382 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabriana]

Chugster wrote...

basically im trying to show just how much of the 'hatred' towards DA2 and BW is pretty baseless...BW made a game...their game...and aside from taste issues there isnt much wrong with it...and i wish all these people would see it, shut up and go back to DAO or whatever and stop making me feel bad for enjoying a game

But you do the same thing as seen in your post. You call it baseless, that's an opinion. You say there's nothing wrong with it aside from taste, that's also an opinion. Because taste is subjectiv. What was pointed out to you is found in there, in the game itself. If you can get over the parts that others think is lore-wrecking, inconsistent, etc., then good for you. But it still is nothing more than your opinion. You even include the wish that people would conform to your opinion, or shut up if they don't want to do that.

Aside from that, like I stated before, all you succeeded in is having people list up all that they think is bad about the game, thereby reinforcing the negative. It wasn't well done. It was doomed to fail from the start.

There are a lot of people here who calmly state their negative opinion without attacking those who don't share it. The screamers simply stand out more. If that bothers you this much, I agree with those who suggest to simply ignore the negative postings.

[Khayness]

Read the patch notes and check out the bugs which can be only fixed by reloading a previous stage of the game or starting a new playthrough.

Every game has bugs, but not "let's wait 'till this gets patched out before I continue" ones.

[Shadesofsiknas]

The thing is Bioware made their game, and they made it in a way they thought would appeal to the most people and bring in the COD crowd thus increasing the fanbase of DAO.

They failed miserably. As has been argued, alot of what people complain about IS subjective. The thing is almost everyone has their cmplaints. And while not all the same they add up.

While DAO was not pefect, it got a fair bit right and in the end it was more than the sum of its parts. DA2 got some things right but more wrong and in the end was more than the sum of its failures.

What worries me is that Mike Laidlaw and his cronies thought this was the way to go with the DA franchise and its what the fans would love. How wrong was he? Is he able to see what went wrong? If not how wrong will be the lessons learned from this game? What Ham will be landed next time?

Edit: spelling!

Modifié par Shadesofsiknas, 08 mai 2011 - 01:20 .

[lobi]

I am not good with technical stuff, ask Tali.

[Lumikki]

In my opinion..

1. Re-used maps
2. Story seem to be disconnected between acts and story has very weak goal for player.
3. In combat too many enemies are droping top of players party from (sky) no-where.
4. Players choises has very little affect to anything at all.

There are few minor stuff, but I think they are more taste than actual issues.

Modifié par Lumikki, 08 mai 2011 - 01:23 .

[mesmerizedish]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

* Gameplay/story segregation

What do you mean? The "be a mage, no consequence" stuff, for example?

[Dubya75]

Gaming experience can't always be quantified with technical facts.
DA2 has a lot going for it from improved art and graphics, to the voiced protagonist which I think works very well.
Technically however, there are a few things that don't work too well:

- Recycled areas
- clipping graphics
- flawed character creator (have you tried the beards? completely unusable)
- framed narrative (doesn't add anything to the experience)
- ambiguous item and loot system
- gameplay bugs and freezing

[fchopin]

Sabriana wrote...

Chugster wrote...

basically im trying to show just how much of the 'hatred' towards DA2 and BW is pretty baseless...BW made a game...their game...and aside from taste issues there isnt much wrong with it...and i wish all these people would see it, shut up and go back to DAO or whatever and stop making me feel bad for enjoying a game

There is no way to "shut" these people up. You say there isn't much wrong with it, other say there is. Your opinion is worth as much as other people's opinion. Not more not less.

All that is listed is present in the game and can be seen by all. Those items bother a lot of people, as you can see in all the "constructive criticism" threads. They should not be ignored, because they constitute feedback. I've paid a lot of money for the game, and that gives me right to criticise as well as praise.

If you like the game, I'm happy for you. I mean that sincerely. You should not be made feel bad for liking it. But if you wanted to teach all of us who did find flaws in greater or lesser extends a "lesson", then that was doomed to fail right from the start.

