314 réponses à ce sujet

[Dragoonlordz]

@Tommy6860

Sorry if I misinterpreted your meaning of which I thought you implied that one effected the other.

Just imagine how much more you could of enjoyed the game (if) a gentle breeze could blow through the grass and you see it's affects, a wind blowing through your hair and it reacting accordingly, NPCs that react not only to your presence and actions but also the weather, the weather system itself ever changing and in a immersive realistic way, NPCs that go about their lives whether you interacted with them or not and even a day and night system that changes with world and people within it acting accordingly.

The Witcher 2 titles has such things and Bioware should look at them and see if they can add any of those aspects to their own titles. How much better would the experience and immersion of been for you if they had that in DAO or DA2? It is not about whether you gleamed enough immersion from a game without it to enjoy the game. Always try to make their games better and better should be the approach and such systems do add to enjoyment and immersion in the worlds of which either company create.

My point and I feel it is a valid one is when a rival company within the same genre as Bioware (RPGs) comes up with a new mechanic or system, Bioware should examine and try to incorporate the best of those things into their games not just dismiss just because you have other things that make your games good, you should add such things to your already existing systems to make your games even better both in realism and immersion. Add such things to what may already be a great game taking it to a new level.

Anyways I'm off to bed, it's 3:40am here but Stanley and the other developers who monitor this forum really should read what I have written here in both the original reply below and this reply too imho. If they see any benefit to what I have said then I would like to know because if it is merely dismissed and ignored I end up losing respect for them in how they approach the worlds they create and the effect it has on the stories they wish fans to enjoy and be immersed in. They should always strive to improve what it is they create and if they fail to see why I said what I have then it does not bode well for the future of their titles.

http://social.biowar...40281/7#7353912

If others feel the need or desire to belittle my opinion or nit pick at it then so be it but to my mind it is a valid opinion and an important one that it very much relevant to the thread itself.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 11 mai 2011 - 02:53 .

[Zanallen]

neppakyo wrote...

Better to send a PM to a mod, the report link goes to some EA drone iirc.

Good point.

[Morroian]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Morroian wrote...

The Witcher wasn't party based was it. Being party based puts more limitations on the engine than with a sole protagonist. 

I do not personally find that excuse acceptable. Improve the engine. If I was to accept that excuse then Bioware are doomed to release the same game from now on because apparently their engine cannot improve enough to have wind effects, rain or actual transitioning day/night cycles even NPC reactions to your presence or actions. If they cannot overcome such things within the next few years they are in serious trouble. As their competitors improve and create such features and aspects to their games if Bioware fail to keep up then they are in deep trouble over the coming years like said.

Its not just a matter of money, having a full party fully controllable is resource intensive, probably too resource intensive to realistically add in the most graphically advanced features. The engines of TW2 and DA2 almost cannot be compared because they are 2 very different types of games.  From what I remember Bioware were forced to create their own engine for DAO because no engine available would allow them to do what they wanted in terms of having a full party based tactical combat game. Also IIRC Obsidian have said the same about DS3 although I don't think that has a full party just a follower or 2.

Having said that I wouldn't have thought day night transitions would pose that much of a problem and wish that they would implement something like that.

Modifié par Morroian, 11 mai 2011 - 03:45 .

[Persona]

Zanallen wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

Better to send a PM to a mod, the report link goes to some EA drone iirc.

Good point.

like I care

[neppakyo]

Morroian wrote...

Its not just a matter of money, having a full party fully controllable is resource intensive, probably too resource intensive to realistically add in the most graphically advanced features. The engines of TW2 and DA2 almost cannot be compared because they are 2 very different types of games.  From what I remember Bioware were forced to create their own engine for DAO because no engine available would allow them to do what they wanted in terms of having a full party based tactical combat game. Also IIRC Obsidian have said the same about DS3 although I don't think that has a full party just a follower or 2.

Having said that I wouldn't have thought day night transitions would pose that much of a problem and wish that they would implement something like that.

