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[Seboist]

kylecouch wrote...

Seboist wrote...

If the Destiny Ascension's performance in ME1's end is anything to go by, dreadnoughts are big for nothings.

 I'm a little miffed about how everyone assumes the Destiny Ascension droped the ball. To be fair...Dreadnaughts are designed for battles ranging for thousands of kilometers, as such most of their weaponry is built with that concept in mind. The final battle of ME1 was what is called "knife-fight" ranges which Dreadnaughts are simply not equiped to deal with. Considering the massive amounts of force arrayed against it and considering the lack of close range weaponry the Destiny Ascension's GUARDIAN systems performed above and beyond what is expected in such a situation since that system exsists to mainly destroy incoming projectiles and to act as anti-fighter countermeasures. Also keep in mind the longer the GUARDIAN system is active the less accurate it becomes and eventually the guns begin to burn out. The Destiny Ascension did not use it's primary weapons because it never had the chance to use those weapons as Nazara and the Geth closed the gap far too quickly for them to be used...and thus had to rely entirely on their GUARDIAN system for survival which in a prolonged battle becomes utterly useless thus making the ship using it virtually defenceless.

I don't think it's entierly fair to say the Destiny Ascension is major suxxzor when it was stuck in pretty much the exact oppisite situation it was designed for. Considering how long the Destiny Ascension lasted in that situation before possible reinforcements tells me just how combat capable that warship is...because if their simple GUARDIAN system kept them alive for such an extended period against such overwhelming numbers then I can hardly imagine the power the Destiny Ascension can bring to bear when in proper conditions to use it's primary weapons and defences. Even if you disregard this entire post the Destiny Ascension is the pillar of morale for the entire Citadal Fleet...they believe as long as they have that warship they are unstoppable, and in war mind-set is half the battle.

The DA was a white elephant who's sole purpose is for displaying the power of the Council. What did it do when push came to shove? It served as a personal transport for the Council.

I didn't hesitate for a second leaving it to die in my first playthrough.

[Nashiktal]

Thargorichiban wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

I'm sure we will see some dreadnoughts in ME3. In fact we were supposed to see them during the final battle in Me1, but due to a miscommunication between the modeling team and the writers, we ended up with cruisers instead.

The error was that the modeling team made far more dreadnoughts than humanity would be allowed because of the treaty of farixen. To correct this error and remain consistent with lore, the model design for dreadnoughts instead became cruisers.

The more ya know.


In any case I believe ME3 will show us how absolutely useless dreadnoughts will be in conventional warfare with reapers. They are just simply outclassed in every way by the reapers, from weaponry, defense, and speed. (Speed is what hurts the dreads the most)

I believe the best ships for fighting the reapers will actually be frigates and fighters. Especially if you can equip them with thanix cannons. (Reapers seem to lack anti-fighter countermeasures, and in fact fighters dealt the final blow to sovvy alongside the normandy) However despite being the best for fighting the reapers, I am fairly sure any conventional warfare is useless.

In the wake of the battle with Sovreign and the invention (reengineering) of Thanix cannons why do you think that dreadnaughts wouldn't be refitted? They are the biggest investment in any of the species' military forces and their respective governments have every reason to protect that.

In the very least I expect that dreadnaughts will be refitted with the largest and most powerful Thanix cannons available. It has already been pointed out in this thread that the increased mass from a larger weapon should be more damaging.

And I can also imagine that the latest defensive technologies would also be integrated.

Even if the dreads were refitted they would still be suboptimal in combat with reapers. Their speed, and reliance on long range combat simply kills them. Reapers are pretty damn fast, and are MORE manueverable than the normandy! In full on fleet to fleet combat, dreads would have to line up their shots, while reapers can move and aim with their tentacles to fire.

Thus that leaves frigates and fighters. While frigates will still be less manueverable, they are more of them, they might have enough speed and manueverablity to be more than sitting targets, and they have the same firepower as a dread would on a smaller more survivable *in theory* package. 

Fighters are even better if you can put Thanix cannons on them. The only problem is protecting the carrier that maintains them.

[TheRevanchist]

Seboist wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Seboist wrote...

If the Destiny Ascension's performance in ME1's end is anything to go by, dreadnoughts are big for nothings.

