88 réponses à ce sujet

[Someone With Mass]

The ammo powers aren't available to every class, because they'd negate that class' other powers by quite a lot.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Someone With Mass wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
I don't like global cooldowns either. It only encourages you to use guns and slows down biotic/tech usuage.

I think that was the point with global cooldown. To prevent the player from spamming their powers.

Obviously you like guns more than biotic/tech abilities. That's your preference and I won't argue about it. It's not my preference, though. There are classes that are biotic/tech heavy. In my opinion these should prosper again. And removing the silly global cool down can help that. DA doesn't have global cooldowns for talents and it works great there. You'll never see people post there that they want global cool downs.

[Someone With Mass]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Obviously you like guns more than biotic/tech abilities. That's your preference and I won't argue about it.

Right. Because you know my playstyle. 

I like normal powers far more than normal guns. It's why I think the Soldier is the most mindnumbingly dull class in the history of Mass Effect.

But even I can see the imbalance powers creates if you can just spam them all in a rapid succession.

[ADLegend21]

I like spamming powers, but it make sense ot havea global cool down, especially for Adepts. they'd burn out their implants if they went through battle just spamming powers every 3 seconds :
*throwpullsingularitywarpreaveliftstasis* *exhaustion* *critical mission failure*

[AngryFrozenWater]

Someone With Mass wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Obviously you like guns more than biotic/tech abilities. That's your preference and I won't argue about it.

Right. Because you know my playstyle. 

I like normal powers far more than normal guns. It's why I think the Soldier is the most mindnumbingly dull class in the history of Mass Effect.

But even I can see the imbalance powers creates if you can just spam them all in a rapid succession.

Ghehe. If you really liked biotic/tech abilities you wouldn't respond like this. Instead you would argue that there is a danger that these abilities could be spammed and that BioWare should consider rebalancing the cooldown times. And I think they should do that. BioWare is perfectly capable of implementing such a feature and keep the immersion. It's like kicking an open door in.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 09 mai 2011 - 03:50 .

[lazuli]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Isn't the Vanguard supposed to get some kind of workaround to this with the Charge ability?

I think I read somewhere that they'll be able to throw maybe one power directly after doing their Charge, as a part of the new skill tree.

Maybe.  I heard that one of the evolutions of Charge might reduce the cooldown for more frequent use, but I'm not sure if that would be the same thing.  In any event, I already know which Charge evolution I'm trying first.

[Ace of Dawn]

While global cooldowns do annoy me to some extent, and it doesn't make sense that I can't use a tech power after a biotic one, I am fine with it. I recently justified it that so much focus was used to generally make the powers stronger as well as recharge quicker, that you couldn't quickly use another. I still prefer it over how ME1 handle powers. They seemed more like a bit of a bonus to use in combat rather than a viable alternative to actually using guns. I'll take 3 seconds over 30 any day. While some abilities could have a second shaved off, I still don't mind it since the pacing is all-in-all faster.

If anything, I think some classes should have some abilities be used almost without any cooldown. But in the end, it's a gameplay and story segregation thing. Being able to use the abilities without any real penalty would make the combat a little wonky.

[Someone With Mass]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Ghehe. If you really liked biotic/tech abilities you wouldn't respond like this. Instead you would argue that there is a danger that these abilities could be spammed and that BioWare should consider rebalancing the cooldown times. And I think they should do that. BioWare is perfectly capable of implementing such a feature and keep the immersion. It's like kicking an open door in.

Again, you don't know anything about my preferences.

And if anyone's trying to pull the very old "If you don't do/like this, you're not a fan" gag on me, all I can say is: **** off.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Someone With Mass wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Ghehe. If you really liked biotic/tech abilities you wouldn't respond like this. Instead you would argue that there is a danger that these abilities could be spammed and that BioWare should consider rebalancing the cooldown times. And I think they should do that. BioWare is perfectly capable of implementing such a feature and keep the immersion. It's like kicking an open door in.

