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#101
WizenSlinky0

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jamesp81 wrote...

Dreadnoughts are too slow vs Reapers.  You need ships that aren't sitting ducks for a Reaper's main weapons.  That means mostly frigates and lots of fighters.


Incorrect. Lots of small ships are unlikely to pack the amount of punch needed to break through a reapers shields. You have to assume shields gradully regain strength much like personal shielding. This means mosquito biting will not be a good option.

The reaper main weapon moves fast, is accurate, and will rip through smaller ships by the dozens. Which means your "large force" will quickly start disappearing by just a flick of a tentacle.

You do need dreadnoughts to basically act as tanks. They need to be able to hold up against the main weapons long enough or their own weapons to pack the needed punch to knock out their shields, and the combined smaller ships to spam their hull with firepower.

Simply put you're better off with a mix than you are with just a bunch of fighters and carriers.

Dreadnoughts are no where near useless. Their use is just highly specialized to hard targets, command posts (for their advanced armor/shielding), and longevity.

#102
jamesp81

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Bad King wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...
http://masseffect.wi...eaty_of_Farixen


Considering the Systems Alliance is now a full council member, I expect that means humanity is/ought to be building more dreadnoughts


Plus the Alliance has built a load of carriers which are outside the Treaty of Farixen's jurisdiction.


Dreadnoughts take a long time to build. Even if one was built in the 2 1/2 years since ME1, thats a whole lot less than can take on the reapers.

Dreadnoughts take resources, but time-restraints in the Mass Effect universe for building things have always been incredibly short.


To say the least.  Then again, the Alliance had 6 DNs in ME1.  Two years later in ME2, they had 8.  So far, the canon build rate seems to be one per year, at least for the Alliance.  Who knows what they might do in a fully mobilized economy, but it still suggests that DNs don't get the fast easy build treatment a lot of stuff in ME does.

#103
jamesp81

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WizenSlinky0 wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Dreadnoughts are too slow vs Reapers.  You need ships that aren't sitting ducks for a Reaper's main weapons.  That means mostly frigates and lots of fighters.


Incorrect. Lots of small ships are unlikely to pack the amount of punch needed to break through a reapers shields. You have to assume shields gradully regain strength much like personal shielding. This means mosquito biting will not be a good option.

The reaper main weapon moves fast, is accurate, and will rip through smaller ships by the dozens. Which means your "large force" will quickly start disappearing by just a flick of a tentacle.

You do need dreadnoughts to basically act as tanks. They need to be able to hold up against the main weapons long enough or their own weapons to pack the needed punch to knock out their shields, and the combined smaller ships to spam their hull with firepower.

Simply put you're better off with a mix than you are with just a bunch of fighters and carriers.

Dreadnoughts are no where near useless. Their use is just highly specialized to hard targets, command posts (for their advanced armor/shielding), and longevity.


The problem is that dreadnoughts have no way to evade a Reaper's main weapons.  From ME1, we know that a Reaper can literally blow a cruiser in half with a single shot.  This does not bode well for the survivability of any ship that finds itself in weapons range of a Reaper.  The Destiny Ascension never engaged Sovereign in ME1, so we don't have hard film of whether or not a dreadnought can take a hit from a Reaper.  I think it's pretty obvious, however, from how powerful Reapers are portrayed to be that no dreadnought would last long against one.

Thanix cannons can be mounted to fighters, however.  This gives a single fighter something like cruiser level firepower.

The Reaper's main weapon, so far, appears to be able to kill anything it can engage.  However it also appears to be built for engaging other warships.  The weapon has a relatively low rate of fire.  I have no doubt that it could easily hit a maneuvering fighter.  What I doubt is that it's rate of fire would be sufficient to destroy fighters quickly enough to function as an anti-fighter defensive weapon.  If that battlefield is swarming with 2,000 fighters, even a Reaper is going to have a hard damned time destroying all of them.  It will destroy any that it can engage; I do not believe it will be able to engage enough of them to stop them from completing a full squadron strike.

