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[dreman9999]

lolwut666 wrote...

@TheMarshal

I'm not criticizing Liara's revenge. You put words in my mouth and you said I'm the one fabricating facts? Hypocrite.

I said that it was not palpable to look for a corpse.

And no, it does not make sense to learn the ropes to extent she did, no matter how much you'd like to believe that for the sake of protecting your favorite character.

Liara said HERSELF that there were still mercs around. She said that they should take the opportunity to bail out while they were being held back by the chaos. And when the job is to kill someone, it does not fail because some of your friends died.

There was no choice there in the situation you mentioned. Liara had a choice. She choose to take the easy path.

And the simple matter is that you're a fanboy, because you claim I'm making up facts when I'm not, and you're using troll logic to justify things that obiously do not make sense, like gaining skills as the plot demands.

And it doesn't matter if Shepard is a Mary Sue, because this is about Liara, and saying that "well, it's OK for Liara to be such a crappy character because there's an even worse character out there" is the weakest argument ever.

If I'm gonna bail out of this, it's because talking with you is akin to trying to teach math to a door.

Ok ..Lets go back to our original post.....
You said.....

 My problem with Liara is not that she is obsessive, but that her obsessiveness - which is an unhealthy character trait in real life - always serves her well, which is proof that she is favored by the plot.

That and how she went from an achaeologist to the best information broker in the galaxy out of nowhere, and how her change in character was less about hardening and more about a complete loss of basic moral values.

A person who was mostly compassionate like her old self would not turn into someone who threatens to flay others alive; who is willing to put others at risk of death to accomplish an objective, and that shows complete disregard for the lives of innocents caught in the crossfire in such a short period.....

But you forgeting on major thing .......Achaeoligy is just research..... You just go to place of old, trace back steps to see when and where everything is from and make many cross referances. It about narrowing down info..... This is the samething used for being an infomation broker. It all about find theplace of origin and all the full infromation. Liara already has the skills, it was the drive that she needed. What She need to learn was to be ruthless. This change happean when Sheperd die and she was givin a chance to bring him/her back...

As her being compassionate......I never saw this. She was a person who cut herself off from the world. Shewas nice....but that wasbecause she was meek....You never meet a mean meek person. She was a type of person who talked on the side but never acted. I don't see that as compassion.

[corporal doody]

again with the corpse hunting. The Alliance recovered most of the bodies from the Normandy crash site. IF SHEPARD's was there they would have recovered it too. Witnesses saw Shepard spaced so he was considered KIA even when a body wasnt recovered. In most cases if no one saw him spaced/lost at sea he would be classified as MIA or presumed deceased. If the alliance had better intel they would have gone after the body themselves. Once that KIA was slapped on Shep...Case was closed. The bureaucratic hamster has to hop on the red tape wheel in order for them to first investigate the possibility that Shep was not dead or a body was recoverable...then they would have to determine the best way of recovering the body. That takes time. The alliance members of the former Normandy would have already split up or moved on to other positions. Garrus did the C-Sec/spectre training thing till he got bored and went Death Wish...and Tali did her gypsy thing. Liara was not bound by any organizations or obligations outside of what she set for herself. Upon hearing the rumor (conveniently dropped by Cerberus or not) she acted..no one else was going to. Perhaps she felt obligated to...doesnt matter...it was written by the people that created Mass Effect that she did it. Why, exactly, has been left to our interpretations. You think it whacky...i think it makes sense. You dont like her cuz she is "crazy and a mary sue" that's your bag baby. I think she is a good character...and if you can say she is badly written the same can be said about everything else...personal preference and what not.

but he blocked me:( he wont read it and that makes me a sad panda

Modifié par corporal doody, 08 mai 2011 - 06:37 .