Again, you don't know anything about my preferences.

And if anyone's trying to pull the very old "If you don't do/like this, you're not a fan" gag on me, all I can say is: **** off.

Did I somehow make you angry? Ghehe. So far I didn't see you make a strong case for keeping global cooldowns. But as I said before, it's your preference. And I am not sure why you get aggrevated about it and need to post a demotivational. But it's good to know that you considered me to be a fan, though. Because I am. Admitting that does not carry any weight to both our opinions, though.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 09 mai 2011 - 04:07 .

[Someone With Mass]

Okay, let's look at ME1, and what happened when you spammed all your powers at once on one dude. He's now completely immobilized and cannot attack you, thus there's no challenge in killing him. That's what BioWare wanted to change.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Okay, let's look at ME1, and what happened when you spammed all your powers at once on one dude. He's now completely immobilized and cannot attack you, thus there's no challenge in killing him. That's what BioWare wanted to change.

Did we went to school together? Don't call me dude. Especially after your previous eloquent post.

Usually individual cooldown times are connected to some kind of pool, like stamina. For ME3 you could implement that as well. Maybe even a biotic and tech pool. If BW thinks that's too hard for the average player then I would at least like to see that biotic and cooldown times are split. One has nothing to do with the other.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 09 mai 2011 - 04:26 .

[InvaderErl]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Okay, let's look at ME1, and what happened when you spammed all your powers at once on one dude. He's now completely immobilized and cannot attack you, thus there's no challenge in killing him. That's what BioWare wanted to change.

Agreed.

I always use tech and biotic characters and I think the cooldown changed the tempo and flow of combat for the better.

Biotics in ME1 were insanely more powerful than Techs/gun classes essentially being able to throw around entire rooms without breaking a sweat and the ability to spam powers is a huge part of that. Its no coincidence that so often its said by players that they merely brought techs with them to unlock crates rather than for their combat effectiveness. Its nice to look at I suppose but as a game - meh.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 09 mai 2011 - 04:26 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

InvaderErl wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Okay, let's look at ME1, and what happened when you spammed all your powers at once on one dude. He's now completely immobilized and cannot attack you, thus there's no challenge in killing him. That's what BioWare wanted to change.

Agreed.

I always use tech and biotic characters and I think the cooldown changed the tempo and flow of combat for the better.

Biotics in ME1 were insanely more powerful than Techs/gun classes essentially being able to throw around entire rooms without breaking a sweat and the ability to spam powers is a huge part of that. Its no coincidence that so often its said by players that they merely brought techs with them to unlock crates rather than for their combat effectiveness. Its nice to look at I suppose but as a game - meh.

I am glad that BioWare said that they'll improve the biotic powers again. It was needed. The focus on guns made biotic and tech less useful.

Another thing to prevent spamming by a single character is to use combos which cannot be performed by the same character, DA2 implemented that. Or there could be a timer with a tiny countdown after invoking which prevents peak spamming. All of that has been implemented successfully by various games, so I don't see why this all of a sudden needs to be a problem. I think BW can come up with solutions.

A compromise I see is to have a separate biotic and tech cooldown timer, instead of individual timers. Biotic and tech abilities don't have much to do with each other. So, they shouldn't get into each other's way. Still, I prefer individual timers for reasons mentioned earlier.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 09 mai 2011 - 04:41 .

[InvaderErl]

I think techs blended perfectly with ME2's combat mechanics and in many cases were superior than just pew-pewing your enemies. Powers like Overload, Incinerate, Cryo Blast, Drone, Cloak, Tech Armor were all diverse and extremely effective especially on higher difficulties in ways that the ME1 techs just never were.


I think giving separate cool downs for Biotic/Tech would unbalance the Sentinel essentially doubling their power output and as of right now, I feel that Sentinels and Vanguards came over just fine being a mix of Biotic/Tech in the former (giving them a good spread of abilties) and in the latter(Biotic/Gun.