The Aurora engine did fine at doing party based. NWN1/2 had them, the DA:O engine was a re-write of their old engine to update it for more modern PC's. DA2 uses the same DA:O engine, but with code cleanup, tweaks and enhancements.

Plus, The Witcher was based off books with Geralt being the main character, and doing things alone I believe. I should look for the books someday, I quite like the story. 

[WilliamShatner]

simfamSP wrote...

Fieryeel wrote...

They can learn lessons from Valve and release free downloadable content.

But alas, they are not Valve, and will not give up this free opportunity to suck money outta us.

Valve can afford it due to their larger audience.

I think you will find that Valve has that larger audience in part due to their commiment to fans and post-release customer service.

Games like Day of Defeat and Team Fortress classic had updates that pretty much reworked the entire game and added tonnes of new content.  For free.

[RaenImrahl]

[quote removed]
Buh-bye! (Cue banhammer).

Everyone else... carry on.

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 11 mai 2011 - 04:45 .

[Kilshrek]

WilliamShatner wrote...



I think you will find that Valve has that larger audience in part due to their commiment to fans and post-release customer service.

Games like Day of Defeat and Team Fortress classic had updates that pretty much reworked the entire game and added tonnes of new content.  For free.

Emphasis mine.

[v_ware]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Sure, it's all well and good to compare us to other, similar games, but please keep in mind that different developers will have made their games from different starting points and they will have necessarily different priorities. If Dragon Age II had had photorealistic graphics as one of its goals from the beginning, well, then you can betcha that we would have done our level best to achieve that goal. But photorealistic graphics--or, indeed, any particular style of graphics--are not an objective measure of game quality.

I find that it's just as misguided as measuring people's intelligence by the longest paper they've ever submitted to a teacher or deciding an applicant's value as a potential employee by how much he's spent on his interview suit..

Using photorealistic graphics and a subjective mark of quality (ie. a preference for such graphics) is perfectly understandable, but not every game uses (or requires) such fidelity in their visual imagery. Many people in this forum have touted Baldur's Gate to be one of, if not the best RPG they've played, and yet that game was not even in 3D, and the technology of a decade ago was somewhat primitive and expensive compared to today. Yet folks continue to use it as a benchmark of RPG quality.

Yes, there is likely a lot that BioWare could learn about other developers and how they make games, but it is just as valid to say that other developers have things they could learn from us. It just may not be the same things you are thinking of.

Hah. Baldur's gate had top notch graphics back then. Anywho. What bothers me about the graphics is not the look but the limited amount of places to go, no living world, no noticable changes to the city in 10 years. Those are also criteria that account for the overall realism of the graphics. 

And then there's the gameplay. And the story. All are lackluster and subpar to other Bioware games.

This game just screams rushjob/laziness.

[Oban1961]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...
Fun is all most people are after.

And only the 'instant gratification/don't make me think twice' approach provides fun?! (I better answer that for you: NO.)
But that's what many gaming studios seem to think atm - I'll give you that. EA et.al. are probably hoping to find the 'one-genre-fits-them-all' solution for eternal maximal profit.

Imo, this is just a current trend that'll see a backlash in a while. People might get bored with being constantly served the same stream-lined no-brainer dish and will crave for variety and specialisation again.

[Snowflake_in_Hel]

I very much enjoyed DA:O&A, and count it as one of my all-time favorites, a classic.

DA2 has been installed for awhile now, but it was bought because I wanted to thank Bioware for DA:O&A, not because I was interested in that game.  I haven't spent more than 5 minutes playing DA2 and I doubt very much that anything will change about that on my system in the foreseeable future.

I simply don't like that game, from the cartoon artwork, the "here comes another wave" mentality, lack of the ability to customize the player character, and cartoon combat among a lot of other things.  If this is an example of the path Bioware wants to follow, great!  It may appeal to kiddies, but it does not appeal to me.  

