314 réponses à ce sujet

[Ariella]

Everwarden wrote...

Ariella wrote...
Do you really need to goad people? Why the need to purposely try and pick a fight?

I'm not! He claimed he was ignoring me, and has twice since replied to me. I'm just pointing out how ridiculous that is. 

I just don't see the need to point it out unless you're trying to pick a fight. It's like watching two kids in a school yard trying to get the last poke in before they get seperated. It has nothing to do with DA2, and honestly, is it really that important in the grand scheme of things?

[erynnar]

CaptainBlackGold wrote...

Arbiter156 wrote...

CaptainBlackGold wrote...

i dont neccessarily agree with everything you have said but i understand your points. i think the solution to this problem is that there needs to be compromise on both side, compromise from bioware on game content ,compromise from both camps on what they want.

[Interesting points snipped for brevity]

I just highlighted your first comments for the sake of keeping this post as small as possible, but appreciate your own thoughtful anaylsis.

I suspect that the polarization may be caused because people tend to focus on the things they like about a particular game and ignore/devalue or dismiss those aspects that they do not. So if a player finds certain things about a game that he likes well enough, he is able to overlook other features that otherwise might "ruin" his experience.

For example, just for grins and giggles, I started a new play through in DAO - and found the combat more tiresome than I originally recalled (especially mages going "pew pew" with their staffs and of course, the infamous "plod, shuffle, er excuse me I need to get around you to slowly swing at the dude over there I am targeted on"). However, it barely registered with me personally, because there were so many other aspects of the game that I did enjoy that the combat deficiencies just did not bother me.

However, in DA2, while I appreciated the sped up combat, I was frustrated and annoyed by the oversized weapons and ninja paratroops - and that I suspect was because I was less than happy with other aspects of the game (armor customization, companion interaction, too linear story line, choices without consequence and what I considered too much filler content).

So while your comment regarding "compromise" is valid - I think people will only be willing to do so if they get from the game the experience THEY want - which may differ from what someone else wants. This makes a DA game a delicate balancing act where the Dev's have to do a lot of juggling to keep the most people happy.

For me, they dropped the ball on some of the aspects of the game I valued most - and hence I am less than satisfied with the final product and the "weaknesses" become more evident. However, if they managed to keep your ball going, then you might be happy with the product and wonder why I (and others like me) are so upset.

As I have said before, I think they had a lot of gems in this game but for reasons we can only speculate on, (lack of time, money, vision whatever), I think they dropped the ball on those things that I personally, always found so rewarding in a Bioware game.

Edited for typoes

Very well said!  And yes, it is a balancing act for BioWare.

[Everwarden]

Ariella wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

Ariella wrote...
Do you really need to goad people? Why the need to purposely try and pick a fight?

I'm not! He claimed he was ignoring me, and has twice since replied to me. I'm just pointing out how ridiculous that is. 

I just don't see the need to point it out unless you're trying to pick a fight. It's like watching two kids in a school yard trying to get the last poke in before they get seperated. It has nothing to do with DA2, and honestly, is it really that important in the grand scheme of things?

I don't see how it's any different than you pointing this out to me. Are you trying to 'goad' me? Not that I feel very.. goaded, but I think the same logic applies. 

[Gotholhorakh]

Tommy6860 wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

OhoniX wrote...

No, those are still actually all opinions, and you can hold opinions contrary to them, you'd just be extremely unpopular for doing so. And opinion is still an opinion no matter how many people agree with it, a fact is something that you can choose not to believe, but cannot disprove.

Yes, hence me calling them opinions. Opinions that are wrong. Contrary to the belief in popular culture, not every opinion is valid, or equal. I used ridiculous examples to illustrate just that, and made sure every example was something -firmly- subjective. An opinion is only as valid as the arguments one can use to prop it up. 

As an aside, before someone intentionally misreads what I'm saying: No, I'm not suggesting that Dragon Age 2 is as obviously bad as slavery, I'm making the point that the "Well that's just -your- opinion!" argument can be used to defend any number of idiotic things, like slavery or the Twilight movies.

Would feeling enslaved to the Twilight movies count?


<runs away from the discussion>

YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID. I DEMAND THAT YOU DISPROVE TWILIGHT WITH FACTS.







I'm glad, folks, that we're all insightful enough to see these conversations for what they are, and it's strange that some of my favourite members of the community are the ones I've disagreed with the most. From my point of view, both are good signs.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 13 mai 2011 - 09:07 .

[Ariella]

Everwarden wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

Ariella wrote...
Do you really need to goad people? Why the need to purposely try and pick a fight?

I'm not! He claimed he was ignoring me, and has twice since replied to me. I'm just pointing out how ridiculous that is. 

