382 réponses à ce sujet

[Realmzmaster]

Gamers are upset that they have no control over their companions armor. Actually if you want to be truly realistic you should have no control over what your companions wear or what they fight with. Since you are not traveling with children as your companions you should not be able to tell them what to wear. That would be realistic.
What gamers are upset about is that little cookie from DAO was taken away. But it is not the first time Bioware has done that. If you remember NWN you could not tell your henchmen what to wear or wield. Henchmen improved with level up.

[Gotholhorakh]

Realmzmaster wrote...
Gamers are upset that they have no control over their companions armor.
[*snip*]
What gamers are upset about is that little cookie from DAO was taken away.

and you think that's what people are upset about, do you?

Honestly?

Do you think that's a very insightful grasp of their complaints?

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 08 mai 2011 - 09:44 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Gamers are upset that they have no control over their companions armor. Actually if you want to be truly realistic you should have no control over what your companions wear or what they fight with. Since you are not traveling with children as your companions you should not be able to tell them what to wear. That would be realistic.
What gamers are upset about is that little cookie from DAO was taken away. But it is not the first time Bioware has done that. If you remember NWN you could not tell your henchmen what to wear or wield. Henchmen improved with level up.

You could make it even more realistic... You cannot tell them what to do either in combat. Being they are not your subordinates hence why your not allowed to tell them what to wear, they have their own personalities and therefore tbh own ways of doing things too so in DA3 will we see this reduction in customisation and increase in personality shown in the end as you can only control what you wear and what commands you issue for only your yourself. The companions have their own personalities so why would they if not take order on things like gear then why on orders a friend barks at them? The excuse for one thing and not the other does not cut it imho yet I am sure someone will come in here jumping up and down proclaiming one is acceptable while the other is not.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 08 mai 2011 - 09:44 .

[Zjarcal]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

There are factually things wrong with the game like example I gave.

How about the console freezes on the PS3 version, pretty sure it counts as factual that it happens with DA2 on PS3 and happened to enough people that it is acknowledged to be an issue in the tech section. You want facts about failing of the game go head over to the tech sections of each format.

That is indeed a fact about something wrong with the game. No one could deny that or justify it.

It is also a fact that issues such as waves and reused areas affect the enjoyment of the game for people.

Those are a couple facts colored by an opinion. It is indeed a fact that the game reuses areas, but I've seen more than a fair share of people who weren't bothered by it (for the record, I'm not one of them, I was bothered by that). I've also seen plenty of people who weren't bothered by the waves, myself included. So that is still subjective.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 08 mai 2011 - 09:44 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Zjarcal wrote...

It is also a fact that issues such as waves and reused areas affect the enjoyment of the game for people.

Those are a couple facts colored by an opinion. It is indeed a fact that the game reuses areas, but I've seen more than a fair share of people who weren't bothered by it (for the record, I'm not one of them, I was bothered by that). I've also seen plenty of people who weren't bothered by the waves, myself included. So that is still subjective.

Sorry I should of said (some) people.

[andraip]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

andraip wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

The following central aspects of BG<->DA:O gameplay and combat have been removed, nerfed or made incidental in DA2:

Tactical combat.
Party control.
Character customisation.

Sorry? Are you talking about DA2? My version of DA2 had all of these 3 things (and imo there weren't nerfed or made incidental).

The combat of DA2 is far more tactical then in DA:O, althought in casual DA2 combat isn't tactical at all, but NM is a different thing.

Party control and character customization aren't that much diferent from DA:O.

Oh, I respectfully, but completely disagree.

I suspect, but I can't be sure, that lots and lots of other people would disagree with you on that, too.

Well the party control and character customization are a little subjective, but combat? I'm curious to know why you think that it's that less tactical then DA:O combat, the combat mechanics are the same you know... and the CCC's are more tactical then the Spell Combos from DA:O since they involve different classes.

