382 réponses à ce sujet

[skyrend]

Give me FACTS about what is technically a 'good' game.

No opinions!  Facts and technical crap.

[Grovermancer]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Grovermancer wrote...

Chugster wrote...

But what i havent seen much of are actual facts as to why....

Maybe some people just choose to ignore them.


Here are a few FACTS, regarding combat (especially in comparison to DAO).

-- the characters move/fight absurdly too fast to be true to real life
-- the characters move in spastic, twitchy ways during strikes and swings
-- the weapons are apparently weightless
-- the combat moves and techniques (that I've seen) are not realistic or true to actual combat
-- the physical kinesthetics are wrong, and imply ignorance (or intentional butchering) of historical (or pre-established from DAO) combat technique
-- people in real weapons combat don't leap to and fro, or lunge a dozen feet in the blink of an eye
-- bodies don't explode, no matter how hard you strike them
-- waves of armored humans jumping in from 30 feet high


Logical (and intellectually honest) conclusions:

1.  Fact:  DAO's combat was meant to be more or less believable in a real-world-physics way, thus fitting with the dark, 'low' fantasy setting of the established DA universe
2.  Fact:  DA2 utterly violates that, violates that setting, atmosphere, the world and it's physical laws


Conclusion:  Anime power rangers hod-rod ninja god-of-war combat  = "bad," since that's not how it was originally portrayed, and does not fit the established world

DAO combat is not realistic. If you want realistic Mount & Blade comes closer than DAO or DA 2. If you want more realism we need weight restrictions, food and water requirements, warriors should be able to learn archery. The only way to level up is to seek training. If you want to learn new spells for your mage you either seek training or learn them from scrolls if you can dechiper the language.
The point is how much realism do you put into a fantasy game? DAO and DA 2 is even less realistic than BG1 and BG2 which are less realistic than Might and Magic or Bards Tale. You will probably find more realism in Temple of Elemental Evil which is not quite realistic because it has turn based combat. but is based on D & D 3.5 ruleset.
Realism is different for different people. My idea of realism is closer to the Alternate Reality series, were you could actually die of stravation and lack of water. Your stats and combat ability would decrease as long as you were without food and water.
Realism would be having weather effects. I would love to go back to most of this, but not everybody would want to.

Edited: for spelling

Most of your response has already been addressed (albeit buried in many pages) of the linked thread.

--  I'm not saying DAO's weapons combat was wholly realistic (though that does largely apply) as much as believable, especially for the DA world established.

--  citing other factors are irrelevent; some tried citing magic, others graphics, others still, RPG conceits (people actually cited health bars, someone else graphics issues of weapons sometime not aligning properly) as meaning therefore the whole of DAO's combat gameplay was somehow therefore not believable.  These of course, are desperate, nonsensical arguments.  One has nothing to do with the other.


--  if you look at the majority of melee combat animations in DAO, they are realistic.  That's an observable fact.
--  if you look at the majority of weapons combat animations in DA2, they are not realistic.  That's an observable fact.

Please revisit the list of DA2 combat traits mentioned above if anyone wants to try and pretend DA2 is as realistic or believable as DAO's weapons combat was. 

Or you could prove me wrong simply by uploading video of yourself, or even link me a video of anyone, one-handedly whipping around 2-H greatswords faster than the eye can see, leaping 15 feet through targets, as they explode in his or her wake.

Because you can look damn-near anywhere and find footage of people swinging greatswords or doing shield bashes, and they'll look pretty much like they did in DAO.  Close enough, for sure.

That's one of the main reasons I don't like DA2, and think it's a subpar, "sellout" game.  Why it's "bad."  They went for the flashy 'wiz-bang kewlness' factor.

[Lumikki]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

It is you who is advocating other people shutting up because you don't like what they say, no?

Actually no, it's not just what people say, but how they say it and what's the base of what they say.

Example, If I say game is bad because I say so, because I expected Bioware to do better. Then that opinion has no other base than my own expectations. I made the mistake here, not Bioware. If I say, I did not like how so many area in DA2 was same, recycled areas feeled bad. Then that's feedback based my gameplay as emotional opinion. There is different to have opinion based what game is and what player assume or expect the game to be. If player is disapointed, because player assumed or expected something to be different, that's players own issue, not Biowares.

Point is that too much hate and love cause people lose objectiveness. They opinion are too much "Game A" sucks and "Game B" is God. Meaning opinions go way too extreme because players own issues with something else than game it self. OP is trying to bring open that too many critism is going over the top. People losing they base for good constructive critism.  It just makes hole forum feel bad for everyone and in the end it lose the end goal, what is give good constructive feedback to Bioware so that they can make better games.

