199 réponses à ce sujet

[WizenSlinky0]

Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

The carrier and the dreadnaught and carrier fulfill two different roles. The dreadnaught is a front line fighter meant to tae punishment and dish it out in equal measure. The carrier serves as a support vessel with its own signifigant firepower to defend itself, but with the additional maneuverability granted by its wings of fighters/bombers, who can act idenpendantly of the main ship, as well as being safe from the heavier guns the dreadnought, which will have to rely on its GARDIAN lasers for defense against close in threats.

While you are correct in surmising that in a one on one fight the dreadnaught will come out of ahead. however in a larger confrontation, the dreadnaught will not have the luxury of directly engaging the carrier. Essentially, the carrier can release its fighter wings, and stay maneuverable, while the dreadnaught has to move in on an attack vector to get a shot off.

Actually the dreadnaught is NOT a front-line fighter. It fulfills more of a sniper role in space combat. It's weaponry is all based upon long-range attacks and it has very limited up-close weaponry. When expecting resistance upon entering a relay (called knife-fight distance) they actually have to swap out the traditional deadnaught weapons and attach something that will actually be useful.

Frigates and to a small degree,Cruisers, are the front-line ships of the fleets. Cruisers fire at long-range but not at the extreme ranges of the dreadnaught. But frigates weaponry usually is only useful at short range much like fighers.

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/Ships_and_Vehicles#Space_Combat:_Combat_Endurance

I'll also take this oppurtunity to say I was wrong on the main use of fighters. Their job is to take down the shielding so that larger ships can take them down. They apparently aren't equipped with weaponry strong enough to do major damage to ship hulls.

Modifié par WizenSlinky0, 14 mai 2011 - 10:42 .

[wulf3n]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...
I'll also take this oppurtunity to say I was wrong on the main use of fighters. Their job is to take down the shielding so that larger ships can take them down. They apparently aren't equipped with weaponry strong enough to do major damage to ship hulls.

Before the introduction of the Thannix cannon. 

[Someone With Mass]

May I ask why everyone thinks that every ship in existence will automatically have the Thanix cannon all of the sudden? It was developed in secret by the turians.

And I think that the Thanix might give the fighters one good chance at dealing some damage before they have to discharge their cores, since parts of the Thanix are powered by the mass effect core itself.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 14 mai 2011 - 11:14 .

[JunMadine]

Well if the Alliance is studying the Normandy SR2 between games they will have knowledge of the thanix cannon. Perhaps a few more prototype ships will be equipped or other refitted? Not all ships but a few others.

[DrRedrum]

*DROOLS all over Thread*

I love discussion of logistics of space combat!

Forget an MMO, I want a Space RTS in the mass effect setting.

While carriers will play a key role, I feel that each race is gonna have control over certain aspecst of the final battles. In this case, humans will supply carriers, turians can supply Dreadnaughts, and the other races will supply the other types as needed.... that is, if you gain their support in ME3.

[wulf3n]

Someone With Mass wrote...

May I ask why everyone thinks that every ship in existence will automatically have the Thanix cannon all of the sudden? It was developed in secret by the turians.

I've never said every fighter already has a thanix cannon by now. But the technology exists, and I doubt the Turians will keep so tight lipped about it when the getting thier asses handed to them by the reapers, If all the other Council races don't know about it already from their own intelligence agencies.

And besides we're talking about the emergence of carriers as superior to dreadnoughts. Basically that in the Start of ME3 most if not all fighters won't have a thanix cannon, but once they realise the inherent benefits of having cheap disposable fighters that can destroy capital ships, they'll start fitting them as fast as they can.

Someone With Mass wrote...
And I think that the Thanix might give the fighters one good chance at dealing some damage before they have to discharge their cores, since parts of the Thanix are powered by the mass effect core itself.

That's just pure speculation.

[008Zulu]

jamesp81 wrote...
That may be true.  Unfortunately, we won't know until ME3 comes out.

