465 réponses à ce sujet

[Angarma]

topster88 wrote...

What, they couldn't come up with two other character models for each of his/her family for a dwarf/elf Hawke? They couldn't have recorded race-specific lines that otherwise refered to Hawke as a human or simply made the lines that refer to his/her race ambiguous? Hawke's  background isn't even human-specific; in DA1 we see elves and dwarves living in Lothering, and Fenris lives in Hightown for years without anyone bothering him about being an elf.

I mean, yeah, the excuse BW feeds us for practically every fault this game has is how they had a year and a half to make this game, but none of this seems to be a question of time, but rather a case of them arbitrarily making the decision to remove that much more individuality from created characters and flavor.

Brent Knowles:

Not choosing race is a Very Bad Thing and has everything to do with
cinematic limitations — characters with different heights and sizes are
difficult to build cinematic conversation for — as well the choice
impacts the amount of dialog that needs to be written. But aliens and
fantasy races are cool. Humans are boring (except my kids and my wife and some of you… you know who you are).

blog.brentknowles.com/2011/03/14/dragon-age-2-demo/

And don't forget to blame David Gaider + EA for this other missing feature from Dragon Age: Origins sequel. <_<

Modifié par Dodok, 11 mai 2011 - 04:34 .

[Zanallen]

TJSolo wrote...

From the looks of the codex there's no rule against elves buying homes, a mansion is just bigger. All player characters can become an Arl over nobles in Awakenings and a city elf at the end of DAO can become a Bann, yes? So there you go.If the player puts in enough effort even an elf can find a place in society. If it upsets some members of society so be it, consequences can be fun side quests.

The Hero of Ferelden is not just some elf who lucked into a bit of treasure. Nor is Denerim a city built on decades of elven slavery.

[TJSolo]

Well in DA2 the player character did not luck into a bit of treasure either. The amount made was supposedly substantial and DA2 emphasized the importance of becoming rich as part of the rags to riches tale. I am not sure why you trying to downplay part of the selling points of DA2 and play up historical facts about the tervinters in a city that has seen more than its fair share of subjugation. There is no political structure in Kirkwall preventing an elf from achieving a higher place in society than houseboy.

So far I have covered with examples that all races can become rich,achieve some level of nobility without having gamestoping riots from enraged noble humans, and acquire enough racially independent heroic-clout after act 2 to meddle in the political affairs in act 3.

Modifié par TJSolo, 11 mai 2011 - 05:36 .

[Relshar]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Hawke did not need to be human. In fact, Hawke did not even have to exist and the events of Dragon Age 2 would have still unfolded.

This, the in game events would of unfolded in the same way anyway so there was no reason to only have a human character.

[haroldhardluck]

Serpieri Nei wrote...
Is that why those that are considered  nouveau riche - are still able purchase land, title, and property? Care to explain why they allowed an outcast Dwarf to purchase an estate as well? Or how Danarious, a Tevinter magister aquired one. It's simple, money talks.

Buying an estate only takes money but gaining entry into the Vicount's office takes more than money. The conversation you over hear while in the keep makes it clear that not just anyone can waltz in and see the vicount. Without his family history Hawke would not have been accepted into Kirkwall high society no matter how much money he had and would not have been invited by the vicount to help with the qunari problem. Varric is as rich as Hawke but he was not invited by the vicount to help. According to Varric's narrative, it is only Hawke who becomes rich and influential.


Harold

[haroldhardluck]

neppakyo wrote...
It doesn't matter if you're a mage or its just your sister. Thats more along the lines of a personal background. It centered more on meeting anders and his views on the mage/templar friction. hawke being a mage, or hawke a warrior/rogue with your sister as a mage doesn't matter to the plot.

The confrontation between the mages and templars was already underway before Anders blows up the Chantry. It was Meredith's actions and not Anders that creates the conflict that leads to the confrontation. Merredith's actions were possible only because the vicount was killed by the qunari and Hawke saved the city from the qunari. Without the death of the vicount, there would be no power vacuum for Meredith to exploit. Without the defeat of the qunari, there would be no Chantry left in Kirkwall. All Anders accomplished was to make a peaceful recounciliation impossible but the odds of that was near zero anyway. So in the end, Anders' action were futile. He killed all those people in the Chantry for nothing.