[Realmzmaster]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...
Gamers are upset that they have no control over their companions armor.
[*snip*]
What gamers are upset about is that little cookie from DAO was taken away.

and you think that's what people are upset about, do you?

Honestly?

Do you think that's a very insightful grasp of their complaints?

You really need to read the rest of my posts in this thread and read the posts on the other threads. That was one of the criticisms. I did not say it was the only one.  I know the criticisms that are leveled at the game. Many of which I agree with. The point I was making is about realism. The discussion was about the unrealistic combat of DA 2 using two handed swords. The point is that this is a fantasy game. If I wanted totally realistic combat I would play Mount & Blade.

[tmp7704]

andraip wrote...

but combat? I'm curious to know why you think that it's that less tactical then DA:O combat, the combat mechanics are the same you know... and the CCC's are more tactical then the Spell Combos from DA:O since they involve different classes.

While combat mechanics are the same, the ability to execute all spells instantly and cover large distances across battlefield also in near instant means it's no longer required to anticipate enemy movements and to react to them in advance. It becomes more of a game of  reactive whack-a-mole and that can be seen less tactical, depending on your view.

The CCC are quite similar to spell combos imo since they both can involve mutliple characters -- the difference is just, while before it required characters of the same class, now it requires characters of different classes. Also, the melee in DAO did have option to shatter frozen targets of the mages, so you could say overall DAO was bit more flexible with its version of "CCC" than DA2 is with its own implementation. Whether that's for better or worse would be largely matter of personal preferences.

[Gotholhorakh]

Realmzmaster wrote...

You really need to read the rest of my posts in this thread and read the posts on the other threads. That was one of the criticisms. I did not say it was the only one.  I know the criticisms that are leveled at the game. Many of which I agree with. The point I was making is about realism. The discussion was about the unrealistic combat of DA 2 using two handed swords. The point is that this is a fantasy game. If I wanted totally realistic combat I would play Mount & Blade.

If I have not done you justice in the context, I apologise, but it's kind of hard to do that when you frame a sentence in terms of apparent absolutes, if you see what I mean.

Anyway, in terms of fantasy realism, I have just been arguing this elsewhere, my stance is similar to yours, it becomes a bit stupid given the context in which the hitting is happening.

However, in order to make a game universe a workable construct in which players can suspend disbelief, the 'verse must be consistent enough with itself and with what a person might reasonably expect in the minutiae, that it doesn't slam the roleplayer out of character.

The point about fire being maybe hot, ice being cold, etc. is a valid one, I think if you're running a game and two of your people remark on the fact that the last orcspawn was wearing a digital watch, or that everyone explodes into a billion bags of mince every time you nick them with a dagger, your construct is probably getting shaky.

You could argue about it, for sure, and you could rightly bring the "fantasy realism" argument - but it's the fact it's being raised that should still be raising alarm bells, even if they are misguidedly calling the problem "realism".

Please note I'm framing this in DMing terms because I am a dinosaur (and calling it DMing to annoy my fellow dinosaurs)

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 08 mai 2011 - 10:09 .

[Realmzmaster]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

You really need to read the rest of my posts in this thread and read the posts on the other threads. That was one of the criticisms. I did not say it was the only one.  I know the criticisms that are leveled at the game. Many of which I agree with. The point I was making is about realism. The discussion was about the unrealistic combat of DA 2 using two handed swords. The point is that this is a fantasy game. If I wanted totally realistic combat I would play Mount & Blade.

If I have not done you justice in the context, I apologise, but it's kind of hard to do that when you frame a sentence in terms of apparent absolutes, if you see what I mean.

Anyway, in terms of fantasy realism, I have just been arguing this elsewhere, my stance is similar to yours, it becomes a bit stupid given the context in which the hitting is happening.

However, in order to make a game universe a workable construct in which players can suspend disbelief, the 'verse must be consistent enough with itself and with what a person might reasonably expect in the minutiae, that it doesn't slam the roleplayer out of character.