Survivability against a Reaper means being in a large group of small ships and hoping it doesn't target you.  From what we know already, trying to armor and shield a warship so that it can withstand Reaper weapons fire looks to be a lot cause.  Hell, Normandy destroyed that big assed collector ship with two shots from a Thanix cannon, and remember that a Thanix cannon is merely a human copy of the Reaper's main weapon.  If a frigate armed with a copy of a Reaper weapon can face stomp a large ship like that so quickly, I don't see any dreadnought's survivability against a Reaper being measured in any unit of time greater than seconds.

Modifié par jamesp81, 14 mai 2011 - 03:03 .


#104
Team Value

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I actually hope they don't pull the "carriers render dreadnaughts obsolete" card in ME3 (if not just b/c it would be boring). There are advantages a carrier would have over a dreadnaught (which some people have mentioned), but a big part of the reason carriers rendered battleships obsolete in WW2 was how helpless warships were against aircraft. Even with huge amounts of anti-aircraft guns, a warship simply could not reliably defend itself against a determined air attack. That's not the case in Mass Effect (the Codex states that GARDIAN lasers hit attack fighters with perfect accuracy).

#105
008Zulu

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We don't know the range of a Reaper's weapons. A dreadnaught has a range in the tens of thousands of kilometers. They might be able to sit back and snipe the Reapers, and when the Reapers close to range, the dreadnaughts can FTL out.

The Reapers and Thanix rely on the the superheated liquid they fire to add damage to the hit. But over distance the liquid begins to cool, reducing it's effectiveness. Its made up of several elements which, metallurgically, don't mesh well and would be very brittle. Imagine throwing a snowball at the speed of sound at a 3cm steel plate, the damage would be minimal. Whereas a dreadnaught fires a slug that impacts with multi-kiloton force regardless of distance.

They might have power, but we may have range.

#106
jamesp81

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Team Value wrote...

I actually hope they don't pull the "carriers render dreadnaughts obsolete" card in ME3 (if not just b/c it would be boring). There are advantages a carrier would have over a dreadnaught (which some people have mentioned), but a big part of the reason carriers rendered battleships obsolete in WW2 was how helpless warships were against aircraft. Even with huge amounts of anti-aircraft guns, a warship simply could not reliably defend itself against a determined air attack. That's not the case in Mass Effect (the Codex states that GARDIAN lasers hit attack fighters with perfect accuracy).


Perfect accuracy is certainly a good thing.  Then again, GARDIAN lasers aren't unlimited and they are designed to defend against both fighters and missiles.  The equation is going to get very ugly for the defender when some admiral somewhere gets the bright idea to ensure fighter attack runs are timed to coincide with the arrival of anti-ship missile salvos.  Force those defenses to choose between attacking fighters or missiles, or ineffectively attacking both.

#107
jamesp81

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008Zulu wrote...

We don't know the range of a Reaper's weapons. A dreadnaught has a range in the tens of thousands of kilometers. They might be able to sit back and snipe the Reapers, and when the Reapers close to range, the dreadnaughts can FTL out.

The Reapers and Thanix rely on the the superheated liquid they fire to add damage to the hit. But over distance the liquid begins to cool, reducing it's effectiveness. Its made up of several elements which, metallurgically, don't mesh well and would be very brittle. Imagine throwing a snowball at the speed of sound at a 3cm steel plate, the damage would be minimal. Whereas a dreadnaught fires a slug that impacts with multi-kiloton force regardless of distance.

They might have power, but we may have range.


That may be true.  Unfortunately, we won't know until ME3 comes out.

I guess, technically, a mass accelerator cannon has infinte range, as the projectile just keeps going until it hits something.  Practically, effective range will depend heavily on how maneuverable the target is.  Slower targets will be easier to hit than faster, more manueverable ones.

#108
WizenSlinky0

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jamesp81 wrote...