 I'm a little miffed about how everyone assumes the Destiny Ascension droped the ball. To be fair...Dreadnaughts are designed for battles ranging for thousands of kilometers, as such most of their weaponry is built with that concept in mind. The final battle of ME1 was what is called "knife-fight" ranges which Dreadnaughts are simply not equiped to deal with. Considering the massive amounts of force arrayed against it and considering the lack of close range weaponry the Destiny Ascension's GUARDIAN systems performed above and beyond what is expected in such a situation since that system exsists to mainly destroy incoming projectiles and to act as anti-fighter countermeasures. Also keep in mind the longer the GUARDIAN system is active the less accurate it becomes and eventually the guns begin to burn out. The Destiny Ascension did not use it's primary weapons because it never had the chance to use those weapons as Nazara and the Geth closed the gap far too quickly for them to be used...and thus had to rely entirely on their GUARDIAN system for survival which in a prolonged battle becomes utterly useless thus making the ship using it virtually defenceless.

I don't think it's entierly fair to say the Destiny Ascension is major suxxzor when it was stuck in pretty much the exact oppisite situation it was designed for. Considering how long the Destiny Ascension lasted in that situation before possible reinforcements tells me just how combat capable that warship is...because if their simple GUARDIAN system kept them alive for such an extended period against such overwhelming numbers then I can hardly imagine the power the Destiny Ascension can bring to bear when in proper conditions to use it's primary weapons and defences. Even if you disregard this entire post the Destiny Ascension is the pillar of morale for the entire Citadal Fleet...they believe as long as they have that warship they are unstoppable, and in war mind-set is half the battle.

The DA was a white elephant who's sole purpose is for displaying the power of the Council. What did it do when push came to shove? It served as a personal transport for the Council.

I didn't hesitate for a second leaving it to die in my first playthrough.

Your post sounds like someone who purposely chose to ignore my entire post. The Destiny Ascension is not a f***ing limo for the Council...it is simply the safest place for them to be in a situation like that due to the Destiny Ascensions high survivability. Neaither is it just a "display" for the Council's power...everyone is simply assumeing that because the Desinty Ascension didn't fire off it's main gun wildly in all directions thats it's total suxxzor and is worthless which is simply not the case. If it tried to fire a gun that massive in such close ranges it would have blew up everything in the vicinity...that includes all the Turian warships in orbit and possibly itself, which would defeat the entire purpose and all but ensure the enemy is victorious. Honestly just because you didn't see a giant deathstar like beam blowing up a thousand geth frigates does not mean the Desinty Ascension is simply a figurehead warship. I'll laugh histaricly if the Destiny Ascension pwns major ass if saved in ME3...which will of course cause more b****ing from Renegades about how they were cheated...but thats another issue. 

[Yakko77]

Jigero wrote...

If the current SR2 is a Frigate wouldn't that make the SR1 a Corvette?

I imagine the Turians have a Dreadnaught. I doubt the humans and salarians do though

Oh and the Colletor ship was a Dreadnuaght.

I generally thing of the SR2 as a destroyer more than a frigate though in a way, with their stealth systems they sort of embody submarines.

Also, Mass Effect wiki has a list of the number of Dreadnoughts the Council races have and they are substantial but given the number of Reapers we saw at the end of ME2, even with dreadnaught sized Thanix cannons, they're screwed in a straight up ship-to-ship fleet action.  Military history is full of naval battles where the victor had no business winning on paper but still pulled it off but somehow I  think it's going to take more than the main guns of Council race warships.

[Yakko77]

kylecouch wrote...

*snip*

Honestly just because you didn't see a giant deathstar like beam blowing up a thousand geth frigates does not mean the Desinty Ascension is simply a figurehead warship. I'll laugh histaricly if the Destiny Ascension pwns major ass if saved in ME3...which will of course cause more b****ing from Renegades about how they were cheated...but thats another issue. 

  I look forward to those threads if/when that happens.

That's the whole reason I saved the DA (not to save the Council per se). Knowing this was going to be a trilogy with decisions carrying over to the next game I  figured saving the DA  might come in handy in a later game.

Also, I  wonder if ME3 will take a que from modern naval history and have Alliance carriers play a important role?  

[jamesp81]

Given how the codex describes them, the state of dreadnoughts in Mass Effect seems to be strikingly similar to the state of battleships in WW1.

In the WW1 era, battleships were the symbol of a maritime nation's power.  They were exorbitantly expensive in terms of money, manpower, resources, and time to build.  So expensive, in fact, that when it came to actually fighting a war, battleships were kept off the front line and most of the fighting was done by cruisers and destroyers.  Battleships were so expensive no one was willing to actually put one into combat and risk it's destruction.