I just don't see the need to point it out unless you're trying to pick a fight. It's like watching two kids in a school yard trying to get the last poke in before they get seperated. It has nothing to do with DA2, and honestly, is it really that important in the grand scheme of things?

I don't see how it's any different than you pointing this out to me. Are you trying to 'goad' me? Not that I feel very.. goaded, but I think the same logic applies. 

I'm just trying to understand your psychology as it were. You pop on, and more often than not, post a few lines that are inflamatory, and pop off again. I just don't see why you bother, unless there's some kind of gratification you get in the process.

But because of this, it's understandable that some people would bypass most of your postings. From the few posts you've made that have content to them, it's obvious you're intelligent and have strong opinions about the game, which is why it confuses me that you'd waste your time with short posts peppered with colorful metaphors, rather than actually speaking to the subject.

[Ariella]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

OhoniX wrote...

No, those are still actually all opinions, and you can hold opinions contrary to them, you'd just be extremely unpopular for doing so. And opinion is still an opinion no matter how many people agree with it, a fact is something that you can choose not to believe, but cannot disprove.

Yes, hence me calling them opinions. Opinions that are wrong. Contrary to the belief in popular culture, not every opinion is valid, or equal. I used ridiculous examples to illustrate just that, and made sure every example was something -firmly- subjective. An opinion is only as valid as the arguments one can use to prop it up. 

As an aside, before someone intentionally misreads what I'm saying: No, I'm not suggesting that Dragon Age 2 is as obviously bad as slavery, I'm making the point that the "Well that's just -your- opinion!" argument can be used to defend any number of idiotic things, like slavery or the Twilight movies.

Would feeling enslaved to the Twilight movies count?


<runs away from the discussion>

YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID. I DEMAND THAT YOU DISPROVE TWILIGHT WITH FACTS.







I'm glad, folks, that we're all insightful enough to see these conversations for what they are, and it's strange that some of my favourite members of the community are the ones I've disagreed with the most. From my point of view, both are good signs.

If you're going to argue. Argue facts, not opinions.

[Gavinthelocust]

Am I the only one who thinks that mixing names that sound nothing alike together to either try to be witty or make a point should be a criminal offense? Just me? Okay then.

[Ariella]

Gavinthelocust wrote...

Am I the only one who thinks that mixing names that sound nothing alike together to either try to be witty or make a point should be a criminal offense? Just me? Okay then.

Nope, I'm with you there, but that can be seen as easier than making a salient point backed up by facts.

[Gotholhorakh]

OhoniX wrote...
And opinion is still an opinion no matter how many people agree with it, a fact is something that you can choose not to believe, but cannot disprove.

Ha, just out of interest, that's one of the most readily disputable and incorrect definitions of fact I've seen in my life!

(and I've done philosophing, software and worked with lawyers, so you have to be good to get on that list with me )

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 13 mai 2011 - 09:37 .

[OhoniX]

Yes, hence me calling them opinions. Opinions that are wrong.

No, not "opinions that are wrong," because an opinion, by definition, cannot be wrong. They are rather opinions that are unpopular. To be unpopular is not to be wrong, otherwise every one of us supporting an RPG would be wrong. An unpopular opinion is one that many, if not most people within a given sphere disagree with, but that makes it no more "wrong" than an opinion that everyone agrees with. The correctness of an opinion is not democratic, an opinion is still "correct" even if nobody agrees with it.

As an aside, before someone intentionally misreads what I'm saying:
No, I'm not suggesting that Dragon Age 2 is as obviously bad as slavery,
I'm making the point that the "Well that's just -your- opinion!"
argument can be used to defend any number of idiotic things, like
slavery or the Twilight movies.

No, "it's just your opinon" is not a defense of something any more than "because I say so" is a support of it, but that's just the point here. "It's just your opinion" cannot be a defense of slavery, if you want to defend that position you need an argument with merit. Likewise, "because I didn't like this. . ." is not a condemnation of DA2, it's just your opinion, and counts exactly 1/2,000,000th of the total votes that count about DA2. Objectively, the features that you dislike, other people may like. if
they do, then their opinions weigh equally to your own, and Bioware has
no reason to listen to you over them. Now, Bioware can choose to listen to the merits of your position, if the reasons you give are sound then they can choose to adapt in response,  but you are not entitled to be listened to, or cared about, just because you have a strongly held opinion.

Also, Everwarden, you insisted that they mislead people with their bullet list of features. I challenged you on this point, but you were unable to come up with even one bullet point on that last that they actually objectively failed to deliver, so why should I believe that you have any point worth making?

[Haexpane]

Everwarden wrote...

Persephone wrote...
And there is no such thing as a "correct opinion" 

We'll just have to agree to disgree on this point.