The real issue was that in the case of Adepts, they really did not have powers that ignored or stripped defenses. Not giving them access to Warp was a misstep, though the inclusion of Stasis in Shadowbroker was a step in the right direction. Shockwave and Singularity could be given greater protection damaging capabilities and I think should have either ignored either armor or shields. Having all 3 defend against them was unnecessary. Maybe give pull/throw different effects on different types of defenses.

These issues do not I feel necessitate the removal of the cooldown system but rather a retooling of the biotic powers that are in the game.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 09 mai 2011 - 05:07 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Thinking more about ammo...

I think ammo became a power, because BW removed too many ME1 abilities. It became a filler ability, with additional advantage that there was a uniform way to activate them. But it is not hard to make them weapon mods again and keep that just as user-friendly. BW said that there would be weapon mods anyway, so there is no reason why ammo could go back. Also, group ammo doesn't make sense to me. Especially because you need to learn to use ammo in ME2. So you need to learn to use ammo, but your companions do not? Is there magic at work here? I thought magic didn't fit in the ME2 universe. But again, that's only me.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 09 mai 2011 - 04:58 .

[Razgriz9327]

Another benefit of the global cooldown system was less stress on the xbox... i know that have 4 biotic abilities going at the same time could nearly freeze my box... singularity could nearly do it by itself when you got a large enough number of enemies. with less abilities in play at once, it allows the system to run at a higher framerate

[InvaderErl]

I think in a case of something like ammo that you're overthinking gameplay mechanics. Its the same as Garrus being hit by a Geth Colossus and not being blown apart/vaporized as a result.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Razgriz9327 wrote...

Another benefit of the global cooldown system was less stress on the xbox... i know that have 4 biotic abilities going at the same time could nearly freeze my box... singularity could nearly do it by itself when you got a large enough number of enemies. with less abilities in play at once, it allows the system to run at a higher framerate

Wow. Was it that bad? I didn't hear other games having problems with that. I visit the DA:O and DA2 forums often, but I think I never saw the complaint there. What you describe looks like an optimization problem and not something inherently connected to individual timers.

[AngryFrozenWater]

InvaderErl wrote...

I think in a case of something like ammo that you're overthinking gameplay mechanics. Its the same as Garrus being hit by a Geth Colossus and not being blown apart/vaporized as a result.

I feel addressed, eventhough you didn't quote me.

Overthinking is not it. Game mechanics are not intended to mimic reality perfectly, especially since a game like ME is a SF/fantasy hybrid, but that doesn't mean BW shouldn't go after a believable world. If one keeps on simplifying stuff because it is believed that you cannot approach reality anyway, then you'll end with a game like rock-paper-scissors.

[InvaderErl]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Wow. Was it that bad? I didn't hear other games having problems with that. I visit the DA:O and DA2 forums often, but I think I never saw the complaint there. What you describe looks like an optimization problem and not something inherently connected to individual timers.

Singularity if there was enough enemies/objects on screen would drop my framerate pretty low, I never had my Xbox freeze but Xbox's at the time were such tempermental things that you never knew how YOURS was going to react.

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I feel addressed, eventhough you didn't quote me.

Overthinking
is not it. Game mechanics are not intended to mimic reality perfectly,
especially since a game like ME is a SF/fantasy hybrid, but that doesn't
mean BW shouldn't go after a believable world. If one keeps on
simplifying stuff because it is believed that you cannot approach
reality anyway, then you'll end with a game like rock-paper-scissors.

Sure but I hold things like the mechanics of ammo powers to exist within the same nebulous realm as Shepard's accuracy with weapons being poor at the start of ME1 despite being a highly trained commando or suddenly getting access to Specter training even though we never see this happen on screen. When you think about them they obviously are divorced from the "reality" of Mass Effect, existing only because we the player are playing a game.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 09 mai 2011 - 05:26 .