You might enjoy static cities, teleporting mages. magePCs that are handwaved in a story whose major plot-line is templar vs mage, etc. but many others don't. What you managed to do is simply having people point out happenstances in the game that they see as failures. To me, personally, they are failures as well. To you they are not. Neither one of us is wrong or right.

Opinions are tossed around as facts on both sides. Those opinions are based on what is present in the game most of the time. I didn't hate it. I found it average, and overpriced for its averageness. I have a right to that opinion. You love the game and you too have a right to do just that, and voice your opinion about it.

Stop trying to tell other people what to do and what to like. You don't have the right to do that. On the other hand, nobody has the right to tell you that you should feel bad for loving the game. It works both ways.

+1


I will just agree with Sabriana, said it better than i can.

[nopho]

Chugster wrote...

if people did stop using opinions as facts then i would not have an issue, its people doing this that make me angry...and that is not an unreasonable thing to ask for

see, you can easily turn all that around. people here use their opinion as facts that DA2 is a good game. what you do here is basically attacking one side of the people here with arguments wich can be pointed at the other as well. or rather: please bring me FACTS that DA2 is a good game.
and lastly it is convinient. i already take the trouble and add to most things i write here "in my opinion" heck actually i would have to say "according to vgchartz da2 sells at 1/10th of da:o in its 8th week, thats bad -in my opinion-"

oh and Nopho, i do dislike books and movies, but i dont go screaming
that the director/writer should remake it the way i want it...thats just
stupid

in what way is that stupid? i let you in a little secret. i am waiting for george lucas to die (from natural cause) so someone can pick up star wars and make the new triology anew. if you do not like anything, complain about it. because if you do not you shouldn't be surprised if you do not like the next thing too.

or do you just mean people who want DA2 to be remade? this would instandly put 99% of the people who complain here off your list. and games do have the one big advantage that you can change them after they were made in a way you never could with another medium, so it is an unlikely but possible option.

Modifié par nopho, 08 mai 2011 - 01:47 .

[Phaedros]

Shadesofsiknas wrote...

What worries me is that Mike Laidlaw and his cronies thought this was the way to go with the DA franchise and its what the fans would love. How wrong was he? Is he able to see what went wrong? If not how wrong will be the lessons learned from this game? What Ham will be landed next time?

This^  worries me too

[Lumikki]

Phaedros wrote...

Shadesofsiknas wrote...

What worries me is that Mike Laidlaw and his cronies thought this was the way to go with the DA franchise and its what the fans would love. How wrong was he? Is he able to see what went wrong? If not how wrong will be the lessons learned from this game? What Ham will be landed next time?

This^  worries me too

And what was wrong here again what Mike Laidlaw and his cronies thought?
It was wrong because you people think so?

[Realmzmaster]

Technically from a programming point of view (aside from bugs which happen in all software) the game is done correctly. The AI may be weak but implemented correctly according to design. So from a technically stand point the game is solid. Design on the other hand is a different story.
Programmers can technically only implement the design.
If the design is flawed (aside from programming bugs which can be fixed) then the software is flawed. No amount of excellent programming is going to correct design flaws.
Art design is also subjective, the actual implementation of the art can be flawless but no one has to like the look.
The use of recycled maps is a design decision. The implementation of it can be correct given the design.
The dialogue wheel is technically implemented correctly.
Technically the game can be rock solid, but does not mean that it is a great game that is base on all the elements combined (art, story etc).

[upsettingshorts]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

What do you mean? The "be a mage, no consequence" stuff, for example?

That's one.

The characters - from random NPCs to your own companions - talk about things we should be able to see with our own eyes but rarely do.

Also the but-thou-must moments fall under this criticism when they are poorly handled. 

[Realmzmaster]

Lumikki wrote...

Phaedros wrote...

Shadesofsiknas wrote...

What worries me is that Mike Laidlaw and his cronies thought this was the way to go with the DA franchise and its what the fans would love. How wrong was he? Is he able to see what went wrong? If not how wrong will be the lessons learned from this game? What Ham will be landed next time?

