314 réponses à ce sujet

[Realmzmaster]

Awesome is an opinion. Origins was awesome to many gamers to some it was not awesome. DA 2 to some gamers was a good game to others a pile of crap. It all a matter of subjectivity. I sure the next DA game will be the same way. Some will say it is awesome, some will say it is good some will say it does not hold a candle to old school CRPGs. It is not the spiritual successor to BG.

Bioware will put out the game it envisions and we the gamers will decide if it is any good. But no developer can guarantee an awesome game. At best the developer will be happy if it can satisfy most of its audience.
But I guarantee that gamers will be on the forums expressing their praise and damnation about the game.
I remember when many were complaining that DAO is not the spiritual successor to BG. Ah! the more things change the more they stay the same.

[CaptainBlackGold]

Realmzmaster wrote...

SNIP

Bioware will put out the game it envisions and we the gamers will decide if it is any good. But no developer can guarantee an awesome game.

You know, I hope what you say above happens - that Bioware is allowed to create the game it envisions. It is just that in DA2's case, I suspect that for a variety of reasons - many of them perhaps beyond their control - they were unable to do so.

I don't want to rehash every "flaw" or "complaint" that people raise about DA2 - and for those who really enjoyed the game - more power to them. And I mean that sincerely.

But when I compare this game to everything else I have played from Bioware, it just did not seem up to their normal standards. There were bits of brilliance, little gems sprinkled through the game that reminded me of what a great game maker Bioware is - but other things that seemed rushed, unfinished, not well thought out. Whether this was due to lack of time, corporate mandates, trying to do too much with too few resources, etc. I am not convinced at this time that this game as it currently stands is really the game they originally envisioned.

I could be wrong, and anything I say is pure speculation - but if Bioware is actually happy with the final DA2 product, then, well... I am not sure what to say.

Bioware has a well earned reputation as being the best at what they do - here's to hoping that this continues to be true in the future.

[KilrB]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Awesome is an opinion. Origins was awesome to many gamers to some it was not awesome. DA 2 to some gamers was a good game to others a pile of crap. It all a matter of subjectivity. I sure the next DA game will be the same way. Some will say it is awesome, some will say it is good some will say it does not hold a candle to old school CRPGs. It is not the spiritual successor to BG.

Bioware will put out the game it envisions and we the gamers will decide if it is any good. But no developer can guarantee an awesome game. At best the developer will be happy if it can satisfy most of its audience.
But I guarantee that gamers will be on the forums expressing their praise and damnation about the game.
I remember when many were complaining that DAO is not the spiritual successor to BG. Ah! the more things change the more they stay the same.

True enough, but there are a whole lot of us who are "subjectively disatisfied" with their latest offering.

Add to that the "Let them eat cake" attitude coming from EA/Bioware and it may be time to strike up "La Marseillaise".

[Redneck1st]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Redneck1st wrote...

Seems like all the game makers out there are going against this form of game play for reason's of their own.

I've suggested several times that the reason that game companies have stopped making DAO/BG/NWN games is that there isn't enough of a market left to justify making them anymore.  There's enough of an audience to support one game every couple years.  As opposed to shooter and action games which have enormous audiences.

BioWare keeps making DAO games, then I'm out.  I enjoyed DAO as a reminder of the old days.  It was a fun throw back... but games like that are done.  I'm not interested in them anymore.  I know you are, and I hope to heck you find more games that you love...  but I don't think there's going to be too many.  :)

Well games like BG, NWN, DAO are games for which were fun and enjoyable to play. They in fact had a story and you felt part of the game not so much with DA2.

Now you say that there isn't enough of a market for games like this. I beg to differ with you. Look at the sales of these types of games. As for the Shooter and action games I for one don't care for them at all and won't ever buy one. They just don't hold my interest at all. Just like I don't buy the ones for which are stricty online. I thought of buying WoW or one of the others and giving them a try. The reason for which I've not done so is due to the fact that 1. I work 3rd shift and I'm not sure how a game like that there works online. If I meet a few people and start playing with them online do I have to wait til we are all online before I can play it? Also the fact that you've got to pay money every month to continue playing it. I understand that the cost of servers and those to keep them up cost money its just the fact that some of us, including myself,  can't afford to be shelling out that kind of money right now.

[erynnar]

Redneck1st wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Redneck1st wrote...

Seems like all the game makers out there are going against this form of game play for reason's of their own.

