote...

I have no clue, seeing as Liara basically sat on my ship and collected dust the entire journey.

I admit to be a little weirded out at the armour in her pad, though...

Liara will alway love you even if you don't love her......She's watching you though the window right now........

[corporal doody]

hiding in the closet talking bout phone service?

[lolwut666]

My problem with Liara is not that she is obsessive, but that her obsessiveness - which is an unhealthy character trait in real life - always serves her well, which is proof that she is favored by the plot.

That and how she went from an achaeologist to the best information broker in the galaxy out of nowhere, and how her change in character was less about hardening and more about a complete loss of basic moral values.

A person who was mostly compassionate like her old self would not turn into someone who threatens to flay others alive; who is willing to put others at risk of death to accomplish an objective, and that shows complete disregard for the lives of innocents caught in the crossfire in such a short period.

[TheMarshal]

I don't think obsessiveness/focus is always a malicious character trait in real life. Such single-mindedness in real life is the driving force behind some of the greatest accomplishments that we've seen. It's the reason that we have great works of art, cures for diseases, and why we've set foot on the moon. Of course with the wrong person it could result in self-destructive (or worse, outwardly destructive) behavior, but in Liara - who is ultimately compassionate - it does not.

That sort of single-mindedness in Liara allowed her to become a great archaeologist, uncovering things about the Protheans in her half-century of study that her peers couldn't in their entire lives. She used that same ability to piece seemingly unrelated together into an information brokering business. In the process, she had to change how she approached the world. If she simply said "Aw come on, please pay me!" do you really think that she could have gotten very far?

You bring up Sekat's death and her nonchalance about it. I would argue that Sekat was likely just an asset for her information brokering business, and not an actual 'innocent'. When confronted with an innocent (like the woman Vasir took hostage) Liara is restrained, when she could just as easily have shot the hostage and moved on.

[lolwut666]

You can tidy up however you like, but that's not how it works.

Every other squadmate is great at what they do, and they don't need to be obssessive about it.

And working hard towards accomplishing a goal does not require a pathological condition. You can focus on something without being unnatural about it. Going after a corpse is too much.

And running an information gathering business is not the same as archealogy. It requires social interaction, street smarts, guile, among other things Liara cleary did not have in ME1, as she was very inexperienced socially. Running a business also requires a knowledge of finances, which I doubt she had.

And many innocents got killed because of her obsession with the Shadow Broker, starting with the people inside of the trade center that were either killed by the explosion or by the mercs who went after her. When you kill Vasir, Liara callously suggest that you should take advantage of the chaos to sneak off planet.

[Da Mecca]

This has been obvious from the beginning.

She was obsessed with Protheans, then obsessed with you, then obsessed with the Shadow Broker, now is obsessed with being the Shadow Broker.

Keeps her busy.

[TheMarshal]

Would you call Miranda obsessed for spending two years putting Shepard back together? Or Garrus obsessed for seeking revenge against the turian who got his crew killed? What about Jack for wanting to blow up the abandoned facility where she was tortured? Or Zaeed for wanting to hunt down Santiago? Samara spent several centuries trying to kill her daughter, maybe she's obsessed?

And what makes you think being an information broker requires social interaction? Are you saying that the Shadow Broker got his start being the town gossip? He seemed to be doing pretty well living on an isolated ship in the middle of nowhere. Who says that Liara couldn't do the same? And she obviously learned guile and street smarts in the two years since Shepard's death. That's the beauty of such single-minded drive. She can learn anything she wants to in pursuit of her goals. And I'm just going to ignore your quip about money. Being the daughter of a wealthy and influential matriarch and running her own digs for half a century obviously means she had no idea about how to deal with money...

Many innocents did get killed in her hunt for the Shadow Broker. But you seem to be intent on blaming their deaths on her regardless of her level of involvement. Suddenly she's responsible for the people dying in the trade center? Really? Responsible for the people the mercs killed in their pursuit of her? Really? And of course she suggested taking advantage of the chaos to sneak off the planet and go after the Shadow Broker. She's going after the Shadow Broker. The people are dead and the building was destroyed and there's not anything that she could have done about it. Was she supposed to stick around and answer questions? Try and help put out fires? Bury corpses? Would that have been a better use of her time?

[dreman9999]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I felt my post in the other thread was so important that it deserved being repeated here.

Liara's writing is atrocious. Her character was completely butchered in the first comic and subsequently in ME2.

Her role in the plot is shoe-horned in and isn't consistent with her character. Nor is her behavior or goals.

