465 réponses à ce sujet

[MyKingdomCold]

it may be a minor point, but when you decide on whether you'll work for Athenril or Meera, they both tell you that they're so eager to help you because you or your sister is a mage. They haven't had one of those in awhile, so they find it useful to have an apostate working for them.

Again, it's a minor point, but it is part of the story.

[Ariella]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

MyKingdomCold wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

MyKingdomCold wrote...

OK, but how would you resolve the part of the story if you were a dwarf where your father was a mage and either you or your sister was a mage as well?

Are you referring to that side quest that lasted only a few minutes, that wasn't even part of the main story.

what do you mean, wasn't part of the story? Your father was a mage. and if you weren't a mage, your sister was.  So, magic in your bloodlines is part of the story.

So it was the magic of my blood that brought the blight to Lothering which lead me magically ind Aveline and somehow summon Flemeth to my aid. The magic in my bloodlines is what allowed Bartrand to take me along to the Deep Roads, and not the 50 gold. Any why didn't my blood persuade Bartrand to take me along in the first place? Was It the magic in my Blood that had the Arishok make a personal request to the Viscount for me to speak to him. It was the magic in my blood that made me choose between the Mage and Templars? Because I'm quite sure it was Anders who put me in that situation in the first place.

The magic in the Hawke bloodline (on both sides I might add) sent Leandra to Lothering in the first place. Being an Amell managed to get Hawke back into Kirkwall, but on terms of being a refugee. The magic in both bloodlines plays into WHY Hawke needs to gain standing in Kirkwall as not to be persecuted or snapped up by the Circle or killed for being an Apostate outright. Without any of that nothing else could have happened.

[MyKingdomCold]

true. the whole family aspect and the tension between Gamlen and Leandra is a result of her leaving for Ferelden to follow a Ferelden aspostate.

anyway, since this is a no spoiler forum, I don't want to say much more.

[Lumikki]

Drasanil wrote...

There is no role-playing, the VOs do that for you and very firm railroading does that for you, as for the story... Hawke is a side show to the main story of Isabella in Act II and Anders in Act III.

Ahh, you are crying here as not able to make enough meaningful choises. If you can't make choises then you life has not meaning. I mean Hawke was lap dog, nothing more, right?

You did finish the game yes? "A few situations" where Anders becomes part of the story is a massive understatement, Anders is the story, Hawke isn't the least bit relevant to what happens.

I ques we played different game then. Anders have only two point in the hole story. (As this is no spoiler area, I leave it little vague).

1. Provide the map
2. Did the crime in the end.

Both these situation while they did have meaning in story, they where very short to compared to hole story.

Let me explain, even if Anders would not have made the crime, the item recovered from you know where, would not allow any compromise happen in the end anyway. So, basicly what Anders did had no real meaning for the conflict, it was allready happening anyway, because the conflict was caused by Knight-Commander Meredith as not making any compromize and we all know why it did happen. That was the point of the story. Not what Anders did. Anders action just caused the conflict happen sooner, like last straw, but it would have happen anyway. Remember Anders did not know about why Meredith was so cruel agaist mages, so Anders was him self thinking he made the conflict happen, but that wasn't in the end the case, conflict had started many years before because you know why.

Modifié par Lumikki, 12 mai 2011 - 09:59 .

[MyKingdomCold]

yes, not to divulge too much of the story, but unless everyone was gathered for tea and cake when we see what Anders does, the conflict had been brewing for awhile.

[Anyroad2]

Serpieri, I think its pretty clear that youre the one not fully reading posts here.

If you did read my post, and look at the video links I posted, you would have seen clearly that the video with Merrill in it says NOTHING about Merill being mugged. As a matter of fact, it says the opposite. She thinks that people don't mug her because they don't like her, meaning they havent muged her. I also asked for some proof from anyone of her mugging... still waiting for that. No one seems to be able to dig up anything which proves what youre saying. The only "proof" you give is your word.