[dreman9999]

corporal doody wrote...

again with the corpse hunting. The Alliance recovered most of the bodies from the Normandy crash site. IF SHEPARD's was there they would have recovered it too. Witnesses saw Shepard spaced so he was considered KIA even when a body wasnt recovered. In most cases if no one saw him spaced/lost at sea he would be classified as MIA or presumed deceased. If the alliance had better intel they would have gone after the body themselves. Once that KIA was slapped on Shep...Case was closed. The bureaucratic hamster has to hop on the red tape wheel in order for them to first investigate the possibility that Shep was not dead or a body was recoverable...then they would have to determine the best way of recovering the body. That takes time. The alliance members of the former Normandy would have already split up or moved on to other positions. Garrus did the C-Sec/spectre training thing till he got bored and went Death Wish...and Tali did her gypsy thing. Liara was not bound by any organizations or obligations outside of what she set for herself. Upon hearing the rumor (conveniently dropped by Cerberus or not) she acted..no one else was going to. Perhaps she felt obligated to...doesnt matter...it was written by the people that created Mass Effect that she did it. Why, exactly, has been left to our interpretations. You think it whacky...i think it makes sense. You dont like her cuz she is "crazy and a mary sue" that's your bag baby. I think she is a good character...and if you can say she is badly written the same can be said about everything else...personal preference and what not.

but he blocked me:( he wont read it and that makes me a sad panda

1. I never said I hated her, I just pointing how her character growth in ME2 is obvious and in the right direction.
2.The whole bureacy thing was the problem and made the alliance to slow to act.
3.Anyone could of done it. Liara did it because she did fell very close to Sheperd.

I don't hate her as a character, I fact I like her very much...So much that I have a Sheperd dedicated to loving her. I just was to point out a big detail in her character so people can see it.

[TheMarshal]

@lolwut666

Your continued insistence on using personal attacks isn't helping your cause, whatever it may be.

I still don't understand why you have such a hard time believing that Liara would be looking for Shepard's corpse. Whether or not she was romanced, Shepard was still an important figure in her life, and she sees how important a figure Shepard is to the rest of the galaxy. So while other asari her age are shaking their asses in bars or running around with merc bands, she's out looking for the body of the savior of the Citadel. Sure, she could go back to studying the Protheans, but knowing that the Reapers wiped them out suddenly makes her expertise in their extinction somewhat... unimportant.

Of course you would still probably call that decision somewhat Mary Sue-ish, which seems to be your main problem with Liara despite the fact that all of the characters in Mass Effect have - at one point or another - done the 'impossible' for the sake of advancing the plot. I'm not saying that Shepard is a crappy character. Nor am I trying to deny that Liara's defining characteristics aren't there to move the plot along. That's kind of the point of a character in a video game. Ash survives the geth attack so she can point you in the direction of the beacon and explain what's going on just like Tali's there to give you the evidence against Saren and get you inducted as a Spectre just like Liara goes off to find your corpse so that Mass Effect 2 can happen.

Call me a fanboy if you think it stings me. I write fanfiction, so I've come to terms with how much I enjoy this game and these characters. I like them all and would defend any one of them. I don't blindly demand that someone agrees with me or insist that they're a troll if they disagree with me. I like hearing people who have different perspectives on these characters, even those that dislike the characters, because it helps me better define what it is about them that I like. I want to hear from people whose Shepards developed friendships with Miranda rather than romanced her. I want to hear from people who decided they couldn't justify opening up Grunt's stasis pod. I would like to hear from someone who doesn't/never did trust Liara, didn't like her, and how they would explain her seeking out Shepard's corpse.

Unfortunately all I've seen is blind, seething hatred and the desire to shoot Liara before she can become the Shadow Broker. It's not terribly interesting or constructive.

Modifié par TheMarshal, 08 mai 2011 - 06:56 .

[corporal doody]

that wasnt addressed for you dreman9999 it was for lolwut.

Imagine if you will....you are in in a Bus full of friends and loved ones. You get in a horrific accident where some die, but you somehow survive with no physical damage. Most got out and trying to go about their lives even as news of a recovery operation is underway. You hear that one of your loved one's bodies was seen as it was thrown from the Bus but they could not recover it. You later hear that a group of individuals HAVE that body and plan on doing bad stuff to it. The information is vague but gives you possible location of where to find them and the body in the IMMEDIATE FUTURE.  Are you going to kick back and say "thats just the body of my dead grandmother, let someong else worry bout it," "it is just a meat bag, i cant do it", or you going to say, "That is Grandma Emily, i have to act now or we may never get HER back."?  substitute Grandma for a lover, good friend, or compatriot whom you have great respect for...if you feel so inclined

Honor isnt just for the living. To allow the desecration and mutilation of someone whom we know by someone else would be a disservice to whom that individual was and will forever be....in our memories.

