50 réponses à ce sujet

[GuardianAngel470]

 If I were TIM and I wanted to convince someone who has already seen the dark side of my organization (either directly if you are sole survivor or directly through the Hades Dogs levels) I would populate the Normandy with people freshly recruited and that show no xenophobic tendancy. I would lie my way into an academy award to this person's face and say all the right things to make them feel at ease.

I would then proceed to use this person to achieve my own ends and pay no regard for their safety.

And guess what? TIM does this. Ken and Gabby, Kelly, Mess Sergeant Gardner, Hawthorne, and all the other NPCs on the Normandy show every indication of new recruits. None of them are xenophobic and all of them are ex-alliance or random colonists.

Where are the Kai Leng's, the Grayson's, the Dr. Wayne's, or any of the other members of Cerberus' nefarious activities? The vast majority of the player's experience with Cerberus personnel is either specisist, a mad scientist, or just plain incompetent yet the Normandy is somehow populated with friendly, accepting, predominantly ex-alliance soldiers. That to me just smells like a manipulation. Not one Cerberus member on the Normandy shows any of those qualities; not one.

Now TIM in Retribution is shown to be an absolutely excellent liar. This is evidenced when Aria talks to TIM and can't find any hint of deception in a complete lie (for those that haven't read it, alot is said about Aria's ability to read body language, a trait that she used to great success in her rise to power and in the centuries that followed). The player also has experience with this in the leadup to Horizon and the Collector vessel.

So why then would someone believe a word he says? He lies fairly often to the player and where I come from that pretty much calls into doubt every word he utters. Add to that the type of lies he says (manipulation with very little regard for human life, even Shepard's) and I have a hard time taking anything he says on faith. 

By the end of the game the player (if you destroy the base) knows that TIM's true motivations are human dominance. Not human excellence, but human dominance. This implies that TIM believes that humans are for some unspecified reason superior and worthy of subjugating the entire civilized Galaxy. I don't know about you but that sounds a bit like social darwinism to me, and I see that as further proof that the crew of the Normandy was a manipulation.

That's my take on TIM and Cerberus anyway.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 08 mai 2011 - 05:03 .

[corporal doody]

cuz the dude is rich. he is a futuristic Hugh Hefner....just more sadistic...less marriages...and no magazines or pay per view channels

[AdmiralCheez]

Aw, come on, who wouldn't trust a face like this?



Seriously, good analysis--the man's a master manipulator, to the point where even the player is occasionally duped into trusting him. I came really close; just before you go through Omega 4, he says he trusts Shepard, and if you select the proper dialogue, you'll hear that his arguments for keeping the base are incredibly well-reasoned and persuasive. Hell, the only time his crazy side is ever made blatantly obvious is at the end game, where he either does his yay-humans-evil-smile thing if you kept the base and his CERBERUS IS HUMANITY spaz attack if you blew it.

[JeanLuc761]

TIM is a charismatic, confident leader that gets things done. He might lie through his teeth while doing so, but some people find that sort of determination and leadership to be admirable.

I don't trust him in the slightest, but I am impressed by his intelligence. I'm hoping Mass Effect 3 doesn't turn him into a moustache-twirling villain.

Another possible reason for people to trust TIM is that they, themselves want human dominance and don't care about the other species. I've actually met quite a few people who think humans should be superior.

[Saaziel]

You still have to consider that T.I.M. wanted the best for the Collector base mission.

Meaning that Aliens would be inevitably involved; The problem of having Xenophobic Cerberus members on board is the Cooperation aspect of the mission. It wouldn't surprise me if T.I.M. overlooked more qualified but xenophobic individuals in favour of less qualified and less idealistic members for that reason alone.

In this case , the Whole takes precedent over the particular.

Edit : My point is that there is a thin line between a healthy dose of caution and flat out paranoia .

Modifié par Saaziel, 08 mai 2011 - 05:45 .

[lovgreno]

Nobody trusts TIMmy with anything and he doesn't expect it either. But, Shepard was rather desperate for help so he had to swallow his pride and work for that gambler TIMmy.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

mrsph wrote...

People also trust Morinth despite her being a Grade A sociopath.

All you have to do is be charming.

Morinth is a lovely woman, she's just misunderstood. Sadly my game has a strange glitch where if Shep romances her it goes to the game over screen. Very strange.