The clip with Fenris clearly says that Danarious does not own the mansion and never did... It belonged to a Tevinter Merchant. Danarious may have used the mansion, or stole it after killing this Tevinter. You would have also seen that I pointed out that the reason Fenris has been able to squat in Hightown is because of Aveline who makes sure that no guards patrol near his mansion.

I am very serious. I don't think that the Viscount or anyone of significant power in Kirkwall knew Hawke was a mage or knew that Hawke traveled with mages until the end of Act 2 because no one ever mentions it before Hawke is Champion. Proir to Act 3 the only people who know for sure that Hawke is a mage or has apostate friends are people who like I previously posted... benifit(ed) from Hawke and Co, feel like they should support mage freedom or are mages themselves.

You  posted...
"You are aware that Bioware made the game that way right? - there is
absolutely no consequences for using magic or even performing blood
magic"

I agree, there is no consequence for Hawke being a mage. This is the way the game was made. However, I doubt that Hawke would be dumb enough to openly run around casting spells and flaunting being a mage in Kirkwall. Doing so would endanger him/her... which goes against the way the Hawkes have been living since Leandra ran off with Malcolm. There needed to be more focus on hiding Hawkes or Bethanys magic, unfortunately the game has its limits on what it can do. "...Bioware made the game that way..." and its something we have to deal with.

This whole argument of yours is based on Hawke being allowed to enter Kirkwall in the first place. I have yet to read any posts that challenge the arguments made by those that disagree with you and your idea that anyone could have gotten into Kirkwall. I belive elves and dwarves (though dwarves have a stronger case) would have been sent back like most other Fereldens were, because neither of those races have any noble relatives living in Kirkwall. A human Hawke has a claim to nobility, however small or meaningless the Amell name has become due to Gamlens gambling habbits... which at least lead him to gain some sort of connection with Meeran and Athenril.

Modifié par Anyroad2, 12 mai 2011 - 10:50 .

[Drasanil]

Anyroad2 wrote...
This whole argument of yours is based on Hawke being allowed to enter Kirkwall in the first place. I have yet to read any posts that challenge the arguments made by those that disagree with you and your idea that anyone could have gotten into Kirkwall. I belive elves and dwarves (though dwarves have a stronger case) would have been sent back like most other Fereldens were, because neither of those races have any noble relatives living in Kirkwall. A human Hawke has a claim to nobility, however small or meaningless the Amell name has become due to Gamlens gambling habbits... which at least lead him to gain some sort of connection with Meeran and Athenril.

Hawke had no recognised claim to nobility at the time of his arrival, the knew who Gamlen was but had no idea that the Amells were nobles, and the guards weren't even going to let him in despite the fact that a) his family is from the city and  he still had family in the city, you had to work for smugglers/mercs for a whole year to pay off the debt/bribe it was needed to get in... the same situation would apply equally well to an elf or dwarf, getting in the city was pretty much a question of bribery and saving the guard captain from getting his arse kicked by those angry mercs.

Further more there were elf refugees in dark town IIRC.

[Ariella]

Drasanil wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...
This whole argument of yours is based on Hawke being allowed to enter Kirkwall in the first place. I have yet to read any posts that challenge the arguments made by those that disagree with you and your idea that anyone could have gotten into Kirkwall. I belive elves and dwarves (though dwarves have a stronger case) would have been sent back like most other Fereldens were, because neither of those races have any noble relatives living in Kirkwall. A human Hawke has a claim to nobility, however small or meaningless the Amell name has become due to Gamlens gambling habbits... which at least lead him to gain some sort of connection with Meeran and Athenril.

Hawke had no recognised claim to nobility at the time of his arrival, the knew who Gamlen was but had no idea that the Amells were nobles, and the guards weren't even going to let him in despite the fact that a) his family is from the city and  he still had family in the city, you had to work for smugglers/mercs for a whole year to pay off the debt/bribe it was needed to get in... the same situation would apply equally well to an elf or dwarf, getting in the city was pretty much a question of bribery and saving the guard captain from getting his arse kicked by those angry mercs.