Harold

[haroldhardluck]

Sylvianus wrote...
Qunari would have resisted  only one night when it takes days for Par vollen or rather many weeks to mobilize first his army  and then make the trip to Kirkwall.

This is pure speculation that is contradicted by the game lore that the qunaris were formidable foes. It also flies in the face of actual sieges in history where a small number of defenders could hold off 10 times the number of besiegers for months. It took the Turks over 2 months to take Constantinople and they literally had 10 times the numbers. The qunari held the vicount's keep. They had clearly planned the attack for months. They were prepared. Only Hawke's small band were able to gain entry into the keep once the qunari took it. This is inline with actual history where forts were taken more by treachery than assault.

So actual siege history indicates the qunari could have held the keep for months, more than the time you speculate it would take for qunari reinforcements to arrive. Which means that if Hawke and his small band had not snuck into the keep to confront the Arishok, the qunari could have won and there would have been no mage/templar conflict for act 3 and not chantry left for Anders to destroy. Given the qunari attitude towards mages, Anders would have been hunted down and killed by the qunaris.

Harold

[Serpieri Nei]

haroldhardluck wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...
Is that why those that are considered  nouveau riche - are still able purchase land, title, and property? Care to explain why they allowed an outcast Dwarf to purchase an estate as well? Or how Danarious, a Tevinter magister aquired one. It's simple, money talks.

Buying an estate only takes money but gaining entry into the Vicount's office takes more than money. The conversation you over hear while in the keep makes it clear that not just anyone can waltz in and see the vicount. Without his family history Hawke would not have been accepted into Kirkwall high society no matter how much money he had and would not have been invited by the vicount to help with the qunari problem. Varric is as rich as Hawke but he was not invited by the vicount to help. According to Varric's narrative, it is only Hawke who becomes rich and influential.

Harold

You are right the Viscount is a busy man, and has to run a city. And real estate is below his status. Properties are sold by those that hold the deed to them. So at the completion of ACT 1, regardless of Elf, Dwarf, or human you have a large sum of money used to buy a manor.  Let me refresh your memory, Hawke did not petition to see the Viscount. The Viscount sent for him because of his dealings with the Qunari, the Arishok asked for him by name. If you have truly forgotten this, I suggest you look up Blackpower Promise and Shepherding Wolves. 

I'm curious why your bringing Varric into this when he has nothing to do with anything that is being discussed here. You must have gotten the dwarves mixed up, it was Varric's brother Bartrand who bought the manor. And no one really knows how much of the share was actually split among Hawke's companion. Most likely none since Varric and Isabela lived in the tavern and couldn't even afford to buy new clothes. And poor Anders probably gave it all to the poor. While Merril lost it all in a game of Shells. Sebestian would of given it to the chantry and Aveline most likely bought new weapons and armor for her staff.

So once again it has been proven that Hawke's family history played no real part in the story of DA2. Do you even know who owned the manor before Hawke did? It was a slaver who beat Gamlen at Dice. Isn't Hightown full of classy people, lets see they have had slave traders, an Outcast Dwarf, and a Tevinter magister living among them so far. Oh and let's not forgot about a certain elf squatter.


For those that may have missed it - This is the Story of DA2

You are one of the few who escaped the destruction of your home. Now, forced to fight for survival in an ever-changing world, you must gather the deadliest of allies, amass fame and fortune, and seal your place in history. This is the story of how the world changed forever. The legend of your Rise to Power begins now.

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 11 mai 2011 - 07:30 .

[Satyricon331]

Again, I don't see how people can say BW would have gameplay-storyline integration as its reason for excluding playable-race choices even if the story is such that those choices would result in some separation.  The real reason is obviously just resources.

[Serpieri Nei]

Satyricon331 wrote...

Again, I don't see how people can say BW would have gameplay-storyline integration as its reason for excluding playable-race choices even if the story is such that those choices would result in some separation.  The real reason is obviously just resources.

That is the most plausible reason. 

[Phaedros]

Exactly.

Because it required a lot less work.

[Sylvianus]

haroldhardluck wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
Qunari would have resisted  only one night when it takes days for Par vollen or rather many weeks to mobilize first his army  and then make the trip to Kirkwall.

