465 réponses à ce sujet

[Serpieri Nei]

haroldhardluck wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...
All elves were Dalish at one point. What circumstances drove them to live in a city or brought them to Lothering does not detour from the point that Hawke's story does not require him to be human. 

No but it would be a significantly different story if Hawke was an elf due to the social bigotry against elves. In DAO, any elf was also a Warden. Wardens were Wardens first and their race was secondary. In DAO this was made clear in the comments of some characters as to how they were to address the Warden. In DA2 Hawke had no such social status that made his or her race irrelevant. So an elven Hawke or even half elf Hawke would have require substantial changes in parts of the story. The best example is Merrill's comment about moving with Hawke.

In Neverwinter 2, your character could be a yuan ti in places where yuan ti's were killed on sight but no one ever comments on the fact that your character is a yuan ti. So making Hawke something other than human requires doing something more than putting on black face makeup on Hawke.

Harold

Social Bigotry would have no impact on the main quest line in either acts. An elf could still go to the deep roads once he has the 50 gold. The Viscount will still call on the Elf because the Arishok asks for him personally, and the mages and templars would still hate each other.

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 10 mai 2011 - 08:04 .

[haroldhardluck]

Sylvianus wrote...

I still dont see how the quinari could ever have taken the city i mean how many were there on that ship? surely kirkwall has some kind of milatary force that could have dealt with them once they had time to organise . Also it still baffles me how they manage to have somekind of effective millatary force when all there soldiers seem to waltz around half naked.

Welcome in the world of dragon age 2 ! Plotholes !!!!!!!

Varric when he tells his story talk about a hundred qunari become castaways and who landed at Kirkwall. How a hundred qunari who managed somehow to win in a walled city did they really threaten a fortified city ? At least there is less than hundred people in Kirkwall.

Ah yes but no, the circle of mages is expected to raise thousands of mages all by itself.

The journal entries make it clear that the Qunari were militarily superior to humans. They conquered much of Thedas before the Chantry conducted a campaign of genocide against their own people under Qunari rule that made the Qunari decide to make peace. Only the fact that human armies vastly outnumbered Quanri armies enabled the humans to win battles. Only mass use of mages overcame the Qunari advantages in gunpowder artillery.

Also the Qunari started the battle by seizing the Vicount's keep which meant they held the main fortress. Kirkwall may have been a fortrified city but the Qunari were already inside the city walls. That automatically gave them a huge military advantage. Without a superhero like Hawke and his merry band of brothers, the Qunari could have held out long enough for reinforcements to arrive.

Harold

[Serpieri Nei]

Marionetten wrote...

Let's take a look at what would prevent Hawke from being an elf or a dwarf, shall we?

Nobility. The whole point of the first act is to amass money in order to reclaim your mansion, yes? Now, instead of amassing money to reclaim the mansion an elf or a dwarf would simply amass money in order to purchase a mansion along with social status. Problem solved. What, you think it's unlikely that an elf would rise to such prominence? Take it up with the elven Hero of Ferelden. That bugger didn't even have to pay.

Apostate. Now this is certainly a big problem for a dwarf but is the whole apostate thing really such a big deal in Dragon Age II? I'm tempted to say no. NPCs rarely comment on it and the mage status is typically ignored by the game altogether. The whole notion of having to be a magic user or be related to a magic user in order to care about the conflict is nonsensical at best. It's akin to suggesting that you have to be an elf in order to care about their plight. From my perspective this is a non-issue. Hawke's father plays no real part in the game beyond codex entries and minor dialogue lines. The plot of Dragon Age II is about the rise of the Champion. This does not necessitate a magical bloodline any more than the zero to hero plot of Dragon Age: Origins did.

Kirkwall. I'm sure there are some perfectly valid reasons for going there. I mean, the whole city was flooded with refugees at the time of Hawke's arrival, no? Elves, humans and dwarves. I doubt they were all related to nobility. More likely it was probably just a convenient place to go for a whole lot of people. To suggest that this necessitates some massive rewrite... no, not really. You could still keep that friendly Lowtown uncle in the game as an initial hook.

BobSmith101 wrote...