I'll spend my resources on games like DA:O&A, games that I like.  If Bioware is no longer able to provide those kind of games I'll simply seek them elsewhere.  Not another penny from me unless I actually like the game being presented.

Wassail.
werwulf.

 *edit to fix grammar*

Modifié par Snowflake_in_Hel, 11 mai 2011 - 08:45 .

[Chromie]

How about dialogue be like in Deus Ex: Human Revolution?

DeusX HR has a dialogue system that shows you the full lines when you mouse over the paraphrased answers. I would call that the intelligent and optimal approach instead of only paraphrased lines.

[Chromie]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...

How about dialogue be like in Deus Ex: Human Revolution?

DeusX HR has a dialogue system that shows you the full lines when you mouse over the paraphrased answers. I would call that the intelligent and optimal approach instead of only paraphrased lines.

How about not having the dialouge wheel in DA3. At all. It limits you to one race, forsakes deeper RP'ing in favor of a more cinematic feel(which was really unnessecary, IMO), You can't talk to your companions anytime you want, you can't project yourself onto the PC, or having a different voice and tone for each of your PCs in your head(like i've had for mine in every BioWare game, except for the ME games and DA2). Simply get rid of it, and please go back to the mute PC. This is all my personal opinion, of course.

Yup that's your personal opinion.

[AkiKishi]

Zanallen wrote...

How can they be Bioware's competitors if they make a different genre of games? Also, we all know DA2 was a rushed game and not a shining example of what Bioware is capable of. Honestly, it is pretty easy to understand. Bioware puts a priority on specific aspects of their games. Other aspects are therefore lacking. Could they do everything that everyone wants? Sure, I suppose. However, the cost of the game would be ridiculous and it would be even harder to make a substancial profit. Just look at FFXIII, the graphics and combat were overhauled to an incredible level and so they had to sacrifice other aspects of the game.

That was intent on the part of SE to make FFXIII playable by "anyone". Nothing is really sacrificed in FFXIII it's all there, same elements as any other FF. Now if you mean the linearity compared to FFXII, again totally intentional, one of the complaints of FFXII (on the Japanese side) was the large areas diluted the plot and characters and made the game unfocused. Can't really argue with that, it's a preference thing.

I don't like FFXIII and I don't like much of the design phillosophy behind it. But there is very little wrong with it that goes beyond a preference.

[AkiKishi]

Zanallen wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

KilrB wrote...

They have learned Mr. Woo, thay have ... and it now appears that the students shall outstrip the master.

What can they learn from DA2?

More importantly, what will EA/Bioware learn from it?

Have the students learned how to make strong companions with group based combat?

Final Fantasy has been doing that for years.

Isn't the general consensus on these forums that cRPGs are not jRPGs and should not be compared? And the FF games hardly have strong group based combat.

Nothing wrong with comparing design elements. JPRGs just tend to be less obvious than just picking from a list when it comes to character interactions. JRPGs tend to be about "flags" like seeing the right events or being in the right place at the right time, or doing actions in a certain order. Perfect example of that is who you go on the date with in FFVII, it's not just a case of talking to the character and picking the big glowy icon.

[element eater]

Stanley Woo wrote...
Using photorealistic graphics and a subjective mark of quality

i like that comment :happy: its a pitty more people dont realise that

[Tommy6860]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

@Tommy6860

Sorry if I misinterpreted your meaning of which I thought you implied that one effected the other.

Just imagine how much more you could of enjoyed the game (if) a gentle breeze could blow through the grass and you see it's affects, a wind blowing through your hair and it reacting accordingly, NPCs that react not only to your presence and actions but also the weather, the weather system itself ever changing and in a immersive realistic way, NPCs that go about their lives whether you interacted with them or not and even a day and night system that changes with world and people within it acting accordingly.

The Witcher 2 titles has such things and Bioware should look at them and see if they can add any of those aspects to their own titles. How much better would the experience and immersion of been for you if they had that in DAO or DA2? It is not about whether you gleamed enough immersion from a game without it to enjoy the game. Always try to make their games better and better should be the approach and such systems do add to enjoyment and immersion in the worlds of which either company create.

