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[Zepheera]

I've read many threads complaining about the fact that Hawke and his/her companions can use magic within Kirkwall with no repercussions on behalf of the templars, particularly within the Gallows at the beginning of the game when they are not 'protected' by money or title. 

A question has popped into my mind about what the ABILITY of various templars is to identify a mage, and what type of range that ability extends to.  Please note, I am taking these scenarios from memory, so I could be forgetting bits and pieces.  Feel free to correct me on any glaring mistakes.


Observation A)  From what I have read in the books/codex and in discussion with Wynne (and I could be mistaken, so forgive me if that's the case), most young mages are identified by their family or neighbors when they are caught casting a spell and then are reported to the chantry/templars, who then proceed to collect them and bundle them off to the circle.


Observation   I don't remember any situation in either game or books that indicate that a templar can identify a mage simply by being near them unless they have actively been casting, in which case, that could easily be explained as feeling or seeing the actual spells being cast, not feeling the mage him/herself. 

        1)  In DA:O, Alistair actually has to ASK if the Warden is a mage, and while he's not a full templar, I believe he indicates at one point that he has all of the abilities of one.  The templars in Lothering and Denerim don't seem to notice that the Warden, Wynne, or Morrigan are mages, and since they don't really have any way of knowing that the Warden IS a warden (except for the one in the chantry when you tell him so) then if they could feel that you're a mage, they would most likely at LEAST question the appearance of a mage.

        2)  Meredith knows if Hawke or one of his/her companions is a mage, but when you initially meet her, you've been actively fighting, and chances are she saw the spellcasting in progress.  In the this case, there's a bigger problem going on than a rogue mage, which Meredith points out.  Once the fight is over, you've become the Champion, and she doesn't have a whole lot of choice since taking you in would probably start a riot. 

        3)  The same with Cullen, as when you meet HIM, a fight breaks out almost immediately.  In THIS case, you've just save Cullen's bacon in addition to outnumbering him AND offering to help him with an even larger issue, which probably at least give him pause in turning you in.  In addition, he may be reluctant to bring you into Meredith's grasp.  From what I gather, the Kirkwall Circle is not a nice place, even before Meredith goes off the deep end.

        4)  Despite the initial fight being in the Gallows, there are no templars in the immeditate vicinity, at best guess, they're all behind the doors to the Hall, and the stone and/or distance may cause them not to notice the spellcasting in the courtyard.  Since you just helped the guards, and if they have heard any stories about how mages are treated, they may be disinclined to turn you in themselves.

        5)  The attempt to get in on the deep roads expedition in order to get out of Kirkwall for a while is partially prompted by Templars sniffing around, likely due to rumors reaching them of the spellcasting.  If they had solid proof, they wouldn't be sniffing, they'd already have taken the culprit in.  Bethany can be caught while Hawke is out of the city, most likely because she slipped up and actually got caught by the wrong person.

        6)  Ser Wesley knows that Hawke and/or their sister are mages, however, again spellcasting has been done in the immediate vicinity, and most LIKELY where he could see it.  He is overzealous about confronting the Hawkes about it, but is quickly talked into letting sleeping dogs lie until the immediate issue is resolved.  Pragmatism seems like it could be a recurring theme.  We also don't know where Wesley was stationed, and he may not have the same view of mages and the circle as the templars serving in the Gallows.

So, back to my initial question(s):

What abilities do Templars have to actually identify a mage?  Do they have a power they can use to 'feel' a mage by just being near them; and if so, is it passive, or one they have to conciously use when they are actively searching for one?  Or can they only feel active spellcasting?  What's the range of these abilities if there is one?

Obviously, most of these questions are only open to speculation, unless Word of God chooses to add their insight, but speculation is fun, and this is a different avenue of thought that can be explored and discussed.  And does anyone else have anything to add?

Modifié par Zepheera, 09 mai 2011 - 03:48 .

[Big I]

My understanding was that templars can't "sense" mages, just use their abilities to give them a beatdown.