I quite like the illusive man and I don't think he is evil. He's certainly manipulative and a liar as is evident from the mission he sends Shepard on knowing full well its a trap (why not just tell Shep, she'd have went anyway). One thing I would trust about the illusive man is that he is sincere in wanting to defeat the reapers. Considering not many other powerful people even believe the reapers exisit he totally makes sense as an ally. I also think it makes sense for Shepard to keep the collector base to get information/technology to use against the reapers, I don't doubt TIM would also use the information for his own gain but if it helps against the reapers it would be worth it. Maybe after the war with the reapers TIM will become a problem but lets cross that bridge when we come to it (assuming the reapers don't kill everyone).

[PsychoWARD23]

I kept the base at the end by accident, DAT CHARISMA

[Seboist]

It isn't about trusting him on a personal level. Cerberus fans trust that he'll do everything in his power for the betterment of humanity.

Admiral Hackett also manipulates Shepard all the time and I love him for that too. =)

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

I trust TIM and Cerberus in that I know they will help fight against the Reapers, even if they reason for doing is not of the kindness of their hearts. Which is also why I save the base.

[Looks at ME3]

Oh well....

[Alienmorph]

He was just a necessary evil in ME2. I've never trusted him and neither my Shepard.

[Confused-Shepard]

mrsph wrote...

Seboist wrote...

It isn't about trusting him on a personal level. Cerberus fans trust that he'll do everything in his power for the betterment of humanity.

Admiral Hackett also manipulates Shepard all the time and I love him for that too. =)

Yeah, Hackett does purposely send a renegade Shepard on a mission to "negoiate" with a warlord. Knowing that Shepard will probably just kill him.

People need to stop viewing things in black and white. The Alliance is just another shade of grey.

I like the idea that Hackett is not military version of Dumbledore but rather something closer to Big Boss from METAL GEAR. A master manipulator and tactician. I want to cal him out on the events of Arrival. 

[nranola]

Sarcastic Tasha wrote...

Morinth is a lovely woman, she's just misunderstood. Sadly my game has a strange glitch where if Shep romances her it goes to the game over screen. Very strange.

Looks like Morinth got her way with Shepard after all.

lovgreno wrote...

Nobody trusts TIMmy with anything and he doesn't expect it either. But, Shepard was rather desperate for help so he had to swallow his pride and work for that gambler TIMmy.

This.

Whether you trust TIM or not, fact of the matter is he's the only one with the resources and contacts to take the Reapers down - everyone else either doesn't believe that they exist or has politicians ****blocking them every step of the way. You're not left with much of a choice but to follow on his leads.

[JunMadine]

I don't think Shepard actually trusts TIM as much as he is the only person who can help you do what must be done. You have no real choice but to trust him a little.

Well until the end then you can blow up the base, give him the finger and steal his stuff.

[Golden Owl]

[quote]GuardianAngel470 wrote...

 If I were TIM and I wanted to convince someone who has already seen the dark side of my organization (either directly if you are sole survivor or directly through the Hades Dogs levels) I would populate the Normandy with people freshly recruited and that show no xenophobic tendancy. I would lie my way into an academy award to this person's face and say all the right things to make them feel at ease.

I would then proceed to use this person to achieve my own ends and pay no regard for their safety.

And guess what? TIM does this. Ken and Gabby, Kelly, Mess Sergeant Gardner, Hawthorne, and all the other NPCs on the Normandy show every indication of new recruits. None of them are xenophobic and all of them are ex-alliance or random colonists.

Where are the Kai Leng's, the Grayson's, the Dr. Wayne's, or any of the other members of Cerberus' nefarious activities? The vast majority of the player's experience with Cerberus personnel is either specisist, a mad scientist, or just plain incompetent yet the Normandy is somehow populated with friendly, accepting, predominantly ex-alliance soldiers. That to me just smells like a manipulation. Not one Cerberus member on the Normandy shows any of those qualities; not one.[/quote]

I had noticed that about the Normandy crew also...they all seem to be new recruits and blissfully unaware of who TIM really is and Cerberus history...Kelly makes one comment, when challenged by Shep about Cerberus, though her reply paints her as someone who's quite idealistic and unaware of the Cerberus that Shep has dealt with.

[quote]Now TIM in Retribution is shown to be an absolutely excellent liar. This is evidenced when Aria talks to TIM and can't find any hint of deception in a complete lie (for those that haven't read it, alot is said about Aria's ability to read body language, a trait that she used to great success in her rise to power and in the centuries that followed). The player also has experience with this in the leadup to Horizon and the Collector vessel.

So why then would someone believe a word he says? He lies fairly often to the player and where I come from that pretty much calls into doubt every word he utters. Add to that the type of lies he says (manipulation with very little regard for human life, even Shepard's) and I have a hard time taking anything he says on faith.[/quote]

My personal rule: Never trust a word TIM utters.