[Chromie]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Okay, let's look at ME1, and what happened when you spammed all your powers at once on one dude. He's now completely immobilized and cannot attack you, thus there's no challenge in killing him. That's what BioWare wanted to change.

Did we went to school together? Don't call me dude. Especially after your previous eloquent post.

Usually individual cooldown times are connected to some kind of pool, like stamina. For ME3 you could implement that as well. Maybe even a biotic and tech pool. If BW thinks that's too hard for the average player then I would at least like to see that biotic and cooldown times are split. One has nothing to do with the other.

Didn't call you dude.
Removing cooldowns would make the whole point of gathering weapons pointless because Warp Explosion is much better. It would also be really easy. ME1 would get really boring when Shepard became such a destructive force on the battlefield.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Ringo12 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Okay, let's look at ME1, and what happened when you spammed all your powers at once on one dude. He's now completely immobilized and cannot attack you, thus there's no challenge in killing him. That's what BioWare wanted to change.

Did we went to school together? Don't call me dude. Especially after your previous eloquent post.

Usually individual cooldown times are connected to some kind of pool, like stamina. For ME3 you could implement that as well. Maybe even a biotic and tech pool. If BW thinks that's too hard for the average player then I would at least like to see that biotic and cooldown times are split. One has nothing to do with the other.

Didn't call you dude.
Removing cooldowns would make the whole point of gathering weapons pointless because Warp Explosion is much better. It would also be really easy. ME1 would get really boring when Shepard became such a destructive force on the battlefield.

That's were balancing steps in.

[AngryFrozenWater]

InvaderErl wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I feel addressed, eventhough you didn't quote me.

Overthinking is not it. Game mechanics are not intended to mimic reality perfectly,  especially since a game like ME is a SF/fantasy hybrid, but that doesn't mean BW shouldn't go after a believable world. If one keeps on simplifying stuff because it is believed that you cannot approach reality anyway, then you'll end with a game like rock-paper-scissors.

Sure but I hold things like the mechanics of ammo powers to exist within the same nebulous realm as Shepard's accuracy with weapons being poor at the start of ME1 despite being a highly trained commando or suddenly getting access to Specter training even though we never see this happen on screen. When you think about them they obviously are divorced from the "reality" of Mass Effect, existing only because we the player are playing a game.

But ammo deserves some extra consideration... In the case of ammo it is not entirely strange to suggest that they'll become a mod again, because BW stated that ME3 will offer weapon customization. ME1 did have mods, but when they were taken out ammo became an ability. Now that there are mods again in ME3 it is very hard for me to grasp that ammo still has to be an ability, eventhough other weapon related modifications are not. You see the point I am trying to make? It doesn't make sense.

[wizardryforever]

I kinda think the whole point of the global cooldown was to encourage classes to actually use their guns.  I seem to recall that one of the devs said that all classes were meant to shoot things, that none of them were meant to rely on powers alone.  The upside of the global cooldown is that it is much much faster than the any individual cooldown in ME1, and because it applies to all powers (though which power you used determines the length of the cooldown), you could use the same power over and over.  The downside is that you couldn't use all of your powers simultaneously.  I kinda think the tradeoff is worth it.  The whole "alpha strike" mentality is kinda puzzling.  I never used more than two biotic abilities at once in ME1, there just wasn't any need.  Feeling powerful isn't really a good trade when it comes at the cost of balance.

[InvaderErl]

Well I haven't seen anything aside from the most vague of details regarding the weapon mod mechanic yet to say if it will or will not make sense with the customization system that their building. When I see it and what they are doing with it I will be able to comment.

I will say that as of ME2 and the way that the ammo operates within the game it is fine. It is a gameplay mechanic, just as ME1 had gameplay mechanics and doesn't play any actual role greater than that.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 09 mai 2011 - 06:34 .