What I've always wondered is how do templar abilities work? Alistair didn't need lyrium to use them, so does it qualify as magic that non-mages can learn?

[Zepheera]

That's what really prompted my post.

My understanding of the game was exactly what you said, but a lot of folks seem to assume that templars sense mages. Robes are not difficult to come by in Ferelden, many shopkeepers sell them, and, while it's not a weapon skill that the player can learn, simply holding a staff probably isn't the best indication that the bearer is a mage. They could use it for balance, there may be people in the world who use a staff as a melee weapon. In the first game, a staff isn't even required in order to cast spells (in addition to anyone being able to wear robes), so that's not the best way to identify a mage. There's at least three armors early in the second game that are NOT robes that a mage can wear, which means that robes probably aren't the best indicator of SPELLCASTER out there as well.

The templar's innate sensing of mages and their powers, whether actively casting or just standing near them, seems to be prevelent in fanfiction, which may be why a lot of people take it for a canon ability. 

Modifié par Zepheera, 09 mai 2011 - 04:10 .

[Realmzmaster]

Lyrium by Chantry doctrine is used to enhance the abilities of templars. The other use of lyrium is to keep templars in line by addicting them to the stuff. I believe the latter is more true than the former. Hawke is able to learn templar abilities if he is a warrior and Alistair had full use of templar abilities if you pick those abilities.
So templar abilities can be learned. I often wonder if templar recruits have an innate magical ability that does not manifest it self the way a mage's ability does.

[LobselVith8]

Regarding Number 3, Cullen says that mages can't be treated like people and are weapons, so I doubt he would look the other way for an apostate Hawke when he arrests Hawke's sister Bethany and takes her to the Gallows at the end of Act II (and even threatens Hawke that there will be repercussions if he harbors apostates again). He also seems to have no issue with the "Tranquil Solution" and says there have been arguments for its application (and Hawke can point out that it sounds like he supports this measure). I think the problem is that there is more of an apostate POV as a warrior or rogue Hawke because of Bethany than there is if Hawke is an apostate.

[Zepheera]

You do have a point Lobsel.

Hawke is obviously protected by plot armor. I suppose, if the templar's abilities is simply to combat magic, and not necessarily to identify the mages themselves; it could be argued that where Cullen is concerned, he may not have noticed Hawke's spellcasting since his attention could arguably have been on the demons. I would imagine that the demon's attack would be at least mildly traumatizing to him after what he went through in the Tower.

[Icy Magebane]

There's a Templar in the Lothering Chantry in DA:O who says that Morrigan seemed "odd" and that he would be watching her. So that leads me to believe they may have some kind of ... extrasensory ability to detect mages. Also, if anybody remembers the part in the Redcliffe Chantry where the Revered Mother says something to the Warden about being glad he's helping "even if he's a mage" (or something)... I usually rp around the obvious responses, so I don't remember what she says in response to the line, "You know that I'm a mage?" Still, it could be important depending on what her answer was...

Also, there's no way in hell that I'm going to believe Cullen was too focused on the demons to realize that somebody was launching lightning bolts and raining fire down from the sky about 5 feet away. That's kind of grasping at straws...

[Zepheera]

I'm not saying he didn't notice it, I'm saying it could be argued that in the confusion, he mistook the spellcasting to be from demons in the area, not necessarily to the other humans.

Again, it could also be that he had an extremely disturbing (and likely more urgent, from his point of view) problem on his hands, and the mage in question has just offered to HELP him with said problem, thus causing him to (maybe temporarily) overlook the apostate issue.  It is possible that until the resolution of the quest, he had every intention of taking you into custody once you finished the investigation.  Once you report back to him, he may have gained some form of respect for your abilities and his gratitude for your help may have stayed his hand.

Modifié par Zepheera, 09 mai 2011 - 04:45 .

[HSHAW]

Icy Magebane wrote...