People should not assume every game is design for they personal taste of games or even should be. if people have other issues with Biowares direction of games, they should not blame some game for it, they should bring it open as seperate issue. Example if some company doesn't anymore do apple ice cream, I should not judge companies other ice cream's because my taste of ice creams.

Modifié par Lumikki, 09 mai 2011 - 09:40 .

[erynnar]

Addai67 wrote...

Chugster wrote...

im probably older than you sunshine...

Heh, good thing you clarified, from your avatar I was thinking maybe a 12 year old had taken over your account.

It's never a good sign when you start out seemingly asking a question (as in the thread title), then come to find out you didn't actually have a question, just wanted a platform to state your opinion.  Or hit people over the head with your opinion, as the case may be.

If you don't like the negativity concerning the game, the companions forum is pretty rah rah, and the campaigns forum is mixed.  The general forums have been where most of the criticism appears.  So why not just avoid those?  I agree there have been threads that are ridiculously vicious, but it's not fair to lump all critics of the game into one big "hater/ troll" pile, or to claim that people's opinions of the game are invalid because they're supposedly not based on "facts."  That's a cheap way of saying your own preferences have more basis than those of other people who disagree with you.

This^. And I am still not getting your "point' other than you don't like criticism of the game period. We aren't all trolls and haters, so really it isn't the really hyperbole threads you hate, you hate all criticism of the game. Why this is so I have no idea, because it it easily avoided, and it shouldn't matter if other people don't like it, you do, and that is all that is important in the end. I am thrilled you love it (really, no sarcasm), but other's not liking it really shouldn't have a bearing on you liking it, only you have control over that.

[erynnar]

skyrend wrote...

Give me FACTS about what is technically a 'good' game.

No opinions!  Facts and technical crap.

Yeah there's a technical thread for that, and it lists all of the problems.

[Ramus Quaritch]

My biggest complaint about DA2 was the horrible and horrendous inventory system. Bioware took something that wasn't broken and tried fixing it. Instead we get an inventory system where 2/3 of the loot is not useable by Hawke or any of the companions. If I'm a mage and I pick up a piece of armor that is not a robe, no one in the party can use it (because the companions are so picky and set in their ways about clothing that they wear the same clothing for years). We also get a five-star system to compare the items, which is more often than not wrong. Also, there is much less variety in the items. It got very boring picking up a million rings called "ring" with no other description. In fact, none of the items had any descriptions. In DA:O, every item had a description, even basic longswords. It built a lot of lore and gave the items character, something DA2 lacked. It goes to show how rushed their development cycle was if they couldn't provide short text descriptions for the items. DA:O may not have had the best inventory system (I personally liked it), but it was miles ahead of DA2's inventory system.

[Gotholhorakh]

Lumikki wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

It is you who is advocating other people shutting up because you don't like what they say, no?

Actually no, it's not just what people say, but how they say it and what's the base of what they say.

Example, If I say game is bad because I say so, because I expected Bioware to do better. Then that opinion has no other base than my own expectations. I made the mistake here, not Bioware. If I say, I did not like how so many area in DA2 was same, recycled areas feeled bad. Then that's feedback based my gameplay as emotional opinion.

No, no, no, you keep on making this same point, and it never stops being nonsense.

If you sell something to a couple of million people and lots of them don't like the fact that you have copied and pasted the maps so that each area is 12 different places, there is no defence that:

"this is each of those individual people's fault. It is their emotions!"

That's bollocks. The reason lots of people don't like it, is because it's bad.
The reason it is done is because it is easy, not because it is good.

..annd since it's cheap, if gamers in general found it remotely acceptable, no game shops would bother to make different locations for any games.

There is different to have opinion based what game is and what player assume or expect the game to be. If player is disapointed, because player assumed or expected something to be different, that's players own issue, not Biowares.

I've got news for you. If you disappoint your paying customers, that's your issue, not theirs. This is, you know, obvious.

They will eventually forget their DVD and carry on happily. What do they care until next time when they don't buy your game?

Don't assume every game is design for you taste of games or should be.

WTH?! People probably rightly assume that the game they pay their hard-earned cash for will be finished, and if it is a bad game for the individual, it would be a lot easier to digest a sequel to DA:O being lacklustre if there was any evidence of them caring whether it worked in the context of being a sequel to DA:O.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 09 mai 2011 - 09:44 .

[Lumikki]

@Gotholhorakh

Sorry, I just disagree with you.

