382 réponses à ce sujet

[Chugster]

Ive been on these forums for quite a while now and like all of you ive seen all these posts screaming about how BW have screwed up with DA2....we all knew how the game played from a technical POV from the demo

But what i havent seen much of are actual facts as to why....there are plenty of opinions based on taste, but aside from the repetitive dungeons, i havent seen anything factual about this game being bad...nothing that ruins gameplay form a technical standpoint

so if you can, please give me facts that people agree on as to what makes this game technically bad....and it cant be something that someone has said that they have liked anywhere on these forums...so no combat (it works, whether you like it or not) or the dialogue wheel (has same number of choices as old system) and no story (again this is all a matter of taste)

[MorrigansLove]

Re-used areas ruining the immersion!

That is all.

[Chugster]

ok thats one...any more

[MorrigansLove]

I also thought the story was ass, but can't really talk about that in a No Spoilers section.

[0x30A88]

- Unbalanced AI. Enemies being really slow and stupid, Origins was way better in this regard, as enemy AI was similiar to party members -- the same basically. But now they're just two moves and gimped basic moves.
- Waves, not inheretly bad, but used in 99% of battles and non-demons/spirits spawning out of thin air.
- Over the top. Serious RPG players do not want excess bloodsplatter and greatswords swung like toothpicks, even though Origins' animations might have been too slow on occation.
- Recycling, ya know, the caves.
- Unpolished -- release bugs, fixed after most initial customers lost interest in the game.
- No scent of a toolset comming.
- Little choise and ways this can turn out, rendering replayabillity low.
- Rushed, 1.5 year -- or 2 -- is too little for an RPG. 3 at least is advisable.

Not a bad game -- played it through three times and enjoyed it --, but it has severe flaws. Very good to be a studio's worst game.

Modifié par Gisle Aune, 08 mai 2011 - 10:40 .

[AkiKishi]

Guys in plate falling from the sky.

[Sabriana]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Guys in plate falling from the sky.

This. And not hurting themselves terribly when landing. Spiders dropping out of nothing but clear blue sky as well.

Templars doing backflips in full plate.

Teleporting enemy mages when previous lore states that there was no such thing as teleporting in Thedas (unless that was supposed to mean they went into stealth, which is equally wrong for a mage.

A city that doesn't change over the course of 7+ years, even though it had major disruptions. Merchants don't move an inch, chance neither clothes nor displays.

NPCs don't move or react to their surroundings, fireballs, arrows, bolts and piles of trash mob corpses be damned.

Guards/Templars don't react to fights, even when their own superior (guards) is involved in the fight.

The only really visible new thing being a statue of some impostor claiming to have slewn the Arishok because that statue looked nothing like either one of the Hawke I played with.

[Firefeng]

- Over the top. Serious RPG players do not want excess bloodsplatter and greatswords swung like toothpicks, even though Origins' animations might have been too slow on occation.

This is the only gripe I have with your post, since it isn't necessarily factual.  I, for one, welcomed the fact that over-sized 2-handed weapons weren't being lugged around and swung at a snail's pace like the unwieldy, unrealistic weapons they are.  (Hell, in the real world, some Japanese daikatanas required two people to wield them...terribly unfun, that.)  As part of playing a fantasy game, I understood that some things are going to be fantastical, and there's a damn good reason why a lot of people never bothered with 2-handed characters in DA:O.  It just isn't fun to be sluggish and unreactive--that, and after a while most people caught on to the brokenness of dual wielding warriors and haste.  

I'm with you on the Nutella corpse-explosions, though.  I say mostly because gibbing would have made a little sense in the context of a devastating Warrior/Mage attack, but against a Rogue's daggers?  Not so much.  What Bioware should've done was add contextual deathblows dependent on the class.  A warrior's deathblow shouldn't do the same as a rogue's (IT'S SPELLED "ROGUE", FOR THE LOVE OF GOD; "ROUGE" IS !$^%ING MAKEUP), which shouldn't be the same as a mage's, etc., etc.  