Modifié par corporal doody, 08 mai 2011 - 08:53 .

[kumquats]

For me Redemption and the whole recover Shepards corpse arc wasn't very well done, mostly I see Liaras character as a victim of the ME2 plot. She had to recover it so we could play the game.
And I always choose to argue with her in ME2 and tell her she is obsessed with her hunt.

But I really liked LotSB DLC, they braught the character back with Shepard to an almost normal level.
I think without her flaws, which Liara clearly has, I wouldn't like her at all.

To me she is a very focust person, who can get lost to the real world if she puts her mind on something. After she learns of the Protheans fate, her new focus is Shepard.
I believe Shepard is the balance Liara needs. Like Mulder and Scully:

"The end of my world was unrecognizable and upside down. There was one thing that remained the same. You were my friend, and you told me the truth. Even when the world was falling apart, you were my constant. My touchstone."

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I felt my post in the other thread was so important that it deserved being repeated here.

Liara's writing is atrocious. Her character was completely butchered in the first comic and subsequently in ME2.

Her role in the plot is shoe-horned in and isn't consistent with her character. Nor is her behavior or goals.

In
ME1 Liara was not the kind of person to hold onto a grudge or succumb
to emotions over logic. On the contrary, she was one of the most
mentally stable persons on the team. Does she become bitter and angry if
you don't choose her as a love interest? No, she is hurt initially, but
she moves on and remains friendly and professional. Does she become
filled with hate or grief when you kill her mother, even with her
present? No, she understands why you had to do it and understands how
important the mission is. Liara very quickly makes her peace with it by
remembering the loving mother of her childhood and not the adversary she
was forced to fight against.

Does any of this sound like
somebody who would join forces with an evil human-supremacy organization
to save a lost friend? Does this sound like somebody who would devote
herself to a two-year long quest for revenge, going so far as to abandon
per career and education to support it?

I don't think so. Liara
would have never done any of this. She'd have moved on when Shepard was
killed, romantic partner or not. I highly doubt she'd ever see the price
of working with Cerberus as worth it. Helping Cerberus bring Shepard
back was a selfish decision on her part motivated by extreme emotions,
something very un-Liara like.

Finally, doesn't her role in ME2
feel a little out of place to you? In ME1 we recruited Liara for her
Prothean expertise and then in ME2 we discover the Collectors are
Protheans. Gosh, don't you think that such a revelation might prompt us
to seek out a Prothean expert again? I don't understand it. Liara's role
in ME2 should have been obvious. We should have found her on Ilos
researching the Prothean bunker there and then once we discovered the
truth about the Collectors we should have gone and recruited her for the
mission.

If the developers were so concerned about her dying
then they can just make her un-killable. Or heaven forbid, just
ensivioned a ME3 that might not have Liara in it.

Statements from
Liara's voice actor indicate that the developers were unsure right up
to the last minute about how to handle Liara in ME2. They wrote the game
and then realized they had no place for her (even though her place was
obvious). So they shoe-horned her character into the game and butchered
it in the process.

Even prior to ME2 though, when the Redemption
comic came out, Liara was being butchered. She was never suitable as an
'action girl' in a story. Liara was capable of combat, of-course, but
she was a thoughtful intellectual and compassionate soul who didn't care
for violence. Watching Liara try to act like a commando in ME2 is just
awkward because it doesn't seem natural.

Well, Saphra. We agree on something here .

Redemption utterly destroyed Liara's character. I am not a fan of her personality in ME1, but then she becomes the absolute opposite in ME2 and the comic. I really wish they had been consistent with Liara.

But I much prefer Samara.

[sponge56]

lolwut666 wrote...

@TheMarshal

I'm not criticizing Liara's revenge. You put words in my mouth and you said I'm the one fabricating facts? Hypocrite.

I said that it was not palpable to look for a corpse.

And no, it does not make sense to learn the ropes to extent she did, no matter how much you'd like to believe that for the sake of protecting your favorite character.

Liara said HERSELF that there were still mercs around. She said that they should take the opportunity to bail out while they were being held back by the chaos. And when the job is to kill someone, it does not fail because some of your friends died.

