465 réponses à ce sujet

[Marionetten]

haroldhardluck wrote...

You are right in that a combination of bribes, blackmail and extortion can make a non-human Hawke just as prominent in Kirkwall but that would be a very different character. Hawke is supposed to be heroic. Blackmailers and extortionists are not considered heroic people. That is why it is Varric who does all the dirty work behind Hawke's back. The changes you propose is basically blackface makeup for a human Hawke. It would create the same incongruity that exists in the Neverwinter games where your character can be yuan ti and no one comments on it, not even people who would kill a yuan ti on sight.

You do realize that you can rise to prominence by working with smugglers, right? In fact, the very first quest they give you involves the extortion of a merchant. You don't have to play some hero who values justice and fairness above all else. I certainly didn't. My Hawke routinely blackmailed individuals and peddled souls to demons.

[Drasanil]

haroldhardluck wrote...

You are right in that a combination of bribes, blackmail and extortion can make a non-human Hawke just as prominent in Kirkwall but that would be a very different character. Hawke is supposed to be heroic.

Come again? Hawke was never ment to be heroic, his legend was, but the character himself necessarily wasn't... especially given that Varric is well known for embellishing things or glossing things over. Hawke could have been a mass-murdering druggee who happened to kill a few of the right people and the right time.

And really how heroic was Hawke when you get down to it? Not very much given that he actually had no input as to how any events turned out, he was just along for the right or a passive accomplice at best.

[Sylvianus]

Drasanil wrote...

haroldhardluck wrote...

You are right in that a combination of bribes, blackmail and extortion can make a non-human Hawke just as prominent in Kirkwall but that would be a very different character. Hawke is supposed to be heroic.

Come again? Hawke was never ment to be heroic, his legend was, but the character himself necessarily wasn't... especially given that Varric is well known for embellishing things or glossing things over. Hawke could have been a mass-murdering druggee who happened to kill a few of the right people and the right time.

And really how heroic was Hawke when you get down to it? Not very much given that he actually had no input as to how any events turned out, he was just along for the right or a passive accomplice at best.

Thank you. Hawke isn't supposed to be heroic at all.

Hawk is supposed to be the person the most influential or most powerful in Thedas, that's all. Moreover, He is not heroic in the story. He is a man who works for him, his friends and his family, trying to survive in a hostile environment.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 11 mai 2011 - 07:39 .

[Serpieri Nei]

MyKingdomCold wrote...

yes, your race was acknowledged, but it was acknowledged rarely.

if you were an elf, Morrigan asked about how elves weren't little boys, Flemeth asked about your elven mind, you were discriminated against twice in Ostagar, maybe the Dalish said something, and some dwarves in Ostagar said something.

so let's say DA Origins was a 50 hour game, maybe you heard you were an elf less than 1/2 hour in the whole game.

Oh wait I edited this post because I forgot to add 10 minutes!  Sten, Ser Jory, and Leliana also talk about how you're an elf.

Incorrect, your race was acknowledged by even more NPC's then the ones you have listed. I suggest you play the game again since you clearly have forgotten. I also suggest, you stay on topic. The thread is about why did Hawke need to be a human.

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 11 mai 2011 - 08:29 .

[Satyricon331]

haroldhardluck wrote...
*snip*
However Varric is not the one the Arishok respects. He is not the one that vicount calls to his office in response to the Arishok's response. Money does not buy respect. Varric has the money but not the respect. Hawke has the respect and it is not just because he is rich. Money does not buy class. Hawke has class. Varric does not and does not want to have class. That is why Hawke is the leader and Varric is the sidekick.

So Varric is the perfect example that money cannot buyeverything.
*snip*

If you think the Arishok respects classes, then you weren't paying attention at the end of Act 2.  Plus, Sten in DAO mentions the Qunari generally place elves in higher positions than humans, so the situation is the reverse of what you're trying to argue.

And once again, the gameplay-storyline segregation you're describing is marginal at most.  Minor story tweaks would repair even that much, and it's not as if the story is so flawless it could stand no changes.  Further, in DA2, whose most epic feature is the epically massive gameplay-storyline segregation, it makes no sense to argue that Bioware wanted to eliminate the minor amount of g-s segregation that an elf or dwarf Hawke would introduce.  If their motivation were g-s integration then they would have made massive changes to the game in other issues, and for this race issue, it would have been more responsive to the concern to make the minor story tweaks.

Resource concerns is a much more sensible explanation.  The story thing is just an excuse.

[Sylvianus]

Resource concerns is a much more sensible explanation. The story thing is just an excuse.

I agree with your post. At least Bioware never said such a thing, It is rather forumers. ^^

[Serpieri Nei]

haroldhardluck wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...
I'm curious why your bringing Varric into this when he has nothing to do with anything that is being discussed here.

Varric has everything to do with this discussion. He is at least as rich as Hawke. He runs the family business as a conversation with Aveline shows. It is also clear from conversations with Aveline that the Varric's business is quite huge as a result of the money from the Dark Road expedition.  In many ways Varric is much more connected than Hawke. It is Varric's connections that keeps Anders' clinc safe. It is Varric's connection that keeps Merrill safe in Lowtown.  However Varric is not the one the Arishok respects. He is not the one that vicount calls to his office in response to the Arishok's response. Money does not buy respect. Varric has the money but not the respect. Hawke has the respect and it is not just because he is rich. Money does not buy class. Hawke has class. Varric does not and does not want to have class. That is why Hawke is the leader and Varric is the sidekick.