It's cheaper and quicker.

Subsequently, I nominate this as the most likely reason by far.

Well Said,

and being an Apostate or having a sister that is one doesn't impact any of the main quests in either acts. 

As it has been stated earlier, the most likely reason is due to the time/resources needed.

[Serpieri Nei]

haroldhardluck wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...
You'd be suprised by what wealth can accomplish.

Very little actually in established society. That is why nouveau riche is a derogatory term. The Hawkes are an old line nobility who had fallen on hard times but got their wealth back. So The Establishment is welcoming back one of their own rather than taking in a newly raised commoner. That makes a world of difference in how well Hawke is perceived and received.

Harold

Is that why those that are considered  nouveau riche - are still able purchase land, title, and property? Care to explain why they allowed an outcast Dwarf to purchase an estate as well? Or how Danarious, a Tevinter magister aquired one. It's simple, money talks.

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 10 mai 2011 - 08:18 .

[Sylvianus]

haroldhardluck wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

I still dont see how the quinari could ever have taken the city i mean how many were there on that ship? surely kirkwall has some kind of milatary force that could have dealt with them once they had time to organise . Also it still baffles me how they manage to have somekind of effective millatary force when all there soldiers seem to waltz around half naked.

Welcome in the world of dragon age 2 ! Plotholes !!!!!!!

Varric when he tells his story talk about a hundred qunari become castaways and who landed at Kirkwall. How a hundred qunari who managed somehow to win in a walled city did they really threaten a fortified city ? At least there is less than hundred people in Kirkwall.

Ah yes but no, the circle of mages is expected to raise thousands of mages all by itself.

The journal entries make it clear that the Qunari were militarily superior to humans. They conquered much of Thedas before the Chantry conducted a campaign of genocide against their own people under Qunari rule that made the Qunari decide to make peace. Only the fact that human armies vastly outnumbered Quanri armies enabled the humans to win battles. Only mass use of mages overcame the Qunari advantages in gunpowder artillery.

Also the Qunari started the battle by seizing the Vicount's keep which meant they held the main fortress. Kirkwall may have been a fortrified city but the Qunari were already inside the city walls. That automatically gave them a huge military advantage. Without a superhero like Hawke and his merry band of brothers, the Qunari could have held out long enough for reinforcements to arrive.

Harold

Mages of Kirkwall are the most powerful in Thedas,  Templars of Kirkwall are among the most powerful in Eastern Thedas. There are thousands, the two combined. The small number of qunari  is destroyed in an instant.

Mages and the Templars were allies at that time. Kirkwall has already postponed  some invasions by itself. It is not logical, a hundred qunari can not take control of the lower city, the upper town and the fortress at the same time, even if they take advantage with the surprise. There are too numerous people and qunari are unable to control the city, except the fortress where is the viscount.

Qunari had their artillery during war, their vessels that could swing the jets of lightning, and poison. They had all their equipment. They had nothing like that. They were shipwrecked, they hadn't their equipment, that they have certainly lost in the sinking of their boat. It's not for nothing that most are bare torsos.

Qunari would have resisted  only one night when it takes days for Par vollen or rather many weeks to mobilize first his army  and then make the trip to Kirkwall.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 10 mai 2011 - 08:37 .

[element eater]

haroldhardluck wrote...

Also the Qunari started the battle by seizing the Vicount's keep which meant they held the main fortress. Kirkwall may have been a fortrified city but the Qunari were already inside the city walls. That automatically gave them a huge military advantage. Without a superhero like Hawke and his merry band of brothers, the Qunari could have held out long enough for reinforcements to arrive.

nah i dont believe it if they had lockedown  the keep they could survive a while but seeing as they hadnt i dont think they could have held and even if they had theres more then likely enough resources in kirkwall to over come the keep pretty quickly anyway especialy if they only had like 20 people inside. The whole quanari attack on kirkwall just wouldnt work. theres no way i can even see how it might be possible at best they would be held up in the keep for a while they just dont have the resources to realy achieve much more. 

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

jsh788mang wrote...