I agree with the rest of your points, though.  In regards to my complaints about the game, the only thing "factual" I have that detracts from the game is the ultimate impotence of the character.  Sure, we can affect our companions and how some characters' stories play out, but we can rarely affect how said stories end, and the ones we do have control over rarely feel relevant to the universe at all.  For example, an option to talk [ENDGAME BOSS REDACTED] down from their psychosis instead of fighting them head-on, a la ME1's boss (which was an awesome encounter, by the way) would have helped, as well as personal decisions affecting [MAGE SUB-BOSS NAME REDACTED] decision to turn into a corpulent fleshlord.

Ultimately, Bioware crafted a game that allows people to express their aesthetic tastes, with no ability to affect the plot.  In 99% of other, non-Bioware games, you get what you pay for in terms of story choice, in that you have next to none.  Bioware, however, has its own special formula for choice in games, and it's one they abandoned for this game, which is why, in conjunction with some of the rushed development and...questionable gameplay choices, they're catching so much flak from the community.  I doubt people would have complained with such fiery obstinancy had they been given the same amount of choice as is present in most other Bioware games.

Edit:  Oh, and bugs.  Can't forget the bugs.  My first rogue Hawke swings like a slug drowning in molasses.  Terrible, that.

Modifié par Firefeng, 08 mai 2011 - 11:12 .

[AkiKishi]

Ememies that look like they are made from lego when killed. Even the hair comes off.

[Sabriana]

Oh. Forgot one of my personal favorites

Apostates going full blast nuts and attacking Hawke as soon as they see her for being a "templar tool" even though she supported the mage cause all game long, often at great risk to her and her companions.

Mages going "blergh, argh" abomination when given so much as a questioning look. (Yeah it's exaggerated, but after playing for a while it became very tiresome. No mage is apparently capable of resolving things with magic or any other means.

My absolute favorite (not):

MageHawke. An unharrowed, illegal, refugee, p!ss-poor apostate (act I) can run around in full mage regalia and use magic with reckless abandon, while other mages can't so much as twitch wrong and are in danger of being killed on the spot or made tranquil for the silliest of reasons (Karl, Starkhaven mages, Ella, Feynriel, etc.)

[Morroian]

Hmm funny, the OP asked for factual responses, all of the responses apart from the recycled areas have been entirely subjective, and maybe the criticism of mage Hawke not facing sanctions on his/her use of magic as well.

[0x30A88]

Morroian wrote...

Hmm funny, the OP asked for factual responses, all of the responses apart from the recycled areas have been entirely subjective, and maybe the criticism of mage Hawke not facing sanctions on his/her use of magic as well.

What in my post is sbujective? I listed things breaking immersion and gameplay, as well as other things hurting the quality of the game.

[nopho]

Morroian wrote...

Hmm funny, the OP asked for factual responses, all of the responses apart from the recycled areas have been entirely subjective, and maybe the criticism of mage Hawke not facing sanctions on his/her use of magic as well.

because it is a tricky question.
show the game a billion people and i bet any sum you want with you that there will be people who actually like the recycling of areas, who say that it is an artistic way of bioware to point out that all fantasy-rpgs usually follow the same recipe and are thus all the same while DA2 offeres another approach and that we the mortals are just to stupid to see that.

if you ask for facts about something thats a matter of taste, like a game/movie/book/music then you can always dismiss 99% of those claims (which i, to a degree, think the OP wants to do)

what you can do is list things that you think are bad in the POV of most thoughtful people.

[Kilshrek]

Weapons,
Big sword Ridiculously large swords, with links to others Mauls

Do any of these weapons seem like the type to be swung casually, like they were a stage prop?