So Varric is the perfect example that money cannot buyeverything. In a society with a nobility, noble status counts for a lot. Varric deliberately turned his back on his "noble" status. Hawke embraces it for the sake of his mother and sibling.

Harold

You are aware that Varric did not purchase a Manor right? It was Bartrand, The family business your referring too was the one he was a part of before the betrayal and only got back into it after killed or saved Bartrand from the shard. And that business belonged to the elder brother, guess who that is? Here's a hint it isn't Varric. So let's recap the points you keep missing. A dwarven outcast purchased a manor, and another manor was owned by a Tevinter magister, which later had an elf slave squatting in it. 

You are also aware that Varric didn't do a good job of protecting Merril right ? She was mugged quite often. And Varric did provide her with a string to not got lost instead of hiring her some guards or buying her protection right? What connections Varric had, are ones that he built living in Kirkwall. 

You are aware that I and many others have stated that it was the Viscount that called for Hawke because the Arishok asked for him due to their past association? Which proves that money, nor race, nor title , nor past heritage had anything to do with it. So I'm curious again why you keep bringing up Varric because you haven't been able to provide any weight to your points by using him? And when are you going to answer how a Tevinter Magister was able to secure a manor, and how Bartrand secured one? I think you should go re-read all the past posts because it's clear you have not read them or choose not to challenge the points that have been made.

[Serpieri Nei]

haroldhardluck wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

This thread title is 

Why did Hawke need to be a human, exactly? 

Because the developers decided to create a story around one origin where Hawke was human. It was a creative decision. They could have made Hawke an elf and that would have been a different story and a different game.

In DAO they made a creative decision to have multiple origins. In DA2 they made a creative decision to have only one origin. It is as simple as that.

Harold.

It's more plausible it was a decision made due to time constraints/resources. Since Origins was a hit and Bioware has data showing a great amount of players that did play Dwarf and elven, and others who completed multiple run throughs. So why abandon what worked? It has everything to do with cinematic limitations where characters with different heights and sizes have to have their own cinematic conversation for, as well the choices that impact the amount of dialog that needs to be written. On top of that you also need to voice them, and create multiple armor meshes for each race.

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 11 mai 2011 - 08:25 .

[Anyroad2]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

You are aware that Varric did not purchase a Manor right? It was Bartrand, The family business your referring too was the one he was a part of before the betrayal and only got back into it after killed or saved Bartrand from the shard. And that business belonged to the elder brother, guess who that is? Here's a hint it isn't Varric. So let's recap the points you keep missing. A dwarven outcast purchased a manor, and another manor was owned by a Tevinter magister, which later had an elf slave squatting in it. 

You are also aware that Varric didn't do a good job of protecting Merril right ? She was mugged quite often. And Varric did provide her with a string to not got lost instead of hiring her some guards or buying her protection right? What connections Varric had, are ones that he built living in Kirkwall. 

You are aware that I and many others have stated that it was the Viscount that called for Hawke because the Arishok asked for him due to their past association? Which proves that money, nor race, nor title , nor past heritage had anything to do with it. So I'm curious again why you keep bringing up Varric because you haven't been able to provide any weight to your points by using him? And when are you going to answer how a Tevinter Magister was able to secure a manor, and how Bartrand secured one? I think you should go re-read all the past posts because it's clear you have not read them or choose not to challenge the points that have been made.

The Tethras family were dwarven outcasts at one point years back before the start of DA2. We can come to that resolution because Varric says that he was born a surface dwarf, so were talking 20+ years before the start of the game. The Tehtras family is also from the Merchant Caste of Dwarves meaning that when they came to Kirkwall, it was probably because of business. The guard at the Gallows in charge of entrance into Kirkwall says that people who need to get in because of business are an exception to the "no entrance" policy, proving that Kirkwall puts a high value on its economy. So summing that all up, I think its right to say that House Tethras were not your average surface dwarves who probably made a lot of connections over the past few decades. All of that explains how a dwarven family could rise up. Remember that Dwarves arent as looked down upon as elves are, but still arent nobles... they are (for the most part) either merchants or Carta thugs.

After dealing with Bartrand, Varric takes over any responsibility that House Tethras has in Kirkwall.
When talking about Varric, and how well he did protecting Hawkes companions, I think that you're incorrect in assuming he did a poor job. I never recall Merril saying anything about being mugged herself, only that she has witnessed a few in years in the alienage. Also... have you thought that maybe Varric does the yarn thing for Merril because it would be rather expensive / hard to find anyone willing to play body guard for an elf? Perhaps you just overlooked that possibility because it would be damaging to the point youre trying to make here.

I remember there being a line of dialouge where Fenris tells Hawke that Danarius didnt actually own the mansion, that it belonged an associate of his. Theres no real way to tell how this associate acquired the mansion. Whoever it belonged to may have been someone who had lived in Kirkwall all their lives but held ties with Danarius in hopes of learning and benifiting from him and his experience.