I guess, technically, a mass accelerator cannon has infinte range, as the projectile just keeps going until it hits something.  Practically, effective range will depend heavily on how maneuverable the target is.  Slower targets will be easier to hit than faster, more manueverable ones.

The Citadel battle occured at extreme close ranges, between 3 to 6 kilometers if Soverereign was 2km in length. It probably wouldn't have been as exciting if all we saw were little blips on someone's screen.

[Skilled Seeker]

You know this is an advantage if you let the Council die. The treaty that caps the number of dreadnaughts is broken and an escalating arms race to build dreadnaughts takes place between the turians and humans, dreadnaughts that can be put to use against the Reapers. If you save the Council then the treaty remains intact and the arms race doesn't happen.

[WizenSlinky0]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

You know this is an advantage if you let the Council die. The treaty that caps the number of dreadnaughts is broken and an escalating arms race to build dreadnaughts takes place between the turians and humans, dreadnaughts that can be put to use against the Reapers. If you save the Council then the treaty remains intact and the arms race doesn't happen.

Not enough time has gone by to truly see the effects of this. It'd help, but maginally, I'd think.

[Nashiktal]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

The carrier and the dreadnaught and carrier fulfill two different roles. The dreadnaught is a front line fighter meant to tae punishment and dish it out in equal measure. The carrier serves as a support vessel with its own signifigant firepower to defend itself, but with the additional maneuverability granted by its wings of fighters/bombers, who can act idenpendantly of the main ship, as well as being safe from the heavier guns the dreadnought, which will have to rely on its GARDIAN lasers for defense against close in threats.

While you are correct in surmising that in a one on one fight the dreadnaught will come out of ahead. however in a larger confrontation, the dreadnaught will not have the luxury of directly engaging the carrier. Essentially, the carrier can release its fighter wings, and stay maneuverable, while the dreadnaught has to move in on an attack vector to get a shot off.

Actually the dreadnaught is NOT a front-line fighter. It fulfills more of a sniper role in space combat. It's weaponry is all based upon long-range attacks and it has very limited up-close weaponry. When expecting resistance upon entering a relay (called knife-fight distance) they actually have to swap out the traditional deadnaught weapons and attach something that will actually be useful.

Frigates and to a small degree,Cruisers, are the front-line ships of the fleets. Cruisers fire at long-range but not at the extreme ranges of the dreadnaught. But frigates weaponry usually is only useful at short range much like fighers.

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/Ships_and_Vehicles#Space_Combat:_Combat_Endurance

I'll also take this oppurtunity to say I was wrong on the main use of fighters. Their job is to take down the shielding so that larger ships can take them down. They apparently aren't equipped with weaponry strong enough to do major damage to ship hulls.

Tell that to the two fighters that helped to deal the final blow to sovvy. 

Edit: Er, of course that was after sovvy's barrier was down.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 15 mai 2011 - 01:05 .

[Skilled Seeker]

Well production will be well underway by the time the Reapers attack as opposed to starting to build them while under attack by the Reapers. This is a decent advantage in my eyes.

[Nashiktal]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Well production will be well underway by the time the Reapers attack as opposed to starting to build them while under attack by the Reapers. This is a decent advantage in my eyes.

While it will help to already have ships in productions, 2 1/2 years doesn't leave much time to build the ships. A handful of dreads maybe,

Of course dreads are far inferior to reapers as I said before.

Reapers are fast and tough. They can ram cruisers without even slowing down. They are more manueverable than the normandy, able to make turns that would cut the frigate in half. Reapers can fire at almost any angle thanks to their tentacles. Reapers can take everything a fleet can throw at it without any visible damage.

Things are not going to be easy.

[DrRedrum]

"Things are not going to be easy"

Isn't it great though! It means the choices we choose are gonna have very discernible weight in the battle!
Whats more, we get to watch the glory of that battle in its full pre-rendered glory.

