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What can be done now ... or, How can EAware influence it's approval rating?


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#276
KilrB

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Persephone wrote...

aftohsix wrote...

KilrB wrote...

EDIT:

That goes for you too aftohsix ...



I stopped listening to your opinion the moment you coined the term "EAware."


While I'd not go that far, such name calling strikes me just as juvenile as "Lamelaw", "Laidlow", "Streamlaw" and "Awzum button lulz!" excuses for wit.

*Dodges rotten eggs*:lol:


So, as long as I agree with YOU it's OK to call other peolpe names and belittle them?

Perhaps you missed this exchange?

aftohsix wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

Are
the people who say things like that trolling, or do they actually buy
that? Not all change is good, and disliking a bad change (like trading
your yummy pepperoni pizza for a dog turd) is not synonymous with
disliking -all- change, as Bioware and their shills have been
asserting. 


Callling people who have a different opinion than you "shills" is trolling too.  Wittle timmy.


There's no call for that from either side.

Edit for my spelling.

Modifié par KilrB, 13 mai 2011 - 02:53 .


#277
Everwarden

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Persephone wrote...
And there is no such thing as a "correct opinion" 


We'll just have to agree to disgree on this point.

Here, I'll give you some (ridiculously over-the-top) examples of opinions that are wrong:

"Slavery is a good thing."
"Ke$ha is more talented musically than Mozart was."
"Marc Griffon* is the greatest inventor of the modern age."

*The man who invented www.youtube.com/watch

#278
Persephone

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KilrB wrote...

Persephone wrote...

While I'd not go that far, such name calling strikes me just as juvenile as "Lamelaw", "Laidlow", "Streamlaw" and "Awzum button lulz!" excuses for wit.

*Dodges rotten eggs*:lol:


So, as long as I agree with YOU it's OK to call other peolpe names an belittle them.


No. It isn't. Several "defenders" hate me for reacting the same way when they did it. :happy:

#279
erynnar

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Persephone wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

KilrB wrote...

Is anyone in a responsible position @ EA/Bioware looking at was has happened here and saying ... "maybe we should have ..."?

...more mature fans?


You mean people who don't use rapier wit ala "Lamelaw", "Laidlow" or "Lielaw"? Or who don't think "Button awzum" jokes are the funniest bit of comedy since "Some Like It Hot"....even at the 500th time? Some of these things are more repetetive and annoying than the enviroments in DAII. 

Not a chance, it seems.:alien:




Or the supposedly "mature" fans that make snide comments about other fans....like the above? Yeah, why not hold a mirror up and take a gooood long look before posting a comment like that next time.

So, are you not fans, or immature? Broad bush is broad...

Modifié par erynnar, 13 mai 2011 - 04:14 .


#280
Persephone

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Everwarden wrote...

Persephone wrote...
And there is no such thing as a "correct opinion" 


We'll just have to agree to disgree on this point.

Here, I'll give you some (ridiculously over-the-top) examples of opinions that are wrong:

"Slavery is a good thing."
"Ke$ha is more talented musically than Mozart was."
"Marc Griffon* is the greatest inventor of the modern age."

*The man who invented www.youtube.com/watch


You yourself admitted that these are ridiculously over the top. There are exceptions to every rule. Opinions over pieces of entertainment are fair game. (Every pun intended) Will I gnash my teeth if people tell me that Anna Netrebko is the next Callas? Uh Huh. I'll even argue. But I'll not tell them that their opinions are less valid than mine.:happy:

#281
Persephone

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erynnar wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

KilrB wrote...

Is anyone in a responsible position @ EA/Bioware looking at was has happened here and saying ... "maybe we should have ..."?

...more mature fans?


You mean people who don't use rapier wit ala "Lamelaw", "Laidlow" or "Lielaw"? Or who don't think "Button awzum" jokes are the funniest bit of comedy since "Some Like It Hot"....even at the 500th time? Some of these things are more repetetive and annoying than the enviroments in DAII. 