On to the Viscount and Arishok... Thinking this over, I've come to the conclusion that being a human in that scenario did in fact play a strong part. The Viscount constantly talks about how pressured he is and how he feels that he is just barely holding everyone back from going completely hostile with one another. Given that, if it had been discovered that an elf was asked for by name by the Arishock and that the Viscount held special, private meetings (the Viscounts son for example... Im sure that drama was supposed to be kept secret) with said elf, the human nobility of Kirkwall would have surely used that against him, creating more tension and lessening the Viscounts authority (which is already damaged due to his dealings with the Qunari... a race that already was given more than the elves in Kirkwalls own alienage).

Modifié par Anyroad2, 12 mai 2011 - 03:27 .

[Bryy_Miller]

topster88 wrote...

Macrake wrote...

Pretty simple. No time for it.

no time for what, whipping up 6 more character models for his family or rewriting a few lines?

I'm not a developer, but those things seems like relatively simple tweaks

Why does everyone think that making game-changing content is just the press of a button?

That's really what I wanted to ask (rhetorically). I also don't know why Hawke had to be human. One of my few gripes about the game.

[Drasanil]

Anyroad2 wrote...
On to the Viscount and Arishok... Thinking this over, I've come to the conclusion that being a human in that scenario did in fact play a strong part. The Viscount constantly talks about how pressured he is and how he feels that he is just barely holding everyone back from going completely hostile with one another. Given that, if it had been discovered that an elf was asked for by name by the Arishock and that the Viscount held special, private meetings (the Viscounts son for example... Im sure that drama was supposed to be kept secret) with said elf, the human nobility of Kirkwall would have surely used that against him, creating more tension and lessening the Viscounts authority (which is already damaged due to his dealings with the Qunari... a race that already was given more than the elves in Kirkwalls own alienage).

At least it wouldn't cause as many problems as if say Hawke were a mage and known apostate, now that would be a scandal... oh... wait...

[Alexander1136]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Hawke did not need to be human. In fact, Hawke did not even have to exist and the events of Dragon Age 2 would have still unfolded.

but Hawkes the most important person in thedas he returned that trinket to that guy remember.


To give my thoughts to the question posed by the OP. if they put the option for hawke to be say a dwarf  the entire story with his mother and the runaway mage wouldnt have worked. there aren't any nobles that i have seen who are not human, so he wouldnt be able to claim back his name.  for this story to have worked he had to be at least half human. Just try not to think as da2 as the successor to DA:O and you'll be fine the game is just its own little chapter in this overall tale of the Dragon Age and is a little more linear. i dont like it either but obviously the writers are going somewhere with this.. i wait till i get the whole picture before i judge.

[Serpieri Nei]

Anyroad2 wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

You are aware that Varric did not purchase a Manor right? It was Bartrand, The family business your referring too was the one he was a part of before the betrayal and only got back into it after killed or saved Bartrand from the shard. And that business belonged to the elder brother, guess who that is? Here's a hint it isn't Varric. So let's recap the points you keep missing. A dwarven outcast purchased a manor, and another manor was owned by a Tevinter magister, which later had an elf slave squatting in it. 

You are also aware that Varric didn't do a good job of protecting Merril right ? She was mugged quite often. And Varric did provide her with a string to not got lost instead of hiring her some guards or buying her protection right? What connections Varric had, are ones that he built living in Kirkwall. 

You are aware that I and many others have stated that it was the Viscount that called for Hawke because the Arishok asked for him due to their past association? Which proves that money, nor race, nor title , nor past heritage had anything to do with it. So I'm curious again why you keep bringing up Varric because you haven't been able to provide any weight to your points by using him? And when are you going to answer how a Tevinter Magister was able to secure a manor, and how Bartrand secured one? I think you should go re-read all the past posts because it's clear you have not read them or choose not to challenge the points that have been made.

The Tethras family were dwarven outcasts at one point years back before the start of DA2. We can come to that resolution because Varric says that he was born a surface dwarf, so were talking 20+ years before the start of the game. The Tehtras family is also from the Merchant Caste of Dwarves meaning that when they came to Kirkwall, it was probably because of business. The guard at the Gallows in charge of entrance into Kirkwall says that people who need to get in because of business are an exception to the "no entrance" policy, proving that Kirkwall puts a high value on its economy. So summing that all up, I think its right to say that House Tethras were not your average surface dwarves who probably made a lot of connections over the past few decades. All of that explains how a dwarven family could rise up. Remember that Dwarves arent as looked down upon as elves are, but still arent nobles... they are (for the most part) either merchants or Carta thugs.

After dealing with Bartrand, Varric takes over any responsibility that House Tethras has in Kirkwall.
When talking about Varric, and how well he did protecting Hawkes companions, I think that you're incorrect in assuming he did a poor job. I never recall Merril saying anything about being mugged herself, only that she has witnessed a few in years in the alienage. Also... have you thought that maybe Varric does the yarn thing for Merril because it would be rather expensive / hard to find anyone willing to play body guard for an elf? Perhaps you just overlooked that possibility because it would be damaging to the point youre trying to make here.

