382 réponses à ce sujet

[Aradace]

Night Prowler76 wrote...

Aradace wrote...

@Night - Actually, he kinda DID say that. In fact the quote was pretty much "Dont expect us to go back to that system any time soon..." In fact, in that same interview he said that the ONLY thing he didnt like about the interactions in DA2 was that most of it was done during Act 2 and he wishes they had "front loaded" more of it during Act 1.

If I sifted through all my of pages of threads Ive followed Im sure I could dig it up but he seriously said that.  Could narrow that search down further if I remember what thread on here I saw the link in lol

What he was talking about was all of the extra chat dialogue, like the stories that Leliana and Morrigan would tell you, and remember, David is not a designer, he is the lead writer, if the design team tells him to make more content, he has to do it, its not his decision...

David can "kinda" imply things all he wants, at the end of the day, its not his decision, he has bosses, just like everyone else, and if it comes down to DA3 telling a million more copies because the put in extra content, I would expect there to be extra content, especially since DA2 is going to be hard pressed to sell half the copies DAO did.

I think that was it actually.  And it was that aspect that they said they werent going back to (which I agree with).  Still, anyone expecting Origins system in the next game is going to be vastly disappointed.  Along with anyone expecting a voiceless protagonist, or getting to play their warden again.  If anything, we'll probably see "shades" of the old system in there but not the excess dialog to the degree that was Origins.


Edit: Yeaaaa, definately not sifting through 200+ pages of old threads I've replied to lol.  I dont have that kind of patience.  Especially since some of those old threads have somewhere to the tune of 100 pages.  Im all about proving my points, but not when I have to sift through that much data to find it 

Modifié par Aradace, 09 mai 2011 - 03:31 .

[snfonseka]

We don't need any other thing.... just look at Kirkwall. It's a f***ing ghost city. There is no feeling of a city there.

[Rockpopple]

I think the better question would be, what is objectively bad about the game that wasn't also objectively bad in Origins.

In which case, I'd say the repeating areas and the exploding bodies. That's it. Everything else is really up to people's personal tastes and opinions.

[Aradace]

Rockpopple wrote...

I think the better question would be, what is objectively bad about the game that wasn't also objectively bad in Origins.

In which case, I'd say the repeating areas and the exploding bodies. That's it. Everything else is really up to people's personal tastes and opinions.

I can narrow that down further really to just the re-used maps because the exploding bodies didnt bother me that much.  If anything I was indifferent to that aspect.  But yea, the re-used maps Im pretty sure is a universal complaint at this point.

[Chugster]

Aradace wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

I think the better question would be, what is objectively bad about the game that wasn't also objectively bad in Origins.

In which case, I'd say the repeating areas and the exploding bodies. That's it. Everything else is really up to people's personal tastes and opinions.

I can narrow that down further really to just the re-used maps because the exploding bodies didnt bother me that much.  If anything I was indifferent to that aspect.  But yea, the re-used maps Im pretty sure is a universal complaint at this point.

Everyone seems to agree in these...i can accept these as facts...but there is still plenty of emotional over-reaction even in this thread...kinda makes my point for me

although having said that, tasteless cancer joke aside, the flaming has been fairly low in this thread....proof we can do this properly

Modifié par Chugster, 09 mai 2011 - 03:55 .

[Sabriana]

Your own overreaction included, OP. It simply swings in a different direction than the negative one your thread brought out.

Which makes just about everyone's point, no matter what they think of the game.

Modifié par Sabriana, 09 mai 2011 - 03:56 .

[GMulryan]

Chugster wrote...

Ive been on these forums for quite a while now and like all of you ive seen all these posts screaming about how BW have screwed up with DA2....we all knew how the game played from a technical POV from the demo

But what i havent seen much of are actual facts as to why....there are plenty of opinions based on taste, but aside from the repetitive dungeons, i havent seen anything factual about this game being bad...nothing that ruins gameplay form a technical standpoint

so if you can, please give me facts that people agree on as to what makes this game technically bad....and it cant be something that someone has said that they have liked anywhere on these forums...so no combat (it works, whether you like it or not) or the dialogue wheel (has same number of choices as old system) and no story (again this is all a matter of taste)

It is a "FACT" that many people have expressed disappointment in the game, many have expressed what they disliked in post after post.