This is pure speculation that is contradicted by the game lore that the qunaris were formidable foes. It also flies in the face of actual sieges in history where a small number of defenders could hold off 10 times the number of besiegers for months. It took the Turks over 2 months to take Constantinople and they literally had 10 times the numbers. The qunari held the vicount's keep. They had clearly planned the attack for months. They were prepared. Only Hawke's small band were able to gain entry into the keep once the qunari took it. This is inline with actual history where forts were taken more by treachery than assault.

So actual siege history indicates the qunari could have held the keep for months, more than the time you speculate it would take for qunari reinforcements to arrive. Which means that if Hawke and his small band had not snuck into the keep to confront the Arishok, the qunari could have won and there would have been no mage/templar conflict for act 3 and not chantry left for Anders to destroy. Given the qunari attitude towards mages, Anders would have been hunted down and killed by the qunaris.

Harold

Sorry, this is not speculation.

Kirkwall has guards in Lowertown, and also in the Upper Town. And in the fortress. The small number of qunari would never have reached the high place, facing hundreds of guards across Kirkwall unless it went quickly as commando. What has not been the case, we see a lot of qunari walk in the upper town and do what they want.

  they decided to attack without hiding, there was ample time to stop them.

No it was never mentioned in the codex that  a hundred qunari could beat  thousands of people. Remain reasonable, thank you. And under-equipped Qunari are not stronger than heavily armed soldiers.

The Templars + Guard + the circle. Who are we kidding there?

I still do not see how you can say that this is speculation. in this case say they have received reinforcements, this is speculation as well.

The sea separates Par Vollen from Kirkwall, and qunari had no means of communication. Magic ? But of course....

Reinforcements could be misappropriated by a storm, or destroyed, nothing was guaranteed for their little operation.

The castaways qunari are not returned home since they lost their relic many years ago. In view of their shame, Arishok failed to contact Par Vollen without perjury.  That's why he has not returned home and he has not contacted anyone, otherwise he would have done for years.
Yes, the process is incredible and the story makes no sense. Why talk about a hundred Qunari ? That's the threat evoked by the viscount all this time ? What a joke.

The scenes shown Qunari to be master of much of Kirkwall, the troops of Meredith, guards, and the most powerful circle of Thedas, were completely offside. Yes, there is something wrong with that.

Clients account. How qunari in the lower city that kills? How in the high city ? How much do they remain in the fortress? How many died in battle ?

For a hundred Qunari, it should not remain many people ........

I'm not buy it.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 11 mai 2011 - 09:41 .

[Gabey5]

no it would have been like origins were no one ever acknowledged your race

[Serpieri Nei]

Gabey5 wrote...

no it would have been like origins were no one ever acknowledged your race

Incorrect, your race is acknowledged. Try again please.

On top of that, you seem to be confused. This thread title is 

Why did Hawke need to be a human, exactly? 

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 11 mai 2011 - 03:15 .

[MyKingdomCold]

yes, your race was acknowledged, but it was acknowledged rarely.

if you were an elf, Morrigan asked about how elves weren't little boys, Flemeth asked about your elven mind, you were discriminated against twice in Ostagar, maybe the Dalish said something, and some dwarves in Ostagar said something.

so let's say DA Origins was a 50 hour game, maybe you heard you were an elf less than 1/2 hour in the whole game.

Oh wait I edited this post because I forgot to add 10 minutes!  Sten, Ser Jory, and Leliana also talk about how you're an elf.

Modifié par MyKingdomCold, 11 mai 2011 - 03:24 .

[Drasanil]

MyKingdomCold wrote...

yes, your race was acknowledged, but it was acknowledged rarely.

if you were an elf, Morrigan asked about how elves weren't little boys, Flemeth asked about your elven mind, you were discriminated against twice in Ostagar, maybe the Dalish said something, and some dwarves in Ostagar said something.

so let's say DA Origins was a 50 hour game, maybe you heard you were an elf less than 1/2 hour in the whole game.

Oh wait I edited this post because I forgot to add 10 minutes!  Sten, Ser Jory, and Leliana also talk about how you're an elf.