Dreadnoughts in Mass Effect seems to be in a similar position.  Powerful, yes, but far too expensive to be risked in actual combat.

This is why I think carriers are the way to go against Reapers.  You could destroy every damned fighter in an entire Alliance fleet and still not have suffered even a fraction of the loss that the destruction of a dreadnought represents.

The age of the battleship came to an end during WW2.  Some people saw the writing on the wall when the British, using cheap assed wooden biplanes, destroyed a modern, front line Italian battleship in an air attack.  Ironically, the largest naval engagement between battleships in US history was the Battle of Surigao Strait in 1944.  By then, battleships were not considered critically important naval assets, as carriers were the main weapon by then.  Since battleships weren't considered so critical, I guess we were willing to turn them loose into real combat.

I suspect the same dynamic might be seen in Mass Effect.

Modifié par jamesp81, 13 mai 2011 - 02:18 .

[jamesp81]

Yakko77 wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

*snip*

Honestly just because you didn't see a giant deathstar like beam blowing up a thousand geth frigates does not mean the Desinty Ascension is simply a figurehead warship. I'll laugh histaricly if the Destiny Ascension pwns major ass if saved in ME3...which will of course cause more b****ing from Renegades about how they were cheated...but thats another issue. 

  I look forward to those threads if/when that happens.

That's the whole reason I saved the DA (not to save the Council per se). Knowing this was going to be a trilogy with decisions carrying over to the next game I  figured saving the DA  might come in handy in a later game.

Also, I  wonder if ME3 will take a que from modern naval history and have Alliance carriers play a important role?  

I wouldn't be surprised.  Carriers seem to be the new up and coming thing, and it's a concept championed by the Alliance fleet.

[Jigero]

Yakko77 wrote...
I generally thing of the SR2 as a destroyer more than a frigate though in a way, with their stealth systems they sort of embody submarines.

Destroyers are defensive craft used to protect other craft. Which the Normandy doesn't do any of that.

SR1 would make more sense as being a Corvette. Corevettes are stealthy, fast moving ,scout craft, with few weapons. The SR1 wasn't really build for ship to ship combat.

SR2 which is almost more armored nad has alot more fire power then the SR1 seems for like a Frigate

[TheRevanchist]

Yakko77 wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

*snip*

Honestly just because you didn't see a giant deathstar like beam blowing up a thousand geth frigates does not mean the Desinty Ascension is simply a figurehead warship. I'll laugh histaricly if the Destiny Ascension pwns major ass if saved in ME3...which will of course cause more b****ing from Renegades about how they were cheated...but thats another issue. 

  I look forward to those threads if/when that happens.

That's the whole reason I saved the DA (not to save the Council per se). Knowing this was going to be a trilogy with decisions carrying over to the next game I  figured saving the DA  might come in handy in a later game.

Also, I  wonder if ME3 will take a que from modern naval history and have Alliance carriers play a important role?  

Like you I primarily saved the Desinty Ascension due to it's wartime potential. I always think of the long term implications of every choice before I make it...and I thought leaving it to die made absolutly no sense at all. First of all the Council is on board and is the manifestation of galactic unity amoung most races, and thus would be able to keep the other races from destroying each other and rallying them togeather should the Reapers ever manage to arrive. Also the future war potential of the Destiny Ascention was far too high to ignore imo. While I did think "we need the ships to fight (at that time) Soverign" I also thought "how many ships could it possibly cost? surely the Destiny Ascention would be more effective agaisnt the Reaper than whatever little cruisers The Allience might lose saving it."

I'm personaly looking forward to this situation if it happens as well...I can't even comprihend any logical argument the Renegade players can use for this. "bulls***! we were cheated! why didn't we get an Allience version of Destiny Ascension! you don't care about Renegade!" I mean...wtf do Renegades expect should this end up being the case? That Bioware just ret-con an Allience equivalent so they get  "equal treatment"? whatever reason they come up with should be amuseing watching them trying to defend that posistion.

[Wulfram]

I don't see why carriers would make dreadnoughts obsolete - they fill different roles. The chief effect of carriers would seem to be to effectively give FTL capabilities to fighters, which would make offensive operations easier and perhaps reduce frigate's screening role in fleet engagements.

All of the galaxy's warships seem pretty much useless against the reapers, though.

[Robhuzz]

Wulfram wrote...

I don't see why carriers would make dreadnoughts obsolete - they fill different roles. The chief effect of carriers would seem to be to effectively give FTL capabilities to fighters, which would make offensive operations easier and perhaps reduce frigate's screening role in fleet engagements.