I remember there being a line of dialouge where Fenris tells Hawke that Danarius didnt actually own the mansion, that it belonged an associate of his. Theres no real way to tell how this associate acquired the mansion. Whoever it belonged to may have been someone who had lived in Kirkwall all their lives but held ties with Danarius in hopes of learning and benifiting from him and his experience.

On to the Viscount and Arishok... Thinking this over, I've come to the conclusion that being a human in that scenario did in fact play a strong part. The Viscount constantly talks about how pressured he is and how he feels that he is just barely holding everyone back from going completely hostile with one another. Given that, if it had been discovered that an elf was asked for by name by the Arishock and that the Viscount held special, private meetings (the Viscounts son for example... Im sure that drama was supposed to be kept secret) with said elf, the human nobility of Kirkwall would have surely used that against him, creating more tension and lessening the Viscounts authority (which is already damaged due to his dealings with the Qunari... a race that already was given more than the elves in Kirkwalls own alienage).

Since you decided to speak for haroldhardluck...

So you agree that a dwarf can not only increase his social status but can purchase a manor. After all if slavers and Tevinter Magisters can own them as well, it's not a stretch for an elf with contacts and gold to do the same. Not that hard to make contacts when working for a mercenary or a smuggler, you meet all kinds of people that want your services nobles, cuthroats, magister's and so on. It's how Hawke made a name for himself in Kirkwall at the start of ACT I.

Since you are not aware of Merill being mugged does not mean it doesn't happen, I suggest you replay the game. So if Varric had a large number of money its clear he didn't spent it on any of his friends, because it's really not that difficult to hire elves in the alienage to keep an eye on her but instead gave her a ball of string. Some friend eh. It's clear your not aware of the point I was trying to make. So I suggest you go back and read all the previous posts between haroldhardluck and me.

The line you're referring to is when Fenris tells Hawke how Danarius loved to flaunt him to his associates that he brought home while drinking Agreggio Pavali.

How about you truly think this over. Your words "The Viscount constantly talks about how pressured he is and how he feels that he is just barely holding everyone back from going completely hostile with one another." So the best choice was to use a Human who is an Apostate, has dealings with Apostates, or has a sister who is an Apostate.

Once again, the Viscount doesn't choose Hawke, he is personally request by the Arishok because of his previous dealings with him. Please see Black Gunpowder and Shepherding wolves.

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 12 mai 2011 - 05:19 .

[Addai]

MyKingdomCold wrote...

I wasn't just talking about other people talking about your race in Origins. Even though that's important. the races seem to be different from our races and being acknowledged as black, white, Asian...
I mean aren't the Dalish thought of as savages or something? Yet, my Dalish warden could walk around like a normal person. In Ostagar, when that priest asked if you wanted a blessing, you had to say that you were Dalish before she noticed. What, my Dalish tatoos didn't give it away?

They could have had race specific specs or talents. For example, Dalish are supposed to be really good archers. why not give them more/exclusive archer talents? Dwarves could've been better fighters underground. On the surface, maybe they would suffer. The whole "I might fall into the sky" thing.

Few people even know of the Dalish, and would assume you were just a city elf with a tattoo.  Like Lloyd, who asks if you ran away from your alienage.

And then the RP conception is very different.  My Dalish PC could have made the same choices as my Cousland, but how I imagined they came to and were impacted by those choices was very different.  As for their talents, that again is up to you to craft in RP.  I made my Dalish a ranger archer, and gave no other PCs that setup.

[Anyroad2]

Drasanil wrote...

At least it wouldn't cause as many problems as if say Hawke were a mage and known apostate, now that would be a scandal... oh... wait...

Hah, very true. That is one thing that they really needed to play up more. I never felt that anyone cared that one of my Hawkes was a mage, or Bethany for that matter until the end of Act 1. >_>

[Anyroad2]

Serpieri Nei wrote...


Since you decided to speak for haroldhardluck...

So you agree that a dwarf can not only increase his social status but can purchase a manor. After all if slavers and Tevinter Magisters can own them as well, it's not a stretch for an elf with contacts and gold to do the same. Not that hard to make contacts when working for a mercenary or a smuggler, you meet all kinds of people that want your services nobles, cuthroats, magister's and so on. It's how Hawke made a name for himself in Kirkwall at the start of ACT I.

Since you are not aware of Merill being mugged does not mean it doesn't happen, I suggest you replay the game. So if Varric had a large number of money its clear he didn't spent it on any of his friends, because it's really not that difficult to hire elves in the alienage to keep an eye on her but instead gave her a ball of string. Some friend eh. It's clear your not aware of the point I was trying to make. So I suggest you go back and read all the previous posts between haroldhardluck and me.

The line you're referring to is when Fenris tells Hawke how Danarius loved to flaunt him to his associates that he brought home while drinking Agreggio Pavali.

How about you truly think this over. Your words "The Viscount constantly talks about how pressured he is and how he feels that he is just barely holding everyone back from going completely hostile with one another." So the best choice was to use a Human who is an Apostate, has dealings with Apostates, or has a sister who is an Apostate.

Once again, the Viscount doesn't choose Hawke, he is personally request by the Arishok because of his previous dealings with him. Please see Black Gunpowder and Shepherding wolves.