The point about fire being maybe hot, ice being cold, etc. is a valid one, I think if you're running a game and two of your people remark on the fact that the last orcspawn was wearing a digital watch, or that everyone explodes into a billion bags of mince every time you nick them with a dagger, your construct is probably getting shaky.

You could argue about it, for sure, and you could rightly bring the "fantasy realism" argument - but it's the fact it's being raised that should still be raising alarm bells, even if they are misguidedly calling the problem "realism".

Please note I'm framing this in DMing terms because I am a dinosaur (and calling it DMing to annoy my fellow dinosaurs)

You are correct. If I see an orc wearing digital watch it would be out of place given the context and setting. But the discussion was on two handed swords in DAO vs DA 2 and how unrealistic the speed factor is in DA 2 given the weight and length of the sword. The difference is not great enough to matter IMHO, but others think it does. What came before the dinosaurs? I think I belong to that era.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 08 mai 2011 - 10:18 .

[Firefeng]

tmp7704 wrote...

Firefeng wrote...

Increasing the physical strength and attack speed of characters isn't quite equivalent to equating fire having completely different physical and energetic properties than it does in the real world. 

Ironically enough, what you're poviding now is highly subjective opinion based on properties of the real world, and applying that reasoning to the world where the magic is supposed to make people accept that everything goes.

Btw, ever noticed that swinging a large sword at superhuman speed doesn't actually bother people when it's done under influence of the Haste spell or such? Maybe they can take the magic factor into account better than you give them credit for.

Odd.  I assumed if you wanted to have a metaphysical discussion, you'd have done so outside of a thread specifically asking for objective reasons for your malcontent (of which you have provided nada/zilch/nothing/etc.).

The only semblance my response has to irony is that it is a tongue-in-cheek retort to a subjective opinion leveled in reaction to a request for objective criticism of the game.  At no point did I ever suggest my posts bore the meagerest visage of objectivity; instead, I matched the level of subjectivity exhibited by the ones to whom I was responding.  

So, no, I'm not quite following the "rules" set by the OP in this thread.  But, yes, we both now have egg on our faces because neither you nor I actually made a tangible point without letting our insignificant opinions interfere.  

The difference being that I didn't have to resort to puerile hyperbole to make my point.  Although, if you require lessons in adequately conveying your point to a particular audience without tripping over your own feet, I'd be more than happy to offer my services for (CLICK GOLD ICON IN THE CIRCLE RESPONSE WHEEL FOR LOTS OF MONEYS).

[tmp7704]

Personally i'm meh on the DA2 two-handers animations not because it's "unrealistic" or whatever, but rather because the style they went with very much fails to invoke that "awesome" they're supposedly aiming at. Jabbing a target at 30 swings a minute with little effect on their health bar and animations completely lacking momentum give me an impression of opposite, if anything -- that the characters are running around with nerf weapons.

[tmp7704]

Firefeng wrote...

Odd.  I assumed if you wanted to have a metaphysical discussion, you'd have done so outside of a thread specifically asking for objective reasons for your malcontent (of which you have provided nada/zilch/nothing/etc.).

Your assumption is wrong. And given this particular angle of discussion was started with your comments how silly it's to complain about realism in the universe with magic, isn't it quite hypocritical to try and lambast others for acting the same way you do?

As for my personal list of technical complaints, it can be found earlier in this thread. From your comment i can only presume you haven't bothered before jumping in.

[DanConnors]

This is a fact (for me). I have replayed the original DAO five times now, and enjoyed it every time. I have been completely unable to finish DA2 due to paralyzing boredom.

[Morroian]

tmp7704 wrote...

While combat mechanics are the same, the ability to execute all spells instantly and cover large distances across battlefield also in near instant means it's no longer required to anticipate enemy movements and to react to them in advance. It becomes more of a game of  reactive whack-a-mole and that can be seen less tactical, depending on your view.

There is still a slight delay in the time it takes to cast, and given aoe spells do not follow an enemy in DA2 I still have to anticipate where the best spot to place an aoe spell is based on enemy movement. 