My point and I feel it is a valid one is when a rival company within the same genre as Bioware (RPGs) comes up with a new mechanic or system, Bioware should examine and try to incorporate the best of those things into their games not just dismiss just because you have other things that make your games good, you should add such things to your already existing systems to make your games even better both in realism and immersion. Add such things to what may already be a great game taking it to a new level.

Anyways I'm off to bed, it's 3:40am here but Stanley and the other developers who monitor this forum really should read what I have written here in both the original reply below and this reply too imho. If they see any benefit to what I have said then I would like to know because if it is merely dismissed and ignored I end up losing respect for them in how they approach the worlds they create and the effect it has on the stories they wish fans to enjoy and be immersed in. They should always strive to improve what it is they create and if they fail to see why I said what I have then it does not bode well for the future of their titles.

http://social.biowar...40281/7#7353912

If others feel the need or desire to belittle my opinion or nit pick at it then so be it but to my mind it is a valid opinion and an important one that it very much relevant to the thread itself.

No need to apologize, I respect your thoughts and I wasn't taking anything personallly that would warrant an apology.



Anyhoo, I know what you mean and yes, if I could get some great visuals, that would be really cool. But with development cost and fast money wanting to be made in the dog eat dog world of capitalism, I wonder if that will truly be a game I would ever see .



To your last sentence, I hear you and if belittling is all anyone has, than it isn't worth replying to, I will not bite on personal attacks,  nor will I reply in such a manner, nor will I reply to anyone who makes an attack on me or someone, I just don't have time when all I want to do is have a civil discussion, in even a socratic method if possible. To be honest, I have been thinking of just moving on since these forums are getting stale with little thoughtful critical input and tons of ad hominem output, it is really disconcerting when I find myself limiting my reading to just a few folks around here who don't engage in it.

Ahh, enough already and sorry for tears here, been a tough night at work.

Modifié par Tommy6860, 11 mai 2011 - 01:21 .

[Gotholhorakh]

Dragoonlordz wrote...
Just imagine how much more you could of enjoyed the game (if) a gentle breeze could blow through the grass and you see it's affects, a wind blowing through your hair and it reacting accordingly, NPCs that react not only to your presence and actions but also the weather, the weather system itself ever changing and in a immersive realistic way, NPCs that go about their lives whether you interacted with them or not and even a day and night system that changes with world and people within it acting accordingly.

Heh, I wouldn't get too carried away with this sort of thing, these same features have been loudly announced, foretold and claimed by games since before BG.


I wouldn't take a blind bit of notice, myself - look at your list, it reads like an interview about Oblivion, just about everything Peter Molyneux has ever done (with respect to him) and countless other games.

It is often overpromised and underdelivered, it's frippery and even where it happens it makes precious little difference to gameplay at all.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 11 mai 2011 - 02:26 .

[ULTIMAHUNTER_]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Sure, it's all well and good to compare us to other, similar games, but please keep in mind that different developers will have made their games from different starting points and they will have necessarily different priorities. If Dragon Age II had had photorealistic graphics as one of its goals from the beginning, well, then you can betcha that we would have done our level best to achieve that goal. But photorealistic graphics--or, indeed, any particular style of graphics--are not an objective measure of game quality.

I find that it's just as misguided as measuring people's intelligence by the longest paper they've ever submitted to a teacher or deciding an applicant's value as a potential employee by how much he's spent on his interview suit..

Using photorealistic graphics and a subjective mark

of quality (ie. a preference for such graphics) is perfectly understandable, but not every game uses (or requires) such fidelity in their visual imagery. Many people in this forum have touted Baldur's Gate to be one of, if not the best RPG they've played, and yet that game was not even in 3D, and the technology of a decade ago was somewhat primitive and expensive compared to today. Yet folks continue to use it as a benchmark of RPG quality.

