50 réponses à ce sujet

[AdmiralCheez]

@DeadLetterBox: Well said.

[theelementslayer]

I dont trust him but I do understand what he is doing. Its that whole notion of we need him right now, doesnt matter if I trust him or not. Thats my opinion.

[DeadLetterBox]

theelementslayer wrote...

I dont trust him but I do understand what he is doing. Its that whole notion of we need him right now, doesnt matter if I trust him or not. Thats my opinion.

I can understand this viewpoint.  You can't trust him, but he'll be true to his nature.

People who like TIM might want to read the novels that he's in, Mass Effect Ascension and especially Mass Effect Retribution.  The last one in particular crawls into the man's head a little bit, and shows you some of his thinking.

[ADLegend21]

uhm, voiced by Martin Sheen. He's got one of my backup femsheps wrapped around his finger.

[Seboist]

ADLegend21 wrote...

uhm, voiced by Martin Sheen. He's got one of my backup femsheps wrapped around his finger.

I wish he could be a LI for my femshep but BW has an aversion for "bad boy" romances for female player characters for some reason.

[jwalker]

I don't trust TIM and neither do my Shepards.
The game just won't give us the chance to show that distrust

[TheChris92]

ADLegend21 wrote...

uhm, voiced by Martin Sheen. He's got one of my backup femsheps wrapped around his finger.

Dat voice! <3 I admit it's hard for me to hate Martin Sheen. xD

Modifié par TheChris92, 09 mai 2011 - 03:02 .

[Robhuzz]

Another possible reason for people to trust TIM is that they, themselves want human dominance and don't care about the other species. I've actually met quite a few people who think humans should be superior.

That's because, and if you listen to all of harbinger's comments on the humans and other species, you'll notice he wholeheartedly agrees, Humans ARE a superior species.

About TIM. I never fully trusted him since he seems to be the type that will say just about anything to get his way, and he's a darn good manipulator. Like many I hope he isn't turned into a classical villain in ME3, but rather a calculating adversary with his own personal agenda that just happens to counter Shepard's.

In the end it doesn't really matter though. All who stand in the way of my Shepard in ME3 will be destroyed.

[lolwut666]

In-universe, I'm fairly certain that virually nobody outside of Cerberus trusts the Illusive Man.

If you mean among the fanbase, I have no idea.

[GuardianAngel470]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Why do people disbelieve everything TIM says? TIM never outright lies to us, he usually tells lies of omission. Frankly, I only "trust him" in the sense that I "trust" that he regards me as an asset and not a friend and that he will always do what is in his own best interests.

An intentional lie of ommision is still a lie. in fact, it is even more sophisticated and manipulative to tell a lie of ommission than a regular, flat out lie because you have to know what parts of the truth will enrage/dissuade/force a change of position in your listener in order to omit that information.

Also, how do people know that TIM's real goal is to better humanity? So far as I can tell only two people state this position: Miranda and TIM. Miranda's word can't be trusted in this particular case because the only way for her to know that is to be a good judge of character, which Wilson and Nicket prove wrong.

TIM's word can't be trusted because of the things I've already said. So it is entirely possible his real goal is just to become a galactic emperor. I'm not saying that that is why, but it is possible.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 10 mai 2011 - 02:11 .

[DeadLetterBox]

Saphra Deden wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Also, how do people know that TIM's real goal is to better humanity?

I know from the novels. As for my Shepard, he obviously doesn't trust the Illusive Man that much.

People's goals and what they get for their efforts aren't the same thing.  I'm sure TIM thinks he's bettering humanity.  There are lots of people who believe that.  Doesn't mean those of us who have to live with the consequences would agree.

At the end of the second game, TIM says he wants to secure "human domination".  Domination isn't a one-off thing.  It takes a lot of work.  Usually violent work.  It also makes the society that strives for it behave a certain way.  A lot of people want domination because they feel safer that way.  Sometimes they think it's the only way to feel safe.  They don't realize it just makes them a bigger target.

Besides, even if you trust TIM to use the technology (which I frankly don't understand) you still have to take into account that the man will die eventually.  Who takes over after him?  Can you trust them?  

[Malanek]

The key word is "anything". Sure you can't trust him about everything but sometimes you can trust evil barstewards when they have the same goals as you.

[DeadLetterBox]

Saphra Deden wrote...

DeadLetterBox wrote...

Doesn't mean those of us who have to live with the consequences would agree.

What has that got do with anything? TIM is either dedicated to the human cause or he isn't. To date there is no indication that he's lying about his motives and lots of evidence that says he's telling the truth. You could argue that his methods and vision are flawed, sure, but that doesn't mean he's lying about what he wants for humankind.

DeadLetterBox wrote...

They don't realize it just makes them a bigger target.

Bigger, but stronger too.

DeadLetterBox wrote...

Who takes over after him?  Can you trust them?  

Worry about that when the time comes. You can't control the future.

Of course you can control the future.  If, for example, you don't want your enemies to get their hands on awesome, galaxy changing technology, you can destroy it to make sure nobody gets it.  Future controlled.

[DeadLetterBox]

Saphra Deden wrote...

DeadLetterBox wrote...

Of course you can control the future.  If, for example, you don't want your enemies to get their hands on awesome, galaxy changing technology, you can destroy it to make sure nobody gets it.  Future controlled.