In
ME1 Liara was not the kind of person to hold onto a grudge or succumb
to emotions over logic. On the contrary, she was one of the most
mentally stable persons on the team. Does she become bitter and angry if
you don't choose her as a love interest? No, she is hurt initially, but
she moves on and remains friendly and professional. Does she become
filled with hate or grief when you kill her mother, even with her
present? No, she understands why you had to do it and understands how
important the mission is. Liara very quickly makes her peace with it by
remembering the loving mother of her childhood and not the adversary she
was forced to fight against.

Does any of this sound like
somebody who would join forces with an evil human-supremacy organization
to save a lost friend? Does this sound like somebody who would devote
herself to a two-year long quest for revenge, going so far as to abandon
per career and education to support it?

I don't think so. Liara
would have never done any of this. She'd have moved on when Shepard was
killed, romantic partner or not. I highly doubt she'd ever see the price
of working with Cerberus as worth it. Helping Cerberus bring Shepard
back was a selfish decision on her part motivated by extreme emotions,
something very un-Liara like.

Finally, doesn't her role in ME2
feel a little out of place to you? In ME1 we recruited Liara for her
Prothean expertise and then in ME2 we discover the Collectors are
Protheans. Gosh, don't you think that such a revelation might prompt us
to seek out a Prothean expert again? I don't understand it. Liara's role
in ME2 should have been obvious. We should have found her on Ilos
researching the Prothean bunker there and then once we discovered the
truth about the Collectors we should have gone and recruited her for the
mission.

If the developers were so concerned about her dying
then they can just make her un-killable. Or heaven forbid, just
ensivioned a ME3 that might not have Liara in it.

Statements from
Liara's voice actor indicate that the developers were unsure right up
to the last minute about how to handle Liara in ME2. They wrote the game
and then realized they had no place for her (even though her place was
obvious). So they shoe-horned her character into the game and butchered
it in the process.

Even prior to ME2 though, when the Redemption
comic came out, Liara was being butchered. She was never suitable as an
'action girl' in a story. Liara was capable of combat, of-course, but
she was a thoughtful intellectual and compassionate soul who didn't care
for violence. Watching Liara try to act like a commando in ME2 is just
awkward because it doesn't seem natural.

Thank you for your post....Now about the comment about her being the most staple part of the team......

Now add her going behind Sheps back to study about him/her........How much intrest she has in Sheperd .
Cut the naiveity, because no one stays naive forever.
Any you get current Liara.

As for being a shoehorned character....Every character on the team is shoehorned except Kaidien.
Gurris never need to fallow Shep to find Saren.
Tali was not neededto be on the team.
Wrex had no reason to stay after he mad his kill.
Ashley never need to stay on the ship.

[dreman9999]

lolwut666 wrote...

My problem with Liara is not that she is obsessive, but that her obsessiveness - which is an unhealthy character trait in real life - always serves her well, which is proof that she is favored by the plot.

That and how she went from an achaeologist to the best information broker in the galaxy out of nowhere, and how her change in character was less about hardening and more about a complete loss of basic moral values.

A person who was mostly compassionate like her old self would not turn into someone who threatens to flay others alive; who is willing to put others at risk of death to accomplish an objective, and that shows complete disregard for the lives of innocents caught in the crossfire in such a short period.

Serves her well?...I'm sorry but her odsessiveness lost her a boyfriend in my main play through. Also, most people in the science/ reserch field is like this. And don't forget her lack of people skills. She still doesn't have them.

Modifié par dreman9999, 08 mai 2011 - 05:33 .

[dreman9999]

lolwut666 wrote...

My problem with Liara is not that she is obsessive, but that her obsessiveness - which is an unhealthy character trait in real life - always serves her well, which is proof that she is favored by the plot.

That and how she went from an achaeologist to the best information broker in the galaxy out of nowhere, and how her change in character was less about hardening and more about a complete loss of basic moral values.

A person who was mostly compassionate like her old self would not turn into someone who threatens to flay others alive; who is willing to put others at risk of death to accomplish an objective, and that shows complete disregard for the lives of innocents caught in the crossfire in such a short period.

One rule of life...Being amonge wolves change people or bring out their worst traits.

[lolwut666]

@TheMarshal

Miranda was under orders; revenge is palpable and Garrus was not looking for Sidonis for a long time; Jack just found out about the facility; Samara was bound to the justicar code. Zaeed was obsessed, I'll give you that. Going after a corpse is pointless. It just bore fruit because she is a Mary Sue.