OP let it go. So what if there are people whom do not share your point of view. Move on.

[Night Prowler76]

Aradace wrote...

Night Prowler76 wrote...

Aradace wrote...

@Night - Actually, he kinda DID say that. In fact the quote was pretty much "Dont expect us to go back to that system any time soon..." In fact, in that same interview he said that the ONLY thing he didnt like about the interactions in DA2 was that most of it was done during Act 2 and he wishes they had "front loaded" more of it during Act 1.

If I sifted through all my of pages of threads Ive followed Im sure I could dig it up but he seriously said that.  Could narrow that search down further if I remember what thread on here I saw the link in lol

What he was talking about was all of the extra chat dialogue, like the stories that Leliana and Morrigan would tell you, and remember, David is not a designer, he is the lead writer, if the design team tells him to make more content, he has to do it, its not his decision...

David can "kinda" imply things all he wants, at the end of the day, its not his decision, he has bosses, just like everyone else, and if it comes down to DA3 telling a million more copies because the put in extra content, I would expect there to be extra content, especially since DA2 is going to be hard pressed to sell half the copies DAO did.

I think that was it actually.  And it was that aspect that they said they werent going back to (which I agree with).  Still, anyone expecting Origins system in the next game is going to be vastly disappointed.  Along with anyone expecting a voiceless protagonist, or getting to play their warden again.  If anything, we'll probably see "shades" of the old system in there but not the excess dialog to the degree that was Origins.


Edit: Yeaaaa, definately not sifting through 200+ pages of old threads I've replied to lol.  I dont have that kind of patience.  Especially since some of those old threads have somewhere to the tune of 100 pages.  Im all about proving my points, but not when I have to sift through that much data to find it 

I dont blame you lol, I think the jist of what will happen is that you will be able to talk to companions when questing, but there wont be much content to it, you know, like kissing morrigan on the road etc

No one will know till DA3 comes out I suppose, I want more content than DA2 has to offer, it doesnt have to be as much as Origins, but they need to make it longer, for myself, the game took 32 hours doing every single quest except the bugged one, (same as ME2), it just doesnt seem like enough for an RPG to me, all opinion of course.

[Dragoonlordz]

Chugster wrote...

Everyone seems to agree in these...i can accept these as facts...but there is still plenty of emotional over-reaction even in this thread...kinda makes my point for me

although having said that, tasteless cancer joke aside, the flaming has been fairly low in this thread....proof we can do this properly

You created this thread in an over-reaction to seeing people criticise the game then told them to shut up. So I am assuming your point is your one of those people, the way in which you worded the thread was dubious imo. Choosing the words fact and then followed up with technically. As I said earlier if want technical facts about the game there are sections under that title called the technical help sections listing very many technical facts about how bad the game is on that 'technical' side.

Simple fact is some people don't like the game and voice their concerns hoping they will be heard and taken into consideration for the next title. Some people do it well, some people do it badly but whether opinon or facts all are valid imho.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 09 mai 2011 - 04:31 .

[Realmzmaster]

Grovermancer wrote...

Chugster wrote...

But what i havent seen much of are actual facts as to why....

Maybe some people just choose to ignore them.


Here are a few FACTS, regarding combat (especially in comparison to DAO).

