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[z4t001]

then again, all of this assumes that sovereign is your standard reaper combat platform, when in actuality it is more likely a stealth platform with limited to no combat capabilities when compared to others.

geth infiltrator =/= geth prime

[Someone With Mass]

Then again, if a whole fleet can shoot at Sovereign without even damaging it because of its shields, I doubt a few fighters can change that.

[Dean_the_Young]

A few? Certainly not. But the crux of the Thannix is that it's the firepower of a cruiser (a decent sized ship) that can be put on a much smaller platform (like a fighter).

At some level, the Alliance Fleet was wearing down Sovereign. Otherwise, Sovereign wouldn't have needed to take the gambit of controlling Saren to activate the Citadel Relay directly, and risk the paralysis effect. With a carrier of fighters each with the slugging power (if not endurance) of a cruiser, that's a great deal of damage increase.

[jamesp81]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Then again, if a whole fleet can shoot at Sovereign without even damaging it because of its shields, I doubt a few fighters can change that.

It is not known if killing huskified Saren had any effect at all on Sovereign.  Cinematically, it wouldn't have worked for the player to kill husk Saren and have the space battle continue longer, nor would it have worked for Sovereign to be destroyed before you killed husk Saren.

Admiral Hackett certainly seemed to think 5th Fleet was making progress against Sovereign's shield, or he wouldn't have ordered his entire fleet into a headlong, full scale, close range assault.

[jamesp81]

Another thing to consider is that fighter squadrons currently carry disruptor torpedos, which are intended to pierce / bypass ship's shields.

Now, will these weapons penetrate or bypass a Reaper shield? Don't know yet. If they do, it suggests a good strategy would be successive fighter strikes; the first wave to use Disruptor torpedos to disable shields and defenses, followed by a strike armed with Thanix cannons for the kill. All of this assumes you've got enough fighter squadrons armed with thanix cannon tech. I suspect that may not be the case at the beginning of ME3. It is new tech, after all.

[Someone With Mass]

Then again, I doubt we'll be fighting one Reaper at a time, so concentrating everything on one won't work as effectively.

[Dean_the_Young]

jamesp81 wrote...

Another thing to consider is that fighter squadrons currently carry disruptor torpedos, which are intended to pierce / bypass ship's shields.

Now, will these weapons penetrate or bypass a Reaper shield? Don't know yet. If they do, it suggests a good strategy would be successive fighter strikes; the first wave to use Disruptor torpedos to disable shields and defenses, followed by a strike armed with Thanix cannons for the kill. All of this assumes you've got enough fighter squadrons armed with thanix cannon tech. I suspect that may not be the case at the beginning of ME3. It is new tech, after all.

One of the primary advantages of the Thanix Canon for fighters is its range and power. That's why the Normandy 2 has to get in (and lose a teammate) when going without the Thannix, while the Thannix allows power enough to kill from a distance.


Now, how much the Disrupter Torpedoes is useful is still for grabs... but recall that Cyclonic Barrier Technology (the Tali upgrade) is specifically designed to counter such things like the diruptor torpedos by negating their primary ability (to, well, disrupt mass effect fields).

While current CBT is too complicated to apply on larger ships, I certainly wouldn't put it bast the Reapers to have the technology to do otherwise.

[jamesp81]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Then again, I doubt we'll be fighting one Reaper at a time, so concentrating everything on one won't work as effectively.

Strategically speaking, "reaping" seems to be a fairly slow process, and the Reapers can't be everywhere at once.  While you could never count on ideal stuations of facing them one at a time, one would hope after they spread out to attack everyone, it would be possible to attack isolated Reaper squadrons in overwhelming force.  And bombing them while they're grounded on a planet is probably a good idea, despite the collateral damage you'd incur doing so.

[Someone With Mass]

Considering that only one Reaper managed to take out a good chunk of the Arcturus fleet, I wouldn't feel so confident in attacking several of them without some serious backup.

Also, most ships are not allowed to bomb the surface of a planet, or even shoot at a target if there's a planet behind it. Especially dreadnoughts.

[JunMadine]

One reaper plus a geth fleet took out only eight alliance cruisers and an unknown number of fighters. There is no codex or in universe data about how many ships are in a fleet. So we don't know if it was a "good chunk." Also I think that each tentacle on Sovereign was a thanix cannon. No details on anti-fighter defense. (If any devs are viewing this thread some input or clarification would be nice.)

