314 réponses à ce sujet

[KilrB]

This is not intended as a rant thread, nor a discussion of all that is right or wrong with DA2.

There are more than enough of those currently, and sure to be many more.

I would like to see some reasoned discussion on what can be done about it.

Yes, I know there are other threads about that too.

If there is one thing clear above all else in these fora, and elsewhere, it is that the direction taken in DA2 has

caused a great divide among us.

It has alienated many of us who consider ourselves "old-school" or "hard-core" ©RPG players.

We can argue about whether either term truly applies to DA:O elswhere.

The response from EAware, to this point, has done nothing but exacerbate these feelings of outrage and alienation.

They cannot, or will not, admit they have made a big mistake.

On the other hand there are those who like the game in spite of, or because of, those elements that others see as

flawed.

I could wish that EAware abandon this new direction and get back to making ©RPG's with the next DA release but that is

not only extremely unlikely to happen but would inflict the same feelings I have about DA2 upon those who like it.

Add to this that EAware has not attracted the new customers, and their cash, that they had hoped for and it would seem

that (imo) they have painted themselves into a corner.

They need their, formerly, loyal customers.

They need new customers.

How can they please both and still make a profit?

I offer a possible solution.

EAware has expressed it's intent to make it's IPs generate year round income.

Many have taken this to mean yearly releases, with dlc content between releases.

IF this is so, and IF EAware cares, my proposal would be two developement teams.

One team to work on a more ©RPG centric game in the fashion of DA:O and the other to continue with the current

direction of DA2 in the action game venue.

They would have releases in alternate years, thus providing a 24 month developement cycle.

Plot and story could be interwoven between the two, along with dlc.

Yes, I know that some of you will bristle at the latter but, if GOOD STORY dlc for one genre were linked to the purchase

of a game from the other genre I would buy it. I will not purchase "horse armor".

I believe this would adequately satisfy both the fans and EAware.

Then again, I may not be able to see the forest for the trees.

I look forward to your critiques and, if necessary, rants.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

KilrB wrote...
They cannot, or will not, admit they have made a big mistake.

They also cannot, or will not, admit they faked the moon landing.  Because they didn't.

What can be done now if they keep making games like DA2, only improve the broken mechanics.

Two dev teams would be neat.  Team one makes the odd numbered games, team two make the even numbered games.  But would that make sense from a perspective of return on investment?  I have no way to know.

[Oban1961]

if GOOD STORY dlc for one genre were linked to the purchase of a game from the other genre I would buy it.

It's touching to see somebody so willing to compromise for our good old cRPGs. I feel for you.
Alas, I cannot join you. I wouldn't part with a single cent to bring anything even remotely similar to DA2 back. Sorry.

Modifié par Oban1961, 09 mai 2011 - 05:11 .

[Realmzmaster]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

KilrB wrote...
They cannot, or will not, admit they have made a big mistake.

They also cannot, or will not, admit they faked the moon landing.  Because they didn't.

What can be done now if they keep making games like DA2, only improve the broken mechanics.

Two dev teams would be neat.  Team one makes the odd numbered games, team two make the even numbered games.  But would that make sense from a perspective of return on investment?  I have no way to know.

Assuming they made a mistake is opinion. If I am not wrong Bioware is already broken into four development teams which are working on different projects. I do not see EA/Bioware making more teams unless they are working on new IP. Also what about the writers. It hard enough to write for one game. Now you want to spread the resouces even thinner. Becuase it is not likely EA will hire more writers and be able to keep story continuity. I do not see the return on investment either.

[Fieryeel]

They can learn lessons from Valve and release free downloadable content.

But alas, they are not Valve, and will not give up this free opportunity to suck money outta us.

[CaptainBlackGold]

First, to the OP, kudos for making a thread trying to be positive and constructive.

Second, if there is a "solution" I am at a loss to figure out what it might be. The issue that amazes me is the polarization - the two "camps" just seem to want completely different things from DA. For example, one of the almost "deal-breakers" for me was being unable to change companion armors. However I have seen numerous people hail this as an improvement! (I bought the game anyways because I was confident the modders would address this soon after release which they did). Or take the re-design of the elves; some people love the new look - others (like myself) think they look downright silly - how can any developer please both camps?