[Skilled Seeker]

Just to correct you, ME3 starts at least 3 years after the battle of the Citadel. Retribution takes place a year after the suicide mission and the Reapers haven't arrived yet.

[jamesp81]

Team Value wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Team Value wrote...

I actually hope they don't pull the "carriers render dreadnaughts obsolete" card in ME3 (if not just b/c it would be boring). There are advantages a carrier would have over a dreadnaught (which some people have mentioned), but a big part of the reason carriers rendered battleships obsolete in WW2 was how helpless warships were against aircraft. Even with huge amounts of anti-aircraft guns, a warship simply could not reliably defend itself against a determined air attack. That's not the case in Mass Effect (the Codex states that GARDIAN lasers hit attack fighters with perfect accuracy).

Perfect accuracy is certainly a good thing.  Then again, GARDIAN lasers aren't unlimited and they are designed to defend against both fighters and missiles.  The equation is going to get very ugly for the defender when some admiral somewhere gets the bright idea to ensure fighter attack runs are timed to coincide with the arrival of anti-ship missile salvos.  Force those defenses to choose between attacking fighters or missiles, or ineffectively attacking both.

No disagreement here. This is acutally how I see (hope) fleet combat works in the Mass Effect universe, where carriers are useful, but not so useful that they render all other ships as being secondary.

I certainly don't see carriers simply obsoleting anything that isn't a carrier.  Carriers still need escorts, and nothing can stomp the hell out of a planet like a dreadnought.

[jamesp81]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

The carrier and the dreadnaught and carrier fulfill two different roles. The dreadnaught is a front line fighter meant to tae punishment and dish it out in equal measure. The carrier serves as a support vessel with its own signifigant firepower to defend itself, but with the additional maneuverability granted by its wings of fighters/bombers, who can act idenpendantly of the main ship, as well as being safe from the heavier guns the dreadnought, which will have to rely on its GARDIAN lasers for defense against close in threats.

While you are correct in surmising that in a one on one fight the dreadnaught will come out of ahead. however in a larger confrontation, the dreadnaught will not have the luxury of directly engaging the carrier. Essentially, the carrier can release its fighter wings, and stay maneuverable, while the dreadnaught has to move in on an attack vector to get a shot off.

Actually the dreadnaught is NOT a front-line fighter. It fulfills more of a sniper role in space combat. It's weaponry is all based upon long-range attacks and it has very limited up-close weaponry. When expecting resistance upon entering a relay (called knife-fight distance) they actually have to swap out the traditional deadnaught weapons and attach something that will actually be useful.

Frigates and to a small degree,Cruisers, are the front-line ships of the fleets. Cruisers fire at long-range but not at the extreme ranges of the dreadnaught. But frigates weaponry usually is only useful at short range much like fighers.

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/Ships_and_Vehicles#Space_Combat:_Combat_Endurance

I'll also take this oppurtunity to say I was wrong on the main use of fighters. Their job is to take down the shielding so that larger ships can take them down. They apparently aren't equipped with weaponry strong enough to do major damage to ship hulls.

I think the standard fighter weapon for attacking ships is disruptor torpedos which are indeed a good anti-shield weapon.

A trans-relay assault is a completely different game than an open space battle.  In fact, it's so different that a navy might be well served to have a handful of capital ships designed just for that sort of thing.  A handful of dreadnoughts that, instead of having the single big honking cannon, but are instead armed with a crapload of smaller, but easier to bring on target weapons, would be ideal for this kind of battle.

A trans-relay assault is a carrier's biggest weakness.  Carriers are well protected, but they still have open hangar bays where a well placed missile or beam weapon could strike deep inside the ship.  Carriers are dead meat in close range slugging matches like this.  This is where a specialized dreadnought and cruisers are at their best.

Edit:

For those of you who are avid sci fi geeks like me, a trans-relay assault would probably look something a lot like a warp point assault as seen in the books In Death Ground and The Shiva Option by David Weber and Steve White.