Human made the only real sense compared to story line and where they were trying to take the story.(can't say anymore due to no spoiler) I'm sure time was a factor as well. I to miss race and class selections in the game. It made the replayability much higher. Lets hope it dose return in the third installment. Oh and Griffins!

This. large chunks of the story would have to be completely changed to account for multiple backgrounds.

[MyKingdomCold]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Marionetten wrote...

Let's take a look at what would prevent Hawke from being an elf or a dwarf, shall we?

Nobility. The whole point of the first act is to amass money in order to reclaim your mansion, yes? Now, instead of amassing money to reclaim the mansion an elf or a dwarf would simply amass money in order to purchase a mansion along with social status. Problem solved. What, you think it's unlikely that an elf would rise to such prominence? Take it up with the elven Hero of Ferelden. That bugger didn't even have to pay.

Apostate. Now this is certainly a big problem for a dwarf but is the whole apostate thing really such a big deal in Dragon Age II? I'm tempted to say no. NPCs rarely comment on it and the mage status is typically ignored by the game altogether. The whole notion of having to be a magic user or be related to a magic user in order to care about the conflict is nonsensical at best. It's akin to suggesting that you have to be an elf in order to care about their plight. From my perspective this is a non-issue. Hawke's father plays no real part in the game beyond codex entries and minor dialogue lines. The plot of Dragon Age II is about the rise of the Champion. This does not necessitate a magical bloodline any more than the zero to hero plot of Dragon Age: Origins did.

Kirkwall. I'm sure there are some perfectly valid reasons for going there. I mean, the whole city was flooded with refugees at the time of Hawke's arrival, no? Elves, humans and dwarves. I doubt they were all related to nobility. More likely it was probably just a convenient place to go for a whole lot of people. To suggest that this necessitates some massive rewrite... no, not really. You could still keep that friendly Lowtown uncle in the game as an initial hook.

BobSmith101 wrote...

It's cheaper and quicker.

Subsequently, I nominate this as the most likely reason by far.

Well Said,

and being an Apostate or having a sister that is one doesn't impact any of the main quests in either acts. 

As it has been stated earlier, the most likely reason is due to the time/resources needed.

it doesn't matter how much of an impact it has on the main quest or anything. it's still part of the story.  Take it out and it's a different story. So, however minor a role you may think it has in the story, it's still there.  Change it and it wouldn't be DA2's story.

Same thing with being from a noble background, however minor a role you may think it has in the story, it's still there. Take it out and it wouldn't be the same story.

Modifié par MyKingdomCold, 10 mai 2011 - 10:51 .

[Serpieri Nei]

MyKingdomCold wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Marionetten wrote...

Let's take a look at what would prevent Hawke from being an elf or a dwarf, shall we?

Nobility. The whole point of the first act is to amass money in order to reclaim your mansion, yes? Now, instead of amassing money to reclaim the mansion an elf or a dwarf would simply amass money in order to purchase a mansion along with social status. Problem solved. What, you think it's unlikely that an elf would rise to such prominence? Take it up with the elven Hero of Ferelden. That bugger didn't even have to pay.

Apostate. Now this is certainly a big problem for a dwarf but is the whole apostate thing really such a big deal in Dragon Age II? I'm tempted to say no. NPCs rarely comment on it and the mage status is typically ignored by the game altogether. The whole notion of having to be a magic user or be related to a magic user in order to care about the conflict is nonsensical at best. It's akin to suggesting that you have to be an elf in order to care about their plight. From my perspective this is a non-issue. Hawke's father plays no real part in the game beyond codex entries and minor dialogue lines. The plot of Dragon Age II is about the rise of the Champion. This does not necessitate a magical bloodline any more than the zero to hero plot of Dragon Age: Origins did.

Kirkwall. I'm sure there are some perfectly valid reasons for going there. I mean, the whole city was flooded with refugees at the time of Hawke's arrival, no? Elves, humans and dwarves. I doubt they were all related to nobility. More likely it was probably just a convenient place to go for a whole lot of people. To suggest that this necessitates some massive rewrite... no, not really. You could still keep that friendly Lowtown uncle in the game as an initial hook.

BobSmith101 wrote...

It's cheaper and quicker.

Subsequently, I nominate this as the most likely reason by far.