You assume that if you are disapointed, it's Biowares problem. It's true it's they problem too, if you expectation about the game is valid ones. What is desided by Bioware, not you. How ever, if you self have make wrong assumption and build wrong expectations about they games, based what you personally want, then it's your personal issue. What you want isn't allways same as what Bioware want. There's millions players wanting different things, don't assume you cause is the right one for Bioware. Meaning, Bioware deside they direction based what they want.

People have this illusion that paying few bucks, it gives them Godly rights...

Modifié par Lumikki, 09 mai 2011 - 09:58 .

[Gotholhorakh]

Lumikki wrote...

@Gotholhorakh

Sorry, I just disagree with you.

You assume that if you are disapointed, it's Biowares problem. It's true it's they problem too, if you expectation about the game is valid ones. How ever, if you have your self make wrong assumption and build wrong expectations, based what you personally want. What you want isn't allways same as what Bioware want. There's millions players wanting different things, don't assume you cause is the right one for Bioware. Meaning, Bioware deside they direction based what they want.

People have this illusion that paying few bucks, it gives them Godly rights...

No, I expect to get a finished game, and not to be treated with contempt.

Which, I suspect is exactly what we would get if people could get refunds for this game.

On the whole, it will harm BioWare far more to fail at these things than me, because I will simply end up buying other games, and on the whole blaming people for poor reception of a product is utterly laughable.

If an author sells people a non-refundable sequel to their best-selling romance novel and the pages are blank except for pictures of BMX bikes, are the customers to blame for their "wrong expectations"? Are they behaving as if they are "entitled" if they lambast the thing?

In the real world, no. We live in the real world.

Forgive me, my expectations as a consumer are, as mentioned somewhere else, somewhat higher than a Soviet bread queue, so "take mouldy bread, STFU, you don't like it it's your fault" is just bad comedy to me, not an argument that carries any weight.

Lumikki wrote...
People have this illusion that paying few bucks, it gives them Godly rights...

I absolutely expect to get my money's worth for my hard-earned. Where I come from this is normal, we don't stand for anything less, and if this normal expectation is "godly rights" so be it.

People who expect less get what they deserve.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 09 mai 2011 - 10:03 .

[Lumikki]

@Gotholhorakh

Sorry, I still disagree with you. I don't see point of continue this anymore with you. As you self sayed, if you are not happy with some companies products, please look better products from some where else. That is only right what you have. If you are interested to give constructive critism about products, you are welcome for doing so too.

Modifié par Lumikki, 09 mai 2011 - 10:10 .

[Gotholhorakh]

Lumikki wrote...

@Gotholhorakh

Sorry, I still disagree with you. I don't see point of continue this anymore with you. As you self sayed, if you are not happy with some companies products, please look better products from some where else. That is only right what you have.

Lol, you're not in a position to tell me what rights I do and don't have, and as one of the many people who has been buying BioWare games not just through the last decade but during the one before, I will not be "moved along" right now by someone who thinks consumer feedback amounts to behaving like some sort of pliant child.

I agree in any case that this particular exchange between you and I has run its course, I've no wish to be hostile, but I'm never going to agree with the (imo preposterous) position you're holding now without a level of persuasive, reasoned argument that would probably be better applied to fixing Palestine, so let's agree to disagree like civilised people.

[Melca36]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

@Gotholhorakh

Sorry, I still disagree with you. I don't see point of continue this anymore with you. As you self sayed, if you are not happy with some companies products, please look better products from some where else. That is only right what you have.

Lol, you're not in a position to tell me what rights I do and don't have, and as one of the many people who has been buying BioWare games not just through the last decade but during the one before, I will not be "moved along" right now by someone who thinks consumer feedback amounts to behaving like some sort of pliant child.

I agree in any case that this particular exchange between you and I has run its course, I've no wish to be hostile, but I'm never going to agree with the (imo preposterous) position you're holding now without a level of persuasive, reasoned argument that would probably be better applied to fixing Palestine, so let's agree to disagree like civilised people.

I think the person is from another country and what you just experienced is a class of cultures when it comes to consumerism. 

[xXJayeDuBXx]

Gisle Aune wrote...

- Unbalanced AI. Enemies being really slow and stupid, Origins was way better in this regard, as enemy AI was similar to party members -- the same basically. But now they're just two moves and gimped basic moves.
- Waves, not inheretly bad, but used in 99% of battles and non-demons/spirits spawning out of thin air.
- Over the top. Serious RPG players do not want excess bloodsplatter and greatswords swung like toothpicks, even though Origins' animations might have been too slow on occation.
- Recycling, ya know, the caves.
- Unpolished -- release bugs, fixed after most initial customers lost interest in the game.
- No scent of a toolset comming.
- Little choise and ways this can turn out, rendering replayabillity low.
- Rushed, 1.5 year -- or 2 -- is too little for an RPG. 3 at least is advisable.