[jamesp81]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Considering that only one Reaper managed to take out a good chunk of the Arcturus fleet, I wouldn't feel so confident in attacking several of them without some serious backup.

Also, most ships are not allowed to bomb the surface of a planet, or even shoot at a target if there's a planet behind it. Especially dreadnoughts.

I would only attack multiples if they were grounded on a planet.

And this whole 'allowed to shoot planets' thing is in a treaty or something.  When fighting a full scale galactic war for survival, the treaties can go to hell.  If there's grounded reapers and I can shoot them, we're shooting them, and damn the treaties.

[Moiaussi]

JunMadine wrote...

One reaper plus a geth fleet took out only eight alliance cruisers and an unknown number of fighters. There is no codex or in universe data about how many ships are in a fleet. So we don't know if it was a "good chunk." Also I think that each tentacle on Sovereign was a thanix cannon. No details on anti-fighter defense. (If any devs are viewing this thread some input or clarification would be nice.)

I thought we never did get the full casualty list. Can you cite a source?

[jamesp81]

Moiaussi wrote...

JunMadine wrote...

One reaper plus a geth fleet took out only eight alliance cruisers and an unknown number of fighters. There is no codex or in universe data about how many ships are in a fleet. So we don't know if it was a "good chunk." Also I think that each tentacle on Sovereign was a thanix cannon. No details on anti-fighter defense. (If any devs are viewing this thread some input or clarification would be nice.)

I thought we never did get the full casualty list. Can you cite a source?

Shepard mentions that eight cruisers were destroyed to the reporter (if you don't punch her:devil:) in ME2.  Some fighters were shown being destroyed in the ME1 space battle, but we never got a count of how money.  The only thing we know for certain are the 8 alliance cruisers.  The Turians lost 20 cruisers before the Alliance fleet arrived as well.

[Nashiktal]

KillaKow wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

I'll also take this oppurtunity to say I was wrong on the main use of fighters. Their job is to take down the shielding so that larger ships can take them down. They apparently aren't equipped with weaponry strong enough to do major damage to ship hulls.

Tell that to the two fighters that helped to deal the final blow to sovvy. 

Edit: Er, of course that was after sovvy's barrier was down.

I swear those are frigates alongside the Normandy...

The thing is though; fighters drop the shields on the capital ships by launching these,which drop the ship's shields by punching through thevshields and destroying the emitters. So the same weapons could easily be used
to target bridges/engines/heat sinks/poorly shielded thermal exhaust ports/other weak points for massive damage.

In
fact, that's one of the two major ways that aircraft were so deadly
against surface ships during World War 2. While you did have torpedo
bombers targeting the hull, you also had dive bombers that came from
above, diving through the ship's aa screen and hitting vulnerable areas
with precision bomb strikes.

I don't see why this wouldn't work
against a capital ship in the ME universe, or a Reaper for that matter. I
think a huge point that people are missing here is that the majority of
the fighting will (and should to humanity’s advantage) be done at
"knife fight" range around relays and planets, as they are going to be
the targets that the Reapers are attacking. This is going to make
dreadnaughts even less effective and smaller craft like fighters and
frigates even more valuable because they can get in under the Reapers'
defenses.

Those are definately not frigates. Much too small, especially when compared to the normandy. The Normandy Sr2 is considered a *large* heavy frigate. The normandy SR1 is a normal frigate. Those two ships flying with the normandy are simply too small to be anything other than fighters.

[Someone With Mass]

jamesp81 wrote...
And this whole 'allowed to shoot planets' thing is in a treaty or something.  When fighting a full scale galactic war for survival, the treaties can go to hell.  If there's grounded reapers and I can shoot them, we're shooting them, and damn the treaties.

Yeah, to hell with the planets we're supposed to save. 

[Someone With Mass]

Nashiktal wrote...
Those are definately not frigates. Much too small, especially when compared to the normandy. The Normandy Sr2 is considered a *large* heavy frigate. The normandy SR1 is a normal frigate. Those two ships flying with the normandy are simply too small to be anything other than fighters.

You can see one catch on fire and hurl back towards the camera. That's a fighter.

[Nashiktal]

Moiaussi wrote...

JunMadine wrote...