Modifié par jamesp81, 15 mai 2011 - 02:37 .

[jamesp81]

JunMadine wrote...

Well if the Alliance is studying the Normandy SR2 between games they will have knowledge of the thanix cannon. Perhaps a few more prototype ships will be equipped or other refitted? Not all ships but a few others.

Yeah, I think the weapon will be put into production, the problem is that refits aren't free and take time.  It will be a while before it's the standard weapon.

[Elfseeker]

That's funny....I've read something to the effect that 'Arrival' was two months before the reaper's hit earth.
I don't recall the story of Retribution, but if it was a year after...

[aTrueFool]

jamesp81 wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

The carrier and the dreadnaught and carrier fulfill two different roles. The dreadnaught is a front line fighter meant to tae punishment and dish it out in equal measure. The carrier serves as a support vessel with its own signifigant firepower to defend itself, but with the additional maneuverability granted by its wings of fighters/bombers, who can act idenpendantly of the main ship, as well as being safe from the heavier guns the dreadnought, which will have to rely on its GARDIAN lasers for defense against close in threats.

While you are correct in surmising that in a one on one fight the dreadnaught will come out of ahead. however in a larger confrontation, the dreadnaught will not have the luxury of directly engaging the carrier. Essentially, the carrier can release its fighter wings, and stay maneuverable, while the dreadnaught has to move in on an attack vector to get a shot off.

Actually the dreadnaught is NOT a front-line fighter. It fulfills more of a sniper role in space combat. It's weaponry is all based upon long-range attacks and it has very limited up-close weaponry. When expecting resistance upon entering a relay (called knife-fight distance) they actually have to swap out the traditional deadnaught weapons and attach something that will actually be useful.

Frigates and to a small degree,Cruisers, are the front-line ships of the fleets. Cruisers fire at long-range but not at the extreme ranges of the dreadnaught. But frigates weaponry usually is only useful at short range much like fighers.

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/Ships_and_Vehicles#Space_Combat:_Combat_Endurance

I'll also take this oppurtunity to say I was wrong on the main use of fighters. Their job is to take down the shielding so that larger ships can take them down. They apparently aren't equipped with weaponry strong enough to do major damage to ship hulls.

I think the standard fighter weapon for attacking ships is disruptor torpedos which are indeed a good anti-shield weapon.

A trans-relay assault is a completely different game than an open space battle.  In fact, it's so different that a navy might be well served to have a handful of capital ships designed just for that sort of thing.  A handful of dreadnoughts that, instead of having the single big honking cannon, but are instead armed with a crapload of smaller, but easier to bring on target weapons, would be ideal for this kind of battle.

A trans-relay assault is a carrier's biggest weakness.  Carriers are well protected, but they still have open hangar bays where a well placed missile or beam weapon could strike deep inside the ship.  Carriers are dead meat in close range slugging matches like this.  This is where a specialized dreadnought and cruisers are at their best.

Edit:

For those of you who are avid sci fi geeks like me, a trans-relay assault would probably look something a lot like a warp point assault as seen in the books In Death Ground and The Shiva Option by David Weber and Steve White.

The Kilimanjaro-class dreadnought has three decks of 26 accelerators on each broadside.
78 slugs every 2 seconds.

[008Zulu]

aTrueFool wrote...
The Kilimanjaro-class dreadnought has three decks of 26 accelerators on each broadside.
78 slugs every 2 seconds.

The main gun fires a 20 kilo slug, what size do the broadsides fire?

[aTrueFool]

008Zulu wrote...

aTrueFool wrote...
The Kilimanjaro-class dreadnought has three decks of 26 accelerators on each broadside.
78 slugs every 2 seconds.

The main gun fires a 20 kilo slug, what size do the broadsides fire?

The broadside guns are 40% the width of the ship as opposed to the main gun at 90% the length.
So I guess 1 kilo or less if it fires at the same speed.

