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[Nerdage]

Xilizhra wrote...

Quentin gave him details at one point. Dialogue between Quentin and Gascard shows that Quentin was working on necromancy before his wife died, but totally lost it thereafter; it could have been, and almost certainly was, written at any point during that time.

I still don't see what you're basing that on other than your desire to defend Orsino, there's no in-game reason to think Orsino didn't know what Quentin was doing.

[Xilizhra]

Could anyone have done well as First Enchanter of that hellhole?

[Xilizhra]

nerdage wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Quentin gave him details at one point. Dialogue between Quentin and Gascard shows that Quentin was working on necromancy before his wife died, but totally lost it thereafter; it could have been, and almost certainly was, written at any point during that time.

I still don't see what you're basing that on other than your desire to defend Orsino, there's no in-game reason to think Orsino didn't know what Quentin was doing.

He knew it, but he stopped supporting it. And once again, I bring up the "too evil and dangerous" line.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

Could anyone have done well as First Enchanter of that hellhole?

Not dramatically better with someone like Meredith around. But they could have avoided making it worse.

I still do not understand the point in researching about the Harvester (other than for a mediocre boss fight because the harvester showed up in the trailer), while that time and energy could have been spent to research something more subtle and more practical.

Like I don't know, maybe strengthening the veil in Kirkwall?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 mai 2011 - 08:18 .

[Nerdage]

And I go back to "there's no reason to believe him when he says that".

Lazy copy&paste:
Maybe part of it is down to him not getting enough screen time, but if we go on what we have Orsino's clearly playing both sides (pro circle and pro blood mage), dispite what he tells you. Speaking of "what he tells you", consider his agenda and who he's talking to. Of course he wants Hawke on-side, so the safe bet is to play the conservative pro cirlce mage, not all pro mages are also pro blood magic after all but even someone who's pro blood magic would likely side with the circle over the templars. Then at the end he wants to claim the moral high-ground, saying he "never believed in blood magic" but he's been "forced to it my Meredith". There's no reason to believe him either way.

[TobiTobsen]

Xilizhra wrote...

What Quentin is doing is not spirit magic. There is a difference between animating a corpse like a puppet or "reanimate" it by infusing a demon or something else, like Quentin did. Necromancy is not in the spirit school, it's blood magic.

But it seems far more efficient and useful here. I assume the "dangerous and evil" part is when it requires actual living sacrifices.

That thing he created could only shamble around, how exactly is that more effective than the spirit spell? The animated corpse had all the abilities from his former life.
We also saw in DAO that only rage and hunger demons were stupid enough to possess simple corpses. What use would that have? Those two kinds of demons are only interested in death and destruction and wouldn't take commands from the caster. They would probably just turn around and try to kill the necromancer himself.

[Herr Uhl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I still do not understand the point in researching about the Harvester (other than for a mediocre boss fight because the harvester showed up in the trailer), while that time and energy could have been spent to research something more subtle and more practical.

So the mad blood mage had the wrong priorities when it came to research? Go figure. And I think saying that he turned into the harvester because of the trailer is a bit backwards.

Like I don't know, maybe strengthening the veil in Kirkwall?

How?

[Xilizhra]

Like I don't know, maybe strengthening the veil in Kirkwall?

Interesting, but the only people who really knew what made it happen was the Band of Three, and they would have tried to stay away from the Circle. Orsino wouldn't have gotten that far without as much information.

Maybe part of it is down to him not getting enough screen time, but if we go on what we have Orsino's clearly playing both sides (pro circle and pro blood mage), dispite what he tells you. Speaking of "what he tells you", consider his agenda and who he's talking to. Of course he wants Hawke on-side, so the safe bet is to play the conservative pro cirlce mage, not all pro mages are also pro blood magic after all but even someone who's pro blood magic would likely side with the circle over the templars. Then at the end he wants to claim the moral high-ground, saying he "never believed in blood magic" but he's been "forced to it my Meredith". There's no reason to believe him either way.

When does he say that he favors the demonstrably evil actions of a blood mage that we see in the game?

[HTTP 404]

Orsino was just incompetent. but he looks and sounds cool!

[Xilizhra]

That thing he created could only shamble around, how exactly is that more effective than the spirit spell? The animated corpse had all the abilities from his former life.

It was also made long after Orsino split with him.