Well Said,

and being an Apostate or having a sister that is one doesn't impact any of the main quests in either acts. 

As it has been stated earlier, the most likely reason is due to the time/resources needed.

it doesn't matter how much of an impact it has on the main quest or anything. it's still part of the story.  Take it out and it's a different story. So, however minor a role you may think it has in the story, it's still there.  Change it and it wouldn't be DA2's story.

Same thing with being from a noble background, however minor a role you may think it has in the story, it's still there. Take it out and it wouldn't be the same story.

Would you like me to post for you all the main quests in ACT I, II, III - which are part of the main story? And I will even show you were blood or nor does title affect DA2 story which is....


"You are one of the few who escaped the destruction of your home. Now, forced to fight for survival in an ever-changing world, you must gather the deadliest of allies, amass fame and fortune, and seal your place in history. This is the story of how the world changed forever. The legend of your Rise to Power begins now."

[TJSolo]

MyKingdomCold wrote...


it doesn't matter how much of an impact it has on the main quest or anything. it's still part of the story.  Take it out and it's a different story. So, however minor a role you may think it has in the story, it's still there.  Change it and it wouldn't be DA2's story.

Same thing with being from a noble background, however minor a role you may think it has in the story, it's still there. Take it out and it wouldn't be the same story.

Yes it would still be the same 'rags to riches' story. Being a Human Noble is about as intregral to the DA2 story as it is to the DAO story. Of course since there is only one race in DA2 it can be hard for some people to grasp that Hawke's bloodline, siblings, and background are just variables to the story. Come now. Humans, dwarves, and elves can all be refugees from from Ferelden. Dwarves and elves would just need different plot devices to fit into the story but they fit the 'rags to riches' story of DA2 just fine.

Modifié par TJSolo, 11 mai 2011 - 01:30 .

[Anyroad2]

'Rags to Riches' is only the story of Act 1. In Act 2 Hawke is wealthy.

I remember that while trying to get into Kirkwall, that there was a very strong "No More Fereldens" theme going on. This was an issue for human Hawke, so much of a problem that Hawke and Sibling had to commit to do dangerous work for a crimal for an entire year, no matter what. I can't imagine how hard it would be for a Ferelden Elf ( the most looked down upon race in all of Thedas ) to get in.

Modifié par Anyroad2, 11 mai 2011 - 01:50 .

[Serpieri Nei]

Anyroad2 wrote...

'Rags to Riches' is only the story of Act 1. In Act 2 Hawke is wealthy.

I remember that while trying to get into Kirkwall, that there was a very strong "No More Fereldens" theme going on. This was an issue for human Hawke, so much of a problem that Hawke and Sibling had to commit to do dangerous work for a crimal for an entire year, no matter what. I can't imagine how hard it would be for a Ferelden Elf ( the most looked down upon race in all of Thedas ) to get in.

An elf or dwarf would go the same route as a human - work for the mercenary or work for the smuggler - remember the smuggler was an ELF.

[Chiramu]

If Bioware did that then we would have the same non-speaking hero as before.

It all comes down to MONEY.
Time to a lesser extent, but money is the big issue.

I'm fine with Hawke being human, don't know why this would be an issue.

[TJSolo]

Anyroad2 wrote...

'Rags to Riches' is only the story of Act 1. In Act 2 Hawke is wealthy.

I remember that while trying to get into Kirkwall, that there was a very strong "No More Fereldens" theme going on. This was an issue for human Hawke, so much of a problem that Hawke and Sibling had to commit to do dangerous work for a crimal for an entire year, no matter what. I can't imagine how hard it would be for a Ferelden Elf ( the most looked down upon race in all of Thedas ) to get in.

Dwarves and Elves can also be Fereldens and is not a human Hawke only issue. Getting into the city meant signing up with some faction to work under for a year; last I saw in DA2 one of the faction contacts was an Elf and there were various gangs in place that employed Dwarves, the Carta is even present in Kirkwall.

The only issue is how a dwarf or elf refugee would be able to contact someone from those various groups.
If a dalish elf and 2 tervinter slave elves can get into Kirkwall I am sure some plot device could explain who introduced the player character to the one of the available factions.