There's a Templar in the Lothering Chantry in DA:O who says that Morrigan seemed "odd" and that he would be watching her. So that leads me to believe they may have some kind of ... extrasensory ability to detect mages. Also, if anybody remembers the part in the Redcliffe Chantry where the Revered Mother says something to the Warden about being glad he's helping "even if he's a mage" (or something)... I usually rp around the obvious responses, so I don't remember what she says in response to the line, "You know that I'm a mage?" Still, it could be important depending on what her answer was...

Also, there's no way in hell that I'm going to believe Cullen was too focused on the demons to realize that somebody was launching lightning bolts and raining fire down from the sky about 5 feet away. That's kind of grasping at straws...

Or it could have just been that her outfit was extremely odd.

[TobiTobsen]

HSHAW wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

There's a Templar in the Lothering Chantry in DA:O who says that Morrigan seemed "odd" and that he would be watching her. So that leads me to believe they may have some kind of ... extrasensory ability to detect mages. Also, if anybody remembers the part in the Redcliffe Chantry where the Revered Mother says something to the Warden about being glad he's helping "even if he's a mage" (or something)... I usually rp around the obvious responses, so I don't remember what she says in response to the line, "You know that I'm a mage?" Still, it could be important depending on what her answer was...

Also, there's no way in hell that I'm going to believe Cullen was too focused on the demons to realize that somebody was launching lightning bolts and raining fire down from the sky about 5 feet away. That's kind of grasping at straws...

Or it could have just been that her outfit was extremely odd.

Didn't Ser Bryant also told you that he knew that you were a mage, but he had more serious problems? I can't quite remember.

Btw: Was I the only one who found it hilarious that Bryant always talked about defending the city at all costs and then we learn in DA2 that the templars  ran away, while families like the Hawkes were still in Lothering?

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 09 mai 2011 - 08:32 .

[Big I]

TobiTobsen wrote...
Didn't Ser Bryant also told you that he knew that you were a mage, but he had more serious problems? I can't quite remember.

Btw: Was I the only one who found it hilarious that Bryant always talked about defending the city at all costs and then we learn in DA2 that the templars  ran away, while families like the Hawkes were still in Lothering?

Ser Bryant only says that if you tell him you're a mage.

The only templar I can remember "sensing" anything is Ser Otto in the alienage, and I just assumed it was because he was the only one paying attention to the area.

[EmperorSahlertz]

TobiTobsen wrote...

HSHAW wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

There's a Templar in the Lothering Chantry in DA:O who says that Morrigan seemed "odd" and that he would be watching her. So that leads me to believe they may have some kind of ... extrasensory ability to detect mages. Also, if anybody remembers the part in the Redcliffe Chantry where the Revered Mother says something to the Warden about being glad he's helping "even if he's a mage" (or something)... I usually rp around the obvious responses, so I don't remember what she says in response to the line, "You know that I'm a mage?" Still, it could be important depending on what her answer was...

Also, there's no way in hell that I'm going to believe Cullen was too focused on the demons to realize that somebody was launching lightning bolts and raining fire down from the sky about 5 feet away. That's kind of grasping at straws...

Or it could have just been that her outfit was extremely odd.

Didn't Ser Bryant also told you that he knew that you were a mage, but he had more serious problems? I can't quite remember.

Btw: Was I the only one who found it hilarious that Bryant always talked about defending the city at all costs and then we learn in DA2 that the templars  ran away, while families like the Hawkes were still in Lothering?

He says he knows you are a Grey Warden, but that he got bigger fish to fry, and doesn't believe Loghain's accusations anyway.

[TobiTobsen]

Ah okay. My bad.

[Icy Magebane]

Zepheera wrote...

I'm not saying he didn't notice it, I'm saying it could be argued that in the confusion, he mistook the spellcasting to be from demons in the area, not necessarily to the other humans.