Honestly, and with no malice of intent, I just do not understand those who think DA2 was a "great game" and I suspect that they do not understand why I and so many others, were so disappointed with it. You can see this in every "pro" and "con" discussion thread - they seem to quickly degenerate into vindictive, vitriol and personal attacks because their starting presuppositions, expectations and what they want out of an RPG seem so different.

Making two sorts of games seems reasonable except the investment required is probably unrealistic. For what it is worth, I might suggest that lowering expectations might be an alternative, especially if EA/Bioware insists on producing a new game every year. For example I could have overlooked many of the "flaws" if the story had been tighter, the characters a bit better developed and the combat mechanics refined. So, if the next installment of DA makes a shorter story but a better one, and then fleshes that out with good, story oriented DLC to bridge between releases, maybe the polarization might decrease.

Of course the cost to the consumer is that we have games with significantly less content albeit coming out more frequently. Personally, I love long games that I can replay over and over again. I played DAO every chance I got until Fallout NV came out - which I played continuously until DA2. However, after playing through DA and messing around with some of the mods, I am pretty much done with it. In fact, I am planning on buying The Witcher - and I am not even a Witcher fan!

So different people want/expect different things from DA - and I do not envy the Bioware staff trying to find a way to satisfy both camps.

[Realmzmaster]

@CaptainBlackGold
Changing companion armor for me was not a deal breaker because I had played that way in other Bioware games NWN (NeverWinter Nights) were you are unable to change your henchmen's gear. It changed on level up. So it was not something new to me. I could see why other gamers thought is was a deal breaker. I try to understand both sides of the argument. Yes Bioware will have a tough time pleasing both camps. Because once you give some gamers a new cookie it is tough to take it away. While other gamers do not like the favor of the new cookie.

[MingWolf]

KilrB wrote...
They need their, formerly, loyal customers.

They need new customers.

How can they please both and still make a profit?

They need to bridge the gap between themselves and their customers.  They need to honest with the customers and strive to making the best of what they do.  They need to build games that people would want to play, and focus less on profit maximization, for profits will flow in abundance if they can manage this.  

[Macrake]

They could take the time needed to make their next game GOOD.

Even though i would prefer another direction than what bioware wants, i could still enjoy a well made game that isn't cutting corners all over the place to meet some crazy schedule.

[erynnar]

Realmzmaster wrote...

@CaptainBlackGold
Changing companion armor for me was not a deal breaker because I had played that way in other Bioware games NWN (NeverWinter Nights) were you are unable to change your henchmen's gear. It changed on level up. So it was not something new to me. I could see why other gamers thought is was a deal breaker. I try to understand both sides of the argument. Yes Bioware will have a tough time pleasing both camps. Because once you give some gamers a new cookie it is tough to take it away. While other gamers do not like the favor of the new cookie.

One thing I was pondering...is it really so much that the new cookie tastes so much better to them, or is it a championing of the new cookie because so many hate the new cookie so vocally?  I have seen supporters on threads mentioning they feel they have to push harder for positives of DA2 to counteract the negative feedback.

Personally, I think that we all agree more than we disagree on the things we liked and disliked about DA2. Some were just able to take the good and overlook the bad, and for others, the opposite.

[CaptainBlackGold]

erynnar wrote...

One thing I was pondering...is it really so much that the new cookie tastes so much better to them, or is it a championing of the new cookie because so many hate the new cookie so vocally?  I have seen supporters on threads mentioning they feel they have to push harder for positives of DA2 to counteract the negative feedback.

Personally, I think that we all agree more than we disagree on the things we liked and disliked about DA2. Some were just able to take the good and overlook the bad, and for others, the opposite.

Nicely said; there can and often is a difference between what people SAY they believe/want/like and what they really do. Which makes Bioware's decision making process even more difficult. Just how much credibility do they give to either side when both can be so extreme in the way they express their views?

Snark mode on: Certain Bioware developers need to remember that accusations of "Confirmation Bias" and "Selective Attention" cuts both ways...Snark mode off.

However, there are many things which the "Pro-DA2" folks say they like that are diametrically opposed to what the "Anti-DA2" say they hate - and then of course a vast middle ground where some people like some things and dislike others.