Sounds about right... it's not like if people had nothing better to do than run around pointing out you were an elf or dwarf all day long just because you decided to play one. Kind of like no one really takes the time IRL pointing out you're black, white, asian or hespanic every time you meet them.

As for why you couldn't play an elf or  a dwarf, it's really cause it was less work, there are so few plot points that rely on Hawke being human that it would have only taken some minor tweaking to make things work.

Act 0) Escaping Lothering/the Blight... you don't need to be human to know it's a good idea.

-Getting in the city, you're uncle would still have shady contacts and got them to pya for entry... no problems there. Especially since the smugglers are elves themselves.

Act 1) Expedition, you'd need money regardless of race, the thing would still happen that influences later events no problems.

Act 2) The Mansion... really? Fenris was squatting in a Manor for 3 years at that point and no one in power bothered to evict him and sell the property some one for money? Dwarf/Elf Hawke could have bought one, or if that don't jive, a minor tweak is Elf-Hawke could have been Haren of the Alienage instead, still makes him important while "keeping him in his place", plus there really weren't any "mansion quests" it was just a graphical upgrade for your storage chest and letter desk. Dwarf-Hawke could have still bought one.

-The Qunari... it's not the viscount that thinks Hawke is oh so awesome... it's the Arishok and we already know the Qunari don't really care about race, at least not in the same way humans do.

-All that remains, works with an elf as is, could have just been hunting hawte elfesses instead of humanses, for dwarves some minor tweaking to make him crazy in a different way like trying to extract dwarf blood to make super lyrium or create new golems, either way it's still pretty bad.

-Oh noes an elf/dwarf champion... it's just a name that comes with no power and some influence and a recognition that you saved the city by beating the Arishok, once again has nothing to do with Hawke's lineage. A dwarf wouldn't have problems, and even an elf wouldn't if you went the Haren route given he'd have a large backing of his own. They're not nobles but it wouldn't mean they're with out influence.

Act 3) The templar/mage thing, works just fine for elf Hawke. For dwarf Hawke some minor tweaking, who cares if you don't have a mage sibling? Your family could be under threat for lyrium smuggling and anti-templar with Betha-dwarf or could support the templars with Carver-dwarf providing them mage-free enchantment services, plus we already know dwarves have no particular loyalty to either the chantry or mages making you reasons for picking a side even more personal.

-Becoming viscount, really doesn't do much it's an achievement rank and if you make certain decisions it doesn't even happen. It's not even important given we know Hawke still packs up and leaves and after becoming viscount... which makes even less sense, when was the last time you saw some one who owned their own city-state just give up everything and going on adventure? Could be substituted with becoming chancellor/vizier for elf/dwarf Hawke, which would at least give him a plausible reason to pack up and go afterwords.

If anything and I hate to say this because it's my favourite class but Bioware should have cut out the option to play a mage and kept the race options. There are far more plot holes and dialogue problems with mage Hawke than there ever would have been with a dwarf-Hawke or an elf-Hawke.

[MyKingdomCold]

I wasn't just talking about other people talking about your race in Origins. Even though that's important. the races seem to be different from our races and being acknowledged as black, white, Asian...
I mean aren't the Dalish thought of as savages or something? Yet, my Dalish warden could walk around like a normal person. In Ostagar, when that priest asked if you wanted a blessing, you had to say that you were Dalish before she noticed. What, my Dalish tatoos didn't give it away?

They could have had race specific specs or talents. For example, Dalish are supposed to be really good archers. why not give them more/exclusive archer talents? Dwarves could've been better fighters underground. On the surface, maybe they would suffer. The whole "I might fall into the sky" thing.

[Curlain]

MyKingdomCold wrote...

yes, your race was acknowledged, but it was acknowledged rarely.

if you were an elf, Morrigan asked about how elves weren't little boys, Flemeth asked about your elven mind, you were discriminated against twice in Ostagar, maybe the Dalish said something, and some dwarves in Ostagar said something.

so let's say DA Origins was a 50 hour game, maybe you heard you were an elf less than 1/2 hour in the whole game.

Oh wait I edited this post because I forgot to add 10 minutes!  Sten, Ser Jory, and Leliana also talk about how you're an elf.