Again, it could also be that he had an extremely disturbing (and likely more urgent, from his point of view) problem on his hands, and the mage in question has just offered to HELP him with said problem, thus causing him to (maybe temporarily) overlook the apostate issue.  It is possible that until the resolution of the quest, he had every intention of taking you into custody once you finished the investigation.  Once you report back to him, he may have gained some form of respect for your abilities and his gratitude for your help may have stayed his hand.

Well I wouldn't go that far... I mean, if he was going to arrest Hawke, why not just do it and not let him go off to investigate on behalf of the Templars?  It's not like he was doing anything at the time... I get that you want to justify this, but I just don't see it as possible that Cullen has no clue what's going on.  Even after this quest, he makes his remarks about how mages aren't like "you and me."  It's just developer oversight, or refusal to create a game that correctly reflects the lore.

Cullen says that "mages can't be our friends," which makes it unlikely that he'd allow a known apostate to do anything except follow him to the Gallows in chains.  Correct me if I'm wrong... he might only say that particular line to Warriors or Rogues.

Let me just add that I'm starting to doubt Templars can sense mages... but if they are too incompetent to follow up on leads or notice that random mages constantly use their powers to hunt gangs within the city, they should all be fired.  Etc...

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 09 mai 2011 - 09:54 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

It would suck to play a mage, where you can't use your spells for half the game. Sometimes lore consistency must be sacrificed for the betterment of gameplay.

[erilben]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...
Didn't Ser Bryant also told you that he knew that you were a mage, but he had more serious problems? I can't quite remember.

Btw: Was I the only one who found it hilarious that Bryant always talked about defending the city at all costs and then we learn in DA2 that the templars  ran away, while families like the Hawkes were still in Lothering?

Ser Bryant only says that if you tell him you're a mage.

The only templar I can remember "sensing" anything is Ser Otto in the alienage, and I just assumed it was because he was the only one paying attention to the area.

Actually you can get Bryant to say he knows you are a mage without you telling, and then he says "don't look suprised. I would be a poor templar if I couldn't tell".

The Chantry mother in Redcliffe can tell that the player is a mage, too. She says she won't do anything about it though because she thinks you will be useful for killing the creatures.

[Zepheera]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Btw: Was I the only one who found it hilarious that Bryant always talked about defending the city at all costs and then we learn in DA2 that the templars  ran away, while families like the Hawkes were still in Lothering?

I never even thought of that, but now I can't stop chuckling.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It would suck to play a mage, where you can't use your spells for half the game. Sometimes lore consistency must be sacrificed for the betterment of gameplay.

Then you either shouldn't be able to play a mage OR the lore needs to be adjusted to allow for one to reasonably play a mage OR a reasonable reason needs to be made early on that justifies Hawke's plot armor.

The writers didn't even TRY to justify why an Apoostate Hawke wasn't immediately turned into the Templars less than 10 mins off the boat.

-Polaris

[SennenScale]

I think it's just a matter of paying attention, investigating, and/or intuition rather than templars having an psychic ability to detect mages. 

In the majority of cases, your mage character wears robes into combat, carries a staff, casts spells, and has a reputation for doing these things. Except for the spells, you might be a monk. Luck has it there were zero templars outside when you docked (Meredith had a mandatory meeting for all Templars?) and the one guard who witnessed you casting a spell (theoretically anyhow...I had Carver and Aveline take that fight) may be grateful enough to not rat you out. Stranger things have happened, no?

In the beginning, you're a nobody and not protected by anything. However, a refugee nobody is also not really worth investigating. There's no reason to think the Templars will hone in one face in the crowd if you are careful and no one tattles on you. Plus, in your first year, the mercs/smugglers are protection enough.

After you are cut loose from the mercs/smugglers, you meet Varric. Ingame, it is implied that he spends coin protecting various party members.  Admittedly, these are post-Deep Roads banters, but it's not inconceivable that Varric may be telling whomever he knows to look the other way since he is actively helping you become a business partner for his brother's expedition.

Varric: Daisy, for my sake, please quit cutting through the alleys in Lowtown at night.
Merrill: Nothing ever happens. I'm perfectly safe, Varric.
Varric: Yes, I know. And that nothing is costing me a fortune.