-- the characters move/fight absurdly too fast to be true to real life
-- the characters move in spastic, twitchy ways during strikes and swings
-- the weapons are apparently weightless
-- the combat moves and techniques (that I've seen) are not realistic or true to actual combat
-- the physical kinesthetics are wrong, and imply ignorance (or intentional butchering) of historical (or pre-established from DAO) combat technique
-- people in real weapons combat don't leap to and fro, or lunge a dozen feet in the blink of an eye
-- bodies don't explode, no matter how hard you strike them
-- waves of armored humans jumping in from 30 feet high


Logical (and intellectually honest) conclusions:

1.  Fact:  DAO's combat was meant to be more or less believable in a real-world-physics way, thus fitting with the dark, 'low' fantasy setting of the established DA universe
2.  Fact:  DA2 utterly violates that, violates that setting, atmosphere, the world and it's physical laws


Conclusion:  Anime power rangers hod-rod ninja god-of-war combat  = "bad," since that's not how it was originally portrayed, and does not fit the established world

DAO combat is not realistic. If you want realistic Mount & Blade comes closer than DAO or DA 2. If you want more realism we need weight restrictions, food and water requirements, warriors should be able to learn archery. The only way to level up is to seek training. If you want to learn new spells for your mage you either seek training or learn them from scrolls if you can dechiper the language.
The point is how much realism do you put into a fantasy game? DAO and DA 2 is even less realistic than BG1 and BG2 which are less realistic than Might and Magic or Bards Tale. You will probably find more realism in Temple of Elemental Evil which is not quite realistic because it has turn based combat. but is based on D & D 3.5 ruleset.
Realism is different for different people. My idea of realism is closer to the Alternate Reality series, were you could actually die of stravation and lack of water. Your stats and combat ability would decrease as long as you were without food and water.
Realism would be having weather effects. I would love to go back to most of this, but not everybody would want to.

Edited: for spelling

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 09 mai 2011 - 04:37 .

[Yrkoon]

Chugster wrote...


Everyone seems to agree in these...i can accept these as facts...but there is still plenty of emotional over-reaction even in this thread...kinda makes my point for me

Then you must not have had much  of a point to begin with.   Or you don't understand human psychology.

It's called emotion.    And strong emotion happens when  we're dealing with something that lends itself to significant time and  emotional investment by a player.  Some context is in order, here.

I'll speak  of mine.  I bought DA:O when it came out.  It virtually changed my life.  It was *so* mindblowingly good in *so* many major ways.    Consequently, I estimate that I   spent maybe.... 800 hours  of my life playing it over the course of   a year  or so.    So naturally,  when DA2 came out, I had it  shipped to my door  on day 1 and I was ready to  do  an  amazing   new ride for another  year or so.


Now imagine my  shock and disgust   as I played it and began noticing just how hideously  *alien* it felt.   How... *wrong* it  was in just about every conceivable way.  This  was no  Bioware RPG.  And it definitely  had no business bearing the same name as the Game I just got done emotionally and physically investing 800 friggin hours on.

Mentally, I'd say I was "confused", at first.  But that confusion then turned to anger  when I began putting 2 + 2 together:  I just spent 60 bucks on  a  steaming pile of pure E-Garbage.   This is something way WAY below Bioware's  standards.   This  is a game that my   10 year old nephew  would probably love.   

So here I am, on these forums, Venting.  If you don't understand  the "emotion" you're seeing from people on these forums, then I don't know what to say.  I can't help you, and really don't feel the need to any more than I already have. 


I will, however, point out that your attempt to hide behind  the "show me teh facts"  retort here  is  just plain  stupid.    DA2 isn't bad because of its "technical" flaws.  It's bad because of its fundamental flaws.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 09 mai 2011 - 04:57 .

[wildannie]

Night Prowler76 wrote...

Aradace wrote...

Night Prowler76 wrote...

Aradace wrote...

@Night - Actually, he kinda DID say that. In fact the quote was pretty much "Dont expect us to go back to that system any time soon..." In fact, in that same interview he said that the ONLY thing he didnt like about the interactions in DA2 was that most of it was done during Act 2 and he wishes they had "front loaded" more of it during Act 1.

If I sifted through all my of pages of threads Ive followed Im sure I could dig it up but he seriously said that.  Could narrow that search down further if I remember what thread on here I saw the link in lol

What he was talking about was all of the extra chat dialogue, like the stories that Leliana and Morrigan would tell you, and remember, David is not a designer, he is the lead writer, if the design team tells him to make more content, he has to do it, its not his decision...