Not a chance, it seems.:alien:


Or the supposedly "mature" fans that make snide comments about other fans....like the above? Yeah, why not hold a mirror up and take a gooood long look before posting a comment like that next time.


Yes, I do that on a daily basis, at least 50 times a day to make sure everybody and their pets knows about it. Ery, you know I like you a lot. But I do disapprove of that behavior and I will say so. I feel the same way about those who disliked the game being called "haters", "elitists", "trolls", "oldtimers who should just let it go" etc. And you know that.

#282
Kilshrek

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And after much debate and discussion, it has been decided that no one can agree with anyone else, and that EAWare is doomed to sink into the video gaming abyss.

The End.

Just thought I'd help everyone remember what the topic was originally about.

#283
KilrB

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Persephone wrote...

KilrB wrote...

Persephone wrote...

While I'd not go that far, such name calling strikes me just as juvenile as "Lamelaw", "Laidlow", "Streamlaw" and "Awzum button lulz!" excuses for wit.

*Dodges rotten eggs*:lol:


So, as long as I agree with YOU it's OK to call other peolpe names an belittle them.


No. It isn't. Several "defenders" hate me for reacting the same way when they did it. :happy:


That's mighty unkind of them. :pinched:

As I said earlier, we can disagee without being diagreeable.

 ... or holding a grudge.

#284
KilrB

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Kilshrek wrote...

And after much debate and discussion, it has been decided that no one can agree with anyone else, and that EAWare is doomed to sink into the video gaming abyss.

The End.

Just thought I'd help everyone remember what the topic was originally about.


Thanks.

#285
Persephone

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KilrB wrote...

As I said earlier, we can disagee without being diagreeable.

 ... or holding a grudge.


We do not agree on much but you'll get a 100% supportive AMEN from me here.=]

#286
Realmzmaster

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Persephone wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

Persephone wrote...
And there is no such thing as a "correct opinion" 


We'll just have to agree to disgree on this point.

Here, I'll give you some (ridiculously over-the-top) examples of opinions that are wrong:

"Slavery is a good thing."
"Ke$ha is more talented musically than Mozart was."
"Marc Griffon* is the greatest inventor of the modern age."

*The man who invented www.youtube.com/watch


You yourself admitted that these are ridiculously over the top. There are exceptions to every rule. Opinions over pieces of entertainment are fair game. (Every pun intended) Will I gnash my teeth if people tell me that Anna Netrebko is the next Callas? Uh Huh. I'll even argue. But I'll not tell them that their opinions are less valid than mine.:happy:


The examples maybe over the top, but at one time in the past and now in the present there were and are people who believed in those opinions. Slavery in the US was the economic engine of the old South. There were various opinions thrown around as fact to justify its existence.
If you do not like classical music then Ke$ha maybe to your musical taste. The last one maybe not.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 13 mai 2011 - 03:26 .


#287
KilrB

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So, to return to the topic at hand ...

For those of you who like DA2 let's be clear about some things here.

1. I'm not trying to take YOUR game away from you.

2. I feel that EA/Bioware took MY game away from me.

(See that feeling of entitlement goes both ways, deny it all you wish.)

Go back and read my original suggestion ... I'll wait ...

Now maybe that's too expensive, maybe it's not. EA's got deep pockets, and I still wonder how much the parasites in the board room are draining from it's coffers.

It does however satisfy fans of both DA:O and DA2.

It would be very interesting to compare the sales figures after a few years.

#288
aftohsix

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KilrB wrote...

So, as long as I agree with YOU it's OK to call other peolpe names and belittle them?

Perhaps you missed this exchange?

aftohsix wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

Are
the people who say things like that trolling, or do they actually buy
that? Not all change is good, and disliking a bad change (like trading
your yummy pepperoni pizza for a dog turd) is not synonymous with
disliking -all- change, as Bioware and their shills have been
asserting. 