The problem is that dreadnoughts have no way to evade a Reaper's main weapons.  From ME1, we know that a Reaper can literally blow a cruiser in half with a single shot.  This does not bode well for the survivability of any ship that finds itself in weapons range of a Reaper.  The Destiny Ascension never engaged Sovereign in ME1, so we don't have hard film of whether or not a dreadnought can take a hit from a Reaper.  I think it's pretty obvious, however, from how powerful Reapers are portrayed to be that no dreadnought would last long against one.

Thanix cannons can be mounted to fighters, however.  This gives a single fighter something like cruiser level firepower.

The Reaper's main weapon, so far, appears to be able to kill anything it can engage.  However it also appears to be built for engaging other warships.  The weapon has a relatively low rate of fire.  I have no doubt that it could easily hit a maneuvering fighter.  What I doubt is that it's rate of fire would be sufficient to destroy fighters quickly enough to function as an anti-fighter defensive weapon.  If that battlefield is swarming with 2,000 fighters, even a Reaper is going to have a hard damned time destroying all of them.  It will destroy any that it can engage; I do not believe it will be able to engage enough of them to stop them from completing a full squadron strike.

Survivability against a Reaper means being in a large group of small ships and hoping it doesn't target you.  From what we know already, trying to armor and shield a warship so that it can withstand Reaper weapons fire looks to be a lot cause.  Hell, Normandy destroyed that big assed collector ship with two shots from a Thanix cannon, and remember that a Thanix cannon is merely a human copy of the Reaper's main weapon.  If a frigate armed with a copy of a Reaper weapon can face stomp a large ship like that so quickly, I don't see any dreadnought's survivability against a Reaper being measured in any unit of time greater than seconds.


The reason the reaper weapon is so superier is because its massive size is able to maintain a massive core for powering its weapons and shielding. Therefore a dreadnought is likely to have a similar edge over any other ships in terms of ability to sustain damage. The armor is likely to be thicker, the shields are likely to be able to take more damage, and its weapons can still pack a wallop. Reapers are basically just really advanced dreadnought-classed ships. While we can't expect ME's level of technology to go toe to toe with a reaper I think a dreadnought would be able to provide significant cover long enough to concentrate enough fire power on one with smaller ships and fighters supporting.

The thing about the core of the Normandy is that it was so large in order to maintain the stealth systems without additions to its firepower. The admiral wanted more fighters rather than a ship that could sneak around, basically. It still had the firepower equivilent of a normal ship its size.

The Thanix cannon can be mounted on fighters. But it is also a relatively new (and probably expensive) technology that is unlikely to be implemented wide-scale. The technolgy you implement on the Normandy is mostly PROTOTYPE. We don't know if it's just too new, too expensive, or resource limited. It could be all three. They were working with very advanced technology and an element zero core recovered from soverign. We don't know how much of that technology would be repeatable with current technology and resource levels.

The Collector Cruiser was just that, a cruiser. The cannon gave Normandy weaponry equivilent of the class of warship it was fighting which is what gave Joker the edge he needed to pilot it to victory.

It's also fair to assume the power output is limited to the core present in the ship. Which means fighters would still be extremely hampered by their small drive cores and not capable of the same cruiser killer level of fire.

It's also may not be easy to repurpose existing weaponry. Which means for the battle of the reapers, you still likely have the vast majoritly of your ships and fighters, with standard weaponry regardless.

Simply put I don't believe based on what knowledge we have, that small ships and fighters alone have enough firepower to break through reaper defenses on their own. A mix of ships is ideal and the smaller ships are preferably saved for once the shielding is down and they can provide actual hull damage.

Carriers also have similar size to a dreadnought and if a reaper manages to wipe out the carriers, the fighters would very quickly lose their ability to maintain combat long enough to do signicant damage.

Hell in the battle of the citadel a reaper plowered right through a cruiser without even slowing down. It might just do the same to the carriers.

Modifié par WizenSlinky0, 14 mai 2011 - 04:04 .