Modifié par aTrueFool, 15 mai 2011 - 04:16 .

[008Zulu]

aTrueFool wrote...
The broadside guns are 40% the width of the ship as opposed to the main gun at 90% the length.
So I guess 1 kilo or less if it fires at the same speed.

Cain fires a 5 kilo slug, not sure of the velocity.

[aTrueFool]

008Zulu wrote...


Cain fires a 5 kilo slug, not sure of the velocity.

I think the Cain fires a 25 gram(.025 kilo) slug at 5km/s which is 0.0016% the speed of light.
If my maths is right, a broadside accelerator firing a 25 gram slug at the same velocity as the
main gun would be the same as a million thousand Cains.

That would be something to see.

Edit: My maths was wrong.

Modifié par aTrueFool, 16 mai 2011 - 09:29 .

[Someone With Mass]

wulf3n wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...
And I think that the Thanix might give the fighters one good chance at dealing some damage before they have to discharge their cores, since parts of the Thanix are powered by the mass effect core itself.

That's just pure speculation.

What, that the Thanix is powered by the ships eezo core?

Nope, that's what suspending the alloy inside the cannon.

[Ship.wreck_]

JunMadine wrote...

In all of the mass effect media we have not seen any dreadnaughts with the exception of the destiny ascension and the reapers I guess.  Will we see the various species versions of this ship class?

And on an unrelated note the Normandy sr2 still counts as a frigate right even though it is twice the size as the sr1.

I would hope so. I'm not sure if I would expect to though. As we've seen so far there are almost no space combat scenes. But on the other hand this next game is going to involve a full scale reaper invasion so there would have to be a lot of space combat to take care of that. So it would make sense for there to be alot more of it in the next game. What I've been waiting for all along is Shipboard combat! I mean a hostile boarding of an enemy vessel. It was totally stupid when that happend in ME2 and instead of making it a kick ass playable combat mission your squad gets magiced off the boat conveniently, and the supposedly elite Cerberus crew all of a sudden turn into a bunch of useless push overs. For God's sake, they didn't kill a single Collector!!! Anyway, I hope we get some of that in ME3, and get to see some epic space battles like a bigger version of the end of ME. And I think it would be really cool to have a mission on the surface of a planet where there's a huge battle being fought in orbit, and you can constantly see the battle raging in the sky...

As for the SR2, I would bump it up to Cruiser at least, possibly Destroyer. It's just too damn big to still be called a Frigate. I think the SR2 sucks, its all ginormous and overdone, and looks more like a cruise ship than a war ship. And the explanation is always, Oh it's private sector now, we spend alot more money and expect alot better amenities. Sorry but no way. No one spends more money making a war anything than a governments Department of Defence (You know, whatever the Alliance/Citadel/Turian version of DoD is). Companies need to make a profit. There's no direct profit in war, you spend a million dollars making a cruise missile, launch it at somebody and what's your return? A dozen dead bodies or so, no money. Furthermore only militaries strictly controll their technology and equipage. Hell look at contractors in Iraq! They can't even get humvies, they just bolt a cheap assed old russian machine gun to whatever truck they can get their hands on. They might have the money to buy whatever they want, but the best military hardware just isn't for sale in the first place, nor are the components to make it.

Ok so maybe Cerberus does have some old military connections because they used to be an Aliance version of the CIA. But they uber went rogue, no faster way in the galaxy to make every military official you ever knew burn that bridge in a hurry! I seriously doubt that with their private staus AND rogue status they could ever have the means of making their own version of the most technologically advanced space going war ship ever made, let alone out do it. But even IF they could: it's just dumb that they made it way bigger and have a bunch of luxuries onboard. Even if it is private sector it's still supposed to be a fighting ship, and private sector or not, you just don't waste a bunch of space energy and resources on cushiness when your job is to make war.

Anyway, my opinion of the SR2 aside, it's just too big to be a Frigate.