This^  worries me too

And what was wrong here again what Mike Laidlaw and his cronies thought?
It was wrong because you people think so?

It is wrong because a lot of people do not like the direction Mike Laidlaw took based on the design of DA:O.
It it wrong? In Mike Laidlaw's mind, No. It was his vision.
Many do not agree with that vision. Mike made the game he wanted to make. It is simply not the game a lot of people want.

[jndiii]

A note on fact vs opinion:  the thread title is asking about what is "bad" with the game, in a technical sense.  No matter how technically one is judging it, the "bad"-ness is still necessarily an opinion.  Just like judging dance or music, there are artistic technicalities along with more objective technicalities to be judged.

In my opinion

• Re-using city areas was OK, re-using cave maps for the same cave is OK, but re-using cave maps for random caves breaks immersion.  I think it actually hurt that the caves were so detailed, so players would instantly notice the repetition when it occured.
• Using waves in big battles is good, using waves in normal fights is just annoying.  Never mind that you just slaughtered the bandits' first wave without a scratch, their maniacally brave compatriots will charge in to be slaughtered as well.
• The story's edginess grated on many:  very bad things happen, in spite of what you as a player choose.  But worse, the real technical fault, is that you cannot choose which bad things happen.  That is to say, whichever side you choose, the same people (more or less) needlessly die.  There is no lesser of two (or three or four ...) evils not because all choices result in qualitatively different but equally bad things, but because all choices result in essentially the same bad things.
• Certain boss fights are just annoying instead of epic. Epic is NOT running in circles like some old-time Danny Kaye comedy sword fight, instead it should be a head-on fight employing clever tactics a la Errol Flynn.
• They simplified the UI.  Some simplifications were good, e.g., you can select everyone to attack, but that doesn't limit the AI to just auto-attack.  I also liked the simplification of crafting, where you find instances of resources, and that allowed certain recipes to work, using money instead of piles of 99 elfroot to craft things.  Several simplifications were bad, and didn't really simplify, but rather eliminated loved features.  Companion armor didn't need simplification.  Secondary weapons did not need simplification (elimination).  Skills didn't need to be eliminated, though I find that less annoying, since they can be put inside of talent trees instead ... except, well, your stuck with 1 talent per level, still.

Now, I also think a lot of things are good.  In addition to some of those I mention above, I would also include:

• I like, mostly, how combat is handled, other than the overused waves.  You can tell that they focused on combat gameplay a lot, because there is very little to annoy players other than style and breaking immersion with plate-armored acrobats and exploding corpses.
• I like that they limit healing such that you have to think your way around fights.
• I like cross-class combos!
• I like the talent trees, mostly.  I like having a lesser spell that gets upgraded to a better spell.  My main gripe with talent trees is having half as many available active spells as I have levels, due to all the upgrades and passives.  It's balanced, I guess, but as a mage I like having more tools.  Perhaps make certain spells use the same cooldown, so that instead of casting two or three huge DoT AoEs, you can only have one (whichever is most suited) raining death from the sky ... but in exchange for that limit, give mages more talents to play with.

That's about it, I think.  For what it's worth, I think most of the fan base gripes are about all of the "simplifications" that remove real roleplay (and replay) value, and primarily not letting player choices substantially affect real plot outcomes.  Too many aspects of the storyline are unchangeable.

[wildannie]

To OP

The worth of the game cannot be reduced to it's technical faults or lack thereof. Even if something is 'technically' perfect, if it has no soul and people don't enjoy it then it's not good.

The most technically proficient musician is still limited to how good the music being played is, and will be judged by listeners with varying subjective tastes.

looking to a list of 'technical' faults in DA2 as if these can be the only valid complaints regarding the game is pointless and wrong.

[Killer3000ad]

Chugster wrote...

basically im trying to show just how much of the 'hatred' towards DA2 and BW is pretty baseless...BW made a game...their game...and aside from taste issues there isnt much wrong with it...and i wish all these people would see it, shut up and go back to DAO or whatever and stop making me feel bad for enjoying a game

So basically you are saying our opinions are worth less than yours? What nonsense, who do you think you are? Royalty?