Callling people who have a different opinion than you "shills" is trolling too.  Wittle timmy.


There's no call for that from either side.

Edit for my spelling.


No...  The problem here is you're out of your element.  Mr. Everwarden.  Being the enlightened and well spoken forum member he is has resorted to name calling  regularly in response to mine and several other's posts.  "Wittle Timmy" being his most striking example for me.

I was simply trying to point out that you can't call people trolls while being a huge one yourself.

As for you, you're welcome to dislike the game.  Referring to Bioware as EAWARE however lumps you into the same category as people like Everwarden.  EG:  people I ignore.

Modifié par aftohsix, 13 mai 2011 - 03:42 .


#289
Arbiter156

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CaptainBlackGold wrote...

First, to the OP, kudos for making a thread trying to be positive and constructive.

Second, if there is a "solution" I am at a loss to figure out what it might be. The issue that amazes me is the polarization - the two "camps" just seem to want completely different things from DA. For example, one of the almost "deal-breakers" for me was being unable to change companion armors. However I have seen numerous people hail this as an improvement! (I bought the game anyways because I was confident the modders would address this soon after release which they did). Or take the re-design of the elves; some people love the new look - others (like myself) think they look downright silly - how can any developer please both camps?

Honestly, and with no malice of intent, I just do not understand those who think DA2 was a "great game" and I suspect that they do not understand why I and so many others, were so disappointed with it. You can see this in every "pro" and "con" discussion thread - they seem to quickly degenerate into vindictive, vitriol and personal attacks because their starting presuppositions, expectations and what they want out of an RPG seem so different.

Making two sorts of games seems reasonable except the investment required is probably unrealistic. For what it is worth, I might suggest that lowering expectations might be an alternative, especially if EA/Bioware insists on producing a new game every year. For example I could have overlooked many of the "flaws" if the story had been tighter, the characters a bit better developed and the combat mechanics refined. So, if the next installment of DA makes a shorter story but a better one, and then fleshes that out with good, story oriented DLC to bridge between releases, maybe the polarization might decrease.

Of course the cost to the consumer is that we have games with significantly less content albeit coming out more frequently. Personally, I love long games that I can replay over and over again. I played DAO every chance I got until Fallout NV came out - which I played continuously until DA2. However, after playing through DA and messing around with some of the mods, I am pretty much done with it. In fact, I am planning on buying The Witcher - and I am not even a Witcher fan!

So different people want/expect different things from DA - and I do not envy the Bioware staff trying to find a way to satisfy both camps.

i dont neccessarily agree with everything you have said but i understand your points. i think the solution to this problem is that there needs to be compromise on both side, compromise from bioware on game content ,compromise from both camps on what they want.

personally i think that DA2 was a great game, it did have some major no-nos that made me facepalm (resued dungeons etc) but i simply loved the new combat and the characters. the story was fine it did feel a little odd and this was probably down to it being a bit rushed, but the story line wasnt an absolute disgrace like so many DA:O fans insist. the 3 biggest flaws that DA2 had were these

1.  no squadmate armors- while i dont want a return to the DA:O stlye of armors where all of the designs were more or less reskins i feel that there should have been some limited selection of more unique armors specific to each character that could be swapped out.
2. map design was arlright but the resuse was messy- for the most part the actual design of the maps was good, however kirkwall as a whole felt like i should have been one large map where each area flowed into the next as opposed to a bunch of seperate areas. in short if it was one huge map where you could look down from the viscounts keep at the sprawling city below it would have been flawless. the other point is that the while the maps were well designed the fact that they were resued because the game was rushed was a huge dissapointment. if there was no reuse and more unique maps i.e 5 different dungeons the problem wouldnt exist.
3. the designs, whilst for the most part the new designs were great there were one or 2 questionable ones such as the new darkspawn and the elves. the darkspawn looked fine as they were maybe they needed touching up but they didnt need a make over. the elves would have been fine if it wasnt for two things, the borderline anorexia and the eyes, they really didnt need to be so thin, it made me think about a disturbing anorexia advert i once saw.... not nice the eyes didnt need to be like tennis balls, but despite this merril was my fav character.