We also saw in DAO that only rage and hunger demons were stupid enough to possess simple corpses. What use would that have? Those two kinds of demons are only interested in death and destruction and wouldn't take commands from the caster. They would probably just turn around and try to kill the necromancer himself.

But Quentin did command the ones he raised.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...
So the mad blood mage had the wrong priorities when it came to research? Go figure. And I think saying that he turned into the harvester because of the trailer is a bit backwards.

The trailer thing was sarcasm, though I still maintain that in their rush, they very poorly tried to put a "cool" boss fight for little reason.

As for his research. There are more subtle and practical ways to be a mad bloodmage.

Like I don't know, maybe strengthening the veil in Kirkwall?

How?

If it's known, there wouldn't be a point in researching now would there?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 mai 2011 - 08:28 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

Like I don't know, maybe strengthening the veil in Kirkwall?

Interesting, but the only people who really knew what made it happen was the Band of Three, and they would have tried to stay away from the Circle. Orsino wouldn't have gotten that far without as much information.

I think he could have put some effort into it.

Or into something else, I just came up with it off the top of my head. I do not see the use of the Harvester. What was he hoping to do with it? To sacrifice a bunch of mages to become harvesters and then....conquer something? How would they be loyal to him and not go bezerk like he did?

Makes little sense to me.

[lazuli]

He gets no sympathy from me. What could have been a tragic betrayal of his own values just ended up looking like a spectacular lack of foresight. He, like many other characters in DA2, never had a chance to realize his true potential due to lackluster writing/time constraints.

[Xilizhra]

Or into something else, I just came up with it off the top of my head. I do not see the use of the Harvester. What was he hoping to do with it? To sacrifice a bunch of mages to become harvesters and then....conquer something? How would they be loyal to him and not go bezerk like he did?

I think he just stuck every bit of knowledge he had into his private library or something.

[Nerdage]

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe part of it is down to him not getting enough screen time, but if we go on what we have Orsino's clearly playing both sides (pro circle and pro blood mage), dispite what he tells you. Speaking of "what he tells you", consider his agenda and who he's talking to. Of course he wants Hawke on-side, so the safe bet is to play the conservative pro cirlce mage, not all pro mages are also pro blood magic after all but even someone who's pro blood magic would likely side with the circle over the templars. Then at the end he wants to claim the moral high-ground, saying he "never believed in blood magic" but he's been "forced to it my Meredith". There's no reason to believe him either way.

When does he say that he favors the demonstrably evil actions of a blood mage that we see in the game?

He doesn't, but he wouldn't, that's my point. Does he ever demonstrate he disapproves of 'evil' magic? Certainly he doesn't in his private letters with a blood mage he describes as a "dear friend", the only time we see his opinion without any political angle involved and he's encouraging his murdering, blood mage friend.

I get the feeling this argument is going to just go around in a circle, you getting that too?..

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

Or into something else, I just came up with it off the top of my head. I do not see the use of the Harvester. What was he hoping to do with it? To sacrifice a bunch of mages to become harvesters and then....conquer something? How would they be loyal to him and not go bezerk like he did?

I think he just stuck every bit of knowledge he had into his private library or something.

The Harvester thing is not supposed to be in his private library. How did he even know?

I'd call it impressive that he found out, if it wasn't so useless and impractical.

[Xilizhra]

Does he ever demonstrate he disapproves of 'evil' magic?

Yes. He sends you to spy on and if necessary destroy the corrupted mage underground.

Certainly he doesn't in his private letters with a blood mage he describes as a "dear friend", the only time we see his opinion without any political angle involved and he's encouraging his murdering, blood mage friend.

Do you have any evidence that it was written in Quentin's killy phase?

[TobiTobsen]

Xilizhra wrote...

That thing he created could only shamble around, how exactly is that more effective than the spirit spell? The animated corpse had all the abilities from his former life.

It was also made long after Orsino split with him.

How do you want to know that? I don't see any evidence for that.

Xilizhra wrote...

We also saw in DAO that only rage and hunger demons were stupid enough to possess simple corpses. What use would that have? Those two kinds of demons are only interested in death and destruction and wouldn't take commands from the caster. They would probably just turn around and try to kill the necromancer himself.

But Quentin did command the ones he raised.

