86 réponses à ce sujet

[Nerdage]

Rifneno wrote...

nerdage wrote...
I still don't see what you're basing that on other than your desire to defend Orsino, there's no in-game reason to think Orsino didn't know what Quentin was doing.

Proof by lack of evidence is a fallacy.  Guilt is proven, not assumed.  Besides, why would he lie about it?  He says that right before committing suicide by harvester to fight Meredith and a pro-annulment Hawke.  No one knew he had ties to Quentin, he just admitted it of his own free will.  Why admit partial guilt and then lie about the rest?  It makes no sense.

It's a letter saying "Here are some books on dark magic. Lovin' the work, keep it up!" Maybe it comes down to interpretation but that says "guilt" to me. Replace the books with a gun and, if the reciever went out and murdered a load of people, they're both liable.

Also, there's no real sense to his confessing either way, either Hawke's on his side and he decides to tell you he enabled the guy who murdered your mother even though you've decided to risk your own life to try and save him, or Hawke's against him and he decides to justify your killing him, jumping sepctacularly from the moral high-ground of "I'm only doing this because you forced me" down to "Remember how your mother was murdered? You're welcome." 

[HogarthHughes 3]

Orsino was ready to risk his life as a distraction to protect the nobility of Kirkwall. He was also very distraught over the deaths of his fellow mages in Hightown. Would he really lie about telling them to run? One of Quentin's victims was a circle mage as well, probably someone Orsino knew. I'm not convinced he knew that Quentin had been murdering people to obtain the body parts for his experiments.

[In Exile]

Rifneno wrote...
Then it's a good thing you don't write laws.  Any system where someone will be punished for reporting a crime they did not knowingly assist in is simply broken.

Also, his job is an advocate for the Circle.  Taking care of maleficar is the templars' job.  "The First Enchanter is seen by apprentices as a father or mother figure, and an ambassador of peace to the Templars by the other mages.

You mean ours, e.g. English common law? Orsino can be charged with accesory to murder. If you knowingly harbour a criminal (and insofar as DA is concerned, a blood mage or apostate is a criminal) then you're criminally liable.

If you know a crime is being commited and fail to report it, you can be charged as an accesory (this is distinct from being an accomplice).

[Rifneno]

In Exile wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
Then it's a good thing you don't write laws.  Any system where someone will be punished for reporting a crime they did not knowingly assist in is simply broken.

Also, his job is an advocate for the Circle.  Taking care of maleficar is the templars' job.  "The First Enchanter is seen by apprentices as a father or mother figure, and an ambassador of peace to the Templars by the other mages.

You mean ours, e.g. English common law? Orsino can be charged with accesory to murder. If you knowingly harbour a criminal (and insofar as DA is concerned, a blood mage or apostate is a criminal) then you're criminally liable.

If you know a crime is being commited and fail to report it, you can be charged as an accesory (this is distinct from being an accomplice).

Knowingly is the key word.  You must have knowledge of the crime to be charged as an accessory.  He could be charged for harboring an apostate but not for accessory to murder.  At least not with the evidence we've seen in-game.  Either way, that's why DA's offer immunity in exchange for testimony.  Our legal system also does not punish an entire minority for one serial killer.  It's a totally different thing.  So no, I don't mean ours.

[Beerfish]

Rifneno wrote...

Generally speaking, you should use examples that don't end with the knight-commander calling for his execution.

Eh?  Why is that the question was whether he could leave the gallows, he could 100% proven and if he could leave it to incite the public he could leave it for other reasons.

Then it's a good thing you don't write laws.  Any system where someone will be punished for reporting a crime they did not knowingly assist in is simply broken.

Sheer and utter nonsense, the first enchanters job is to look after the mages and ensure that they behave, at the very best he is skirting his duties and at worst he is outright going against them.  It is 100% his duty to take action in repoting a crime.  Saying that he doesn't have to take action as long as he is not directly invovled is totally absurd and renders any and all "We can look after ourselves" credibility null and void.

How do you figure?  Varric says himself in explaining the situation to Cassandra that the tighter Meredith squeezed, the more they fought, and the more they fought the harder she squeezed.  Read Orsino's codex.  He's the only one who wanted the job of First Enchanter.  Because they all knew it was being asked to do the impossible.

The issue is are there evil things going in amongst the mages, he actively consorts and helps a blood mage, then when push comes to shove he refuses to let the templars search the tower to root out the bad seeds.  Only after he sees he is screwed does he suggest he will let the templars search the tower.

There's no hard evidence Orsino knew what Quentin was doing when he helped him.  He only said that he was impressed with his research.  One of Quentin's own notes that we find shows he's researching tissue preservation, Orsino could have been refering to that.

You are reaching again, Orsino flat out says that he didn't let anyone know about Quentin because he knew it would be ammo, and justifiable ammo against the mages.  He knew he was doing wrong, he knew that Quentin was doing wrong and he helped him just the same.