those are things bioware should have done and some of them can be addressed with DLC.

the fans on the other hand need to let go of this idea that DA2 is dumbed down with its new tapping A/X to keep attack and that bioware has ripped out the inventory. they asked for it to be streamlined and thats what bioware has done they've made it less tedious to use and the combat much more fluent and tactical. those who are complaining about DA2 being "dumbed down" obviously don't really understand the concept of streamlining. whilst there is a small debate about what exactly should have been streamlined im with bioware on what they did squadmate armors aside.

basically opinions need to change and bioware needs to make up with some quality DLC. come on bioware i believe in you!

#290
KilrB

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aftohsix wrote...

KilrB wrote...

So, as long as I agree with YOU it's OK to call other peolpe names and belittle them?

Perhaps you missed this exchange?

aftohsix wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

Are
the people who say things like that trolling, or do they actually buy
that? Not all change is good, and disliking a bad change (like trading
your yummy pepperoni pizza for a dog turd) is not synonymous with
disliking -all- change, as Bioware and their shills have been
asserting. 


Callling people who have a different opinion than you "shills" is trolling too.  Wittle timmy.


There's no call for that from either side.

Edit for my spelling.


No...  The problem here is you're out of your element.  Mr. Everwarden.  Being the enlightened and well spoken forum member he is has resorted to name calling  regularly in response to mine and several other's posts.  "Wittle Timmy" being his most striking example for me.

I was simply trying to point out that you can't call people trolls while being a huge one yourself.

As for you, you're welcome to dislike the game.  Referring to Bioware as EAWARE however lumps you into the same category as people like Everwarden.  EG:  people I ignore.


For someone that is "ignoring" me you spend an inordinate amount of time trying to get my attention ... 

#291
erynnar

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Persephone wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

KilrB wrote...

Is anyone in a responsible position @ EA/Bioware looking at was has happened here and saying ... "maybe we should have ..."?

...more mature fans?


You mean people who don't use rapier wit ala "Lamelaw", "Laidlow" or "Lielaw"? Or who don't think "Button awzum" jokes are the funniest bit of comedy since "Some Like It Hot"....even at the 500th time? Some of these things are more repetetive and annoying than the enviroments in DAII. 

Not a chance, it seems.:alien:


Or the supposedly "mature" fans that make snide comments about other fans....like the above? Yeah, why not hold a mirror up and take a gooood long look before posting a comment like that next time.


Yes, I do that on a daily basis, at least 50 times a day to make sure everybody and their pets knows about it. Ery, you know I like you a lot. But I do disapprove of that behavior and I will say so. I feel the same way about those who disliked the game being called "haters", "elitists", "trolls", "oldtimers who should just let it go" etc. And you know that.


ROFL! I know you do and I love you for it.! Posted Image I was trying to type at work and hit submit by accident when I got a call. I call people on it too. I just think calling all fans immature is an awfully broad brush...you are a fan, I am a fan...see what I mean? Specifics not generalizations and snark comments.  Those would be trolling.Posted Image

And Perse, I meant to quote Maverick, not you! DOH! Sorry! Stupid work interfering with my chatting! *shakes fist* Posted Image What they pay me to work not socialize? BUGGER!Posted Image

Modifié par erynnar, 13 mai 2011 - 04:23 .


#292
Everwarden

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aftohsix wrote...

As for you, you're welcome to dislike the game.  Referring to Bioware as EAWARE however lumps you into the same category as people like Everwarden.  EG:  people I ignore.


Ignore me by mentioning me by name? Great job. 

#293
aftohsix

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Everwarden wrote...

Ignore me by mentioning me by name? Great job. 


KilrB wrote...