I hope you arent mad that I decided to reply to a post on a public forum. Forums arent any place to hold a private discussion, after all.

Yeah. A dwarven family from the Merchant Caste after a decade or two can amass enough wealth and gain enough connections to buy a manor in Hightown. They haven't become nobles, or have gained significant influence beyond the position they hold in the Dwarven Merchants Guild. As I posted before... there are no dwarves in Kirkwall who don't fall into the Merchant or Criminal category.

If Merril does get mugged, please (anyone) bring up when she talks about it. If I need to, I'll reload a save near there, or create the situation in order to hear it. In 4 playthrus now, I have yet to recall her saying anything about being mugged. The only thing about mugging that I hear from her is that she has seen a few people get mugged in the alienage over the years.

Oh, and I must not know what point you were trying to make by bringing up the protection Varric provides. Seemed very off-topic to me. Either way, Anders and Merril (even if she does get mugged) is a perfect example that he does a good job of protecting them. They both have their health and freedom at the start of Act 3, which is a lot considering that theyre both apostates and outsiders (Anders a Ferelden, and Merril an Elf).

Oh, heres a video of the only time I heard Merrill talking about muggers:

No, I'm not reffering to the conversation about Fenris being shown off. I'm talking about this: 
Skip to 00:40
Related, but on another note... Aveline rearanges the guard patrols to avoid Fenris' place. Thats why hes been able to squat there over the years.

The Viscount may not know that you're a mage in Act 2. I know that between Act 1-2 Hawke and Co arent as well known as they are in Act 3. Act 1 known around the underbelly of Kirkwall. Act 2 known for making a fortune during the Deep Roads Expedition. The details on what happend isnt known to the public as fact... one of the reasons Cassandra is questioning Varric in the frist place.

Before Act 3, its very likely that not a lot of people know that Hawke is a mage or that Hawke travels with apostates. No templars ever come after them unless in general sweeps (Anders makes mention of authorities looking for mages in Darktown), and anyone who does know for a fact has a vested interest in keeping Hawke and Co free, feels its the right thing to do, or a mage themselves (the people Anders heals, the dreamers parents ect). At the end of Act 1, if you don't take Bethany the fact that shes an apostate does become fact, but that is resolved. The templars never take action agasint Hawke and Company because of it.

The only thing the Viscount knows for fact is that Hawke is from a noble family, came to Kirkwall from Ferelden during the Blight, and made a fortune because of the Deep Roads. If the Arishok knew Hawke was a mage, he probably wouldnt be dealing with you because even the words of a mage corrupt those that hear them and arent trained to deal with it according to the Qun.

Again, no. The Viscount ultimately does choose Hawke. The Arishok makes the demand to the Viscount who then chooses to contact Hawke and relate the demand. The Viscount could have sent anyone just as easily, even his own son if he wanted. The Arishok may have ignored anyone who wasnt Hawke (Saemus may have been able to get the information as he had shown to have an open, understanding mind) however, meaning that things would have played out much diffrently.

Modifié par Anyroad2, 12 mai 2011 - 07:24 .

[Serpieri Nei]

Anyroad2 wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...


Since you decided to speak for haroldhardluck...

So you agree that a dwarf can not only increase his social status but can purchase a manor. After all if slavers and Tevinter Magisters can own them as well, it's not a stretch for an elf with contacts and gold to do the same. Not that hard to make contacts when working for a mercenary or a smuggler, you meet all kinds of people that want your services nobles, cuthroats, magister's and so on. It's how Hawke made a name for himself in Kirkwall at the start of ACT I.

Since you are not aware of Merill being mugged does not mean it doesn't happen, I suggest you replay the game. So if Varric had a large number of money its clear he didn't spent it on any of his friends, because it's really not that difficult to hire elves in the alienage to keep an eye on her but instead gave her a ball of string. Some friend eh. It's clear your not aware of the point I was trying to make. So I suggest you go back and read all the previous posts between haroldhardluck and me.

The line you're referring to is when Fenris tells Hawke how Danarius loved to flaunt him to his associates that he brought home while drinking Agreggio Pavali.

How about you truly think this over. Your words "The Viscount constantly talks about how pressured he is and how he feels that he is just barely holding everyone back from going completely hostile with one another." So the best choice was to use a Human who is an Apostate, has dealings with Apostates, or has a sister who is an Apostate.

Once again, the Viscount doesn't choose Hawke, he is personally request by the Arishok because of his previous dealings with him. Please see Black Gunpowder and Shepherding wolves.

I hope you arent mad that I decided to reply to a post on a public forum. Forums arent any place to hold a private discussion, after all.

Yeah. A dwarven family from the Merchant Caste after a decade or two can amass enough wealth and gain enough connections to buy a manor in Hightown. They haven't become nobles, or have gained significant influence beyond the position they hold in the Dwarven Merchants Guild. As I posted before... there are no dwarves in Kirkwall who don't fall into the Merchant or Criminal category.

If Merril does get mugged, please (anyone) bring up when she talks about it. If I need to, I'll reload a save near there, or create the situation in order to hear it. In 4 playthrus now, I have yet to recall her saying anything about being mugged. The only thing about mugging that I hear from her is that she has seen a few people get mugged in the alienage over the years.