All of the galaxy's warships seem pretty much useless against the reapers, though.

^This. I expect pretty much every single fleet in the galaxy will be destroyed in the first 15 minutes of the game. Apart from the geth, quarian and possibly rachni fleets of course.

[TheRevanchist]

Well to be fair...I don't think the Reapers will work THAT fast...it took them hundreds of years to wipe out the Protheans and theres about 297 Reapers in that final cutscene.

[Icinix]

Don't forget...in the battle with Soverign..was also a mini Geth armada...

Had it been Sovereign ALONE..I don't imagine the fight would have been that one sided before the Alliance rocked up.

[Robhuzz]

kylecouch wrote...

Well to be fair...I don't think the Reapers will work THAT fast...it took them hundreds of years to wipe out the Protheans and theres about 297 Reapers in that final cutscene.

It certainly looks like there are A LOT more of them but even with 'just' 300 reapers a few of them will be attacking each planet, with the race on the planet sending out their fleets to defend the planet. Obviously those fleets will be wiped out almost immediately.

That adds a question: With all fleets destroyed in the first wave, which race is going to help Shepard? Apart from the geth, quarians and possibly rachni, there will probably be no races who can lend you aid (Maybe the krogan but they don't have a real fleet I think)

Don't forget...in the battle with Soverign..was also a mini Geth armada...

Had it been Sovereign ALONE..I don't imagine the fight would have been that one sided before the Alliance rocked up.

Except for the fact that when husk saren was destroyed, Sovereign's power suddenly went down. Before that moment, sovereign was pretty invincible, so if that hadn't happened, I imagine only the destiny ascension's main gun could've penetrated sovereign's shields.

Modifié par Robhuzz, 13 mai 2011 - 11:45 .

[TheRevanchist]

Robhuzz wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Well to be fair...I don't think the Reapers will work THAT fast...it took them hundreds of years to wipe out the Protheans and theres about 297 Reapers in that final cutscene.

It certainly looks like there are A LOT more of them but even with 'just' 300 reapers a few of them will be attacking each planet, with the race on the planet sending out their fleets to defend the planet. Obviously those fleets will be wiped out almost immediately.

That adds a question: With all fleets destroyed in the first wave, which race is going to help Shepard? Apart from the geth, quarians and possibly rachni, there will probably be no races who can lend you aid (Maybe the krogan but they don't have a real fleet I think)

Um...Bioware has made it pretty clear all the Reapers are bum rushing Earth in order to destroy humanity, so I doubt there wil' be Reapers in every civilized system nanoseconds after their arrivel...esp considering they won't be in control of the relay network like they have been in the past.

And indeed...without the Geth armada the Destiny Ascention would have been able to maneuver into a posistion to actually use it's primary weapons while Nazara was distracted by the Turian cruisers. Which would more than likely result in massive damage...Reaper or no, since no single Reaper is invincable...otherwise Nazara WOULD have just rushed the Citadel itself, but it didn't...so it obviously realized it wouldn't win in such a scenario.

Modifié par kylecouch, 13 mai 2011 - 11:51 .

[Icinix]

Robhuzz wrote...

Don't forget...in the battle with Soverign..was also a mini Geth armada...

Had it been Sovereign ALONE..I don't imagine the fight would have been that one sided before the Alliance rocked up.

Except for the fact that when husk saren was destroyed, Sovereign's power suddenly went down. Before that moment, sovereign was pretty invincible, so if that hadn't happened, I imagine only the destiny ascension's main gun could've penetrated sovereign's shields.

There is no actual way of knowing how much the shields were at....but I still don't believe it was ONLY the Saren death that ended the threat. I still think the forces would have taken Sovereign down..it just would have taken a bit longer..even without the Ascension.

Of course, either way its all speculation.

[jamesp81]

Wulfram wrote...

I don't see why carriers would make dreadnoughts obsolete - they fill different roles. The chief effect of carriers would seem to be to effectively give FTL capabilities to fighters, which would make offensive operations easier and perhaps reduce frigate's screening role in fleet engagements.

All of the galaxy's warships seem pretty much useless against the reapers, though.

Space carriers appear to make space dreadnoughts obsolete for all the same reasons that real carriers make real battleships obsolete.

[jamesp81]

Robhuzz wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Well to be fair...I don't think the Reapers will work THAT fast...it took them hundreds of years to wipe out the Protheans and theres about 297 Reapers in that final cutscene.