David can "kinda" imply things all he wants, at the end of the day, its not his decision, he has bosses, just like everyone else, and if it comes down to DA3 telling a million more copies because the put in extra content, I would expect there to be extra content, especially since DA2 is going to be hard pressed to sell half the copies DAO did.

I think that was it actually.  And it was that aspect that they said they werent going back to (which I agree with).  Still, anyone expecting Origins system in the next game is going to be vastly disappointed.  Along with anyone expecting a voiceless protagonist, or getting to play their warden again.  If anything, we'll probably see "shades" of the old system in there but not the excess dialog to the degree that was Origins.


Edit: Yeaaaa, definately not sifting through 200+ pages of old threads I've replied to lol.  I dont have that kind of patience.  Especially since some of those old threads have somewhere to the tune of 100 pages.  Im all about proving my points, but not when I have to sift through that much data to find it 

I dont blame you lol, I think the jist of what will happen is that you will be able to talk to companions when questing, but there wont be much content to it, you know, like kissing morrigan on the road etc

No one will know till DA3 comes out I suppose, I want more content than DA2 has to offer, it doesnt have to be as much as Origins, but they need to make it longer, for myself, the game took 32 hours doing every single quest except the bugged one, (same as ME2), it just doesnt seem like enough for an RPG to me, all opinion of course.

http://social.biowar...7154827#7160859

I think the above goes to where DG was talking about conversations... 

I'm afraid it's just to the thread, I'm not sure how to link the specific post, sorry

Modifié par wildannie, 09 mai 2011 - 04:45 .

[Night Prowler76]

Thanks for diggin that up WildAnnie:>

[Dragoonlordz]

From looks of it he personally does not want a complete return to anytime branching dialogue but would be completley willing to have a middle ground. Unfortantly the price of becomming another 'cinematic' style game with 'VO' like the millions of others out there means the only difficult part is making the cutscenes matching the fact anywhere could mean camera problems.

But one thing is for sure the way it was done in DA2 for me was extremely inadequate. You got sometimes one and sometimes couple timed event cutscenes per act for each character to interact with them, these were forced and became chores of "Oh Fenris quest time lets go see what it is". This limitation on how often can interact and such is lazy and below par imho.

There was no reason why they could not have when enter say as example Fenris's mansion, Hanged Man or other places to talk with them a lot more scenes where you could learn more and have such dialogue. In the end what we got was a few timed quest dialogues and most of the rest of time single one liners akin to go away phrases or I'm busy, get lost. Mass Effect though is a cinematic game did it vastly better than DA2... Though I am and have stated that my opinion is they had 2 style of games ME being the action orientated cinematic franchise and DAO being the older D&D or BG classic style, now we have one style and thats action cinematic types for both series (narrowing the fanbase not broadening it).

The only thing new about DA2 at all really to me genre or game mechanics wise is switching from paragon/renegade or charm/intimidate to emotion type. Everything else and I do mean everything else has been done before on vast scale from wave system to a nobody rising to power or losing family in games even time skips and retrospective story telling approach.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 09 mai 2011 - 05:35 .

[Chugster]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Simple fact is some people don't like the game and voice their concerns hoping they will be heard and taken into consideration for the next title. Some people do it well, some people do it badly but whether opinon or facts all are valid imho.

So what is wrong with trying to weed out the ones that do it badly?

Everyone is bashing me for whining about whiners, but if you dont shine a light on bad behaviour then nothing happens....at least whiners are a genuine issue, whereas most of the hate threads are just about the hate

I have NEVER said that people cant have opinions, or that their opinions cant be different from mine....all ive tried to do is to stop people screaming hate with their opinions, making 'BW sucks' posts and all that other nonsense...infact, i dont think ive even offered my opinion of this game

[erynnar]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

From looks of it he personally does not want a complete return to anytime branching dialogue but would be completley willing to have a middle ground. Unfortantly the price of becomming another 'cinematic' style game with 'VO' like the millions of others out there means the only difficult part is making the cutscenes matching the fact anywhere could mean camera problems.