[upsettingshorts]

I think it was just a poor way of expressing frustration over opinions being labeled as facts.

But as others have pointed out, plenty of people do this whether they are pro or con.

And to be honest, people were doing it before DA2 was even released.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 08 mai 2011 - 02:10 .

[Kangasniemi]

Funny how all this hate for the game comes from 30ish people who wrote in every single hate thread in the forums. And NONE of the complaints they make are objective.

This thread has gone on for 2 pages now and only 1 clearly technical fault in the game: bugs. And the worst of those have already been fixed.

Borderline cases are the over use of wave system and recycled maps, neither of those are new to games, not even for Bioware games by the way.

Every other complaints are subjective and not technical by a long shot. DA2 does have it's faults but they are no where near as bad as the whiners make you believe.

The plot is new and refreshing change from the standard "oh you nameless orphan, please save our world because we could do it ourselves but don't feel like it at the moment. YOU ARE OUR ONLY HOPE! Oh and health potions and equipment will cost you the normal rate" (DA:O's "plot" is as riveting as reading a phone book).

Art style of DA2 isn't the greatest but it's not a game breaker. Combat system is great the animations not so good as opposed to DA:O's suffle system (the is no combat system in DA:O) with some what good animations.

And yes these, excluding the three technical faults I mentioned earlier, are subjective views.

Edit: typo

Edit: To all that complain that you can't make an RPG is less than 3 years, nice to see you have nerver heard about a small game called Fallout 2...

Modifié par Kangasniemi, 08 mai 2011 - 02:20 .

[Leonia]

FWIW, I too am tired of feeling "bad" for liking this game. But at the end of the day every time you hear "DA2 was terrible!" it will always be an opinion and nothing more and therefore can be ignored. The hatred for the game will probably never let up, so best you can do is just enjoy what you enjoy and if others don't like it.. so what?

[Cutlass Jack]

The only real 'fact' is that DA2 did not get the same lengthy development time as DAO and therefore had to make some tough decisions on how to use their time wisely. Any other complaint is more a difference in opinion on how wise those choices were.

Even recycled environments. They clearly made a choice between more maps and more things to do on them. So they made a call (that I would have argued for myself if I were there) that more content is better than much less content on single use maps.

But the other choice (that I would not have made) is they created those maps in a way that didn't use tilesets and have the disappearing ceiling feature. This had the side effect of making maps more time consuming to create and killing the tactical camera option. Had they not gone that route, they'd have reduced two of the complaints on the game.

Just an opinion though. Time spent fixing any 'issue' mentioned on this thread is time that would have had to be taken from somewhere else. Which would have led to different complaints.

Because we love complaining.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 08 mai 2011 - 02:12 .

[Kreid]

What I feel are the most objective "facts" are these:
-Recycled maps
-Lack of sense of wonder and discovery (recycled maps, limited setting, lack of significant change of both people and environment during the spanning years of the story)
-Lifeless Kirkwall
-Weird Item management (by this I'm referring to the myriad of generic stuff like "ring" or "amulet" not to mention the junk stuff)
-Enemy waves in every encounter

[andraip]

Waage25 wrote...

So our hate is baseless?

Yes it is. Because you are hating BioWare just because they didn't made the product you'd wished. If you don't like a game like DA2 then don't buy it.

To Easy

Just out of interrest, what difficulty are you playing?

HP bloat on harder lvl's (dose not make the game harder only longer and more boring.)

That's not true. DA:O, ME and ME2 also increase the HP of the enemies with increasing difficulties. Also on NM there are a lot of extra things that make the game harder (e.g. assasins stealing potions, friendly fire, etc), I also think that the higher the difficulty in DA2 the more interresting the game becomes (casual = super boring, nightmare = interresting), but that's my opinion.