It certainly looks like there are A LOT more of them but even with 'just' 300 reapers a few of them will be attacking each planet, with the race on the planet sending out their fleets to defend the planet. Obviously those fleets will be wiped out almost immediately.

That adds a question: With all fleets destroyed in the first wave, which race is going to help Shepard? Apart from the geth, quarians and possibly rachni, there will probably be no races who can lend you aid (Maybe the krogan but they don't have a real fleet I think)

Don't forget...in the battle with Soverign..was also a mini Geth armada...

Had it been Sovereign ALONE..I don't imagine the fight would have been that one sided before the Alliance rocked up.

Except for the fact that when husk saren was destroyed, Sovereign's power suddenly went down. Before that moment, sovereign was pretty invincible, so if that hadn't happened, I imagine only the destiny ascension's main gun could've penetrated sovereign's shields.

We don't know if that's poetic license or an actual mechanic of how a Reaper works.  Put another way: it wouldn't have made cinematic sense for the battle with Sovereign to have continued for another few minutes after you killed Saren.  There is no evidence to support or deny the idea that Sovereign was done in by the death of husk Saren.  Certainly, Admiral Hackett thought he was making progress against Sovereign or he wouldn't have ordered 5th Fleet to continue an all out attack that was obviously costing them dearly.

[jamesp81]

kylecouch wrote...

Robhuzz wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Well to be fair...I don't think the Reapers will work THAT fast...it took them hundreds of years to wipe out the Protheans and theres about 297 Reapers in that final cutscene.

It certainly looks like there are A LOT more of them but even with 'just' 300 reapers a few of them will be attacking each planet, with the race on the planet sending out their fleets to defend the planet. Obviously those fleets will be wiped out almost immediately.

That adds a question: With all fleets destroyed in the first wave, which race is going to help Shepard? Apart from the geth, quarians and possibly rachni, there will probably be no races who can lend you aid (Maybe the krogan but they don't have a real fleet I think)

Um...Bioware has made it pretty clear all the Reapers are bum rushing Earth in order to destroy humanity, so I doubt there wil' be Reapers in every civilized system nanoseconds after their arrivel...esp considering they won't be in control of the relay network like they have been in the past.

And indeed...without the Geth armada the Destiny Ascention would have been able to maneuver into a posistion to actually use it's primary weapons while Nazara was distracted by the Turian cruisers. Which would more than likely result in massive damage...Reaper or no, since no single Reaper is invincable...otherwise Nazara WOULD have just rushed the Citadel itself, but it didn't...so it obviously realized it wouldn't win in such a scenario.

If Sovereign were truly invincible, it wouldn't have bothered assembling a geth fleet o assist it.  Even Vigil told you that as powerful as it is, it's not invincible.

I'm not sure that every Reaper in the galaxy 'bum rushes' Earth, however.  Bioware has also strongly indicated there will be Reapers attacking the Turian homeworld, for example.  Earth might be the first target; but I expect to see Reapers scattered all over the damned galaxy burning and pillaging everyone in pretty short order.

Modifié par jamesp81, 13 mai 2011 - 01:13 .

[Dean_the_Young]

kylecouch wrote...

Like you I primarily saved the Desinty Ascension due to it's wartime potential. I always think of the long term implications of every choice before I make it...and I thought leaving it to die made absolutly no sense at all. First of all the Council is on board and is the manifestation of galactic unity amoung most races, and thus would be able to keep the other races from destroying each other and rallying them togeather should the Reapers ever manage to arrive. Also the future war potential of the Destiny Ascention was far too high to ignore imo. While I did think "we need the ships to fight (at that time) Soverign" I also thought "how many ships could it possibly cost? surely the Destiny Ascention would be more effective agaisnt the Reaper than whatever little cruisers The Allience might lose saving it."

That may be strategically long-sighted, but its distinctly shortsighted for the decisive battle for the Citadel. The Destiny Ascension is less effect against the Reaper, Sovereign, because it cant do anything at all at the point you come by. It adds precisely 0 to the force that will move on and is a position to take down Sovereign or see the galaxy die in failure, and in rescuing it you only diminish your forces. The Destiny Ascension's long-term value in another battle will mean absolutely nothing if Sovereign wins now.

If order for any asset to matter later, the galaxy must not be defeated now. But saving the Destiny Ascension only lessons the chances of winning 'now'.