I've suggested several times that the reason that game companies have stopped making DAO/BG/NWN games is that there isn't enough of a market left to justify making them anymore.  There's enough of an audience to support one game every couple years.  As opposed to shooter and action games which have enormous audiences.

BioWare keeps making DAO games, then I'm out.  I enjoyed DAO as a reminder of the old days.  It was a fun throw back... but games like that are done.  I'm not interested in them anymore.  I know you are, and I hope to heck you find more games that you love...  but I don't think there's going to be too many.  :)

Well games like BG, NWN, DAO are games for which were fun and enjoyable to play. They in fact had a story and you felt part of the game not so much with DA2.

Now you say that there isn't enough of a market for games like this. I beg to differ with you. Look at the sales of these types of games. As for the Shooter and action games I for one don't care for them at all and won't ever buy one. They just don't hold my interest at all. Just like I don't buy the ones for which are stricty online. I thought of buying WoW or one of the others and giving them a try. The reason for which I've not done so is due to the fact that 1. I work 3rd shift and I'm not sure how a game like that there works online. If I meet a few people and start playing with them online do I have to wait til we are all online before I can play it? Also the fact that you've got to pay money every month to continue playing it. I understand that the cost of servers and those to keep them up cost money its just the fact that some of us, including myself,  can't afford to be shelling out that kind of money right now.

If you want an MMORPG you dont' have to worry about waiting and you don't monthly fees (for no content or crap content) once a month, play Guild Wars. It has pretty artwork. You pay for the game. All content (and there's plenty) is released for free. You can join up with others to play but you don't have to. NPC group of followers allows you to run most dungeons on your own.

[KilrB]

Tried it (Guild Wars) for a while.

It's OK, but it's not Thedas.

Tried Conan too.

Same thing.

They just weren't entertaining enough to keep me playing.

[Hatchetman77]

All they really need to do is stop talking about DA2 in the media.  Just let it blow over, learn from your mistakes and make DA3 better.

[KilrB]

Hatchetman77 wrote...

All they really need to do is stop talking about DA2 in the media.  Just let it blow over, learn from your mistakes and make DA3 better.

They have a very short attention span.

If we stop reminding them how "displeased" we are with it they will make DA2-2 ...with even more awesome.

[Morroian]

KilrB wrote...

Is anyone in a responsible position @ EA/Bioware looking at was has happened here and saying ... "maybe we should have ..."?

They have said they're taking into account constructive feedback, you can't expect more than that.

KilrB wrote...

They have a very short attention span.

If we stop reminding them how "displeased" we are with it they will make DA2-2 ...with even more awesome.

Actually keeping on whinging will only make them ignore you all the more. They've got the feedback they well and truly know what went wrong with the game.

Modifié par Morroian, 12 mai 2011 - 01:59 .

[Deganis76]

Morroian wrote...

KilrB wrote...

They have a very short attention span.

If we stop reminding them how "displeased" we are with it they will make DA2-2 ...with even more awesome.

Actually keeping on whinging will only make them ignore you all the more. They've got the feedback they well and truly know what went wrong with the game.

Truer words were never spoken.  Trust me, they've heard the feedback. They've also got the crisp bottom line of greenback..I mean feedback... to the tune of 2 million copies shipped.

[erynnar]

Deganis76 wrote...

Morroian wrote...

KilrB wrote...

They have a very short attention span.

If we stop reminding them how "displeased" we are with it they will make DA2-2 ...with even more awesome.

Actually keeping on whinging will only make them ignore you all the more. They've got the feedback they well and truly know what went wrong with the game.

Truer words were never spoken.  Trust me, they've heard the feedback. They've also got the crisp bottom line of greenback..I mean feedback... to the tune of 2 million copies shipped.

Ugh here we go again.. Yes 2mil shipped in, as in to retailers, not consumers. In business terms that means to retailers with the ability to send back if they don't sell. Will it sell 2 mil? Probably. But it hasn't yet. And that  old chestnut of an argument is carried on another thread. Let's not put it here too.

[Morroian]

erynnar wrote...

Ugh here we go again.. Yes 2mil shipped in, as in to retailers, not consumers. In business terms that means to retailers with the ability to send back if they don't sell. 

Is that correct? That would mean they are really just consignment stock. I thought they were actual wholesale sales and if the retailers couldn't sell them the effect would be felt in the next game with fewer advance orders.

ETA OK after reviewing the 2M sales thread publishers may buy back unsold stock but it doesn't always happen and there's no evidence that it has or will happen in this case.

Modifié par Morroian, 12 mai 2011 - 02:56 .