Waves,

A terrible mechanic, largely negating the need for tactics because once you've dealt with the first batch of foes, they spawn from all around you and then it becomes a free for all. Your mage and archer suffer the most because of Fortitude, forcing your melee characters to give up fighting at the "front" to come back and cover the squishies, because they done got flanked. Flanked not because you took a crap on your tactics, but because the game took a crap on your tactics.

[Chugster]

basically im trying to show just how much of the 'hatred' towards DA2 and BW is pretty baseless...BW made a game...their game...and aside from taste issues there isnt much wrong with it...and i wish all these people would see it, shut up and go back to DAO or whatever and stop making me feel bad for enjoying a game

[Sabriana]

Chugster wrote...

basically im trying to show just how much of the 'hatred' towards DA2 and BW is pretty baseless...BW made a game...their game...and aside from taste issues there isnt much wrong with it...and i wish all these people would see it, shut up and go back to DAO or whatever and stop making me feel bad for enjoying a game

There is no way to "shut" these people up. You say there isn't much wrong with it, other say there is. Your opinion is worth as much as other people's opinion. Not more not less.

All that is listed is present in the game and can be seen by all. Those items bother a lot of people, as you can see in all the "constructive criticism" threads. They should not be ignored, because they constitute feedback. I've paid a lot of money for the game, and that gives me right to criticise as well as praise.

If you like the game, I'm happy for you. I mean that sincerely. You should not be made feel bad for liking it. But if you wanted to teach all of us who did find flaws in greater or lesser extends a "lesson", then that was doomed to fail right from the start.

You might enjoy static cities, teleporting mages. magePCs that are handwaved in a story whose major plot-line is templar vs mage, etc. but many others don't. What you managed to do is simply having people point out happenstances in the game that they see as failures. To me, personally, they are failures as well. To you they are not. Neither one of us is wrong or right.

Opinions are tossed around as facts on both sides. Those opinions are based on what is present in the game most of the time. I didn't hate it. I found it average, and overpriced for its averageness. I have a right to that opinion. You love the game and you too have a right to do just that, and voice your opinion about it.

Stop trying to tell other people what to do and what to like. You don't have the right to do that. On the other hand, nobody has the right to tell you that you should feel bad for loving the game. It works both ways.

Modifié par Sabriana, 08 mai 2011 - 12:31 .

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

I'd add lack of NPC interaction and shallow party companion develoment. The banter was great but many characters came across as one trick ponies. Isabela always about sex, Anders always about the mage/templar conflict etc.

I just replayed Redcliffe in DAO. There was more interaction in that one village than all of Kirkwall.

basically im trying to show just how much of the 'hatred' towards DA2 and BW is pretty baseless...BW made a game...their game...and aside from taste issues there isnt much wrong with it...and i wish all these people would see it, shut up and go back to DAO or whatever and stop making me feel bad for enjoying a game

So you are trying to get people to feel bad for NOT liking it?

For the record, I did like parts of it. Other parts felt unfinished and rushed. Act 3 being the glaring example. As someone else said, supporting the mages is not acknowledged in the game. The part leading up to the confrontation with Grace was all 'He's suppporting ***! get him' (trying to avoid spoilers lol) when in fact I wasn't.

[nopho]

Chugster wrote...

basically im trying to show just how much of the 'hatred' towards DA2 and BW is pretty baseless...BW made a game...their game...and aside from taste issues there isnt much wrong with it...and i wish all these people would see it, shut up and go back to DAO or whatever and stop making me feel bad for enjoying a game

from you point of view, i hope you never complained about any book, movie, music, fashion, tvshow, politival decision and what the whoopdy doodle else.

in what way is me not likeing a game which others might like baseless? i said it before, take the worst mainstream movie you have ever seen (battlefield earth here, or catwoman) and you will still find people who like it.
i wish you would see that (it), shut up and go back to DA2 or whatever.
(no offense intended, just useing your words, if you feel bad for playing a game you like just because others do not like it than an internet forum is SO the wrong place for you)

Modifié par nopho, 08 mai 2011 - 12:44 .