Further more there were elf refugees in dark town IIRC.

But Hawke wouldn't have gone to Kirkwall in the first place without that family tie.

If one listens to Varric in his banters you can get the sense there's a lot of prejudice against ANYBODY who isn't from Kirkwall, and that the Dwarven merchant guild is as cut throat as Orzammar itself.  And listening to the man on the street some of the things one hears about how the alienage is overcrowded and filled with "elven" diseases and should be burned down. None of these things lend to getting Hawke into Kirkwall.

Plus of course there's the whole mage blood on both sides of the family.

The codex connected to the Amell crest explains a lot about noble society in Kirkwall and how fortunes rise and fall,

[Serpieri Nei]

Anyroad2 wrote...

Serpieri, I think its pretty clear that youre the one not fully reading posts here.

If you did read my post, and look at the video links I posted, you would have seen clearly that the video with Merrill in it says NOTHING about Merill being mugged. As a matter of fact, it says the opposite. She thinks that people don't mug her because they don't like her, meaning they havent muged her. I also asked for some proof from anyone of her mugging... still waiting for that. No one seems to be able to dig up anything which proves what youre saying. The only "proof" you give is your word.


The clip with Fenris clearly says that Danarious does not own the mansion and never did... It belonged to a Tevinter Merchant. Danarious may have used the mansion, or stole it after killing this Tevinter. You would have also seen that I pointed out that the reason Fenris has been able to squat in Hightown is because of Aveline who makes sure that no guards patrol near his mansion.

I am very serious. I don't think that the Viscount or anyone of significant power in Kirkwall knew Hawke was a mage or knew that Hawke traveled with mages until the end of Act 2 because no one ever mentions it before Hawke is Champion. Proir to Act 3 the only people who know for sure that Hawke is a mage or has apostate friends are people who like I previously posted... benifit(ed) from Hawke and Co, feel like they should support mage freedom or are mages themselves.

You  posted...
"You are aware that Bioware made the game that way right? - there is
absolutely no consequences for using magic or even performing blood
magic"

I agree, there is no consequence for Hawke being a mage. This is the way the game was made. However, I doubt that Hawke would be dumb enough to openly run around casting spells and flaunting being a mage in Kirkwall. Doing so would endanger him/her... which goes against the way the Hawkes have been living since Leandra ran off with Malcolm. There needed to be more focus on hiding Hawkes or Bethanys magic, unfortunately the game has its limits on what it can do. "...Bioware made the game that way..." and its something we have to deal with.

This whole argument of yours is based on Hawke being allowed to enter Kirkwall in the first place. I have yet to read any posts that challenge the arguments made by those that disagree with you and your idea that anyone could have gotten into Kirkwall. I belive elves and dwarves (though dwarves have a stronger case) would have been sent back like most other Fereldens were, because neither of those races have any noble relatives living in Kirkwall. A human Hawke has a claim to nobility, however small or meaningless the Amell name has become due to Gamlens gambling habbits... which at least lead him to gain some sort of connection with Meeran and Athenril.

Your reading things out of context and also failing to understand. Let me rephrase it for you, I do not need a video for something I have pointed out. If you wish to continue point out Varrics supposed wealth, then you should start supporting the use of that wealth in game. Which is actually off-topic subject that was brought up by the person who my reply was directed too. If you want to continue to dicuss that, please do by all means but lets not forget what this thread about by trying to go down different avenues.

The Mansion in the game, even in the offical guide refers to it as Danarius Mansion. How he came about it, is of little consequences since the point that was being made is that one does need to be Human, nor does Tone need a title, nor does one have to be an up standing citizen to have a manor. Which people so far have failed tp provide any evidence on why only Hawke, a human, with a past mobility was able to get one and is intergal to the story.

The point that was made regarding the Viscount and Arishok is that the story is not affected by Hawke's race/class/or sexual preference. Which proves that DA2's story is not the reason why Hawke is human. Hawke is not an entity onto itself, he is an extension of the player. If that player can go around flaunting hes a mage, bloodmage, it enforces the above point that regardless of race, class, gender and so on...again the story is not affected.