It does require social interaction, you simpleton. The Shadow Broker had to negotiate deals himself at times, which required him to sweet-talk his clients, like what he did to Tali. And two years is not enough to become the best in the galaxy at anything, but obviously that's not enough to convince you because you just advocated in favor of her Mary Sue learning powers. Funding her digs while being the daughter of a rich Matriarch just means she knows how to spend money to rent archaeological dig sites.

Yes, she should have at least cleaned up the remaining merc resistance who were sent to kill *her* and were now killing innocents, and see if she could rescue someone. You're advocating in favor of "the ends justify the means".

It's pointless to discuss further because you're either blind by your liking for her or we have very different views of morality, among other things.

Modifié par lolwut666, 08 mai 2011 - 05:39 .

[TheMarshal]

Revenge is palpable when it's not Liara's revenge? Interesting, I'll have to ruminate on that. And Samara was bound to the justicar code only because she became a justicar in pursuit of her daughter. She gave up her entire life to hunt down Morinth. But we'll keep operating under the assumption that such single-minded pursuit of something is a bad thing only when Liara does it.

I think you're confusing unrefined/unpracticed social skills with being stupid. Liara isn't stupid, no matter how much you dislike her. She could have easily learned the ropes of the information brokering business in two years just like she learned how to operate in an Alliance commando unit in a matter of days/weeks. I am curious, though, how she managed to get her start in the brokering business, since it doesn't strike me as something that one just falls into.

How many mercs do you think were still left after taking down Vasir? Seems to me that between her and Shepard, all the mercs at the trade center were taken out, and after the 3-4 transport shuttles, there weren't any at all in/around Azure. But we'll go ahead and assume that these mercs were just going around killing innocents once they realized their job had failed and Vasir was dead.

You complain that the ends don't justify the means? Then how did you make it out of ME1? I figure you would have just been stopped cold by some of the decisions you had to make. Did you let the council die so that the fleet could focus on Sovereign? Or did you sacrifice hundreds of human lives to save them? Whose deaths were unjustified in that one?

And if you don't want to discuss things further, if you're resorting to name calling and making up facts because you're having trouble actually keeping the arguments coming, then go right ahead. The simple matter is that you're not willing to believe some of the things Bioware is asking you to, while you're perfectly happy to accept others. Shepard is the ultimate Mary Sue here, which makes sense because it's a video game with Shepard as the main protagonist. Shepard gets tapped as a potential Spectre despite a potentially spotty background, trips the one working Prothean beacon in the galaxy on his first mission, then just so happens to stumble across someone who has proof that Saren is a traitor (good thing they were on the Citadel!). The rest of the NPC's have their own unbelievable events too (Garrus surviving against the collective merc forces on Omega with nothing but a sniper rifle and stims; Jack taking out a handful of Ymir mechs on her own; etc.) It's a video game, what do you want? The story has to be progressed.

Modifié par TheMarshal, 08 mai 2011 - 06:02 .

[lolwut666]

@TheMarshal

I'm not criticizing Liara's revenge. You put words in my mouth and you said I'm the one fabricating facts? Hypocrite.

I said that it was not palpable to look for a corpse.

And no, it does not make sense to learn the ropes to extent she did, no matter how much you'd like to believe that for the sake of protecting your favorite character.

Liara said HERSELF that there were still mercs around. She said that they should take the opportunity to bail out while they were being held back by the chaos. And when the job is to kill someone, it does not fail because some of your friends died.

There was no choice there in the situation you mentioned. Liara had a choice. She choose to take the easy path.

And the simple matter is that you're a fanboy, because you claim I'm making up facts when I'm not, and you're using troll logic to justify things that obiously do not make sense, like gaining skills as the plot demands.

And it doesn't matter if Shepard is a Mary Sue, because this is about Liara, and saying that "well, it's OK for Liara to be such a crappy character because there's an even worse character out there" is the weakest argument ever.

If I'm gonna bail out of this, it's because talking with you is akin to trying to teach math to a door.

[Pups_of_war_76]

dreman9999 wrote...

 I never understand is why Liara fans are blind to her obsessive character traits in ME1 and fallow her to ME2.

*snip*

Oh, I think most of us acknowledge the fact that she tends toward the obsessive, it's just that we also see more to the character. Frankly it's far from the worst psychological quirk Shepard runs into, and makes for an interesting and seldom-explored character flaw.

It's not that we don't see it so much as that we don't see it as debilitating.

Modifié par Pups_of_war_76, 08 mai 2011 - 06:19 .