Oh, and I must not know what point you were trying to make by bringing up the protection Varric provides. Seemed very off-topic to me. Either way, Anders and Merril (even if she does get mugged) is a perfect example that he does a good job of protecting them. They both have their health and freedom at the start of Act 3, which is a lot considering that theyre both apostates and outsiders (Anders a Ferelden, and Merril an Elf).

Oh, heres a video of the only time I heard Merrill talking about muggers:

No, I'm not reffering to the conversation about Fenris being shown off. I'm talking about this: 
Skip to 00:40
Related, but on another note... Aveline rearanges the guard patrols to avoid Fenris' place. Thats why hes been able to squat there over the years.

The Viscount may not know that you're a mage in Act 2. I know that between Act 1-2 Hawke and Co arent as well known as they are in Act 3. Act 1 known around the underbelly of Kirkwall. Act 2 known for making a fortune during the Deep Roads Expedition. The details on what happend isnt known to the public as fact... one of the reasons Cassandra is questioning Varric in the frist place.

Before Act 3, its very likely that not a lot of people know that Hawke is a mage or that Hawke travels with apostates. No templars ever come after them unless in general sweeps (Anders makes mention of authorities looking for mages in Darktown), and anyone who does know for a fact has a vested interest in keeping Hawke and Co free, feels its the right thing to do, or a mage themselves (the people Anders heals, the dreamers parents ect). At the end of Act 1, if you don't take Bethany the fact that shes an apostate does become fact, but that is resolved. The templars never take action agasint Hawke and Company because of it.

The only thing the Viscount knows for fact is that Hawke is from a noble family, came to Kirkwall from Ferelden during the Blight, and made a fortune because of the Deep Roads. If the Arishok knew Hawke was a mage, he probably wouldnt be dealing with you because even the words of a mage corrupt those that hear them and arent trained to deal with it according to the Qun.

Again, no. The Viscount ultimately does choose Hawke. The Arishok makes the demand to the Viscount who then chooses to contact Hawke and relate the demand. The Viscount could have sent anyone just as easily, even his own son if he wanted. The Arishok may have ignored anyone who wasnt Hawke (Saemus may have been able to get the information as he had shown to have an open, understanding mind) however, meaning that things would have played out much diffrently.

You decided to speak for another person, where you had very little context on what had taken
place which was clearly seen in your post. 

And as it has been posted by many times, one does not need to be a noble to have a manor. I do wish to thank you for pointing that out like many others have, some people still can't fathom that simple truth. Be it slave trader, outcast dwarf, Tevinter Magister, or Squatter elf.

It seems you missed the part where it was evidently given up or he's dead - which supports that once again that being Human and having a title is not needed to acquire a mansion in DA2.

Don't need a video, it was I who had pointed out that Merril was attacked by Muggers. And the best Varric was able to do with his resources was to offer her a piece of string.

You are aware that Bioware made the game that way right? - there is absolutely no consequences for using magic or even performing blood magic. Which again supports, that race and class don't matter to the story.

Wait, are you serious the Viscount didn't know I was mage. I guess everyone these days parades around in mage robes and carries a staff. No wait, that can't be right cause I haven't seen any NPC's that did that except in the gallows. I'm sure no one heard about me being a mage while I worked off my debt. Oh, wait but even the Arishok wasn't aware. It must be the new fashion statement in Kirkwall. Which brings us back to a mechanic that Bioware did not implement since they had very little time/resources for making the game, guess we should be lucky mages weren't removed from the game which wouldn't affect the story anyways, just like an elf or dwarf Hawke wouldn't either. Sadly, Hawke is just a placeholder - a person whose is irrelevant when it comes to the driving events of DA2. We're just along for the ride but please show what the Viscount actually knows about Hawke in the game. I'm sure I'll find it interesting.

And Again no, the Arishok would not speak to anyone but Hawke. - be it a chicken, a rock, a woman, a mage, a dwarf, an elf, or corpse - the story would then not continue because that person is not there.

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 12 mai 2011 - 09:53 .

[Satyricon331]

Anyroad2 wrote...
On to the Viscount and Arishok... Thinking this over, I've come to the conclusion that being a human in that scenario did in fact play a strong part. The Viscount constantly talks about how pressured he is and how he feels that he is just barely holding everyone back from going completely hostile with one another. Given that, if it had been discovered that an elf was asked for by name by the Arishock and that the Viscount held special, private meetings (the Viscounts son for example... Im sure that drama was supposed to be kept secret) with said elf, the human nobility of Kirkwall would have surely used that against him, creating more tension and lessening the Viscounts authority (which is already damaged due to his dealings with the Qunari... a race that already was given more than the elves in Kirkwalls own alienage).

In other words, the VIscount's having to deal with an elf would enhance the dramatic tensions Bioware was trying to build.  Look at what you're saying - they didn't include specifically elves b/c while human characters would have had the exact same plotline they do in the DA2 we have, for elves they might have had to add an extra line or two about how the Viscount faced added pressure and perhaps resented having to deal with an elf.  It must have been an overwhelming burden for the writing team.