And BTW, in regards to changing companion armor; true, NWN OC did not allow you to do this but all the expansions did, as well as KOTOR and ME 1. Jade Empire did not (even for the PC). Since I started my love affair with Bioware when I discovered NWN - Jade Empire was a disappointment because of the lack of customization - but I overlooked that due to it being a console port. I was much less forgiving of ME2's design decision and very upset when they did that to DA2.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Fieryeel wrote...

They can learn lessons from Valve and release free downloadable content.

But alas, they are not Valve, and will not give up this free opportunity to suck money outta us.

Money they recover through Steam.  ^_^

Nothing is free.

[Night Prowler76]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Fieryeel wrote...

They can learn lessons from Valve and release free downloadable content.

But alas, they are not Valve, and will not give up this free opportunity to suck money outta us.

Money they recover through Steam.  ^_^

Nothing is free.

False, developers have and do give away free DLC sometimes, you know, like the Dark Emporium *facepalm*

Modifié par Night Prowler76, 09 mai 2011 - 07:10 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Night Prowler76 wrote...


False, developers have and do give away free DLC sometimes, you know, like the Dark Emporium *facepalm*

Which you had to buy the game to get.  So not free.  :)

[Night Prowler76]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Night Prowler76 wrote...


False, developers have and do give away free DLC sometimes, you know, like the Dark Emporium *facepalm*

Which you had to buy the game to get.  So not free.  :)

You should work for Fox news, you back peddle better than anyone on here.

[KilrB]

Oban1961 wrote...

if GOOD STORY dlc for one genre were linked to the purchase of a game from the other genre I would buy it.

It's touching to see somebody so willing to compromise for our good old cRPGs. I feel for you.
Alas, I cannot join you. I wouldn't part with a single cent to bring anything even remotely similar to DA2 back. Sorry.

In the case of something "similar to DA2" it would have to be OUTSTANDINGLY GOOD STORY dlc.

Or I could just let my kids play it and hope it won't scar them for life ...

[xCirdanx]

They don´t seem to think, that they have lost "approval" from their fanbase. At last that´s how it looks to me.

We don´t know if there will be a DA3 and if the same people will make it. However if it will be made under the same...leadership, i have no reason to expect a good game.

Anyway, the Bioware love will go strong in some months when TOR hits the shelfs and later ME3. Players tend to only see Bioware as a whole and not the different dev teams behind.

[Sanunes]

I understand what you are saying, but at the same time if you want to be constructive and be taken as such changing the company name to what you want isn't going to help, to be honest it reminds me of kindergarten when the kids would call other people names because their named sounded similar.

Back on topic, the problem is the overall cost of developing a title anymore because they are catering to what people are wanting and the cRPG, I believe its not just EA forcing the issue of trying to broaden the appeal of the game to other genres, but the fact they want to make a profit out of the game. I have read the constructive criticism thread and there has been feedback there, most of it has been I have passed it on, but they are still listening to what is being posted on these boards and I don't know of many game companies that do that.

You avatar mentions you have played Mass Effect 2, I am not sure if you purchased the story DLC for Mass Effect 2, but each DLC got better and better for the story telling that it was doing, I think the best one was Lair of the Shadow Broker for it included a lot of changes to how the quests were done based on the feedback from the boards after the release of Mass Effect 2. If they do the same with the DLC for Dragon Age 2 I will be happy for it means they were listening and hopefully they implement those philosophies into Dragon Age 3 (purely a guess, but I think 2 million sold means there will be a sequel).

I will admit there was enough I didn't like about Dragon Age 2 to say I probably would have waited for it to be $50 or so before I purchased it, but overall it seems better then most games I have purchased, just not to the same level as other Bioware games I have purchased in the past. I am going to give the benefit of the doubt because in what is a record development time of 14 months (the period between release dates, but they could have been working on it before) and the change of a engine they did a decent job. I just hope the people that are complaining that they delayed Mass Effect 3 because they are reading too much into why it was delayed doesn't make Bioware regret delaying a game in the future and rush out another release when it needed more time to be a polished game.

[Sabriana]

Google "EA" and read the wikipedia. I know it's not a scientific site, but it gives info that can be verified. Look at the $ figures. There is nothing that a handful of people can do or say to sway this juggernaut of a corporation. They are dealing in money figures that I, personally, can't even picture in my mind.