My whole argument is based on that the so called story is not driving force behind why Hawke is Human which has been suggested and that it is more pluasible it was done due to cost/resoruces. And the game design, and story elements support this. And for every tangent that has been brought up, it has been disproven from elements/story located in the game.

The game element that lets Hawke get his foot though the door is the inside man that leads to people that can buy his way in, and in return provide services for a year. Gamlen can easily be an elf or a dwarf, just like Hawke can without affecting the story of DA2. Don't forget Gamlen hasn't been a noble for many, many years, even the guards knew of no such person that fit that description. And it has been proven that one does not need nobility to purchase a manor but it keeps being brought up. Which does not make it true.

[Serpieri Nei]

Ariella wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

MyKingdomCold wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

MyKingdomCold wrote...

OK, but how would you resolve the part of the story if you were a dwarf where your father was a mage and either you or your sister was a mage as well?

Are you referring to that side quest that lasted only a few minutes, that wasn't even part of the main story.

what do you mean, wasn't part of the story? Your father was a mage. and if you weren't a mage, your sister was.  So, magic in your bloodlines is part of the story.

So it was the magic of my blood that brought the blight to Lothering which lead me magically ind Aveline and somehow summon Flemeth to my aid. The magic in my bloodlines is what allowed Bartrand to take me along to the Deep Roads, and not the 50 gold. Any why didn't my blood persuade Bartrand to take me along in the first place? Was It the magic in my Blood that had the Arishok make a personal request to the Viscount for me to speak to him. It was the magic in my blood that made me choose between the Mage and Templars? Because I'm quite sure it was Anders who put me in that situation in the first place.

The magic in the Hawke bloodline (on both sides I might add) sent Leandra to Lothering in the first place. Being an Amell managed to get Hawke back into Kirkwall, but on terms of being a refugee. The magic in both bloodlines plays into WHY Hawke needs to gain standing in Kirkwall as not to be persecuted or snapped up by the Circle or killed for being an Apostate outright. Without any of that nothing else could have happened.

Here is the story of DA2 "You are one of the few who escaped the destruction of your home. Now, forced to fight for survival in an ever-changing world, you must gather the deadliest of allies, amass fame and fortune, and seal your place in history. This is the story of how the world changed forever. The legend of your Rise to Power begins now."

Being an Amell is not what got Hawke back into Kirkwall - what got him in was a Mercenary or Smuggler who paid his way into the city. Hawke wanting money and standing to get out of lowtown, not to be treated as a refugee. He wanted to amass fame and fortune to change his situatuion. It has alrady been proven that Hawke as a Mage does not affect the story or gameplay nor does his sister. I'll be more then willing to show each main quest in each act and point that out for you.

[Ariella]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

MyKingdomCold wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

MyKingdomCold wrote...

OK, but how would you resolve the part of the story if you were a dwarf where your father was a mage and either you or your sister was a mage as well?

Are you referring to that side quest that lasted only a few minutes, that wasn't even part of the main story.

what do you mean, wasn't part of the story? Your father was a mage. and if you weren't a mage, your sister was.  So, magic in your bloodlines is part of the story.

So it was the magic of my blood that brought the blight to Lothering which lead me magically ind Aveline and somehow summon Flemeth to my aid. The magic in my bloodlines is what allowed Bartrand to take me along to the Deep Roads, and not the 50 gold. Any why didn't my blood persuade Bartrand to take me along in the first place? Was It the magic in my Blood that had the Arishok make a personal request to the Viscount for me to speak to him. It was the magic in my blood that made me choose between the Mage and Templars? Because I'm quite sure it was Anders who put me in that situation in the first place.

The magic in the Hawke bloodline (on both sides I might add) sent Leandra to Lothering in the first place. Being an Amell managed to get Hawke back into Kirkwall, but on terms of being a refugee. The magic in both bloodlines plays into WHY Hawke needs to gain standing in Kirkwall as not to be persecuted or snapped up by the Circle or killed for being an Apostate outright. Without any of that nothing else could have happened.