[Bryy_Miller]

KilrB wrote...
If we stop reminding them how "displeased" we are with it they will make DA2-2 ...with even more awesome.

Oh, your sense of importance here is just too cute.

So you didn't like the game? Okay. That's cool. But to justify why you need to continue bashing it? Yeah, that's a little weird, and if I were a dev on the DA team, I'd be a little offended that our fans thought we were morons.

[erynnar]

Morroian wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Ugh here we go again.. Yes 2mil shipped in, as in to retailers, not consumers. In business terms that means to retailers with the ability to send back if they don't sell. 

Is that correct? That would mean they are really just consignment stock. I thought they were actual wholesale sales and if the retailers couldn't sell them the effect would be felt in the next game with fewer advance orders.

ETA OK after reviewing the 2M sales thread publishers may buy back unsold stock but it doesn't always happen and there's no evidence that it has or will happen in this case.

yeah sorry sweetie! I am not trying to ring my own bell. I get no satisfaction nor am I trying to prove my disappointment with DA2 with that. It is to retailers...so far. Like I said, not that it won't make 2 mil. I think the estimate (since only BioWare and EA have the true numbers) is somewhere more like 1.3 to 1.6 mil? Give or take? Math was never my strong suit. I rely on those fans who are statisticians.

Modifié par erynnar, 12 mai 2011 - 03:15 .

[erynnar]

Morroian wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Ugh here we go again.. Yes 2mil shipped in, as in to retailers, not consumers. In business terms that means to retailers with the ability to send back if they don't sell. 

Is that correct? That would mean they are really just consignment stock. I thought they were actual wholesale sales and if the retailers couldn't sell them the effect would be felt in the next game with fewer advance orders.

ETA OK after reviewing the 2M sales thread publishers may buy back unsold stock but it doesn't always happen and there's no evidence that it has or will happen in this case.

And yeah, that doesn't mean the retailers will sell back. I just meant to point out the inaccuracy of that statement and make it clearer. Nothing more, honest.

[OhoniX]

The response from EAware, to this point, has done nothing but exacerbate these feelings of outrage and alienation.

They cannot, or will not, admit they have made a big mistake.

I think that this would be the crux of why your argument fails, because it hinges on the flawed logic that EA/Bioware did make a mistake with DA2, when in fact that is not for you to decide. If their goal was to make you the biggest fan of DA2 ever, then clearly they screwed up somewhere, but I doubt that was their intent. If their goal was to just make a great game, then I don't think they made any major mistakes. There were a lot of things they could have done differently, like reusing exact dungeon models as often, and toning down the waves a bit, but a lot of the changes they made between DAO and DA2 were improvements, or at most neutral in nature, and losing a few people that were resistant to change was pretty much inevitable.

I think that the people who disliked the direction of DA2 could get a lot more traction with their arguments if they would discard the entitled "they owed it to us to make the game we wanted" attitude. They owed you nothing, they made the game they felt they should make, buy it or don't.

Modifié par OhoniX, 12 mai 2011 - 12:20 .

[KilrB]

OhoniX wrote...

The response from EAware, to this point, has done nothing but exacerbate these feelings of outrage and alienation.

They cannot, or will not, admit they have made a big mistake.

I think that this would be the crux of why your argument fails, because it hinges on the flawed logic that EA/Bioware did make a mistake with DA2, when in fact that is not for you to decide. If their goal was to make you the biggest fan of DA2 ever, then clearly they screwed up somewhere, but I doubt that was their intent. If their goal was to just make a great game, then I don't think they made any major mistakes. There were a lot of things they could have done differently, like reusing exact dungeon models as often, and toning down the waves a bit, but a lot of the changes they made between DAO and DA2 were improvements, or at most neutral in nature, and losing a few people that were resistant to change was pretty much inevitable.

I think that the people who disliked the direction of DA2 could get a lot more traction with their arguments if they would discard the entitled "they owed it to us to make the game we wanted" attitude. They owed you nothing, they made the game they felt they should make, buy it or don't.

Wrong.

They owed us this:

Rise To Power...
By Any Means Necessary

Experience the epic sequel to the 2009 Game of the Year from the critically acclaimed makers of Dragon Age: Origins and Mass Effect 2. You are one of the few who escaped the destruction of your home. Now, forced to fight for survival in an ever-changing world, you must gather the deadliest of allies, amass fame and fortune, and seal your place in history. This is the story of how the world changed forever. The legend of your Rise to Power begins now.