I'm personaly looking forward to this situation if it happens as well...I can't even comprihend any logical argument the Renegade players can use for this. "bulls***! we were cheated! why didn't we get an Allience version of Destiny Ascension! you don't care about Renegade!" I mean...wtf do Renegades expect should this end up being the case? That Bioware just ret-con an Allience equivalent so they get  "equal treatment"? whatever reason they come up with should be amuseing watching them trying to defend that posistion.

It would be nice if you didn't make ExtremeOne out as representative of all Renegades.

To my knowledge, no one has denied the Destiny Ascension is exceptionally powerful. Nor has anyone notable really pressed forward an argument that the Alliance should have its own Destiny Ascension at this point in the Renegade universe.

[GodWood]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
It would be nice if you didn't make ExtremeOne out as representative of all Renegades

This seems to be a common trend in anti-renegade arguments

[Dean_the_Young]

Thargorichiban wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...
http://masseffect.wi...eaty_of_Farixen

Considering the Systems Alliance is now a full council member, I expect that means humanity is/ought to be building more dreadnoughts

It is. From ME1 to ME2 the Systems Alliance added 2 more completed dreadnaughts to its fleet. Considering how much resources go into each one that's quite an investment.

Do you remember the source? Is that a Paragon or Renegade Council?

There's a much broader Alliance buildup in the Renegade Council as well, though how that's split between Dreadnaughts, Carriers, and other craft is pretty vague.

[JunMadine]

jamesp81 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I don't see why carriers would make dreadnoughts obsolete - they fill different roles. The chief effect of carriers would seem to be to effectively give FTL capabilities to fighters, which would make offensive operations easier and perhaps reduce frigate's screening role in fleet engagements.

All of the galaxy's warships seem pretty much useless against the reapers, though.

Space carriers appear to make space dreadnoughts obsolete for all the same reasons that real carriers make real battleships obsolete.

I felt this would be the case.  Carriers are not limited by the Treaty of Farixen. So the Alliance must have more than any other race as they were the ones to poineer them.  The number of fighters they carry and the number of warheads that the fighters can send at a Reapers shields combined with supporting fire from other ships can make a dent. 

I am sure that a carrier would have guardian defenses and maybe a small (Thanix cannon?) gun to fight ships.

[TheRevanchist]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Like you I primarily saved the Desinty Ascension due to it's wartime potential. I always think of the long term implications of every choice before I make it...and I thought leaving it to die made absolutly no sense at all. First of all the Council is on board and is the manifestation of galactic unity amoung most races, and thus would be able to keep the other races from destroying each other and rallying them togeather should the Reapers ever manage to arrive. Also the future war potential of the Destiny Ascention was far too high to ignore imo. While I did think "we need the ships to fight (at that time) Soverign" I also thought "how many ships could it possibly cost? surely the Destiny Ascention would be more effective agaisnt the Reaper than whatever little cruisers The Allience might lose saving it."

That may be strategically long-sighted, but its distinctly shortsighted for the decisive battle for the Citadel. The Destiny Ascension is less effect against the Reaper, Sovereign, because it cant do anything at all at the point you come by. It adds precisely 0 to the force that will move on and is a position to take down Sovereign or see the galaxy die in failure, and in rescuing it you only diminish your forces. The Destiny Ascension's long-term value in another battle will mean absolutely nothing if Sovereign wins now.

If order for any asset to matter later, the galaxy must not be defeated now. But saving the Destiny Ascension only lessons the chances of winning 'now'.

I'm personaly looking forward to this situation if it happens as well...I can't even comprihend any logical argument the Renegade players can use for this. "bulls***! we were cheated! why didn't we get an Allience version of Destiny Ascension! you don't care about Renegade!" I mean...wtf do Renegades expect should this end up being the case? That Bioware just ret-con an Allience equivalent so they get  "equal treatment"? whatever reason they come up with should be amuseing watching them trying to defend that posistion.

It would be nice if you didn't make ExtremeOne out as representative of all Renegades.

To my knowledge, no one has denied the Destiny Ascension is exceptionally powerful. Nor has anyone notable really pressed forward an argument that the Alliance should have its own Destiny Ascension at this point in the Renegade universe.

Whos that?...I've been gone from the forums for several months now and returned to find a Mirandafied Ashley Williams and have been venting in rage ever since...

[Dean_the_Young]

kylecouch wrote...

Whos that?...I've been gone from the forums for several months now and returned to find a Mirandafied Ashley Williams and have been venting in rage ever since...

About the only person on these forums, a self-proclaimed Renegade (but really only pro-Miranda/Cerberus) poster who inulges in that rhetorical insanity.