For someone that is "ignoring" me you spend an inordinate amount of time trying to get my attention ... 


So the only part from either of my posts you two took away was that I'm not ignoring you by addressing you.  Correct.  Way to use logic.  However most of the time when I lurk the forums if I see a post by Everwarden I don't read it because he can't argue his points without being rude to others.

Anyway I'm done with this.  It's like talking to a wall.  As always.

#294
Everwarden

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aftohsix wrote...

Anyway I'm done with this.  It's like talking to a wall.  As always.


I see you're still doing a great job ignoring me, bro. Keep up the good work. 

#295
Ariella

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Everwarden wrote...

aftohsix wrote...

Anyway I'm done with this.  It's like talking to a wall.  As always.


I see you're still doing a great job ignoring me, bro. Keep up the good work. 


Do you really need to goad people? Why the need to purposely try and pick a fight?

#296
Everwarden

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Ariella wrote...
Do you really need to goad people? Why the need to purposely try and pick a fight?


I'm not! He claimed he was ignoring me, and has twice since replied to me. I'm just pointing out how ridiculous that is. 

#297
OhoniX

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Here, I'll give you some (ridiculously over-the-top) examples of opinions that are wrong:

"Slavery is a good thing."
"Ke$ha is more talented musically than Mozart was."
"Marc Griffon* is the greatest inventor of the modern age."


No, those are still actually all opinions, and you can hold opinions contrary to them, you'd just be extremely unpopular for doing so. And opinion is still an opinion no matter how many people agree with it, a fact is something that you can choose not to believe, but cannot disprove.

1. I'm not trying to take YOUR game away from you.

2. I feel that EA/Bioware took MY game away from me.

(See that feeling of entitlement goes both ways, deny it all you wish.)


Yes, but neither end of it is at all relevant, since neither of us are entitled to get Bioware to make the game we wanted them to. Only Bioware is entitled to make the game Bioware wanted to, and they made DA2 with that entitlement, so clearly, by coincidence more than entitlement, players who liked DA2 were "right". When you can scrape together enough money to commission an entire game yourself then you can tell Bioware exactly what sort of game they're supposed to make.

1. no squadmate armors- while i dont want a return to the DA:O stlye of armors where all of the designs were more or less reskins i feel that there should have been some limited selection of more unique armors specific to each character that could be swapped out.


To be fair, you can do this with editing, the green Merrill armor I did up looks so much more awesome than the white one she defaults to. They could have given us more options for their outfits, at least letting you choose between the "A" and "B" options at will once you had them, and I wish that you could equip the gear "invisibly" to pass the various buffs on to the team member, but overall I support this design choice. It allows them to create one-of-a-kind looks for the core cast members that really spice up their looks and keeps them iconic, and also means that they don't have to design every single piece of armor in the game such that it could be worn by elfmale, elffemale, and dwarfmale models, as would be necessary to fit them on Fenris, Merrill, and Varric. Hell, I spent most of DA:O hating that I had to change Morrigan out of her default look if I wanted some decent stats for her.

It is, btw, identical to the change they made between ME1 and ME2.

2. map design was arlright but the resuse was messy- for the most part the actual design of the maps was good, however kirkwall as a whole felt like i should have been one large map where each area flowed into the next as opposed to a bunch of seperate areas. in short if it was one huge map where you could look down from the viscounts keep at the sprawling city below it would have been flawless. the other point is that the while the maps were well designed the fact that they were resued because the game was rushed was a huge dissapointment. if there was no reuse and more unique maps i.e 5 different dungeons the problem wouldnt exist.


I don't think their engine was designed to support such large and varied maps, and that's ok, their other games have the same issues. I do think they could have done a better job of establishing the city as a whole entity though, with some CG establishing pans over the city, a more defined city map, things like that to really give you a feel of how the whole city links up. On the bright side the loading times were minimal, if they'd been able to have the sort of large environments you advocate, they'd have really long load times to spool up all that data.