But one thing is for sure the way it was done in DA2 for me was extremely inadequate. You got sometimes one and sometimes couple timed event cutscenes per act for each character to interact with them, these were forced and became chores of "Oh Fenris quest time lets go see what it is". This limitation on how often can interact and such is lazy and below par imho.

There was no reason why they could not have when enter say as example Fenris's mansion, Hanged Man or other places to talk with them a lot more scenes where you could learn more and have such dialogue. In the end what we got was a few timed quest dialogues and most of the rest of time single one liners akin to go away phrases or I'm busy, get lost. Mass Effect though is a cinematic game did it vastly better than DA2... Though I am and have stated that my opinion is they had 2 style of games ME being the action orientated cinematic franchise and DAO being the older D&D or BG classic style, now we have one style and thats action cinematic types for both series (narrowing the fanbase not broadening it).

The only thing new about DA2 at all really to me genre or game mechanics wise is switching from paragon/renegade or charm/intimidate to emotion type. Everything else and I do mean everything else has been done before on vast scale from wave system to a nobody rising to power or losing family in games even time skips and retrospective story telling approach.

+1  erynnar friendship +20

Modifié par erynnar, 09 mai 2011 - 05:41 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Chugster wrote...

So what is wrong with trying to weed out the ones that do it badly?

Everyone is bashing me for whining about whiners, but if you dont shine a light on bad behaviour then nothing happens....at least whiners are a genuine issue, whereas most of the hate threads are just about the hate

I have NEVER said that people cant have opinions, or that their opinions cant be different from mine....all ive tried to do is to stop people screaming hate with their opinions, making 'BW sucks' posts and all that other nonsense...infact, i dont think ive even offered my opinion of this game

Might I suggest then instead of creating a thread asking people to justify the criticisms they have about the game in the form of facts, wouldn't it be better use of your time to actually post your opinion of the game. It would certainly be more appreciated then a thread complaining about complainers that way people can actually debate with you about what it is you enjoy or not about the game instead. In otherwords I would rather hear what you think about the game likes/dislikes than what you think about other people which in turn is doing the same thing you hate about them in the first place.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 09 mai 2011 - 05:50 .

[erynnar]

Chugster wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Simple fact is some people don't like the game and voice their concerns hoping they will be heard and taken into consideration for the next title. Some people do it well, some people do it badly but whether opinon or facts all are valid imho.

So what is wrong with trying to weed out the ones that do it badly?

Everyone is bashing me for whining about whiners, but if you dont shine a light on bad behaviour then nothing happens....at least whiners are a genuine issue, whereas most of the hate threads are just about the hate

I have NEVER said that people cant have opinions, or that their opinions cant be different from mine....all ive tried to do is to stop people screaming hate with their opinions, making 'BW sucks' posts and all that other nonsense...infact, i dont think ive even offered my opinion of this game

Why are you bothering to do this? Why be the hate police? It just seems to cause you stress. Why worry about whether there are hate threads? You aren't everyone's mother and their behavior is not yours to control. Why worry about it? Trying to stop people doing what you think of as screaming hate (which so far most people I know aren't screaming, and even on your post have given thoughtful, well written pros and cons) is as useful as pissing in the wind.

I would rather here you have to say on the game. Because you have no control over whether I post "hate." Only mods do, and they do a good job of it.

[Curlain]

Chugster wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Simple fact is some people don't like the game and voice their concerns hoping they will be heard and taken into consideration for the next title. Some people do it well, some people do it badly but whether opinon or facts all are valid imho.

So what is wrong with trying to weed out the ones that do it badly?