Here, I'll give you some (ridiculously over-the-top) examples of opinions that are wrong:

"Slavery is a good thing."
"Ke$ha is more talented musically than Mozart was."
"Marc Griffon* is the greatest inventor of the modern age."

*The man who invented www.youtube.com/watch

The thing about Ke$ha that cracks me up is people talk about her like anyone outside of the UK even knows what it is.

[Gotholhorakh]

Haexpane wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

Persephone wrote...
And there is no such thing as a "correct opinion" 

We'll just have to agree to disgree on this point.

Here, I'll give you some (ridiculously over-the-top) examples of opinions that are wrong:

"Slavery is a good thing."
"Ke$ha is more talented musically than Mozart was."
"Marc Griffon* is the greatest inventor of the modern age."

*The man who invented www.youtube.com/watch

The thing about Ke$ha that cracks me up is people talk about her like anyone outside of the UK even knows what it is.

Or.. lots of people in the UK. Nobody I know in the UK knows who that is, I can only assume it's someone off an ITV talent show, if anyone still watches them.

Pro tip for people who do, That Peter Kay Thing is 1000000x better than any program Simon Cowell ever scoffed at a mentally ill person in.

[Everwarden]

Ariella wrote...
I'm just trying to understand your psychology as it were. You pop on, and more often than not, post a few lines that are inflamatory, and pop off again. I just don't see why you bother, unless there's some kind of gratification you get in the process.

An entirely reasonable assessment, though honestly riling people up isn't my goal. At this point I just try to pop in periodically and make sure the clamor against DA2 hasn't died out, because Bioware needs to know just how badly they blundered on this game, so there needs to be an overwhelming tide of anger to drown out the voices of the people who will tell them they can do no wrong.

Of course, my occasional snide comment isn't going to -really- shift any corporate decisions, but I feel it's necessary to pick up my torch and pitchfork and join the angry mob of detractors. Besides, it's a fun passtime. 

But because of this, it's understandable that some people would bypass most of your postings. From the few posts you've made that have content to them, it's obvious you're intelligent and have strong opinions about the game, which is why it confuses me that you'd waste your time with short posts peppered with colorful metaphors, rather than actually speaking to the subject.

To be honest, the reason is simply that it's a lot more time consuming to type out a long-winded treatise on why Dragon Age 2 is a dismal failure born of greed and laziness than it is for someone to simply reply with "It's all subjective, your argument is therefore invalid." without actually addressing a single point. So.. why bother? 

[Everwarden]

OhoniX wrote...
No, not "opinions that are wrong," because an opinion, by definition, cannot be wrong.

Neither of us is going to budge on this. Opinions can be invalid, and if invalid enough move straight into the 'wrong' box. 

Example fail-opinion: "Dora the Explorer is a better leader than Alexander the Great."

One conquered Persia, the other tells Swiper to stop swiping. The above is an opinion, and by your assertion is one that is necessarily correct by default. 

Also, Everwarden, you insisted that they mislead people with their bullet list of features. I challenged you on this point, but you were unable to come up with even one bullet point on that last that they actually objectively failed to deliver, so why should I believe that you have any point worth making?

If you insist:


Key Features:

    * Embark upon an all-new adventure that takes place across an entire decade and shapes itself around every decision you make. Seven years is not a decade. If they are going to tack on and ending and say "Another three years passed." would it be equally valid for them to just drop you off in Kirkwall and immediately skip to the end? Yes, chronologically ten years will have passed, but you played through perhaps three or four weeks of it. That's a stretch, if not an outright lie. The second part -IS- an outright, objective, no-debate-here lie. The game does not shape itself around every decision you make. In fact, I can only think of two or three decisions in the game that have a consequence beyond a slightly different tone of voice. 
    * Determine your rise to power from a destitute refugee to the revered champion of the land. That's true enough. Though you don't 'determine' anything, you just sit on your rails and let the plot carry you there. Still, minor nitpick. 
    * Think like a general and fight like a Spartan with dynamic new combat mechanics that put you right in the heart of battle whether you are a mage, rogue, or warrior. Well, that depends on the general. Are we talking about General Custer? If so, sure, this is accurate. If it means depth of combat... no. It's a hack-n-slash.
    * Go deeper into the world of Dragon Age with an entirely new cinematic experience that grabs hold of you from the beginning and never lets go. It let me go around the third act. 
    * Discover a whole realm rendered in stunning detail with updated graphics and a new visual style This one is the worst. An outright lie. The implication is that you'll have an entire world to explore. Of course, -technically- the game could all take place in a cardboard box and you could just pull the "It's all subjective!" card, but the game doesn't meet this promise. 

[Stanley Woo]

Since we're no longer discussing Dragon Age II in this thread, I'm shutting it down.

End of line.