There was no choice there in the situation you mentioned. Liara had a choice. She choose to take the easy path.

And the simple matter is that you're a fanboy, because you claim I'm making up facts when I'm not, and you're using troll logic to justify things that obiously do not make sense, like gaining skills as the plot demands.

And it doesn't matter if Shepard is a Mary Sue, because this is about Liara, and saying that "well, it's OK for Liara to be such a crappy character because there's an even worse character out there" is the weakest argument ever.

If I'm gonna bail out of this, it's because talking with you is akin to trying to teach math to a door.

mate, chill out.  Liara is a fictional character in a fictional universe.  People have different views on characters, eg) I think the character of Othello from Shakespeares play is an incompetent tool, but that doesn't mean I call people simpletons etc if they disagree with me. On the merc topic it makes perfect sense to slip away while the mercs are shooting up the place, you leave because it gives you an oppurtunity to get out without drawing any more attention to yourself.  Shepard even chastises Liara for being cold on this if you take the paragon interupt, but not on her actions, but about the words she uses. And on the 'learning the ropes' argument, as someone has already pointed out both archealogy and the gathering of information are similar subjects with similar skills.  The only thing that changes is that she becomes driven to take down the shadow broker, as she was driven about almost everything else she has done

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

(For the record, I also see Othello as an incompetent fool. And Iago is a freaking genius.)

But yeah, when it comes to characters, I guess people just have to agree to disagree.

[GuardianAngel470]

lolwut666 wrote...

My problem with Liara is not that she is obsessive, but that her obsessiveness - which is an unhealthy character trait in real life - always serves her well, which is proof that she is favored by the plot.

That and how she went from an achaeologist to the best information broker in the galaxy out of nowhere, and how her change in character was less about hardening and more about a complete loss of basic moral values.

A person who was mostly compassionate like her old self would not turn into someone who threatens to flay others alive; who is willing to put others at risk of death to accomplish an objective, and that shows complete disregard for the lives of innocents caught in the crossfire in such a short period.

On the contrary, a certain level of obsessiveness is actually something you find in almost everyone who is successful. Bill Gates, Steve Jobs *cringe*, Sidney Crosby, and tons of other people. Perfectionism isn't a character flaw, neither is tenacity, both of which fall snugly under "obsessive".

And she learned from the best when it comes to flaying people alive. Shepard didn't exactly go around giving Mercs hugs and sugar cookies to make them go away. S/he killed and killed without mercy (game mechanic but still). She may not have been the type to kill people when you rescued her from Therum but by the end of ME1 she knows that violence is a means to an end, not just a means of self defense.

Her going after Shepard's body isn't the least bit unbelievable. Her entire conversation on Illium always felt forced, she always felt like she was trying to fill shoes she wasn't born to fill though, so I tend to view her behavior as a fish out of water type of situation. She's doing the best she can to achieve goals that she's set for herself but the means she's using are ones she's not designed to do.

Being a mastermind type of character as the SB makes a lot more sense than an information broker upstart who actually has to threaten people personally. She's still unconfortable around people in my opinion and the use of Benezia's line further illustrates that.

She can't come up with something on her own so she copies someone who was evil. And she even messes it up by saying the "Flay you alive" line because it sounds so comical and no one would realistically be afraid of it.

[GuardianAngel470]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

(For the record, I also see Othello as an incompetent fool. And Iago is a freaking genius.)

But yeah, when it comes to characters, I guess people just have to agree to disagree.

For the record, Othello was a fool and Iago was a completely unrealistic, omniscient adversary. His demise was contrived and felt completely unbelievable due to how powerful and omniscient he was throughout the story.

That whole play was terrible. No one reacted realistically, they all fell into every trap, believed every lie, as if they were born yesterday.

And no, I have no idea why we're talking about Othello.

[sponge56]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

(For the record, I also see Othello as an incompetent fool. And Iago is a freaking genius.)

But yeah, when it comes to characters, I guess people just have to agree to disagree.

For the record, Othello was a fool and Iago was a completely unrealistic, omniscient adversary. His demise was contrived and felt completely unbelievable due to how powerful and omniscient he was throughout the story.