Proof by lack of evidence is a fallacy.  Guilt is proven, not assumed.  Besides, why would he lie about it?  He says that right before committing suicide by harvester to fight Meredith and a pro-annulment Hawke.  No one knew he had ties to Quentin, he just admitted it of his own free will.  Why admit partial guilt and then lie about the rest?  It makes no sense.

Partial guilt?  When you are in the situation the mages were in only a total fool would do what he did.  I'd say in the end he "proved" of his intentions and his nature by being able to turn into a harvester, not something one picks up by reading a gum wrapper.  His actions were the proof.

[TEWR]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Animating already dead corpses? That's a spirit spell in Origins. Coming up with more efficient ways to do it, making multiple soldiers who feel no pain and are utterly disposable? There are many benign uses for that sort of thing. Hell, I've advocated melding blood magic and spirit healing for amazing medical advances. There's plenty of directions Quentin could have been going before he went crazy after his wife died.

Clearly, this will both work and be amazing. Good argument.

It actually is a good argument. I have also been supportive of Blood Magic being used medicinally if it was given the chance. Blood Magic controls the flow of blood while Spirit healing heals injuries. If you could keep a man whose artery is severed from gushing out all of his blood while using blood magic, you might be able to bring in a spirit healer who could heal up the wounds.

[Sussurus]

Ahhh DP.

Modifié par Sussurus, 08 mai 2011 - 11:47 .

[Sussurus]

Orisino knows the extent of the research, he knows what magic Quentin is involved in.
That he is a malificarum not an apostate, Orsino's duty was clear.

Orsino is a political beast, a mage with at least a deep interest in all forms of magic and their uses in practices.

Orsino, Meredith.. Templars, mages.
To quote Varric  "I'm fed up of templars and mages," both groups have some very fine and even honourable to each others greater good members.

However for many reasons story, lore, game and pesonal.
There had better be a sodding way to walk off and leave both myopic sides to their own ends next game.

Modifié par Sussurus, 08 mai 2011 - 11:48 .

[In Exile]

Rifneno wrote...
Knowingly is the key word.  You must have knowledge of the crime to be charged as an accessory.

Quentin's research is in itself a crime. If you know of a person who performs vivisections on live humans, you're an accessory. That type of research, and the method used to achieve it, are crimes in virtue of how they are done.

Insofar as the law would be concerned for Orsino, the blood magic and demonology Quentin used is in itself criminal.

But I do need to apologize; I misread your post, instead of: 

Any system where someone will be punished for reporting a crime they did
not knowingly assist in is simply broken.

I saw:

Any system where someone will be punished for not reporting a crime they did
not knowingly assist in is simply broken.

That being said, you may stll be charged with accesory depending on the circumstances of your case.

So if Orsino did not know Quentin was mudering people but did know he ran from the circle, Orsino is already a criminally liable.

I feel that your argument is ''If Orsino knew Quentin (an apostate) and sent him forbidden books, but did not know about his murders until much later, he could not be charged for not reporting those murders.'' I am telling you that he could nevertheless be charged.

He could be charged for harboring an apostate but not for accessory to murder.  At least not with the evidence we've seen in-game.  Either way, that's why DA's offer immunity in exchange for testimony.  Our legal system also does not punish an entire minority for one serial killer.  It's a totally different thing.  So no, I don't mean ours.

... What are you talking about re: the bold? Immunity is an offer made to a person you know or believe is a criminal and can ostensibly prove it (or potentially are bluffing you can prove it) for the sake of catching a bigger criminal. The only reason you can even make the offer in the first place is that you can charge the person of a crime.

We already have enough evidence in game to condemn Orsino: he knows that Quentin was an apostate, and sent him

[Rifneno]

Beerfish wrote...

Sheer and utter nonsense, the first enchanters job is to look after the mages and ensure that they behave, at the very best he is skirting his duties and at worst he is outright going against them.  It is 100% his duty to take action in repoting a crime.  Saying that he doesn't have to take action as long as he is not directly invovled is totally absurd and renders any and all "We can look after ourselves" credibility null and void.

Is this straw man crap on purpose or do you just suck at paying attention? I didn't even mention Orsino in the quote you're replying to. I said that the system is broken when it encourages people not to report crimes. And it is. But instead of debating what I actually said, you spout back "Saying that he doesn't have to take action..." WHERE? WHERE DID I SAY THAT?! This is why I hate debating these topics. People like you drag down intelligent debate with your strawmen, your misinformation, and your twisting of words.

The issue is are there evil things going in amongst the mages, he actively consorts and helps a blood mage, then when push comes to shove he refuses to let the templars search the tower to root out the bad seeds.  Only after he sees he is screwed does he suggest he will let the templars search the tower.