The German wiki has the following sentence that is not present in the English version:

Electronic Arts (EA) war bis zu der im Jahr 2008 erfolgten Fusion von Vivendi Games und Activision zu Activision Blizzard der weltweit größte Publisher und Entwickler von Computer- und Videospielen.

Translation: Until the fusion of Vivendi and Activisio to form Activision Blizzard in 2008, EA was the biggest world-wide publisher and developer of computer and video games.

This is power and money that does not need to stay in touch with the players. They can't start to pay attention to the individual markets world-wide. It's a logistical impossibility. The decisions are made on the upper levels and will set a direction.

I'm not a business person, and I never pretended to be. But what will happen with the indvidual dev studios that run under EA parentage is solely for the decision making levels of EA to determine, imo, of course.

[Chuvvy]

They'd need to give me a Small Silver Bar or a small wooden statue of a warrior, before I'd even consider giving them approval.

[Rockpopple]

What mistake would you like them to admit to?

Because aside from the repeated areas, just about every problem in the game is subjective to the player.

So.... what, you expect them to admit to something that was a mistake to you, and not to say, me, or others? Never happen.

Well... not never. When the time comes for them to talk about what they feel were the mistakes of DA II, they will. That's what happened with Origins.

But - to be blunt - as long as the game sells above a certain number, your approval is the least of their worries. That's business.

[Gotholhorakh]

KilrB wrote...
Reasonable OP

I've thought about this long and hard - it's quite difficult without knowing the minutiae to analyse what's happened, and there has been some defensive behaviour that has been downright destructive in terms of press releases, etc.

I know that a lot of us would like to be able to do something, come up with some approach that could help to salve the issues caused by the decisions made over DA2, the subsequent reception of them and the handling of the situation after that.

Now I'm a software developer, I understand the pressures of seeing a product through to release, of having to implement things you know are stupid and be called all kinds of fool for doing so by the people who asked for it in the first place, or even by users, and I've also been a lead developer in the past, so I know, perhaps, some of the pressure that will be at play - there will be many ways in which BioWare will be paralyzed now that the pinata has been whacked; things they might want to do, both friendly and not-so-friendly, which are just not doable at this point. It is apart from anything else, still the product of lots of work by a number of people.

For these reasons I wouldn't expect anybody to come running forth from the BioWare cave apologising for their product, or committing to 6 months of non-stop work to tick the boxes of every random person who dropped a small amount of money on the DVD.

I think that from a PR standpoint, if one wanted to "repair" the relationship issues that have arisen, there has to be a clear acknowledgement of people's concerns, and that not everyone who has felt the game fell short is some kind of deplorable/naive smeghead.

Also, once there has been this, you can actually talk to people on a level - the fanbase is not stupid, and if the situation as it now stands is "we have learned lessons, but ultimately we can only fix the game going forward, we're not even vaguely in a position to retrofit things for free", then TELL PEOPLE THAT.

Some kind of decent human interaction really, some kind of behaviour appropriate to the notion that, even if you disagree with those people, the game prevents refunds and you have their money in the bank, y'know? Common sense stuff.

Even if fact, as it stands, sucks - being on a level and appearing to give a rat's behind would be a start. You can get more out of a relationship with paying customers by not riding rough-shod over their concerns.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 09 mai 2011 - 09:23 .

[PaulSX]

they need to release a really high quality expansion or dlc pack (something like Hordes of the Underdark, that one eliminates my hate on neverwinter nights) also release a area pack to fix the reused maps for the original game

[KilrB]

Rockpopple wrote...

What mistake would you like them to admit to?

Because aside from the repeated areas, just about every problem in the game is subjective to the player.

So.... what, you expect them to admit to something that was a mistake to you, and not to say, me, or others? Never happen.

Well... not never. When the time comes for them to talk about what they feel were the mistakes of DA II, they will. That's what happened with Origins.

But - to be blunt - as long as the game sells above a certain number, your approval is the least of their worries. That's business.

Look around the internet and read what people are saying.

They clearly made A MISTAKE.

You may feel it was only the copy/paste maps, I may feel it was much more.

Subjective or not the negative reaction of so many customers says a mistake, and a big one, was made.

I'm not asking for an apology.

I'm not saying "give our money back".

I'm not say "give me a bunch of free stuff".

I'm only suggesting one possible way they might satisfy the most customers, and keep them as customers.