To OP:

   -massive reused maps
   -bad animations (some spawn, death and ability animations)
   -the game does not react if bloodmagic (bloodmage Hawke or Merril) is used in front of a templar.

Modifié par andraip, 08 mai 2011 - 02:22 .

[TEWR]

[quote]Waage25 wrote...


Yes we should all shut up.
BIOWARE did there best so leave bioware ALONE jadajadajada.

So our hate is baseless?

Bad Graphics
[/quote]

For some of the civilians of Kirkwall yes. For everyone else that was actually given a proper appearance, no.

[quote]
Ugly Art Direction
[/quote]
Baseless. Entirely opinion. I'd like for you to expound on what part of the art direction you didn't like so I'm not assuming what you didn't like.

[quote]
To Easy
HP bloat on harder lvl's (dose not make the game harder only longer and more boring.)
[/quote]

Last I checked Origins had that exact same thing, AND you did less damage to enemies. If it wasn't there for you I must've played an entirely different game.

[quote]
Every EXPLODES BECAUSE IT IS AWESOME. CLICK A BUTTON BOM BLOOD GYSER EXXZZZZZTREAMMMMMMMM AAAAWEZZZZOMEE!!!! BUTTTONXXXXX!!!!
[/quote]

Universal fact that no one likes the over the top death blows. So, you're right.

[quote]
Boring story
[/quote]
Opinion.

[quote]
Badly written story.
[/quote]
Opinion on the quality of the story.

[quote]
Badly written companions that dose not make any goddamn sens.
[/quote]

Like who exactly? Who was badly written? Anders? He's the only one that comes to mind, and that's only due to us lacking an official timeline of events that happened in Origins, Origins DLC, and DA2.


[quote]
You can't influence the story[/quote]

Sadly, yes.
[quote]
The story JUMPS in time, but nothing ever changes
[/quote]
Sadly, again yes.

[quote]
Badly written encounters. [/quote]
Again, please explain which encounters you didn't like, unless you mean the whole wave popping out of nowhere thing. In which case I agree.

[quote]
Horse Armour DLC
[/quote]

Just because you hate it, does not make it a universal fact. It makes it your opinion. Me? I'm divided on whether I like it or hate it.


[quote]
All these things are not baseless.[/quote]

Most of your "not baseless facts" were in fact baseless. try to do better next time.

[Sabriana]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

The only real 'fact' is that DA2 did not get the same lengthy development time as DAO and therefore had to make some tough decisions on how to use their time wisely. Any other complaint is more a difference in opinion on how wise those choices were.

Even recycled environments. They clearly made a choice between more maps and more things to do on them. So they made a call (that I would have argued for myself if I were there) that more content is better than much less content on single use maps.

But the other choice (that I would not have made) is they created those maps in a way that didn't use tilesets and have the disappearing ceiling feature. This had the side effect of making maps more time consuming to create and killing the tactical camera option. Had they not gone that route, they'd have reduced two of the complaints on the game.

Just an opinion though. Time spent fixing any 'issue' mentioned on this thread is time that would have had to be taken from somewhere else. Which would have led to different complaints.

Because we love complaining.

Cheers !

Yes, that's true. Plus the stone doors that will or won't open, and the map still showing areas that are inaccessible.

There are things that I really like about DA 2. The companion quests far outshine the DA:O yawnfests. I just wish there was more companion interaction - lots more. So they like Dog more than Hawke? Pffft. See if she cares *sniffle*.

For me, the game played at a far more stable rate. DA:O lagged more, and it crashed now and then. DA 2 hasn't done that for me yet.

Varric. I love that dude. Even if he is lying a lot. Or maybe he isn't.

The banter now includes Hawke now and then. That was a nice touch. I liked it a lot. (although I want more rum of it).

Mages can melee, yay. I threw poor Hawke into melee just because I could, that's how much I liked the new feature.

To me, DA 2 wasn't bad, merely an overpriced average game. It wasn't what I expected from bioware, but I never said I hated it outright.

For me, the bad outweight the good. Other people found that the good outweight the bad. And neither one is wrong.