His objection to the templars searching the tower would be a valid point if they reacted reasonably to evidence of crimes. Simply writing letters is apparently a major offense to these psychopaths. Karl was tranquilled for writing a letter to an apostate, and Samson was kicked out of the templars and left to the unenviable fate of succumbing to lyrium withdrawal for taking a love letter from a Circle mage to his sweetheart on the outside. I'd fight tooth and nail to stop the fascists from searching the tower too. People face death or worse for the pettiest offenses and if evidence of serious crime was found, even if it was just the act of a lone mage, Meredith would try to use it as evidence to slaughter every mage in Kirkwall.

You are reaching again, Orsino flat out says that he didn't let anyone know about Quentin because he knew it would be ammo, and justifiable ammo against the mages.  He knew he was doing wrong, he knew that Quentin was doing wrong and he helped him just the same.

You're lying again. He never said justifiable ammo, and neither did I. Only an idiot would consider a mad apostate a good case for Annuling the Circle. That said, I never said Orsino is guiltless in not reporting Quentin. I said (well implied) that the Chantry also bears some guilt in the matter because they built an idiotic system that discourages mages from turning in murderous apostates. It's quite possible Orsino would've turned in Quentin if the Chantry's system was reasonable.

Partial guilt?  When you are in the situation the mages were in only a total fool would do what he did.  I'd say in the end he "proved" of his intentions and his nature by being able to turn into a harvester, not something one picks up by reading a gum wrapper.  His actions were the proof.

You're no more an expert on what it takes for an exceptionally gifted mage to learn a specific ritual than you are on quoting. Please stop presenting your opinion as fact.

In Exile wrote...
But I do need to apologize; I misread your post, instead of: 

Any system where someone will be punished for reporting a crime they did
not knowingly assist in is simply broken.

I saw:

Any system where someone will be punished for not reporting a crime they did
not knowingly assist in is simply broken.

That being said, you may stll be charged with accesory depending on the circumstances of your case.

So if Orsino did not know Quentin was mudering people but did know he ran from the circle, Orsino is already a criminally liable.

I feel that your argument is ''If Orsino knew Quentin (an apostate) and sent him forbidden books, but did not know about his murders until much later, he could not be charged for not reporting those murders.'' I am telling you that he could nevertheless be charged.

Ahh, no problem. Yeah that does change the meaning a little hehe... Anyway, I don't really want to get into a debate over the current day legal technicalities. You may be right. My sentiment is simply that it's not as black and white as "he helped Quentin kill people" like many people claim.

Orsino says at a time he has no reason to lie that he had no idea of Quentin's depravity until it was too late. I inferred that to mean he didn't know Quentin was killing people rather than experimenting on already dead bodies. It's possible he only meant that he didn't know Quentin had the crazy Frankenstein wife plan, and if anyone wants to believe that that's fine. While probably illegal, I don't think that alone makes him a monster. Nor do I think it makes him a monster for not reporting Quentin when he knew that not only he but also likely the Circle mages in his care would suffer greatly for it. I'm not saying it was morally right, but I am saying he's not the grand evil that many portray him as.

What really convinced me of his intentions were his actions during the Qunari invasion. He tried to sacrifice himself to save Bethany. Either he's in love with her (and we have no evidence at all that this was the case) or he has a noble heart deep down. Bad people don't jump on a grenade for someone else simply because they're a young person in their care.

[Merela]

Orsimo? Meh. I guess that's the term suiting him in my opinion. Just meh.

He never got enough flesh/screen time for me to feel he was someone else than a moron only worth a facepalm. It didn't help the first glimp you have of him isa letter in which he was totally enthusiastic with the researchs led by the man who had turned Mummy into a zombie after having beheaded her. Not exactly a nice introduction.

Having met the man himself softened my opinion of him only a little. He seemed a reasonable man enough, and willing to protect his people. Good point for him. Unless I started to wonder why in hell he didn't tell anyone about Leandra's murderer...I guess it depends when the letter was written: was it shortly before Quentin had kidnapped Leandra, in which case Meredith had already gone banana and it was understandable for the Circle's safety, though totally criminal and unforgivable (in my opinion, I hope nobody will start yelling at me that I'm lying or anything else...), or was it a long time before Quentin started to kill women, in which case hidding it from Meredith, who was then a strict but mostly sane Knight-Captain, in which case I don't see any reasons for keeping the researchs hidden from her, even if Quentin was such a good friend. He was also an apostate with knowledge of dark magics, and it's already enough for warning the Chantry. In each case, I think he failed the Circle - wasn't he supposed to help tracking down any use of magic blood through his flock? And yet he's the one who learnt enough blood magic for turning into himself a Harvester.

So, meh. Just meeeh.

Modifié par Merela, 09 mai 2011 - 02:37 .

[Kilshrek]

I can only agree that Orsino, and to some extent Meredith, weren't given enough time to develop their character before the end game. All I saw was Meredith, the pushy woman, and then the nutjob. Then I saw Orsino, the oppressed mage, and then Orsino, the nutjob. Something of an oversimplification, but the basic idea is that.