After entering Kirkwall it is just a matter of earning gold for the Deep Roads, races has nothing to do that, and making an acquaintance with the Arishock who seems willing to talk to anyone regardless of race. At the start of Act 2 you will have money,  be deemed able by the Arishock and be ready to deal with the coming year. Race is not important.

I'm fine with Hawke being human, don't know why this would be an issue.

Right it is fine for YOU but how hard is it to imagine that someone other than you would like the option to play as another race since a precedent was set in the first game? Read the 10 pages here there are plenty of why this is an issue for some.

Modifié par TJSolo, 11 mai 2011 - 02:35 .

[Zanallen]

For the story as it was told, Hawke had to be human. It makes the most sense for the story as is. If you alter the story, then yes Hawke could be an elf or a dwarf. Hell, Hawke could have been the freakin' Arishok if you altered the story enough. But the real reason is probably due to budget and time constraints. They would need more voice assets, alternate quests, etc.

[TJSolo]

Zanallen wrote...

For the story as it was told, Hawke had to be human. It makes the most sense for the story as is. If you alter the story, then yes Hawke could be an elf or a dwarf. Hell, Hawke could have been the freakin' Arishok if you altered the story enough. But the real reason is probably due to budget and time constraints. They would need more voice assets, alternate quests, etc.

Don't be absurd. All that needed to be explained was how the player character got to Kirkwall and how the player will get into Kirkwall. Everything else are variables that don't change the story to the degree you are hinting at.

Modifié par TJSolo, 11 mai 2011 - 02:38 .

[Zanallen]

TJSolo wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

For the story as it was told, Hawke had to be human. It makes the most sense for the story as is. If you alter the story, then yes Hawke could be an elf or a dwarf. Hell, Hawke could have been the freakin' Arishok if you altered the story enough. But the real reason is probably due to budget and time constraints. They would need more voice assets, alternate quests, etc.

Don't be absurd. All that needed to be explained was how the player character got to Kirkwall and how the player will get into Kirkwall. Everything else are variables that don't change the story to the degree you are hinting at.

The way the current story is set up is that either Hawke or Bethany is a mage. This draws the player into the supposed central conflict of the plot. Without this connection, you would need another hook and thus would have to change the story. Dwarves cannot be mages. That cuts that out right there. Elves are still good.

Kirkwall is a city known for its past enslavement of the elves. Personally, I don't think any elf will want to flee there. If one were to, I highly doubt the people of Hightown would stand for an elf buying his way into their society, Even if one did, they still wouldn't be a noble and still wouldn't have an effect on Kirkwall politics to any extent. Basically, no one would care what an elf thought. This would have to be changed. Dwarves have no such stigma and, despite being an upworlder, would probably not have much of an issue.

So...Humans are the easiest fit into the current story.

[neppakyo]

It doesn't matter if you're a mage or its just your sister. Thats more along the lines of a personal background. It centered more on meeting anders and his views on the mage/templar friction. hawke being a mage, or hawke a warrior/rogue with your sister as a mage doesn't matter to the plot.

[Zanallen]

neppakyo wrote...

It doesn't matter if you're a mage or its just your sister. Thats more along the lines of a personal background. It centered more on meeting anders and his views on the mage/templar friction. hawke being a mage, or hawke a warrior/rogue with your sister as a mage doesn't matter to the plot.

So you could be a dwarf...The least played of the DA:O races. Awesome. Of course, I already said what I believe to be the real reason: Lack of time and money.

[neppakyo]

Zanallen wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

It doesn't matter if you're a mage or its just your sister. Thats more along the lines of a personal background. It centered more on meeting anders and his views on the mage/templar friction. hawke being a mage, or hawke a warrior/rogue with your sister as a mage doesn't matter to the plot.

So you could be a dwarf...The least played of the DA:O races. Awesome. Of course, I already said what I believe to be the real reason: Lack of time and money.

I'm not sure if that was the original point or not. But I do agree with that, time and money. If they didn't overhaul and reboot everything, I'm sure they would of had the time to impliment it. Probably not, but a good chance they could of.