It's more than this, it's commented on a few times in Ostagar, by Calian, elven servants surprised but happy at your position as a Warden, the discrimation you have already mentioned from the weapon-merchant guy, and to a lesser extent the ash warriors, Alistair rewarks on it, and you have the dialogue options.  In Lothering it's the first thing the highwayman comments on (you an elf are leading the band), there's a racist farmer near the entrance you can talk to, Loghain's guards mention it, you have specific dialogue options if you are Dalish with a Chantry chanter and the mad chasid guy in front of the Chantry, with the boy who lost his mother who is surprised you are an elf and nice to him (if you were) etc.  All the companions at some point mention it whether in their first meeting (Morrigan, Alistair, Orghen, Wynne (if you are Dalish and discuss the Fade/Beyond), Sten, Leliana, or later in discussing pasts, Zevran, Shale, Leliana (again), Morrigan (slighty), Wynne (asking what drew to the Wardens and your past), Alistair (again, about Dalish burial practices), and so on.

In Redcliffe your elven nature is rewarked on by the Chantry in it being surprisng that you are helping them, by the blacksmith (slightly discrimatory), by the Knight in command of the defences from castle Recliffe in asking how to address an elf of your station (as a Warden), by Isolde, by Connor asking ;what is it mother,', and following that battle if Dalish you again get a Dalish speicfic dialogue option.  The elf at the tavern (the spy of Loghain recognises you as fellow elf).

In the mage's circle area, the ferryman remarks how surpised he is to see an elf dress up so fancy and so on (slighty discrimatory), though I think that's the only one I can remember there.

In Ozzamar being a elf is remarked on during the Provings (can't say those elven names, the Proving master says), by Orghen (mentioned above), and by Hespith.

The Guardian in the Gauntlet and the Gauntlet itself although this specific remarking on every Warden's background, but in doing so it obviously recognises race as well

Dalish camp, clearly you are reconised often as either fellow Dalish or as a 'flat-ear' city elf.

In Denerim it can come up in conversation with the sisters by the Chantry, and implied in asking the curator about Shartan's (sp?) canicals, it's clearly remarked on by Loghain (in both meeting the elven Warden with Arl Eamon and in the Landsmeet), it's recognised by Anora, and obviously by Shanni and the elven alienage (even as Dalish you are treated as a fellow elf, if an outsider), and recieve different treatment.

In the final battle Alistair's speach remarks on it (not sure about Anora's, I can remember right now), and it's definitely reconginsed in the final scenes.

There is more I think, but being a elf, while it could be intergrated more and remarked on more in Origins definitely, is far from being ignored by the game world either

Modifié par Curlain, 11 mai 2011 - 06:17 .

[MyKingdomCold]

I know I was probably exaggerating but the races don't make as much of a difference as people seem to think/remember.

For example, I think they could've differentiated between Dalish/city elves more. The only time it seems this happens is in Dalish camp and elven alienage. Oh, and King Cailan acknowledges you as Dalish and so does Leliana. As I said in a previous post, Dalish are supposed to be thought of as savages or have a bad reputation, yet the Dalish warden can walk around normally for most of the game.

Also, the elven mage origin, Leliana talks to you as if you were from the city elf origin asking about life in the alienage. Where's the option for "I was raised in the circle tower!"

[haroldhardluck]

Serpieri Nei wrote...
I'm curious why your bringing Varric into this when he has nothing to do with anything that is being discussed here.

Varric has everything to do with this discussion. He is at least as rich as Hawke. He runs the family business as a conversation with Aveline shows. It is also clear from conversations with Aveline that the Varric's business is quite huge as a result of the money from the Dark Road expedition.  In many ways Varric is much more connected than Hawke. It is Varric's connections that keeps Anders' clinc safe. It is Varric's connection that keeps Merrill safe in Lowtown.  However Varric is not the one the Arishok respects. He is not the one that vicount calls to his office in response to the Arishok's response. Money does not buy respect. Varric has the money but not the respect. Hawke has the respect and it is not just because he is rich. Money does not buy class. Hawke has class. Varric does not and does not want to have class. That is why Hawke is the leader and Varric is the sidekick.

So Varric is the perfect example that money cannot buyeverything. In a society with a nobility, noble status counts for a lot. Varric deliberately turned his back on his "noble" status. Hawke embraces it for the sake of his mother and sibling.