Here is the story of DA2 "You are one of the few who escaped the destruction of your home. Now, forced to fight for survival in an ever-changing world, you must gather the deadliest of allies, amass fame and fortune, and seal your place in history. This is the story of how the world changed forever. The legend of your Rise to Power begins now."

Being an Amell is not what got Hawke back into Kirkwall - what got him in was a Mercenary or Smuggler who paid his way into the city. Hawke wanting money and standing to get out of lowtown, not to be treated as a refugee. He wanted to amass fame and fortune to change his situatuion. It has alrady been proven that Hawke as a Mage does not affect the story or gameplay nor does his sister. I'll be more then willing to show each main quest in each act and point that out for you.

Serpent,

Did you even listen to Leandra in the Prologue or the beginning of act one? I replied to your statement that mage blood DID have a large effect on the Hawke family as a whole and that without it, Leandra wouldn't have left for Lothering to begin with, And I might add that Bethany probably would have been killed outright at the end of act one if the family had been elven. I don't see the vicount sticking his neck out for an elven apostate no matter how many favors have been done. In fact, this is pretty much confirmed in the Magistrate quest if you talk to the elven father. He has money but it can't even get him justice because of who the perpatrator is related to.

[AngryFrozenWater]

@Ariella: Mages should have a hard time in DA2 as well. They don't. The same could be true for elves. An elven Hawke would get the same immunity as a mage Hawke. There is no story limitation. The limitation is imposed, because it is cheaper: Less race specific armor to develop or problems to deal with, less cinematic problems (because of size and shape), less race specific dialogue, and so on.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 13 mai 2011 - 03:34 .

[Satyricon331]

MrProliferation wrote...
At least it's not the Witcher, where you can only play one race, gender, name, apperance and class. Look, I think it would've been possible for Hawke to be non-human, it just would've required a lot of story tweaks. Setting aside the question of the manor, the following elements would've had to be completely different:

*length snip*

Since no-one's replied, I'll take a stab.  I agree it would take story tweaks, but I think it's hyperbole to say any of it would need to be "completely different."  Perhaps the serial killer simply goes after your eld/dwarf mom's eyes or lips, and kills her for them - but is still reconstructing a human lover.  Then the only real change would be that zombie wouldn't talk to Hawke as her/his mom, in which case you just drop some lines (ones that detracted from the scene's darkness anyway, imo).  And many people have talked about the sibling issue - all sorts of adoption scenarios or remarriage scenarios have come up on the forums.  So, ultimately, we seem to agree resources are the real issue, but imo it's simply inaccurate to say there are big story changes that would need to happen.

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
@Ariella: Mages should have a hard time in DA2 as well. They don't. The same could be true for elves. An elven Hawke would get the same immunity as a mage Hawke. There is no story limitation. The limitation is imposed, because it is cheaper: Less race specific armor to develop or problems to deal with, less cinematic problems (because of size and shape), less race specific dialogue, and so on.

And of course, this point bears repeating.  Gameplay-storyline integration makes no sense as a reason in DA2, where Bioware didn't seem to pay much attention to the issue in so many other respects.  I really don't understand how people can keep raising story points as if story issues alone could explain only allowing human Hawkes.

Modifié par Satyricon331, 13 mai 2011 - 04:16 .

[Serpieri Nei]

Ariella wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

MyKingdomCold wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

MyKingdomCold wrote...

OK, but how would you resolve the part of the story if you were a dwarf where your father was a mage and either you or your sister was a mage as well?

Are you referring to that side quest that lasted only a few minutes, that wasn't even part of the main story.

what do you mean, wasn't part of the story? Your father was a mage. and if you weren't a mage, your sister was.  So, magic in your bloodlines is part of the story.