#298
Everwarden

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OhoniX wrote...

No, those are still actually all opinions, and you can hold opinions contrary to them, you'd just be extremely unpopular for doing so. And opinion is still an opinion no matter how many people agree with it, a fact is something that you can choose not to believe, but cannot disprove.


Yes, hence me calling them opinions. Opinions that are wrong. Contrary to the belief in popular culture, not every opinion is valid, or equal. I used ridiculous examples to illustrate just that, and made sure every example was something -firmly- subjective. An opinion is only as valid as the arguments one can use to prop it up. 

As an aside, before someone intentionally misreads what I'm saying: No, I'm not suggesting that Dragon Age 2 is as obviously bad as slavery, I'm making the point that the "Well that's just -your- opinion!" argument can be used to defend any number of idiotic things, like slavery or the Twilight movies.

#299
Tommy6860

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Everwarden wrote...

OhoniX wrote...

No, those are still actually all opinions, and you can hold opinions contrary to them, you'd just be extremely unpopular for doing so. And opinion is still an opinion no matter how many people agree with it, a fact is something that you can choose not to believe, but cannot disprove.


Yes, hence me calling them opinions. Opinions that are wrong. Contrary to the belief in popular culture, not every opinion is valid, or equal. I used ridiculous examples to illustrate just that, and made sure every example was something -firmly- subjective. An opinion is only as valid as the arguments one can use to prop it up. 

As an aside, before someone intentionally misreads what I'm saying: No, I'm not suggesting that Dragon Age 2 is as obviously bad as slavery, I'm making the point that the "Well that's just -your- opinion!" argument can be used to defend any number of idiotic things, like slavery or the Twilight movies.



Would feeling enslaved to the Twilight movies count?
:wizard:

<runs away from the discussion>

#300
CaptainBlackGold

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Arbiter156 wrote...

CaptainBlackGold wrote...


i dont neccessarily agree with everything you have said but i understand your points. i think the solution to this problem is that there needs to be compromise on both side, compromise from bioware on game content ,compromise from both camps on what they want.

[Interesting points snipped for brevity]


I just highlighted your first comments for the sake of keeping this post as small as possible, but appreciate your own thoughtful anaylsis.

I suspect that the polarization may be caused because people tend to focus on the things they like about a particular game and ignore/devalue or dismiss those aspects that they do not. So if a player finds certain things about a game that he likes well enough, he is able to overlook other features that otherwise might "ruin" his experience.

For example, just for grins and giggles, I started a new play through in DAO - and found the combat more tiresome than I originally recalled (especially mages going "pew pew" with their staffs and of course, the infamous "plod, shuffle, er excuse me I need to get around you to slowly swing at the dude over there I am targeted on"). However, it barely registered with me personally, because there were so many other aspects of the game that I did enjoy that the combat deficiencies just did not bother me.

However, in DA2, while I appreciated the sped up combat, I was frustrated and annoyed by the oversized weapons and ninja paratroops - and that I suspect was because I was less than happy with other aspects of the game (armor customization, companion interaction, too linear story line, choices without consequence and what I considered too much filler content).

So while your comment regarding "compromise" is valid - I think people will only be willing to do so if they get from the game the experience THEY want - which may differ from what someone else wants. This makes a DA game a delicate balancing act where the Dev's have to do a lot of juggling to keep the most people happy.

For me, they dropped the ball on some of the aspects of the game I valued most - and hence I am less than satisfied with the final product and the "weaknesses" become more evident. However, if they managed to keep your ball going, then you might be happy with the product and wonder why I (and others like me) are so upset.

As I have said before, I think they had a lot of gems in this game but for reasons we can only speculate on, (lack of time, money, vision whatever), I think they dropped the ball on those things that I personally, always found so rewarding in a Bioware game.

Edited for typoes

Modifié par CaptainBlackGold, 13 mai 2011 - 05:19 .