Key Features:

    * Embark upon an all-new adventure that takes place across an entire decade and shapes itself around every decision you make.
    * Determine your rise to power from a destitute refugee to the revered champion of the land.
    * Think like a general and fight like a Spartan with dynamic new combat mechanics that put you right in the heart of battle whether you are a mage, rogue, or warrior.
    * Go deeper into the world of Dragon Age with an entirely new cinematic experience that grabs hold of you from the beginning and never lets go.
    * Discover a whole realm rendered in stunning detail with updated graphics and a new visual style.

You know, the game that supposed to be on the DVD ...

[SphereofSilence]

I didn't read everything that was said before in this thread. But without a doubt in my mind, the very best course of action for the DA team is to emulate the process by which Casey Hudson, the executive producer of Mass Effect series, took feedback from the players on ME1 and made MASSIVE improvements across the board for ME2, resulting in the one of the highest rated game for XBox360, in the history of EA/Bioware. It's a simple idea, but I believe one that has proven to be effective if making a great game/franchise is the goal of Bioware.

See, there has been many comments from Bioware employees who has repeatedly said that they cannot please everyone. While this is true, it doesn't inspire confidence in players that they're serious about making a better game, and it may just go to show that they're dismissing what we're complaining about. They have this slight tendency to explain away their decisions and so on so forth. And yes, I'm sure they also have a process to take feedback, but I don't believe they really took it to heart the way the ME team did.

Consider the words of Casey Hudson, on a recent Game Informer interview on ME's feedback loop: 'We always have a pretty extensive process of analyzing feedback. People on the forum don't see me posting in there, but I always read them. If you've made a video on Mass Effect, I've probably seen it. So our fans have a voice that is heard, and it's usually a process that we do - obviously throughout developing the game - but especially for a couple of months after releasing the game to hear what people are saying, and trying to understand it and analyze it. What we don't try to do is to build exactly what people tell us to build because there's not going to be surprise in it. And it's not necessarily what they would want. But what we try to do is - you know all feedback is valid and all feedback is true for that person - and in some way we probably need to address, so we take it very seriously that way. And then we analyze how do we address these in terms of game development so that it doesn't become a piecemeal collection of different solutions, but it still has that kind of elegant simplicity to it. And that's how we kind of build our next game. When we first build Mass Effect 1, the first thing that we did was to take all the feedback that we can find, all the reviews, the forum stuffs. We literally start copying and pasting comments. And so we had like one file that has all positive comments, and another for all critical comments. And then we started categorizing them into like, enemy AI, or graphics or whatever. And that became an almost prioritized list of things that are basically what people in a meta-sense were telling us needed to do different.

...

So we had a list - not specific changes - but 48 categories of changes that we implemented for ME2. We ended up doing all of them. So within each category, there's a few things to change. For example combat was just one category that had a huge list of changes. When you look at the number of players that play, with all the different media to share their feedback, there's a lot of commentary out there, but we still try to mine it. Like I said, every piece of feedback is valid and true for the person giving it, so we take it seriously and analyze them what it means in terms of what we need to resolve in the game.

The victory for us for ME2 was that even though we did made a lot of big changes with the way you play the game, with the way systems were implemented, things like that, in general, on balance, it was extremely well-received, like really better than we could have ever hoped, it's one of the highest rated games of all-time. But that doesn't mean that we don't still look at criticism from fans and feedback, and try to understand how we can still make ME3 better.'

Modifié par SphereofSilence, 12 mai 2011 - 02:22 .

[Everwarden]

OhoniX wrote...
 and losing a few people that were resistant to change was pretty much inevitable. 
 

Are the people who say things like that trolling, or do they actually buy that? Not all change is good, and disliking a bad change (like trading your yummy pepperoni pizza for a dog turd) is not synonymous with disliking -all- change, as Bioware and their shills have been asserting. 

[Persephone]

KilrB wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Awesome is an opinion. Origins was awesome to many gamers to some it was not awesome. DA 2 to some gamers was a good game to others a pile of crap. It all a matter of subjectivity. I sure the next DA game will be the same way. Some will say it is awesome, some will say it is good some will say it does not hold a candle to old school CRPGs. It is not the spiritual successor to BG.

Bioware will put out the game it envisions and we the gamers will decide if it is any good. But no developer can guarantee an awesome game. At best the developer will be happy if it can satisfy most of its audience.
But I guarantee that gamers will be on the forums expressing their praise and damnation about the game.
I remember when many were complaining that DAO is not the spiritual successor to BG. Ah! the more things change the more they stay the same.