Then the other argument on the story having to be human, I thought you were wrong. It didn't matter what race you were, the plot/story was about varric and anders anyways 

Modifié par neppakyo, 11 mai 2011 - 03:03 .

[TJSolo]

An emotional hook could be written for a dwarf and elf in order to draw the player in and changing the hooks don't alter the plot of the game.

What you personally think about where elves would run to is irrelevant seeing that elves runaway from their home alienages in search of greener pastures and there was added motivation from there being a blight. Plus there are 2 to 3 elves in the DA2 that do in fact flee to Kirkwall because of their current situation.
An elf can buy a house and title and still be somewhat rejected by high class society in act 2 but by the time act 3 rolls around that elf would be the Champion of Kirkwall.

Unless you think for some inane reason that an elf would not be able to finish Act 2. The fame the player gets by the end of act 2 is all from their actions and has nothing to do with being human. Your quibbling about difficultes other races have in Thedas is moot since heroism is rewarded not matter the race, see DAO.

Modifié par TJSolo, 11 mai 2011 - 03:12 .

[Zanallen]

TJSolo wrote...

An emotional hook could be written for a dwarf and elf in order to draw the player in and changing the hooks don't alter the plot of the game.

What you personally think about where elves would run to is irrelevant seeing that elves runaway from their home alienages in search of greener pastures and there was added motivation from there being a blight. Plus there are 2 to 3 elves in the DA2 that do in fact flee to Kirkwall because of their current situation.
An elf can buy a house and title and still be somewhat rejected by high class society in act 2 but by the time act 3 rolls around that elf would be the Champion of Kirkwall.

Unless you think for some inane reason that an elf would not be able to finish Act 2. The fame the player gets by the end of act 2 is all from their actions and has nothing to do with being human. Your quibbling about difficultes other races have in Thedas is moot since heroism is rewarded not matter the race, see DAO.

Can an elf buy a mansion? Elves are barely tolerated in most cities and, according to the codex, elves who live outside the alienage are frequently robbed and their homes are burned down. Also, you can't just buy a title. It has to be given. Meaning that it has to be agreed upon. I'm pretty sure that anyone who would agree to self an elf a title would be an outcast within noble society.

[CerealWar]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

They wanted to tell their plot-hole ridden story that way. Oh and, considering how the elves look in this one, I would probably not play as an elf.

I hate to break this to you, but all of the elves in Origins looked ugly. If they didn't look like middle age alcoholics, they looked like anorexic scarecrows. Their chins were way too long on half of the male characters, and they ALL had exagerated jowls. Except Zevran. Poor Zevran. And then we have a character like Velanna. Other characters actually commented on how she was good looking. Awakening was a mess. Currently, elves have no crease at the tops of their bridges. It's not a bad look. The only elf that looks like a cat/ naavi person is Keeper Marethari.

[TJSolo]

Can an elf buy a mansion? Elves are barely tolerated in most cities and, according to the codex, elves who live outside the alienage are frequently robbed and their homes are burned down. Also, you can't just buy a title. It has to be given. Meaning that it has to be agreed upon. I'm pretty sure that anyone who would agree to self an elf a title would be an outcast within noble society.

From the looks of the codex there's no rule against elves buying homes, a mansion is just bigger. All player characters can become an Arl over nobles in Awakenings and a city elf at the end of DAO can become a Bann, yes? So there you go.If the player puts in enough effort even an elf can find a place in society. If it upsets some members of society so be it, consequences can be fun side quests.

Modifié par TJSolo, 11 mai 2011 - 03:54 .

[Satyricon331]

Gameplay-storyline integration could hardly be BW's reason to exclude elves and dwarves as player races in *DA2* of all games, especially since the gameplay-story separation that would happen would be marginal at most. And tweaking the story slightly (as others have already explained) would eliminate even that separation. (It's not as if the story is so flawless it could brook no improvement.) I've written before, I think the story elements they used to explain why we can't play dwarves and elves are so minor that those elements are more plausibly there simply to justify the exclusion of those other races, which BW likely did just for resource reasons. I guess it'd be understandable (not that I like it), but if DA3 has a longer development cycle then it won't be.