That idea just doesn't make sense.  It's not just b.c of what I've said previously, but also b/c all these little story issues people keep raising are such a lame payoff for having lost choice.  It's pretty clear they just didn't want ot put in the resources.

edit: I don't mean to say I don't understand the situation EA placed them in... I'm not saying they were lazy, just rushed.  Also, if the Viscount really didn't want to deal with an elf, he culd have had his doorman guy (I forget his title) or someone deal with Hawke instead.  And on that point, imo it'd be better to have greater game reactivity to a race choice, not less as all the story people here keep suggesting - but then the resources issue comes up again.

Modifié par Satyricon331, 12 mai 2011 - 04:23 .

[haroldhardluck]

Drasanil wrote...

Come again? Hawke was never ment to be heroic, his legend was, but the character himself necessarily wasn't... especially given that Varric is well known for embellishing things or glossing things over. Hawke could have been a mass-murdering druggee who happened to kill a few of the right people and the right time.

And really how heroic was Hawke when you get down to it? Not very much given that he actually had no input as to how any events turned out, he was just along for the right or a passive accomplice at best.

As you play the game, you are seeing what actually happened, not  Varric's embellishments. So Varric's tales have nothing to do with the actual heroics of Hawke.

A hero is someone who does great deeds in the face of great adversity. However he is also not some Politically Correct Goody Two Shoes. In a violent world, he is a violent man because he has to be.  If you see Hawke as a mass murdering thug then you are playing him as a mass murdering thug.

Hawke is as heroic as you play him.

Harold

[haroldhardluck]

Serpieri Nei wrote...
And as it has been posted by many times, one does not need to be a noble to have a manor. I do wish to thank you for pointing that out like many others have, some people still can't fathom that simple truth. Be it slave trader, outcast dwarf, Tevinter Magister, or Squatter elf.

It seems you missed the part where it was evidently given up or he's dead - which supports that once again that being Human and having a title is not needed to acquire a mansion in DA2.

All this talk about how money talks misses one very important point, which is that Hawke enters Kirkwall with no money. And Hawke had to first get in before he could ever make the money to buy the manor. As an elf he would have been thrown into the harbor and told to swim back to Fereldon. The Kirkwallers were not letting most of the human Fereldons into the city. They certainly would not have let an elf in. Hawke could not be a dwarf as that means that Bethany and Hawke could not be mages and a major part of the story with the family would not exist.

So the story situation is such that Hawke can only be human. Many elements of the story would not exist if Hawke were not human and noble. The quest for the family will would not exist. A different quest would have been required to fill that hole which means more work, more money and more time for the developers. Allowing Hawke to be non-human has implications in the game that goes beyond whether he can buy a manor or not. Bioware could have done Hawke as a half elf who can pass as pure human. That has some interesting consequences but it still boils down to Hawke as a human.

Harold

[MrProliferation]

At least it's not the Witcher, where you can only play one race, gender, name, apperance and class. Look, I think it would've been possible for Hawke to be non-human, it just would've required a lot of story tweaks. Setting aside the question of the manor, the following elements would've had to be completely different:

- Siblings: If you were a dwarf, you wouldn't have a mage sibling. It would work if you were an elf, but even if you were an elf or a dwarf, you don't see elven or dwarven Templars running around. Sure it's a specialization you can pick at any race, but I don't recall seeing any such Templars serving as actual Templars. That kind of leaves Carver out of luck. You could accomodate both of these, but the storylines for the siblings would have to be changed unless they would definitely die or become gray wardens.

- All that remains: This would've been an awkward quest, considering it was solely based on your mother's appearance. It's true you could've had a blood mage who had a dwarven or an elven wife, but that would've also meant all the other victims would've had to have been that race too, which changes even more in the story, for instance why would Emeric have become involved if it was a dwarf? A mage wouldn't've been one of the victims. Secondly, the Orlaisian noblewoman definitely wouldn't've been an elf. You would probably have to cut that quest and go with something completely different. Maybe the Carta comes after your mother or something if you're a dwarf.

That would've all been possible to do, but very quickly the resources to do so were clearly more than the corporate overlords were willing to greenlight for this game's budget. They spent a lot of time on DAO's engine, and clearly decided a quick face lift and cash-in with DA2 would help increase the Return on Investment. I don't even think EA is 100% to blame there, because ANY business has to consider these things, even if Bioware was still independent. The result was flawed, but I still think better than most games out there.

DAO worked with different racial choices because the Warden was simultaneously an outcast and someone who had special privileges. They could force people to ignore their prejudices or at the very least contain them in the name of the goal they had to face. It would require substantially more massaging to make that work in a DA2 type setting.

All the same, I think it would be interesting to show how prejudice affects things. For instance, if Hawke was an elf he NEVER gets a manor and always lives in lowtown and is denied recognition for being Champion as a formal title, even if many recognize it informally. Or, if Hawke is a dwarf, he may raise up but continues to face problems with the Carta and dwarven intrigue like all rich dwarves due. Those would've been interesting tangents, but again it all takes more resources than most are willing to pay. That the PC in DAO was a Warden allowed the story to ignore so much of that extra baggage because aside from some remarks and minor prejudice, the race of the Warden ends up not mattering too much. All the quests are essentially the same, even if you do ludicrous things like having a mage invoke the Right of Annulment and having a Dalish elf back the werewolves.