Yes, there is likely a lot that BioWare could learn about other developers and how they make games, but it is just as valid to say that other developers have things they could learn from us. It just may not be the same things you are thinking of.

Yes! Other devs could learn how to make a game with bad graphics and manage to be lame enough to recicle 90% of the envoirments in the game. They could also learn how to release incomplete games full of buggs.

Now seriusly, gameplay > graphics. But if your not even going to waste time making the game good looking atleast make a huge and varied world, but this game dosn't even have that...

[Dragoonlordz]

Tommy6860 wrote...

No need to apologize, I respect your thoughts and I wasn't taking anything personallly that would warrant an apology.



Anyhoo, I know what you mean and yes, if I could get some great visuals, that would be really cool. But with development cost and fast money wanting to be made in the dog eat dog world of capitalism, I wonder if that will truly be a game I would ever see .



To your last sentence, I hear you and if belittling is all anyone has, than it isn't worth replying to, I will not bite on personal attacks,  nor will I reply in such a manner, nor will I reply to anyone who makes an attack on me or someone, I just don't have time when all I want to do is have a civil discussion, in even a socratic method if possible. To be honest, I have been thinking of just moving on since these forums are getting stale with little thoughtful critical input and tons of ad hominem output, it is really disconcerting when I find myself limiting my reading to just a few folks around here who don't engage in it.

Ahh, enough already and sorry for tears here, been a tough night at work.

Ditto, I have been thinking the same about moving on and contributing to other game(s) debates on other forums. That debating on here is like talking to a wall or maybe feels like an arena or coliseum where the fans and critics are being thrown into the ring and fighting it out. Meanwhile the developers monitor and watch from above and throw the occassional gesture into the ring to prolong the fight. 

I have edited my original review to cover what I talked about here but overall I do feel as though other than repeating what I have already added towards discussion of the game and it's direction there is much like the re-use of maps in DA2 ~I'm just re-debating the same things over and over. Also like the ending of DA2 with how railroaded it bacame and choices removed ~On these forums a feeling of my opinions or input not being taken into account or listened too, just instead being targetted by other members of the forum (my views and oipinions) and attacked forcing me to defend my position on a daily basis over the same things again and again.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 11 mai 2011 - 04:00 .

[Gotholhorakh]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Sure, it's all well and good to compare us to other, similar games, but please keep in mind that different developers will have made their games from different starting points and they will have necessarily different priorities. If Dragon Age II had had photorealistic graphics as one of its goals from the beginning, well, then you can betcha that we would have done our level best to achieve that goal. But photorealistic graphics--or, indeed, any particular style of graphics--are not an objective measure of game quality.

No, of course not, and I think most of us would agree that no objective measure of quality exists beyond simple and obvious things like bugs.

Really, the main thing is probably that people enjoy it and buy it - those are the best measures we can get, and neither is really and truly the same thing as "quality".

I find that it's just as misguided as measuring people's intelligence by the longest paper they've ever submitted to a teacher or deciding an applicant's value as a potential employee by how much he's spent on his interview suit..

Using photorealistic graphics and a subjective mark of quality (ie. a preference for such graphics) is perfectly understandable, but not every game uses (or requires) such fidelity in their visual imagery. Many people in this forum have touted Baldur's Gate to be one of, if not the best RPG they've played, and yet that game was not even in 3D, and the technology of a decade ago was somewhat primitive and expensive compared to today. Yet folks continue to use it as a benchmark of RPG quality.

It wasn't perfect, but it was certainly very very good. Baldur's Gate 2, by the way, better than BG, that's simple irrefutable objective fact.

As a longstanding RPG fan, I fully expect the value of omega, when humanity solves it, will be a BG2 serial number.

Yes, there is likely a lot that BioWare could learn about other developers and how they make games, but it is just as valid to say that other developers have things they could learn from us. It just may not be the same things you are thinking of.

Notwithstanding DA2, I think BioWare beat The Witcher into the ground like a tent peg with at least 4 of your games, and I fully expect that once Derek Smart is off the consultancy retainer, BioWare will return to being the industry-beating, world devouring greatest of all time.