Everyone is bashing me for whining about whiners, but if you dont shine a light on bad behaviour then nothing happens....at least whiners are a genuine issue, whereas most of the hate threads are just about the hate

I have NEVER said that people cant have opinions, or that their opinions cant be different from mine....all ive tried to do is to stop people screaming hate with their opinions, making 'BW sucks' posts and all that other nonsense...infact, i dont think ive even offered my opinion of this game

Umm that is basically what you did here:

Chugster wrote...

basically im trying to show just how much of the 'hatred' towards DA2 and BW is pretty baseless...BW made a game...their game...and aside from taste issues there isnt much wrong with it...and i wish all these people would see it, shut up and go back to DAO or whatever and stop making me feel bad for enjoying a game

If you like it great, but it isn't very helpful to tell others they can't not like it or must shut up to stop you feeling bad (why does the fact that some of us not like DA2 matter to you anyhow, it shouldn't matter to your personal enjoyment of the game at all, some people don't like games, films and books I like, doesn't have any affect on me enjoying them)

Modifié par Curlain, 09 mai 2011 - 05:55 .

[lobi]

Chugster wrote...
stop making me feel bad for enjoying a game

emo much

[Gotholhorakh]

It seems to me that in the face of massive customer dissatisfaction WRT this product, where we are striving in large part to find a civilised middle ground, this sort of thread exists to throw petrol on the flames of consumer ire.


We have enough to do to stay civil in the face of a very direct and offensive middle finger from BioWare after this non-refundable purchase, in the hope that things will get back on the right track and we will all be friends again, without this... this nonsense.

Fans of the game? YEAH. SURE. I don't remember ever spending time on forums trying to shut up detractors with straw man arguments, instead of playing a game I thought was good.

Perhaps, somewhere, some billy goats have been able to cross their local bridge unmolested since this thread started, but that's about the sum total of its worth.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 09 mai 2011 - 06:29 .

[Zem_]

Grovermancer wrote...

Logical (and intellectually honest) conclusions:

1.  Fact:  DAO's combat was meant to be more or less believable in a real-world-physics way, thus fitting with the dark, 'low' fantasy setting of the established DA universe

True.

2.  Fact:  DA2 utterly violates that, violates that setting, atmosphere, the world and it's physical laws

True.  Though a less pejorative way of saying it is that it "changed" it.

Conclusion:  Anime power rangers hod-rod ninja god-of-war combat  = "bad," since that's not how it was originally portrayed, and does not fit the established world

Aaaaand....  false.  Not that it does not fit the previous game.  It doesn't.  But that it " = bad". 

Both you and the OP have the same flawed starting assumption:   That there CAN be facts about what is good or bad in a game.  These are value judgements.  They cannot be proven.  All you have succeeded in doing in your lengthy threads is prove that DA2's combat is less realistic than DAO's.  And I doubt anyone would really disagree with that.  But you can't just jump from there to a conclusion that it is objectively bad.  There is no such thing.  It is not your facts that are opinion, Grover.  It's your conclusion.

[Gotholhorakh]

Zem_ wrote...

Both you and the OP have the same flawed starting assumption:   That there CAN be facts about what is good or bad in a game.  These are value judgements.  They cannot be proven.

It seems likely to me that the OP does not make this assumption by accident.

It's classic straw man argument and there are at least 3 people on this forum who do it time and time again for their own ends, whatever those are.


Set up a wrong, flawed, load-of-baloney argument for your opponents, then argue with it.


People probably shouldn't bite.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 09 mai 2011 - 06:35 .

[Chugster]

hold on,

1) this thread is me asking people to not fan flames by posting hateful comments, i was not trying to fan any flames

2) Ok maybe telling people to shut up was too much...oops, looks like i felt an emotion...wow, the rest of my statement stands though

3) again, im not telling people not to like it, nor telling people not to post that they dont like it, just not to be an ass doing it

4) just like all of you, i have the right to post whatever i want, but, ive not been nasty, racist, sexist, trollish or anything, yet people are hating on me as well...i like game forums, but when i see so much crap i try to take a stand

Modifié par Chugster, 09 mai 2011 - 06:37 .

[Gotholhorakh]

Chugster wrote...
but when i see so much crap i try to take a stand

What is crap, and what are you taking a stand against?

Other people not being satisfied with something they have paid for and not being quick enough to "shut up" when the vendor laughs in their faces?

That's quite a remarkable thing to take a stand against. Vive la revolucione, eh??

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 09 mai 2011 - 06:47 .