#109
Tree fox

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 The Destiny Acension is a dreadnaught, yes? A dreadnaught is used to shoot ships from thousands of kilometers away. Now consider this, the Battle of the Citadel was a close quarters combat zone which was unfavorable for the Destiny Acension.

Here's why: Imagine the Battle of the Citadel was a ground engagement with the DA being a sharp-shooter and all the other ships being close to mid range soldiers. This group was caught in a surprise attack and couldn't get to proper positions. In this scenario the sharp-shooter would be useless, since his skills are only effective at long ranges. Same goes for the DA, in that encounter it was, in fact, a useless ship. But if you put the DA at say, 1500km away its usefullness would DRASTICALLY improve, since it was made for distance instead of CQC.

Sorry if that's confusing, I'm not good at posting in forums.

#110
Yakko77

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Bad King wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...
http://masseffect.wi...eaty_of_Farixen


Considering the Systems Alliance is now a full council member, I expect that means humanity is/ought to be building more dreadnoughts


Plus the Alliance has built a load of carriers which are outside the Treaty of Farixen's jurisdiction.


I'm not sure if the Codex has given a number of carriers the Alliance has built.  Assuming it's at least the same or similar to the number of dreadnaughts I'm wondering if ME3 is going to deliver the Reapers a Battle of Midway blow.  Dreadnaughts are taken out in Pearl Hardor style attack but carriers strike back from a distance.... or something more along the line of the Battle off Samar in 1944.  As epic as the Battle of Midway in 1942 was, the Battle off Samar (google it, it's freakin' amazing!) is one of the most lopsided naval victories of all time.

#111
Yakko77

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jamesp81 wrote...

Given how the codex describes them, the state of dreadnoughts in Mass Effect seems to be strikingly similar to the state of battleships in WW1.

In the WW1 era, battleships were the symbol of a maritime nation's power.  They were exorbitantly expensive in terms of money, manpower, resources, and time to build.  So expensive, in fact, that when it came to actually fighting a war, battleships were kept off the front line and most of the fighting was done by cruisers and destroyers.  Battleships were so expensive no one was willing to actually put one into combat and risk it's destruction.

Dreadnoughts in Mass Effect seems to be in a similar position.  Powerful, yes, but far too expensive to be risked in actual combat.

This is why I think carriers are the way to go against Reapers.  You could destroy every damned fighter in an entire Alliance fleet and still not have suffered even a fraction of the loss that the destruction of a dreadnought represents.

The age of the battleship came to an end during WW2.  Some people saw the writing on the wall when the British, using cheap assed wooden biplanes, destroyed a modern, front line Italian battleship in an air attack.  Ironically, the largest naval engagement between battleships in US history was the Battle of Surigao Strait in 1944.  By then, battleships were not considered critically important naval assets, as carriers were the main weapon by then.  Since battleships weren't considered so critical, I guess we were willing to turn them loose into real combat.

I suspect the same dynamic might be seen in Mass Effect.

A fellow miltary historian!  :wizard:

The Battle of Taranto was certainly an inspiration of the Japanse to carry out the Pearl Harbor attack.   I'm also wondering if the Alliance built at least a squadron worth of Normandy SR-1s but instead of putting a Mako and such in the cargo hold they filled it with torpedoes and in effect turn those frigates into the ME  versions of submarines against which there is no defense in ME space naval tactics.  Imagine the SR2 leading a flotilla of SR1s armed with shield/barrier penetrating torpedoes on a raid against a Reaper fleet.

#112
MDT1

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jamesp81 wrote...

MDT1 wrote...

I'm not so sure you can say Dreadnoughts are obsolete because Battleships are obsolete on earth.
Didn't know a BS could FTL at 120km distance fire its main gun once or twice and see the carrier explode 30 seconds later.
Even if less maneuverable a FTL space fleet can outrun any fighter squad aproaching it if there is no reason to stay there. I see carriers in ME more as an addon to a "conventional fleet".


The problem is that carriers have the same FTL drive that dreadnoughts do.  The same tech that lets a dreadnought dart around at FTL gives the carrier the same ability to dart away.  Furthermore, charging up an FTL drive is likely something that would easily show up on passive sensors, so it's not like you wouldn't know it's coming.