(words cannot express how inexplicably shocked I will be if this expectation is not met, or the sheer nerdrage that will ensue, of course)

In the meantime, The Witcher 2 is something we can all (tentatively) look forward to, including no doubt some of the developers and testers an BioWare.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 11 mai 2011 - 03:22 .

[Stanley Woo]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

No, of course not, and I think most of us would agree that no objective measure of quality exists beyond simple and obvious things like bugs.

Really, the main thing is probably that people enjoy it and buy it - those are the best measures we can get, and neither is really and truly the same thing as "quality".

Agreed. Games are meant to be entertaining and enjoyed. At their heart, they are, after all, games!

I find that it's just as misguided as measuring people's intelligence by the longest paper they've ever submitted to a teacher or deciding an applicant's value as a potential employee by how much he's spent on his interview suit..

It wasn't perfect, but it was certainly very very good. Baldur's Gate 2, by the way, better than BG, that's simple irrefutable objective fact.

Better in terms of quantifiable numbers, absolutely. Better in the subjective sense can be inferred, but may not necessarily be true. I have seen posts from people who seem to prefer BG graphics. Strange to you and me (and millions of others), I know, but then, some people like brussels sprouts, too.

In the meantime, The Witcher 2 is something we can all (tentatively) look forward to, including no doubt some of the developers and testers an BioWare.

Absolutely. It's looking like it will be an awesome game. The degree of success of The Witcher 2 ultimately has no bearing on whether or not the individual gamer liked or did not like Dragon Age II.

[erynnar]

Ringo12 wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...

How about dialogue be like in Deus Ex: Human Revolution?

DeusX HR has a dialogue system that shows you the full lines when you mouse over the paraphrased answers. I would call that the intelligent and optimal approach instead of only paraphrased lines.

How about not having the dialouge wheel in DA3. At all. It limits you to one race, forsakes deeper RP'ing in favor of a more cinematic feel(which was really unnessecary, IMO), You can't talk to your companions anytime you want, you can't project yourself onto the PC, or having a different voice and tone for each of your PCs in your head(like i've had for mine in every BioWare game, except for the ME games and DA2). Simply get rid of it, and please go back to the mute PC. This is all my personal opinion, of course.

Yup that's your personal opinion.

One I happen to share. So yep, it's hers and mine. And some others. And you like the wheel. Got it.

[KilrB]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

No, of course not, and I think most of us would agree that no objective measure of quality exists beyond simple and obvious things like bugs.

Really, the main thing is probably that people enjoy it and buy it - those are the best measures we can get, and neither is really and truly the same thing as "quality".

Agreed. Games are meant to be entertaining and enjoyed. At their heart, they are, after all, games!

I find that it's just as misguided as measuring people's intelligence by the longest paper they've ever submitted to a teacher or deciding an applicant's value as a potential employee by how much he's spent on his interview suit..

It wasn't perfect, but it was certainly very very good. Baldur's Gate 2, by the way, better than BG, that's simple irrefutable objective fact.

Better in terms of quantifiable numbers, absolutely. Better in the subjective sense can be inferred, but may not necessarily be true. I have seen posts from people who seem to prefer BG graphics. Strange to you and me (and millions of others), I know, but then, some people like brussels sprouts, too.

In the meantime, The Witcher 2 is something we can all (tentatively) look forward to, including no doubt some of the developers and testers an BioWare.

Absolutely. It's looking like it will be an awesome game. The degree of success of The Witcher 2 ultimately has no bearing on whether or not the individual gamer liked or did not like Dragon Age II.

That's all well and good.

Is anyone in a responsible position @ EA/Bioware looking at was has happened here and saying ... "maybe we should have ..."?

Can we count on another awesome game in the Dragon Age setting, or was Origins a one-shot?

I really had hoped to spend a lot of quality time in Thedas, but things aren't looking good right now Stanley.