Modifié par Morroian, 08 mai 2011 - 11:00 .

[Master Shiori]

tmp7704 wrote...

The CCC are quite similar to spell combos imo since they both can involve mutliple characters -- the difference is just, while before it required characters of the same class, now it requires characters of different classes. Also, the melee in DAO did have option to shatter frozen targets of the mages, so you could say overall DAO was bit more flexible with its version of "CCC" than DA2 is with its own implementation. Whether that's for better or worse would be largely matter of personal preferences.

Your first point is a matter of opinion, which I can't argue with.

But the CCC in Origins were hardly on the same level as in DA2. In Orgins, only mages could freeze their targets, which, granted, could then be shattered by any class on a successful critical hit. That's similar to the brittle effect in DA2, except in DA:O it was often a one-hit-kill combo for taking out tough opponents like drakes.

In DA2 you have stagger and disorient in addition to brittle. None of those effects allow you to instantly kill your opponent, but by carefully choosing your abilities and companions, you can exploit them to dramatically increase the damage output of your party. 

The whole system is much more complex and takes some carefull planning to get the most out of it. Hawke might use shield bash to stagger his target so Merrill can deal extra damage with her chain lightning. Then I can have Anders make it brittle and Varric will follow by using archer's lance. 

That's way beyond any CCC you could pull off in Origins.

[tmp7704]

Morroian wrote...

Given aoe spells do not follow an enemy in DA2 I still have to anticipate where the best spot to place an aoe spell is based on enemy movement.

Only if you choose not to use the instant force pull spells to bunch them together and then to nail them on the spot, though?

[Sister Helen]

Elhanan wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Ah, but is it realistic to jump 20 feet up into the air while holding 2 daggers, and then dropping down without breaking your legs?

And maybe now we know the origin of Dwarves....

[Finger quotes]  "Dwarves."  [Fingerquotes] Short humanoids with long arms who are able to jump 20 feet up into the air while holding two daggers and are able to land without injury.  We have dismissed this claim.

Modifié par Sister Helen, 08 mai 2011 - 11:02 .

[tmp7704]

Master Shiori wrote...

The whole system is much more complex

Ehh, it is still the system of use one skill to put effect on a target, use the second skill on the affected target to get the bonus damage. "Complex" just isn't a word i'd use to describe such a system. It could even be argued the system got simplified down in a way -- rather than having a dozen of different combinations between specific skills you now have 3 combinations which can be both invoked and utilized by multiple abilities each.

Modifié par tmp7704, 08 mai 2011 - 11:08 .

[TEWR]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

Firefeng wrote...

I'm still trying to understand the complaints of people pointing out that heavy, 2-handed weapons aren't being wielded realistically in battles involving magical beings raining down lightning and fire from the heavens upon demonic entities from a DIFFERENT PLANE OF EXISTENCE.

Really?

haha, I find those complaints amusing.  Most of the physical combat is unrealistic.  heck look at duel weilding now.

What was unrealistic about rogues? Aside from the poorly done smoke bomb-to-backstab attack that looks somewhat like teleporting.

Rolling to an enemy position for a better attack is realistic.

Ah, but is it realistic to jump 20 feet up into the air while holding 2 daggers, and then dropping down without breaking your legs?

Jumping 20 feet up? That's exaggerating it more than a bit. They jump 2 or 3 feet in the air and maybe jump across 15 feet to their target, which is only realistic if you're building up momentum. I've done it before in my Gym classes, and even without momentum I managed to jump a little less than 10 feet.

[Aradace]

Gisle Aune wrote...

- Over the top. Serious RPG players do not want excess bloodsplatter and greatswords swung like toothpicks, even though Origins' animations might have been too slow on occation.

Re-read the topic.  OP said to post facts, not personal opinions.  As much as you'd like to think otherwise, this is an opinion.

In fact, this isnt the only person who has strayed from posting "facts" and gone to posting opinons.  OP's gonna have to change the title pretty soon into "OPINIONS" instead of facts >.>.