[Chugster]

if people did stop using opinions as facts then i would not have an issue, its people doing this that make me angry...and that is not an unreasonable thing to ask for

oh and Nopho, i do dislike books and movies, but i dont go screaming that the director/writer should remake it the way i want it...thats just stupid

[upsettingshorts]

(Attempt at) Objectively:

* Gameplay/story segregation
* Repeated areas
* Very poorly optimized for nVIDIA graphics cards

Almost everything else I've seen has both its supporters and detractors, even the fact that DA2 is a shorter game.  The enemy waves seem to vary from "it'd be fine if they implemented them better" to "they are entirely stupid and I hate them."

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 08 mai 2011 - 01:03 .

[blothulfur]

It's a fact that I don't like it, hope this helps.

[jmbrosendo]

Chugster wrote...

basically im trying to show just how much of the 'hatred' towards DA2 and BW is pretty baseless...BW made a game...their game...and aside from taste issues there isnt much wrong with it...and i wish all these people would see it, shut up and go back to DAO or whatever and stop making me feel bad for enjoying a game

I would suggest you take a break and not visit the forums, in that case. Too much negativity around the webs nowadays.


The second point is, do not care for what anyone thinks, if you like it, that is all that matters. In your real social life, that is not so clear, but this is solo entertainment, who cares what others think, if it's fun for you, it's fun for you.


Thirdly, there have been numerous points, amidst ranting diatribes, that keep getting repeated over and over, regarding DA2. In plenty of threads. In essence what you're trying to achieve is actually contrary to your intents, you will just rehash old discussions, and rekindle all the negativity.

As Voltaire said, "Froth at the top, dregs at the bottom, but in the middle...perfect."
Basically means to ignore extreme positions from both sides, and focus on objective arguments, moderate, trying to be independent views.

[Leonia]

Facts.. are hard to come by.

I'd argue strongly though that the biggest decision and the overall "point" of the game wasn't handled very well. Without epilogue cards, we were supposed to see the results of our decisions more-or-less in real time (as each act progressed) but when they all led to THE decision (the one where Hawke literally points to the faction they support), we never really find out what that leads to. Yes, we know the state of Thedas (sort of) after the Champion has done his/her thing but unlike in Origins (or other RPGs) we don't really get a good feel for what the story was leading up to. I am not sure if you could call that "bad" but it does seem to be a major thing that disappoints people.

The actual story structure can be argued about (I personally liked the narrative-within-a-narrative) but the promise of "your decisions will really matter!" didn't really play out. No matter what choice you made, the ending was the same. So what real influence did the player have, if any? It was still fun to get to that point and see how everything affected Hawke and how Hawke affected Kirkwall, but I feel like the point that was being driven home didn't quite.. happen. If that makes sense.

[Waage25]

Chugster wrote...

basically im trying to show just how much of the 'hatred' towards DA2 and BW is pretty baseless...BW made a game...their game...and aside from taste issues there isnt much wrong with it...and i wish all these people would see it, shut up and go back to DAO or whatever and stop making me feel bad for enjoying a game

Yes we should all shut up.
BIOWARE did there best so leave bioware ALONE jadajadajada.

So our hate is baseless?

Bad Graphics
Ugly Art Direction
To Easy
HP bloat on harder lvl's (dose not make the game harder only longer and more boring.)
Every EXPLODES BECAUSE IT IS AWESOME. CLICK A BUTTON BOM BLOOD GYSER EXXZZZZZTREAMMMMMMMM AAAAWEZZZZOMEE!!!! BUTTTONXXXXX!!!!
Boring story
Badly written story
Badly written companions that dose not make any goddamn sens.
You can't influence the story
The story JUMPS in time, but nothing ever changes
Badly written encounters.
Horse Armour DLC

All these things are not baseless.

Modifié par Waage25, 08 mai 2011 - 01:13 .