It may be easy in the ME univers I don't know, I just think that in "the real world" we have no sensors that collect data faster then light, means if something with ftl approaches it is here before the sensor data or its emmisions. So I would have guessed the DN could fire before/at the moment one relizes hes here and that capital ships need some preparations to ftl.
But maybe in the ME setinngs they have such tech.

#113
Someone With Mass

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jamesp81 wrote...

Space carriers appear to make space dreadnoughts obsolete for all the same reasons that real carriers make real battleships obsolete.


How, exactly?

The carriers are just as large and mobile as dreadnoughts. Oh, and if the carrier is destroyed, then all those fighters it deployed during the fight will be stranded, which can be even more of a loss than losing a dreadnought.

Also, if a carrier and a dreadnought went up against each other, I think the dreadnought would destroy the carrier before it's in range to launch the fighters with ease.

#114
Mr. Sniper Rifle

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Someone With Mass wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Space carriers appear to make space dreadnoughts obsolete for all the same reasons that real carriers make real battleships obsolete.


How, exactly?

The carriers are just as large and mobile as dreadnoughts. Oh, and if the carrier is destroyed, then all those fighters it deployed during the fight will be stranded, which can be even more of a loss than losing a dreadnought.

Also, if a carrier and a dreadnought went up against each other, I think the dreadnought would destroy the carrier before it's in range to launch the fighters with ease.


The carrier and the dreadnaught and carrier fulfill two different roles. The dreadnaught is a front line fighter meant to tae punishment and dish it out in equal measure. The carrier serves as a support vessel with its own signifigant firepower to defend itself, but with the additional maneuverability granted by its wings of fighters/bombers, who can act idenpendantly of the main ship, as well as being safe from the heavier guns the dreadnought, which will have to rely on its GARDIAN lasers for defense against close in threats.

While you are correct in surmising that in a one on one fight the dreadnaught will come out of ahead. however in a larger confrontation, the dreadnaught will not have the luxury of directly engaging the carrier. Essentially, the carrier can release its fighter wings, and stay maneuverable, while the dreadnaught has to move in on an attack vector to get a shot off.

#115
Dean_the_Young

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Why would a carrier need to be in range of a dreadnaught in the first place? Do fighters lack the ability to go significant distances?

#116
jamesp81

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Yakko77 wrote...

Bad King wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...
http://masseffect.wi...eaty_of_Farixen


Considering the Systems Alliance is now a full council member, I expect that means humanity is/ought to be building more dreadnoughts


Plus the Alliance has built a load of carriers which are outside the Treaty of Farixen's jurisdiction.


I'm not sure if the Codex has given a number of carriers the Alliance has built.  Assuming it's at least the same or similar to the number of dreadnaughts I'm wondering if ME3 is going to deliver the Reapers a Battle of Midway blow.  Dreadnaughts are taken out in Pearl Hardor style attack but carriers strike back from a distance.... or something more along the line of the Battle off Samar in 1944.  As epic as the Battle of Midway in 1942 was, the Battle off Samar (google it, it's freakin' amazing!) is one of the most lopsided naval victories of all time.


And then, after that, we move on to the Great Marianas Turkey (Reaper) Shoot Image IPB

Modifié par jamesp81, 14 mai 2011 - 02:42 .


#117
jamesp81

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MDT1 wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

MDT1 wrote...

I'm not so sure you can say Dreadnoughts are obsolete because Battleships are obsolete on earth.
Didn't know a BS could FTL at 120km distance fire its main gun once or twice and see the carrier explode 30 seconds later.
Even if less maneuverable a FTL space fleet can outrun any fighter squad aproaching it if there is no reason to stay there. I see carriers in ME more as an addon to a "conventional fleet".