Not a bad game -- played it through three times and enjoyed it --, but it has severe flaws. Very good to be a studio's worst game.

Boy has this thread become something of a train wreck.
 
I would say I agree with the Waves, the Caves and to a degree the unpolished statement. But the rest of you points make little to no sense what so ever. I for one loved the gore, I find the AI to be just fine and there is quite a bit of replay value because of the choices a play can make. But no tool set? Seriously, that is going to be a fact as to why DA2 is bad? And since when has there been a development time requirement to make a game, let alone make it good? Also, I would invest in a spell checker at some point.

I don't disagree that DA2 has issues, but I find that some of what bothers people comes from the fact that it doesn't play like Origins.

What I love seeing most from people are all the comments about how Bioware should and should not do things, or that Portal 2 is the way to make a sequel and blah blah blah.

[Dragoonlordz]

You can never blame the customer for having high expectations, developers should be trying to reach those high standards and expectations. This is done with adding as much time as needed and finding solutions to problems within that extra time plus increasing content and such.

I do not know if more time would have made much difference to the quality of DA2 but I am 99% sure in my own mind that it would. Take ME3 for example they increased the time to get things just right and to make the best game they possibly can (we will see if they succede or not when released), this was not the case with DA2 by a long way.

DA2 data size stored on the discs are less than half that of DAO this is not because of streamlining the code to truly amazing lengths or inventing a new compression system that revolutionizes data storage capacity... No they just have less content on the discs, be it same map used many times or less player/NPC and enemy models even less padding of the quests and much more. The only reason why DA2's game play time seems as long is because people are having to turn it up to the highest difficulty and deal with wave after wave of enemies in each fight or even running through the same maps a dozen or so time fighting different waves of gangs all of which increases time by extreme amounts.

If DA2 is the best Bioware can do or more specifically the team handling Dragon Age franchise then that is far more disturbing than any single aspect within the game itself. If it is not the best they can do then they need to ask themselves is throwing out a half arsed or lacking product something they should be proud of, seems to me if a developer loves making games and people playing their games then they should be doing everything they can to make it the best game they can and extend the time until they are proud of what they release. This is not to be confused with proud of rushing through it quick enough to hit a deadline.

ME shows they have the ability to push back release until they are truly happy with the title and the fans appreiciate that as shown in the ME forums, this is not the case with DA2 because that is not what they did. They pushed it out as soon as they could regardless of whether it was the absolute best game they could make with as much content as they and the fans could have wished for, instead became the most adequate they could do in such short time frame.

Unfortuantly they set the bar much higher in previous titles so yes we expect better from them and we know they have the ability and talent to do much better, it's just shame they didn't spend the extra time to do so.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 09 mai 2011 - 11:00 .

[erynnar]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

You can never blame the customer for having high expectations, developers should be trying to reach those high standards and expectations. This is done with adding as much time as needed and finding solutions to problems within that extra time plus increasing content and such.

I do not know if more time would have made much difference to the quality of DA2 but I am 99% sure in my own mind that it would. Take ME3 for example they increased the time to get things just right and to make the best game they possibly can (we will see if they succede or not when released), this was not the case with DA2 by a long way.

DA2 data size stored on the discs are less than half that of DAO this is not because of streamlining the code to truly amazing lengths or inventing a new compression system that revolutionizes data storage capacity... No they just have less content on the discs, be it same map used many times or less player/NPC and enemy models even less padding of the quests and much more. The only reason why DA2's game play time seems as long is because people are having to turn it up to the highest difficulty and deal with wave after wave of enemies in each fight or even running through the same maps a dozen or so time fighting different waves of gangs all of which increases time by extreme amounts.

If DA2 is the best Bioware can do or more specifically the team handling Dragon Age franchise then that is far more disturbing than any single aspect within the game itself. If it is not the best they can do then they need to ask themselves is throwing out a half arsed or lacking product something they should be proud of, seems to me if a developer loves making games and people playing their games then they should be doing everything they can to make it the best game they can and extend the time until they are proud of what they release. This is not to be confused with proud of rushing through it quick enough to hit a deadline.

ME shows they have the ability to push back release until they are truly happy with the title and the fans appreiciate that as shown in the ME forums, this is not the case with DA2 because that is not what they did. They pushed it out as soon as they could regardless of whether it was the best game they could make, instead became the most adequate they could do in such short time frame.

I agree. And the game has a LOT of padding. It is truly frightening if this is the best the DA team could come up with. An I just can't believe that's true, I see their talent in DAO and I see it peeking out of DA2. I've said before I felt biopolar about DA2, because I could see the real talent I know these devs and writers for, but I kept getting sideswiped by the ditritus of padding, waves, and meh stuff.