"The ones"? I only saw the Frankenmother and there was no demon in that body. It was Leandra. He could control her with blood magic. Just like the blood mage gang in act 3 enthralls people to fight for them.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 08 mai 2011 - 08:39 .

[Xilizhra]

The Harvester thing is not supposed to be in his private library. How did he even know?

I'm guessing he picked it up from Quentin when they were still in correspondence... if I had to guess, it was his last project before his wife died and he started killing people.

[Xilizhra]

How do you want to know that? I don't see any evidence for that.

I've given you the quote numerous times.

"The ones"? I only saw the Frankenmother and there was no demon in that body. It was Leandra. He could control her with blood magic. Just like the blood mage gang in act 3 enthralls people to fight for them.

Multiple corpses, along with demons, attack you in that fight. Decimus and Grace also animate corpses to attack you in Acts 1 and 3.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Harvester thing is not supposed to be in his private library. How did he even know?

I'm guessing he picked it up from Quentin when they were still in correspondence... if I had to guess, it was his last project before his wife died and he started killing people.

I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up killing his own wife by accident.

[Nerdage]

Xilizhra wrote...

Does he ever demonstrate he disapproves of 'evil' magic?

Yes. He sends you to spy on and if necessary destroy the corrupted mage underground.

There's politics involved there, of course he wants to disassociate himself with a group of renegade blood mages, he still wants you on-side. Also, they attack you for working with Orsino, they aren't his side.

Certainly he doesn't in his private letters with a blood mage he describes as a "dear friend", the only time we see his opinion without any political angle involved and he's encouraging his murdering, blood mage friend.

Do you have any evidence that it was written in Quentin's killy phase?

You see? Circles. Might be best to just agree to disagree on this one, it just comes down to how you interpret the letter.

Modifié par nerdage, 08 mai 2011 - 08:52 .

[Xilizhra]

I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up killing his own wife by accident.

It would explain why he took it so badly...

[Rifneno]

Aww I'm gonna regret this...

Maria Caliban wrote...

We know he can leave the gallows. He's in hightown at the beginning of Act 3.

Generally speaking, you should use examples that don't end with the knight-commander calling for his execution.

Herr Uhl wrote...

Have the blood mage arrested, it is the point of his position. I can see why Meredith hits so hard against the mages when the one that the mages elected as their spokesperson actively hides maleficar.

Then it's a good thing you don't write laws.  Any system where someone will be punished for reporting a crime they did not knowingly assist in is simply broken.

Also, his job is an advocate for the Circle.  Taking care of maleficar is the templars' job.  "The First Enchanter is seen by apprentices as a father or mother figure, and an ambassador of peace to the Templars by the other mages."

TobiTobsen wrote...
Adding that to the fact that he seems to be pretty incompetent as a Frist Entchanter and he gets a zero percent approval rating of me. If he would have his circle under better control Meredith would just be a mad woman, but he proves her right in her paranoia.

How do you figure?  Varric says himself in explaining the situation to Cassandra that the tighter Meredith squeezed, the more they fought, and the more they fought the harder she squeezed.  Read Orsino's codex.  He's the only one who wanted the job of First Enchanter.  Because they all knew it was being asked to do the impossible.

TobiTobsen wrote...
What Quentin is doing is not spirit magic. There is a difference between animating a corpse like a puppet or "reanimate" it by infusing a demon or something else, like Quentin did. Necromany is not in the spirit school, it's blood magic.

There's no hard evidence Orsino knew what Quentin was doing when he helped him.  He only said that he was impressed with his research.  One of Quentin's own notes that we find shows he's researching tissue preservation, Orsino could have been refering to that.

nerdage wrote...
I still don't see what you're basing that on other than your desire to defend Orsino, there's no in-game reason to think Orsino didn't know what Quentin was doing.

Proof by lack of evidence is a fallacy.  Guilt is proven, not assumed.  Besides, why would he lie about it?  He says that right before committing suicide by harvester to fight Meredith and a pro-annulment Hawke.  No one knew he had ties to Quentin, he just admitted it of his own free will.  Why admit partial guilt and then lie about the rest?  It makes no sense.

[Xilizhra]

Interesting fact: when Meredith accuses Orsino of harboring blood mages, we can legitimately say she has no proof. She's three years late in the accusation (and that's stretching the definition of "harboring").