One reaper plus a geth fleet took out only eight alliance cruisers and an unknown number of fighters. There is no codex or in universe data about how many ships are in a fleet. So we don't know if it was a "good chunk." Also I think that each tentacle on Sovereign was a thanix cannon. No details on anti-fighter defense. (If any devs are viewing this thread some input or clarification would be nice.)

I thought we never did get the full casualty list. Can you cite a source?

Shep tells us this if you talk to the ****y reporter in the zakera wards.

[jamesp81]

Someone With Mass wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
And this whole 'allowed to shoot planets' thing is in a treaty or something.  When fighting a full scale galactic war for survival, the treaties can go to hell.  If there's grounded reapers and I can shoot them, we're shooting them, and damn the treaties.

Yeah, to hell with the planets we're supposed to save. 

Contrary to popular belief, the use of a few WMD on a garden world will not destroy it.

Mutliple megaton range nuclear/anti-matter/kinetic energy weapon strikes will have some short term effects.  Chiefly, you'd get a nuclear winter.  The dust kicked up into the atmosphere by such weapons would shift the planet's albedo, causing it to reflect more sunlight than normal.  You'd end up with a colder than normal weather pattern in the short term.  This could be rough on the ecology, but would be nowhere near a planet-level extinction event.

Furthermore, even if a bombardment did cause an extinction level event, terraforming could repair the damage.  Hell, it'd probably be easier to restore a "former" garden world than to terraform a lifeless world, something that's done quite frequently in ME.

Kiloton range bombardments of a planet wouldn't have much effect over the short term, and none at all, really, over the long term.

Now, I don't know, Bioware might write the story and have it say that use of even small numbers of WMD on a garden world would destroy it.  It's their game, so that's fine, but it doesn't reflect reality.  Which is also fine if they just don't want to reflect reality.

If I were the one making the call, however, we'd do it.  A garden world would survive a small to moderate bombardment with an environment capable of continuing to support life.  It's not as if the entire surface is going to be covered with Reapers, either.  It's not like we're going to saturation bombard the surface for a week straight until no rock is left un-nuked.

[Moiaussi]

jamesp81 wrote...
Shepard mentions that eight cruisers were destroyed to the reporter (if you don't punch her:devil:) in ME2.  Some fighters were shown being destroyed in the ME1 space battle, but we never got a count of how money.  The only thing we know for certain are the 8 alliance cruisers.  The Turians lost 20 cruisers before the Alliance fleet arrived as well.

Those were the losses specificly saving the DA. We don't know that they were the only Alliance losses. We also don't know what the Alliance losses were if they don't save the DA, since the reporter doesn't ask if simply being at the battle was a good idea.

[JunMadine]

That brings up a good point. Is there any indication of there being more overall casualties during the battle of the citidel if the destiny ascension is abandoned?

[Moiaussi]

Unfortunately not. Because they were two completely separate situations, there was no reason for the reporter to ask for comparative figures.

The battle itself was accepted as neccessary. If nothing else there are rather a lot of humans on the Citadel, too, not to mention it controls the relays and therefore pretty much all major shipping and trade.

[008Zulu]

There's something vital we all overlooked. The battle of the Citadel, Collector ship and base, the Reapers know what we are capable of. We might have Dreadnoughts armed with Thanix cannons, but it'd be foolish to think that the Reapers wouldn't have adjusted their own technology to compensate.

[Someone With Mass]

jamesp81 wrote...
Contrary to popular belief, the use of a few WMD on a garden world will not destroy it.

See, I'm more worried about the people living on that rock than the rock itself.

[Someone With Mass]

JunMadine wrote...

That brings up a good point. Is there any indication of there being more overall casualties during the battle of the citidel if the destiny ascension is abandoned?

Well, it takes what, fifty men or so to control a frigate?

The Normandy is running with a crew under thirty, and then it's fully manned. Don't know about the cruisers, though. Maybe above a hundred per ship.

And the Destiny Ascension housed about ten thousand crewmen.

[jamesp81]

Someone With Mass wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
Contrary to popular belief, the use of a few WMD on a garden world will not destroy it.

See, I'm more worried about the people living on that rock than the rock itself.

Obviously you save as many as you can.  But the idea that you're going to win this kind of war without making these kind of decisions seems unlikely.

You come upon a planet with a single, maybe two, grounded Reapers in the planet's two largest cities.  90% of the population is either huskified or indoctrinated.  In all honestly, dropping a nuke on the place might be doing them a favor.