That whole play was terrible. No one reacted realistically, they all fell into every trap, believed every lie, as if they were born yesterday.

And no, I have no idea why we're talking about Othello.

we arent, I used it as an example and all Tasha did was agree with me about my use of that example. and BOOOO:pinched: to your opinion of Othello (the play, not the character). I disagree entirely, but of course, this isnt a shakespeare discussion forum so I shall let it drop 

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

And this comparison proves that some people don't like characters like Liara and others do. Hehe.

I think that she had some bad writing. Too inconsistent, and yes, she was obsessive. But pursuing something with a fervour means determination which can be a good thing.

I just wish she wasn't obsessed with Shepard...

[dreman9999]

corporal doody wrote...

that wasnt addressed for you dreman9999 it was for lolwut.

Imagine if you will....you are in in a Bus full of friends and loved ones. You get in a horrific accident where some die, but you somehow survive with no physical damage. Most got out and trying to go about their lives even as news of a recovery operation is underway. You hear that one of your loved one's bodies was seen as it was thrown from the Bus but they could not recover it. You later hear that a group of individuals HAVE that body and plan on doing bad stuff to it. The information is vague but gives you possible location of where to find them and the body in the IMMEDIATE FUTURE.  Are you going to kick back and say "thats just the body of my dead grandmother, let someong else worry bout it," "it is just a meat bag, i cant do it", or you going to say, "That is Grandma Emily, i have to act now or we may never get HER back."?  substitute Grandma for a lover, good friend, or compatriot whom you have great respect for...if you feel so inclined

Honor isnt just for the living. To allow the desecration and mutilation of someone whom we know by someone else would be a disservice to whom that individual was and will forever be....in our memories.

I know that's why I didn't respond. I understand what you mean, but in the end.......(Flame sheild up) It just a dead body.....If I was dead, and someone had my body and was doing bad stuff it it...I would not care because I'm dead and I would rather have my love one leave my dead body behind and not risk getting back..

[dreman9999]

sponge56 wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

@TheMarshal

I'm not criticizing Liara's revenge. You put words in my mouth and you said I'm the one fabricating facts? Hypocrite.

I said that it was not palpable to look for a corpse.

And no, it does not make sense to learn the ropes to extent she did, no matter how much you'd like to believe that for the sake of protecting your favorite character.

Liara said HERSELF that there were still mercs around. She said that they should take the opportunity to bail out while they were being held back by the chaos. And when the job is to kill someone, it does not fail because some of your friends died.

There was no choice there in the situation you mentioned. Liara had a choice. She choose to take the easy path.

And the simple matter is that you're a fanboy, because you claim I'm making up facts when I'm not, and you're using troll logic to justify things that obiously do not make sense, like gaining skills as the plot demands.

And it doesn't matter if Shepard is a Mary Sue, because this is about Liara, and saying that "well, it's OK for Liara to be such a crappy character because there's an even worse character out there" is the weakest argument ever.

If I'm gonna bail out of this, it's because talking with you is akin to trying to teach math to a door.

mate, chill out.  Liara is a fictional character in a fictional universe.  People have different views on characters, eg) I think the character of Othello from Shakespeares play is an incompetent tool, but that doesn't mean I call people simpletons etc if they disagree with me. On the merc topic it makes perfect sense to slip away while the mercs are shooting up the place, you leave because it gives you an oppurtunity to get out without drawing any more attention to yourself.  Shepard even chastises Liara for being cold on this if you take the paragon interupt, but not on her actions, but about the words she uses. And on the 'learning the ropes' argument, as someone has already pointed out both archealogy and the gathering of information are similar subjects with similar skills.  The only thing that changes is that she becomes driven to take down the shadow broker, as she was driven about almost everything else she has done

Yes, she did become cold........It's all about harding her up.....
And if you really thing about it, If everyone in Othello talked to one another instead of jumping to concussions, everyone would of been fine.....I blame the chathlic church.(And Iago.)

[dreman9999]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

And this comparison proves that some people don't like characters like Liara and others do. Hehe.

I think that she had some bad writing. Too inconsistent, and yes, she was obsessive. But pursuing something with a fervour means determination which can be a good thing.

I just wish she wasn't obsessed with Shepard...