Modifié par Aradace, 08 mai 2011 - 11:19 .

[Louis deGuerre]

Zjarcal wrote...

It is also a fact that issues such as waves and reused areas affect the enjoyment of the game for people.

Those are a couple facts colored by an opinion. It is indeed a fact that the game reuses areas, but I've seen more than a fair share of people who weren't bothered by it (for the record, I'm not one of them, I was bothered by that). I've also seen plenty of people who weren't bothered by the waves, myself included. So that is still subjective.

Your opinion does not matter and is wrong as it is subjective.

The only person on the planet who did not think the endless (and badly) reused areas were pathetic is probably Mike Laidlaw.

Disclaimer : This fact is NOT SUBJECTIVE and so I am 110 % righter than you.

[Night Prowler76]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

Firefeng wrote...

I'm still trying to understand the complaints of people pointing out that heavy, 2-handed weapons aren't being wielded realistically in battles involving magical beings raining down lightning and fire from the heavens upon demonic entities from a DIFFERENT PLANE OF EXISTENCE.

Really?

haha, I find those complaints amusing.  Most of the physical combat is unrealistic.  heck look at duel weilding now.

What was unrealistic about rogues? Aside from the poorly done smoke bomb-to-backstab attack that looks somewhat like teleporting.

Rolling to an enemy position for a better attack is realistic.

Ah, but is it realistic to jump 20 feet up into the air while holding 2 daggers, and then dropping down without breaking your legs?

Jumping 20 feet up? That's exaggerating it more than a bit. They jump 2 or 3 feet in the air and maybe jump across 15 feet to their target, which is only realistic if you're building up momentum. I've done it before in my Gym classes, and even without momentum I managed to jump a little less than 10 feet.

You didnt do it with 2 swords, armor and a whole bunch of loot strapped to you lol

[Aradace]

Night Prowler76 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

Firefeng wrote...

I'm still trying to understand the complaints of people pointing out that heavy, 2-handed weapons aren't being wielded realistically in battles involving magical beings raining down lightning and fire from the heavens upon demonic entities from a DIFFERENT PLANE OF EXISTENCE.

Really?

haha, I find those complaints amusing.  Most of the physical combat is unrealistic.  heck look at duel weilding now.

What was unrealistic about rogues? Aside from the poorly done smoke bomb-to-backstab attack that looks somewhat like teleporting.

Rolling to an enemy position for a better attack is realistic.

Ah, but is it realistic to jump 20 feet up into the air while holding 2 daggers, and then dropping down without breaking your legs?

Jumping 20 feet up? That's exaggerating it more than a bit. They jump 2 or 3 feet in the air and maybe jump across 15 feet to their target, which is only realistic if you're building up momentum. I've done it before in my Gym classes, and even without momentum I managed to jump a little less than 10 feet.

You didnt do it with 2 swords, armor and a whole bunch of loot strapped to you lol

Again, this is an opinion.  Not a fact.  This aspect does not make it a FACT that it is a bad game.  This, again, is an opinion.  Andraste's dimpled butt-cheeks you people need to learn to f***ing read the title of a topic.

[TEWR]

Night Prowler76 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Jumping 20 feet up? That's exaggerating it more than a bit. They jump 2 or 3 feet in the air and maybe jump across 15 feet to their target, which is only realistic if you're building up momentum. I've done it before in my Gym classes, and even without momentum I managed to jump a little less than 10 feet.

You didnt do it with 2 swords, armor and a whole bunch of loot strapped to you lol

If we're talking about Isabella wielding daggers, she's barely wearing anything, so armor isn't an issue. As for daggers, constant training will make them easier to lift everyday. That's why people increase the amount of weight on weight lifting equipment. It starts to get too easy.

Though the loot bit brings up a good question. Where the hell do they store it? They have no visible backpack so the only logical explanation is that they shove it up their ass and take it out when needed.