[quote]By the end of the game the player (if you destroy the base) knows that TIM's true motivations are human dominance. Not human excellence, but human dominance. This implies that TIM believes that humans are for some unspecified reason superior and worthy of subjugating the entire civilized Galaxy. I don't know about you but that sounds a bit like social darwinism to me, and I see that as further proof that the crew of the Normandy was a manipulation.[/quote]

I love your line..."Not human excellence, but human dominance"...I think you have nailed TIM's attitude right there and very eloquently...would you mind if I used this in any future debates I may find myself in? I can see so much there, it really has struck a chord in me.

[quote]That's my take on TIM and Cerberus anyway.[/quote]

Thank you for such an indepth and well thought out take on TIM, Guardian Angel.
[/quote]

[Autoclave]

Because I genuinely like TIM:
1. He is cool
2. He likes to plan
3. He is well focused on his objectives
4. He is mysterious

I'd rather be on TIM's side, even if that would mean to be a bad guy.

Trust me, there are not so many cool antagonists (if we try to perceive TIM as one) in video games today. Most of other antagonists just plain suck.

[Quole]

Because people are idiots.

[Seboist]

Autoclave wrote...

Because I genuinely like TIM:
1. He is cool
2. He likes to plan
3. He is well focused on his objectives
4. He is mysterious

I'd rather be on TIM's side, even if that would mean to be a bad guy.

Trust me, there are not so many cool antagonists (if we try to perceive TIM as one) in video games today. Most of other antagonists just plain suck.

TIM is the greatest character in ME. He shows great admiration for Shepard despite his manipulation of him and even mourns his death in the bad endings. Even if Shepard blows up the CB he still wants to be on his side.

He's far better than that one dimensional kiss ass Anderson who never develops beyond his Mr.Miyagi role.

[DeadLetterBox]

The fact that people can look at everything Cerberus did in the first game, and everything TIM did in the second, and still say he's not a bad guy, not an evil guy, and is remotely trustworthy just proves that he's well written.

For those of you going on about shades of grey-- it is possible to do really evil things for what you think may be the right reasons. Over time, you start to do more evil things to accomplish less important stuff. Eventually, you consider the evil options first, because you believe they have served you well in the past and because they seem so natural now. Evil men rarely wake up in the morning, look in the mirror, and say "wow, I'm evil." Usually they have convinced themselves that their ruthless tactics and accumulation of personal power are for the best.

I can respect TIM as a well-written antagonist with an impressive depth of character and a true belief that he is a good person making hard decisions. Saren *also* believed this about himself. Just because I think he's a compelling character does not mean I want to work for him or with him. And trusting him is just idiocy, whether you like him or not.

I also think from a literary perspective, TIM is kind of a warning. Just a heads-up. Watch how things turn out for him, and remember it when you face similar decisions. I bet it'll matter.

[Seboist]

DeadLetterBox wrote...

The fact that people can look at everything Cerberus did in the first game, and everything TIM did in the second, and still say he's not a bad guy, not an evil guy, and is remotely trustworthy just proves that he's well written.

For those of you going on about shades of grey-- it is possible to do really evil things for what you think may be the right reasons. Over time, you start to do more evil things to accomplish less important stuff. Eventually, you consider the evil options first, because you believe they have served you well in the past and because they seem so natural now. Evil men rarely wake up in the morning, look in the mirror, and say "wow, I'm evil." Usually they have convinced themselves that their ruthless tactics and accumulation of personal power are for the best.

I can respect TIM as a well-written antagonist with an impressive depth of character and a true belief that he is a good person making hard decisions. Saren *also* believed this about himself. Just because I think he's a compelling character does not mean I want to work for him or with him. And trusting him is just idiocy, whether you like him or not.

I also think from a literary perspective, TIM is kind of a warning. Just a heads-up. Watch how things turn out for him, and remember it when you face similar decisions. I bet it'll matter.

TIM will always be the hero who saved humanity from the Collectors and Reapers in my book.

[Golden Owl]

DeadLetterBox wrote...

The fact that people can look at everything Cerberus did in the first game, and everything TIM did in the second, and still say he's not a bad guy, not an evil guy, and is remotely trustworthy just proves that he's well written.

For those of you going on about shades of grey-- it is possible to do really evil things for what you think may be the right reasons. Over time, you start to do more evil things to accomplish less important stuff. Eventually, you consider the evil options first, because you believe they have served you well in the past and because they seem so natural now. Evil men rarely wake up in the morning, look in the mirror, and say "wow, I'm evil." Usually they have convinced themselves that their ruthless tactics and accumulation of personal power are for the best.

+1...how true.