Harold

[haroldhardluck]

Sylvianus wrote...
Sorry, this is not speculation.

Yes it is. The Paksistani denial that they knew nothing about bin Laden hiding in plain sight in their country is more believable than your denial that it is speculation.

Kirkwall has guards in Lowertown, and also in the Upper Town. And in the fortress. The small number of qunari would never have reached the high place, facing hundreds of guards across Kirkwall unless it went quickly as commando. What has not been the case, we see a lot of qunari walk in the upper town and do what they want.

And all these guards did not stop the qunari from taking keep with commando speed. The wandering qunaris are proof of their control of the city. So you are proving you are wrong with these statements.

I'm not buy it.

I am not buying your arguments as you are proving yourself wrong. There is no further point in responding any further when you are doing such a good job of refuting yourself.

Harold

[Sylvianus]

Yes it is. The Paksistani denial that they knew nothing about bin Laden hiding in plain sight in their country is more believable than your denial that it is speculation.

Denial by the refusal of the logic. statement without arguments. There is no interest. Weak.

And all these guards did not stop the qunari from taking keep with commando speed. The wandering qunaris are proof of their control of the city. So you are proving you are wrong with these statements.

The wandering Qunari in Kirkwall is due to the Viscount's will of appeasement during all these years. Others like Petrice weren't at all agree. Had they wanted, they would have killed the Qunari easily.

It was Par Vollen's reaction that was feared. The wandering Qunari have no control over the city. They are tolerated in the lower city, that's all.

I am not buying your arguments as you are proving yourself wrong. There is no further point in responding any further when you are doing such a good job of refuting yourself.

Where I refute myself ? Assertions without any examples. You said all the time, you're wrong with no content ?

Modifié par Sylvianus, 11 mai 2011 - 07:02 .

[Nerevar-as]

Considering the relatively few people who played as non-human and the need for 4 additional VAs, I´d say it was a matter of resources. However they could have written the story to support this, but beside becoming viscount I didn´t see anything that wouldn´t work for elf/dwarf main character (and about viscount, for that matter only Cousland could rise to the throne of Ferelden, so what does it matter only one Origin can?

There were a lot of reasons for an apostate Hawke not working. I wish they would have taken Mass Effect multiple choice past and work from there for a mage Hawke.

[haroldhardluck]

Drasanil wrote...
Act 2) The Mansion... really? Fenris was squatting in a Manor for 3 years at that point and no one in power bothered to evict him and sell the property some one for money? Dwarf/Elf Hawke could have bought one, or if that don't jive, a minor tweak is Elf-Hawke could have been Haren of the Alienage instead, still makes him important while "keeping him in his place", plus there really weren't any "mansion quests" it was just a graphical upgrade for your storage chest and letter desk. Dwarf-Hawke could have still bought one.

Except that the opening in one of the Fenris quest has Isabella telling Fenris that he does not have to worry about the authorities anymore. She is clearly passing on a message from Varric.

It is clear from various companion to companion conversations that Varric has lots of connections to people in low places and high places that are not completely legal. He is making the Coterie protect Anders' clinic. He is making the Coterie protect Merrill in Lowtown. He is making the city government ignore Fenris. This is all probably done through a combination of bribes and blackmail.

You are right in that a combination of bribes, blackmail and extortion can make a non-human Hawke just as prominent in Kirkwall but that would be a very different character. Hawke is supposed to be heroic. Blackmailers and extortionists are not considered heroic people. That is why it is Varric who does all the dirty work behind Hawke's back. The changes you propose is basically blackface makeup for a human Hawke. It would create the same incongruity that exists in the Neverwinter games where your character can be yuan ti and no one comments on it, not even people who would kill a yuan ti on sight.

Making Hawke human has a story purpose and making him nonhuman would be a different story. Unlike DAO, there is deliberately only one origins in DA2.

Harold

[haroldhardluck]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

This thread title is 

Why did Hawke need to be a human, exactly? 

Because the developers decided to create a story around one origin where Hawke was human. It was a creative decision. They could have made Hawke an elf and that would have been a different story and a different game.

In DAO they made a creative decision to have multiple origins. In DA2 they made a creative decision to have only one origin. It is as simple as that.

Harold.