They are all going to get it anyway. However at least with the Collector base humanity is gaining a headstart over its rivals.

Which is really comforting for the handful of years it helps.  I want to ask something, though.  If you're willing to risk a certain amount of safety to do what you believe is right, does that make you stupid or brave?  What's the difference, considering you can't see what either decision is really going to cost?  Is there a circumstance in which doing the most pragmatic thing could be seen as cowardice?

I ask this because it seems you  like to debate, and I'd like to see what you think.  I think it's relevant to the whole Collector base issue.

[GuardianAngel470]

DeadLetterBox wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

DeadLetterBox wrote...

Of course you can control the future.  If, for example, you don't want your enemies to get their hands on awesome, galaxy changing technology, you can destroy it to make sure nobody gets it.  Future controlled.

They are all going to get it anyway. However at least with the Collector base humanity is gaining a headstart over its rivals.

Which is really comforting for the handful of years it helps.  I want to ask something, though.  If you're willing to risk a certain amount of safety to do what you believe is right, does that make you stupid or brave?  What's the difference, considering you can't see what either decision is really going to cost?  Is there a circumstance in which doing the most pragmatic thing could be seen as cowardice?

I ask this because it seems you  like to debate, and I'd like to see what you think.  I think it's relevant to the whole Collector base issue.

For the record, this isn't a Collector base topic. I'm not too keen on this ending up like every other topic that was about the Collector base, I've only had two of my threads locked (that I can remember) and it wasn't because they were controversial.

Please think of others when dealing with them, it makes communication a lot easier.

[DeadLetterBox]

Saphra Deden wrote...

DeadLetterBox wrote...

If you're willing to risk a certain amount of safety to do what you believe is right, does that make you stupid or brave?

I don't know, why don't you ask yourself that question each time you destroy the Collector base, passing up the best opportunity yet to study Reaper technology. 

You are the one heading into battle completely blind. You are the one risking safety.

Is there a circumstance in which doing the most pragmatic thing could be seen as cowardice?

I'm sure it could but why care? Let people call you a coward, or ruthless, or despicable. That's a small price to pay for doing the smart thing.

I believe in minimizing the risks where possible. Towards that end I believe going to war with the Reapers with extremely limited understanding of their technology is significantly more dangerous than studying the Collector base.

Mucking about with technology you don't understand that was created by an enemy that uses that technology as a trap is not really minimizing risk.    But that's not what you asked me at the beginning, is it?

I don't ask myself that question every time I destroy the Collector base because I firmly believe that base is just as much a trap as the derelict reaper proved to be for the scientists who studied it.  Every single group that has come into contact with Reaper tech and decided to study it instead of get rid of it has paid dearly for it.  

But assuming I didn't think the base was some sort of trap?  I flat don't trust the Illusive Man with the tech.  His intentions may be good, but that's by his own definition of what is good.  A definition I don't agree with.

Now if I didn't think the base was a trap, and I either trusted the Illusive Man with it or knew it would be in the care of someone I did trust, and I didn't think it would be passed to an enemy before others had developed the technology to counter it, then I might have considered saving it.  As it stands, I just think that since the Reapers use tech as a trap, the best thing to do is avoid using anything they've built.

I'm sure you'll say the study is worth it so we know our own tech will work.  I don't consider it worth the risk.  

Thanks for addressing the question.

[DeadLetterBox]

Saphra Deden wrote...

DeadLetterBox wrote...

Mucking about with technology you don't understand that was created by an enemy that uses that technology as a trap is not really minimizing risk.

Yes, it is. In order to avoid future "traps" (which by the way the idea that the Collector base is a trap stupid and the desperate argument of a person who knows they didn't make a rational decision) is to understand this technology. The reason this tech is dangerous is because we don't understand fully how it works or what it does. Once we master it we will no longer need to fear it. However we can't master it if we don't "muck about with it" first.

Which is more dangerous, experimenting with the isolated Collector base under controlled conditions or fighting against and being killed by entire armadas of Reaper technology as it invades the galaxy?

DeadLetterBox wrote...

I don't ask myself that question every time I destroy the Collector base because I firmly believe that base is just as much a trap...

Spare me your crappy fanfiction.

DeadLetterBox wrote...

But assuming I didn't think the base was some sort of trap?  I flat don't trust the Illusive Man with the tech.  His intentions may be good, but that's by his own definition of what is good.  A definition I don't agree with.

So you think saving the galaxy from extinction is bad. I must ask then, why are you fighting the Reapers?

DeadLetterBox wrote...

As it stands, I just think that since the Reapers use tech as a trap, the best thing to do is avoid using anything they've built.

Which means using what? Sticks and stones? I don't think that will be sufficient.

You only insult people when you've got no decent argument, had you ever noticed that?

You're no fun to play with anymore.  You pout when you don't know what to do next.  

[Elite Midget]

Why don't you?

[DeadLetterBox]

Elite Midget wrote...

Why don't you?

We all do sometimes, but right now I'm just disappointed.  I enjoy a good debate, but I got my fill of name-calling and unrelated insults a long time ago.  It's especially disappointing when the person I'm debating has shown him or herself capable of much better, more interesting, and well-thought-out arguments.  

[snfonseka]

Those eyes....