Modifié par MrProliferation, 12 mai 2011 - 07:39 .

[JesterPsychotica]

Stippling wrote...

The VO situation might have got a bit fuzzy too. Even with the same accent, each race seems to have a distinct "voice." Especially if we're talking about a Dalish Hawke. I'm sure a lot of that could have been looked over, but given their time frame I'd prefer one race that is fully realized than a hodgepodge of all three races that are incomplete and hollow.

It all comes down to what Macrake said... they just did not have enough time.

EDIT: It would take a lot more than just different models to make different races for Hawke, unless the only thing you were looking for is a cosmetic change. Being an elf and having it have no bearing on the plot is kind of pointless. Besides it'd destroy the whole "Amell" family connection, thus it CANNOT just be cosmetic.

This may have already been said (I haven't read every single post in this thread) But as far as the whole Amell family connection, it could've been remedied with the Elf family being "Surana" and the Dwarf family being "Aeducan" or "Harrowmont"- depending on which fell in your DA:O game.

That way the Dwarf family still comes from a "fallen noble house" thats why they had to become surfacers. For the elves, they still have the potential connection to the Elf Mage Warden.

[Lumikki]

neppakyo wrote...

It doesn't matter if you're a mage or its just your sister. Thats more along the lines of a personal background. It centered more on meeting anders and his views on the mage/templar friction. hawke being a mage, or hawke a warrior/rogue with your sister as a mage doesn't matter to the plot.

I disagree. If you family would not have any magic user, I would say the motive solving mage / templar conflict and all quest where it exist would be even more flat than it's now. I mean Hawke could be damm dog, it would make any difference. If you go that line. How ever, saying that it doesn't matter for plot, then you just ignored hole role-playing part of hole game. I mean if you ignore story and say game techical structure doesn't require mage class. You just can't ignore hole story consept.

What anders has to do anything? Player doesn't even have to use Anders as companion at all. You can play hole story without Anders. Sure, there is few situation where Anders comes part of story, but so does Varric, Merrill and even Isabela.

Modifié par Lumikki, 12 mai 2011 - 08:08 .

[Drasanil]

Lumikki wrote...
I disagree. If you family would not have any magic user, I would say the motive solving mage / templar conflict and all quest where it exist would be even more flat than it's now. I mean Hawke could be damm dog, it would make any difference. If you go that line. How ever, saying that it doesn't matter for plot, then you just ignored hole role-playing part of hole game. I mean if you ignore story and say game techical structure doesn't require mage class. You just can't ignore hole story consept.

There is no role-playing, the VOs do that for you and very firm railroading does that for you, as for the story... Hawke is a side show to the main story of Isabella in Act II and Anders in Act III.

What anders has to do anything? Player doesn't even have to use Anders as companion at all. You can play hole story without Anders. Sure, there is few situation where Anders comes part of story, but so does Varric, Merrill and even Isabela.

You did finish the game yes? "A few situations" where Anders becomes part of the story is a massive understatement, Anders is the story, Hawke isn't the least bit relevant to what happens.

[Serpieri Nei]

haroldhardluck wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...
And as it has been posted by many times, one does not need to be a noble to have a manor. I do wish to thank you for pointing that out like many others have, some people still can't fathom that simple truth. Be it slave trader, outcast dwarf, Tevinter Magister, or Squatter elf.

It seems you missed the part where it was evidently given up or he's dead - which supports that once again that being Human and having a title is not needed to acquire a mansion in DA2.

All this talk about how money talks misses one very important point, which is that Hawke enters Kirkwall with no money. And Hawke had to first get in before he could ever make the money to buy the manor. As an elf he would have been thrown into the harbor and told to swim back to Fereldon. The Kirkwallers were not letting most of the human Fereldons into the city. They certainly would not have let an elf in. Hawke could not be a dwarf as that means that Bethany and Hawke could not be mages and a major part of the story with the family would not exist.

So the story situation is such that Hawke can only be human. Many elements of the story would not exist if Hawke were not human and noble. The quest for the family will would not exist. A different quest would have been required to fill that hole which means more work, more money and more time for the developers. Allowing Hawke to be non-human has implications in the game that goes beyond whether he can buy a manor or not. Bioware could have done Hawke as a half elf who can pass as pure human. That has some interesting consequences but it still boils down to Hawke as a human.

Harold

You seem to keep missing how the story unfolds, regardless how penniless you are as a refugee of Ferelden. You get in the city by working off your debt for a year, which would of been interesting to see how Hawke actually made a name for himself. People have also failed to make Elves out as some kind of evil plague, even the Viscount points out the greatest thread the city faces is the growing tension between the Templars and mages, and the giants. Oh I get it elves are buying their time waiting to strike. Is that why refugee elves would be thrown into the sea, why not just kill them on sight since you have no way provide any backing to your
point from the game.

It has already been proven multiple times that magic/being a human/nobility is not a requirement of any of the major plots in any of the acts. It's quite simple, the story is not the reason why Hawke needed to be human/has magic in his blood/or had to nobility at one point. It's now up to you provide some backing from the game for everything you have just said, which you still have not in multiple posts which continues to weaken the ground your standing on.

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 12 mai 2011 - 08:43 .