Oh, I hope ME3 comes rushing out of the gate and gives a stellar performance...*crosses finger, toes, and eyes*

[Haexpane]

Chugster wrote...

  i havent seen anything factual about this game being bad..

This is called TROLL BAIT

[erynnar]

Haexpane wrote...

Chugster wrote...

  i havent seen anything factual about this game being bad..

This is called TROLL BAIT

TROLL in the dungeon? Thought you'd want to know....*Faints*

[Dragoonlordz]

erynnar wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

Chugster wrote...

  i havent seen anything factual about this game being bad..

This is called TROLL BAIT

TROLL in the dungeon? Thought you'd want to know....*Faints*

Dammit! Now you made me want to go play HeroQuest...

[erynnar]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

Chugster wrote...

  i havent seen anything factual about this game being bad..

This is called TROLL BAIT

TROLL in the dungeon? Thought you'd want to know....*Faints*

Dammit! Now you made me want to go play HeroQuest...

ROFL!!

[Fishy]

- The recycled area aren't bad . There's plenty of game that send you questing in a area you visited earlier.Dragon age was not enough of a persistant world  for it to work.

-The Wave of enemies . This is bad .. Not really worse than NPC just 'waiting' for you to clean the area to move forward.But them spawning from the cloud that just to much.The whole 'corridor vacuum' thing anyway get on my nerve.We're in 2011 . I know bioware aren't making open world videogame with 'date' and 'time' but they can do something to improve the immersion of exploration.

It's also opened stuff like being a thieves.I really enjoyed the short but fun thief quest in Origins.

-The paraphrase wheel  was not so bad . The problem with a silent protagonist in a game with a lot of cutscene involving him is that we see his stupid expression and he never talk . He just look at them stupidly.It's was working in 2000 thanks to sprites avatar .

Bioware are a bit tied here . They're making videogame with deeper naration than New Vegas etc.So you have more cutscene 'involving' your character and more facepalming moment when you witness his polygons facial expression .It's even creepy sometime in Origins .So what we could suggest?First person view?Doubtful .Isometric view?Maybe.If it's were me i would do a first Person game with deep naration .It's was done for a FPS named Half-life/Portal . So i'm sure it's could be done for a RPG.Just an idea.

Not mixing them ..
and yes i`m not english

Modifié par Suprez30, 09 mai 2011 - 11:21 .

[fightright2]

*thinks the topic is a trick question*

[AngryFrozenWater]

Suprez30 wrote...

- The recycled area aren't bad . There's plenty of game that send you questing in a area you visited earlier.Dragon age was not enough of a persistant world  for it to work.

I think they were bad and felt like an immersion breaker to me. They gave a constant feeling of déjà vu. Did or didn't I do this quest before? In the end I had no clue what quest I was doing.

[erynnar]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Suprez30 wrote...

- The recycled area aren't bad . There's plenty of game that send you questing in a area you visited earlier.Dragon age was not enough of a persistant world  for it to work.

I think they were bad and felt like an immersion breaker to me. They gave a constant feeling of déjà vu. Did or didn't I do this quest before? In the end I had no clue what quest I was doing.

Me too! I actually got confused between one quest and another.

[PSUHammer]

Actually there are quite a few factual reasons the game failed to live up to expectations. I say this as someone who enjoyed the game, but not as much as previous Bioware efforts. I played through it twice and will again after the next patch. What IS wrong with it is:

* Recycled maps...again, overstated. It isn't that they use the same maps, it's just that they do nothing to hide the fact that they are.
* Combat is a little over the top and consolish. I liked many of the changes, but the body explosions and ninjas dropping from the sky get old.
* Worst thing for me was how lifeless Kirkwall felt. They decided to make the entire game there and never added any life to it. Guards stare at Aveline as she is fighting gangs and bandits in the streets. People mill around while battles are going on around them and are unharmed by spells and combat. Templars beeotch about mages and blood magic while you taunt them with your staff and mage robes.

That last bullet just kills the game for me in terms of immersion and is factual. Look at the market in Hightown for proof. How many people are in the market, other than the four vendors and the Rune dwarf? Five? Are you kidding me?

And then, how many people do you kill in the streets? You easily kill the entire visible population of Kirkwall 5 times over with all the gangs and bandits running around. And, the gaurds stroll casually by as you do so.

It wouldn't have been so bad if Kirkwall was like Denerim, only a part of the map. But to have your central city so lifeless is gamebreaking in terms of immersion.

Modifié par Hammer6767, 10 mai 2011 - 01:09 .