The problem is that carriers have the same FTL drive that dreadnoughts do.  The same tech that lets a dreadnought dart around at FTL gives the carrier the same ability to dart away.  Furthermore, charging up an FTL drive is likely something that would easily show up on passive sensors, so it's not like you wouldn't know it's coming.


It may be easy in the ME univers I don't know, I just think that in "the real world" we have no sensors that collect data faster then light, means if something with ftl approaches it is here before the sensor data or its emmisions. So I would have guessed the DN could fire before/at the moment one relizes hes here and that capital ships need some preparations to ftl.
But maybe in the ME setinngs they have such tech.


Mass Effect cores, however, manipulate gravity.  Gravity has been proven to propagate at FTL speeds today.  All you need to do is pay attention to your passive gravitic sensors to tell when FTL shenanigans are about to be attempted.

#118
jamesp81

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Someone With Mass wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Space carriers appear to make space dreadnoughts obsolete for all the same reasons that real carriers make real battleships obsolete.


How, exactly?

The carriers are just as large and mobile as dreadnoughts. Oh, and if the carrier is destroyed, then all those fighters it deployed during the fight will be stranded, which can be even more of a loss than losing a dreadnought.

Also, if a carrier and a dreadnought went up against each other, I think the dreadnought would destroy the carrier before it's in range to launch the fighters with ease.


You need to think more outside the box.

First of all, why in the world would a carrier hang around in a combat zone?  The obvious tactic for a carrier is to drop out of FTL near the battle, launch it's squadron, and FTL out until the battle is over.  Space is an enormous place.  FTL jumping halfway across a star system and then practicing some emissions control would make it very hard, if not, impossible for a DN to find you.  This is why the defender has an advantage in pursuits in space combat, per the codex.  A carrier group could easily lead a whole fleet of dreadnoughts on a fruitless wild goose chase.  While dreadnoughts are chasing carriers, they aren't fighting enemy fighters, cruisers, and frigates which are likely attacking something really important, like a planet.

Secondly, consider that Admiral Miklhailovich commented that for the cost of the SR1's drive core, they could've built cores for 12,000 fighters.  Fighters are very, very cheap.  Even if a carrier lost every fighter it carried but they managed to destroy a dreadnought, it would a very favorable exchange rate for the side with the carrier.  In terms of manpower, a Dreadnought has a crew of 10,000 or so.  Even if it cost you 2,000 fighters to destroy one, your personnel casualties would still be lower.

#119
Dean_the_Young

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jamesp81 wrote...

Mass Effect cores, however, manipulate gravity.  Gravity has been proven to propagate at FTL speeds today.  All you need to do is pay attention to your passive gravitic sensors to tell when FTL shenanigans are about to be attempted.

Mass Effect cores don't effect gravity on a macro scale.

The Mass Effect lore is pretty explicit in the codexes: FTL ships can't be detected in an FTL approach. They can be detected entering or exiting FTL speeds, but not during.

#120
jamesp81

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why would a carrier need to be in range of a dreadnaught in the first place? Do fighters lack the ability to go significant distances?


I don't know that it'd matter if fighters were short ranged.

A carrier could just launch its squadron and FTL out of the battle, returning when the battle was over to recover it's squadron.

I think it's true to say that if a carrier and its squadron slugged it out at close range with a dreadnought, the dreadnought would, at a minimum, destroy the carrier.  Now, the carrier's squadron might succeed in destroying the dreadnought regardless, it's hard to say with any certainty.  My point is, there is no reason why a carrier would hang around a raging battle when it has a perfectly good FTL drive.

#121
jamesp81

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Mass Effect cores, however, manipulate gravity.  Gravity has been proven to propagate at FTL speeds today.  All you need to do is pay attention to your passive gravitic sensors to tell when FTL shenanigans are about to be attempted.

Mass Effect cores don't effect gravity on a macro scale.

The Mass Effect lore is pretty explicit in the codexes: FTL ships can't be detected in an FTL approach. They can be detected entering or exiting FTL speeds, but not during.


Nevertheless, real physics tells us that changes in an ME core should be detectable with the right equipment.