Anders: I just realized it's been a while since any of the gangs in the Undercity came to my door.
Varric: They're busy people. Places to go, throats to cut. Maybe you've slipped their minds.
Anders: Right. The apostate running the free clinic in the sewers. Easy to forget. You didn't have anything to do with this?
Varric: You must have me confused with someone else! I'm just a businessman and a storyteller.


EDIT: Of course, if I was lazy, I could always point out that you casting spells in broad daylight may just be Varric exaggerating or Seeker Cassandra's imagination. Just because you see it onscreen doesn't mean it's what really happened. We know Varric DID bullsh*t about some details in the story, because Cassandra called him out on it a couple times. I think the core of the story is true, but the little details like when blood mages stab their gut with staves rather than slit their hands with a little dagger?  I think that's probably a dramatic over-exaggeration of what's actually happening.

Modifié par SennenScale, 15 mai 2011 - 12:01 .

[kyles3]

IanPolaris wrote...

The writers didn't even TRY to justify why an Apoostate Hawke wasn't immediately turned into the Templars less than 10 mins off the boat.

Yeah, you should just get a game over as soon as you get to Kirkwall. 

[Zepheera]

I don't remember that conversation.. I'll have to go back in and check it out next time I'm on my gaming PC.

[EmperorSahlertz]

He doesn't say he knows she is a mage. He says the she seems odd, and that she better not try anything, and that he will be watching her. He just got a hunch that she is a mage, he doesn't actually know it.

[Zepheera]

SennenScale wrote...

In the majority of cases, your mage character wears robes into combat, carries a staff, casts spells, and has a reputation for doing these things. Except for the spells, you might be a monk. Luck has it there were zero templars outside when you docked (Meredith had a mandatory meeting for all Templars?) and the one guard who witnessed you casting a spell (theoretically anyhow...I had Carver and Aveline take that fight) may be grateful enough to not rat you out. Stranger things have happened, no?

In the beginning, you're a nobody and not protected by anything. However, a refugee nobody is also not really worth investigating. There's no reason to think the Templars will hone in one face in the crowd if you are careful and no one tattles on you. Plus, in your first year, the mercs/smugglers are protection enough.

After you are cut loose from the mercs/smugglers, you meet Varric. Ingame, it is implied that he spends coin protecting various party members.  Admittedly, these are post-Deep Roads banters, but it's not inconceivable that Varric may be telling whomever he knows to look the other way since he is actively helping you become a business partner for his brother's expedition.

EDIT: Of course, if I was lazy, I could always point out that you casting spells in broad daylight may just be Varric exaggerating or Seeker Cassandra's imagination. Just because you see it onscreen doesn't mean it's what really happened. We know Varric DID bullsh*t about some details in the story, because Cassandra called him out on it a couple times. I think the core of the story is true, but the little details like when blood mages stab their gut with staves rather than slit their hands with a little dagger?  I think that's probably a dramatic over-exaggeration of what's actually happening.

In addition, Varric is retelling the arrival into Kirkwall from the events being told to HIM by someone else, either Hawke themself, Aveline, or even by a bystander or the guard.  It's possible that Varric is embellishing the PC's involvement in the fight.  Maybe the 'real' fight took place with no magic being cast whatsoever.

Honestly, having the framed narrative is sheer genius when it comes to inconsistencies like this.  Nearly everything can be blamed on Varric being an unreliable narrator.  He's already been established as someone who exaggerates and embellishes to make a story better.

Modifié par Zepheera, 19 mai 2011 - 10:12 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

It could also be blamed on bad roleplayers. Honestly, if someone is ging to cry foul at the Templars not noticing magic being cast, they are complaining that their imerssion is being spoiled.
Apparently they are just bad roleplayers, becasue a real apostate would enver cast a spell in front of a Templar.
You should just take it for what it is: Gameplay taking precedence over lore. Which in this case is a good thing.