True enough, but there are a whole lot of us who are "subjectively disatisfied" with their latest offering.

Add to that the "Let them eat cake" attitude coming from EA/Bioware and it may be time to strike up "La Marseillaise".

Well, just as Marie Antoinette never said "Let them eat cake" to begin with, Bioware did say that they are taking fan feedback into account and they are rather active on the forums too.

But just as Marie Antoinette was judged upon things she never said or did (I.E. incest with her own son), things are blown out of proportion quite a lot around here. (Hyperbole, anyone?)

[aftohsix]

Everwarden wrote...

Are the people who say things like that trolling, or do they actually buy that? Not all change is good, and disliking a bad change (like trading your yummy pepperoni pizza for a dog turd) is not synonymous with disliking -all- change, as Bioware and their shills have been asserting. 

Callling people who have a different opinion than you "shills" is trolling too.  Wittle timmy.

[Chromie]

Bioware should clone Casey Hudson. Make the clone work on the next DA:O great job with Kotor which more comparable to DA:O but also a great job with Mass Effect so far.

[Persephone]

Everwarden wrote...

OhoniX wrote...
 and losing a few people that were resistant to change was pretty much inevitable. 
 

Are the people who say things like that trolling, or do they actually buy that? Not all change is good, and disliking a bad change (like trading your yummy pepperoni pizza for a dog turd) is not synonymous with disliking -all- change, as Bioware and their shills have been asserting. 

So you're saying everyone who liked the changes either works for Bioware or is a shill?

And I thought we were past such ludicrous insulting claims.

[KilrB]

Persephone wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

OhoniX wrote...
 and losing a few people that were resistant to change was pretty much inevitable. 
 

Are the people who say things like that trolling, or do they actually buy that? Not all change is good, and disliking a bad change (like trading your yummy pepperoni pizza for a dog turd) is not synonymous with disliking -all- change, as Bioware and their shills have been asserting. 

So you're saying everyone who liked the changes either works for Bioware or is a shill?

And I thought we were past such ludicrous insulting claims.

Agreed, let's try to keep it civil please.

Yes ... me too.

Edit:

Just because we diagree doesn't mean we must be disagreeable.

Modifié par KilrB, 12 mai 2011 - 03:40 .

[OhoniX]

Rise To Power...
By Any Means Necessary

Experience the epic sequel to the 2009 Game of the Year from the critically acclaimed makers of Dragon Age: Origins and Mass Effect 2. You are one of the few who escaped the destruction of your home. Now, forced to fight for survival in an ever-changing world, you must gather the deadliest of allies, amass fame and fortune, and seal your place in history. This is the story of how the world changed forever. The legend of your Rise to Power begins now.

Key Features:

* Embark upon an all-new adventure that takes place across an entire decade and shapes itself around every decision you make.
* Determine your rise to power from a destitute refugee to the revered champion of the land.
* Think like a general and fight like a Spartan with dynamic new combat mechanics that put you right in the heart of battle whether you are a mage, rogue, or warrior.
* Go deeper into the world of Dragon Age with an entirely new cinematic experience that grabs hold of you from the beginning and never lets go.
* Discover a whole realm rendered in stunning detail with updated graphics and a new visual style.



You know, the game that supposed to be on the DVD ...

They delivered on those bullet points, at least literally. You may have expected more than they delivered, but they didn't promise it. Ironically, a number of people seem to also be complaining that that did deliver on some of those points, like the "dynamic new combat mechanics that put you right in the heart of battle whether you are a mage, rogue, or warrior."

Are the people who say things like that trolling, or do they actually buy that? Not all change is good, and disliking a bad change (like trading your yummy pepperoni pizza for a dog turd) is not synonymous with disliking -all- change, as Bioware and their shills have been asserting.

But good and bad are subjective terms, and things that you found bad, other people may have found good. Most of the things that most people can agree Bioware did wrong were fairly minor issues, like the quantity of waves in the game, while the big controversial ones, like the existence of the waves themselves, or the fast paced action combat, or the three act, single hero focused storyline, are entirely subjective, and not at all "Right" or "Wrong" on their part.

Some like them, some don't, and if they find evidence that more people disliked a given change than liked it, then they should consider that in shaping DA3 and other future projects, but that doesn't mean that it was a "mistake" to make the game the way they did, and it certainly doesn't mean that they "owe" the players anything other than the game they delivered (well, aside from actual bugs that still need fixing, of course), although we can certainly be appreciative of any changes they make in moving forward.