I need to correct my previous statement; a gravity field doesn't actually propagate at all at any speed, whether that's light speed or FTL.  A static gravity field extends to infinity, and thus does not need to propagate.  At least that's the best I understand it.

Anyway, it could be that the 'right equipment' in this case doesn't exist or is not sensitive enough.  Even so, a ship is detected going FTL, so there is at least some warning they are coming.

I think it's smarter for a carrier commander to simply drop his squadrons and leave the battle zone until the shooting is over.  JMO.

#122
Moiaussi

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jamesp81 wrote...

That may be true.  Unfortunately, we won't know until ME3 comes out.

I guess, technically, a mass accelerator cannon has infinte range, as the projectile just keeps going until it hits something.  Practically, effective range will depend heavily on how maneuverable the target is.  Slower targets will be easier to hit than faster, more manueverable ones.


They also have limited velocity. It takes them much longer to reach a target than it does for an energy based weapon to do so. The main problem with energy weapons is loss of coherrence. If the beam isn't kept tight, it will lose energy by way of the beam spreading out over distance, with some of the energy missing the target rather than being focused on it. The fact that the Guardian laser systems are point blank weapons suggests that they have this problem.

I like to think that Garrus' two games worth of 'calibrations' coupled with his knowledge of the thanix cannon in ME2 will end up in the development of larger scale, long range energy weapons Image IPB

#123
Team Value

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jamesp81 wrote...

Team Value wrote...

I actually hope they don't pull the "carriers render dreadnaughts obsolete" card in ME3 (if not just b/c it would be boring). There are advantages a carrier would have over a dreadnaught (which some people have mentioned), but a big part of the reason carriers rendered battleships obsolete in WW2 was how helpless warships were against aircraft. Even with huge amounts of anti-aircraft guns, a warship simply could not reliably defend itself against a determined air attack. That's not the case in Mass Effect (the Codex states that GARDIAN lasers hit attack fighters with perfect accuracy).


Perfect accuracy is certainly a good thing.  Then again, GARDIAN lasers aren't unlimited and they are designed to defend against both fighters and missiles.  The equation is going to get very ugly for the defender when some admiral somewhere gets the bright idea to ensure fighter attack runs are timed to coincide with the arrival of anti-ship missile salvos.  Force those defenses to choose between attacking fighters or missiles, or ineffectively attacking both.


No disagreement here. This is acutally how I see (hope) fleet combat works in the Mass Effect universe, where carriers are useful, but not so useful that they render all other ships as being secondary.

#124
Moiaussi

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Given the emphasis (arguably overemphasis) on ground actions in ME it is easy to see how carriers have a major role. Conventional starships are lousy at ground support. Besides the fact that firing significant numbers of rounds through atmosphere does nasty things to the atmosphere, the anti ship weapons are simply not meant for close support missions.

Fighters, on the other hand, are small enough that they can handle ground strike and ground support missions without messing up the planet they are firing on.

They can, of course, also fly anti ship missions, but they lack the main advantage RL fighters have over surface vessels, namely relative velocity. They aren't travelling through air while their targets travel much slower through water.

#125
Someone With Mass

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jamesp81 wrote...

You need to think more outside the box.

First of all, why in the world would a carrier hang around in a combat zone?  The obvious tactic for a carrier is to drop out of FTL near the battle, launch it's squadron, and FTL out until the battle is over.  Space is an enormous place.  FTL jumping halfway across a star system and then practicing some emissions control would make it very hard, if not, impossible for a DN to find you.  This is why the defender has an advantage in pursuits in space combat, per the codex.  A carrier group could easily lead a whole fleet of dreadnoughts on a fruitless wild goose chase.  While dreadnoughts are chasing carriers, they aren't fighting enemy fighters, cruisers, and frigates which are likely attacking something really important, like a planet.


Dreadnoughts would also never chase anything without knowing the target's path, since their role is to shoot ships at extreme distances, far away from the battle. Jumping into the middle of one isn't something they'd do.