As I pointed out, she's not inconsistent, she's just made by the event around her.

[V-rex]

For me the problem isn't so much the implication that she's obsessed.
It's the fact that no one on the writing team ever thought about the actions she does in the game story and how they may act with the consistency of how a player will interact with that story.

By which I mean, no matter how Shepard treated her in Mass Effect 1, the story still tells of how she went on an epic quest to save his/her body.

Think about this for a second.
A friend of mine once did an all out renegade playthrough and he basically made poor little Liara his primary victim. He was rude to her, mean to her, racist, aggressive, dismissive, unkind, insensitive about her mother's death, uncaring, condescending... essentially as bad as it was possible to be to Liara, he was.
He was just as bad to everyone else of course but Liara had it special.

So with that in mind when he stuck in Mass Effect 2 and was greeted with a hug and would later discover that Liara risked her life and limb to save her 'dear friend Commander Shepard' from the Collectors.... well that kind of shocked him.
Then he played Lair of the Shadow Broker and got about as far as the bit where he saw the piece of N7 armor in her apartment before deciding this girl was nuts.
A super masochist who mistakes cruelty for affection and is ready to risk her life to do huge favors for people who don't even care she's alive.

It's hard to have both a major connecting storyline and try to center the plot around what each individual player wants it to be. Because things clash sometimes and unfortunatley in this case made Liara look pretty bad.
You can't tell every player that they get to 'make the story their own' and then make your own story to go along with it. Because it leaves bad results and now and forever more in my friend's Mass Effect universe Liara T'soni is an abused underappreciated girl who took it and liked it, enough to want to risk her life to save the person who didn't care enough about her in the first place.

For what it's worth I don't have a problem with Liara as a whole. I did find her affection towards me in Mass Effect 1 very annoying and I didn't like how the game couldn't stop shoving 'Liara is totally awesome' in my face in Mass Effect 2. But for what it's worth her fanbase has some decent people in it and she's hard to actively hate.
But for the record no, I didn't like how they handled a really obsessive personality and treated it like it was loyalty and devotion and nobility.
Because as the example above shows, with the wrong context that whole image crumbles into horrible pieces.

Modifié par V-rex, 08 mai 2011 - 03:12 .

[corporal doody]

one of the things i dont think any of us brought up was her age.106. a child by ASARI standards. she is MATURE physically....but not mentally. Rambunctious,exuberant, over zealous, or foolhardy would be a more fitting terms than obsessive. focused to the point of tunnel-vision?
as stated earlier (this topic or the other semi-hate liara thread)...she emulates individuals she has associated with...because her knowledge of social interaction is based off what she learned from them. child would do the same thing.

Modifié par corporal doody, 08 mai 2011 - 05:11 .

[naledgeborn]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Obsessive? Nah. That old N7 armor in her apartment was probably just something she stumbled upon.

This. Liara is borderline nuts. The only justification for this type of behavior is to handwave it as a "bond" forged through the Prothean mind sex in ME1

Edit: Also "But I'm so close Shepard!" She sounds like a red sand fiend looking for a fix.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 08 mai 2011 - 05:12 .

[corporal doody]

mrsph wrote...

Liara is starting to border on Sue territory.

then Shep is Jesus and deus ex machina incarnate
what is Tali and the rest of the crew then?

[corporal doody]

mrsph wrote...

corporal doody wrote...

then Shep is Jesus and deus ex machina incarnate
what is Tali and the rest of the crew then?

Oh, Shepard is definately a Mary Sue. But s/he is the PC so that is excuseable.

i can live with that.

therefore....everyother character in the game exist only to add to OUR character...nothing more.
character action outside of that is irrelavant

Modifié par corporal doody, 08 mai 2011 - 05:17 .

[kumquats]

corporal doody wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Liara is starting to border on Sue territory.

then Shep is Jesus and deus ex machina incarnate
what is Tali and the rest of the crew then?

They are the Justice League! Because Garrus obviously Batman.

[corporal doody]

Tali as wonder woman? HAHAHA no....just no. Miranda and Jack as Hawk and Dove. Mordin as Martian Manhunter. Samara as a Green Lantern. Joker as the Flash. Jacob would be Robin...he doesnt rate Nightwing at the moment.