So it was the magic of my blood that brought the blight to Lothering which lead me magically ind Aveline and somehow summon Flemeth to my aid. The magic in my bloodlines is what allowed Bartrand to take me along to the Deep Roads, and not the 50 gold. Any why didn't my blood persuade Bartrand to take me along in the first place? Was It the magic in my Blood that had the Arishok make a personal request to the Viscount for me to speak to him. It was the magic in my blood that made me choose between the Mage and Templars? Because I'm quite sure it was Anders who put me in that situation in the first place.

The magic in the Hawke bloodline (on both sides I might add) sent Leandra to Lothering in the first place. Being an Amell managed to get Hawke back into Kirkwall, but on terms of being a refugee. The magic in both bloodlines plays into WHY Hawke needs to gain standing in Kirkwall as not to be persecuted or snapped up by the Circle or killed for being an Apostate outright. Without any of that nothing else could have happened.

Here is the story of DA2 "You are one of the few who escaped the destruction of your home. Now, forced to fight for survival in an ever-changing world, you must gather the deadliest of allies, amass fame and fortune, and seal your place in history. This is the story of how the world changed forever. The legend of your Rise to Power begins now."

Being an Amell is not what got Hawke back into Kirkwall - what got him in was a Mercenary or Smuggler who paid his way into the city. Hawke wanting money and standing to get out of lowtown, not to be treated as a refugee. He wanted to amass fame and fortune to change his situatuion. It has alrady been proven that Hawke as a Mage does not affect the story or gameplay nor does his sister. I'll be more then willing to show each main quest in each act and point that out for you.

Serpent,

Did you even listen to Leandra in the Prologue or the beginning of act one? I replied to your statement that mage blood DID have a large effect on the Hawke family as a whole and that without it, Leandra wouldn't have left for Lothering to begin with, And I might add that Bethany probably would have been killed outright at the end of act one if the family had been elven. I don't see the vicount sticking his neck out for an elven apostate no matter how many favors have been done. In fact, this is pretty much confirmed in the Magistrate quest if you talk to the elven father. He has money but it can't even get him justice because of who the perpatrator is related to.

Would you like to me post again for you what the story of DA2 is? Would you like me to take a screenshot of Hawke using blood magic in front of the Viscount? Becuase we all know the Viscount was more afraid of the elves then the tension building from the templar and mages, and the giants on their doorsteps? Do we once again have to point out that it wasn't the Viscount that asked for Hawke? It was the Arishok, see Blackpower promise and ShepheardingWolves.  As it has been said many times, your race, and class does not affect the story of DA2. I will even point each main quest for each act if you like. Hawke is and always will be a placeholder, which makes him very malleable.

You are going to point out what the Magistrate and the Elven Father has to do with "Why Hawke needed to be Human"?

Do try to get the name right or should I start calling you Ariep? 

[Ariella]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

@Ariella: Mages should have a hard time in DA2 as well. They don't. The same could be true for elves. An elven Hawke would get the same immunity as a mage Hawke. There is no story limitation. The limitation is imposed, because it is cheaper: Less race specific armor to develop or problems to deal with, less cinematic problems (because of size and shape), less race specific dialogue, and so on.

Storywise they do have a hard time. Choosing to either be locked up somewhere, taken away from one's family, just because one has magic is harsh. Does it come through completely in gameplay, no, but storywise it's there.

Limits have to be imposed in stories or one becomes Robert Jordan with a cast of thousands and no end in sight. Plus this was the story Bioware wanted to tell, which is something to be taken into consideration.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Ariella wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

@Ariella: Mages should have a hard time in DA2 as well. They don't. The same could be true for elves. An elven Hawke would get the same immunity as a mage Hawke. There is no story limitation. The limitation is imposed, because it is cheaper: Less race specific armor to develop or problems to deal with, less cinematic problems (because of size and shape), less race specific dialogue, and so on.

Storywise they do have a hard time. Choosing to either be locked up somewhere, taken away from one's family, just because one has magic is harsh. Does it come through completely in gameplay, no, but storywise it's there.

Limits have to be imposed in stories or one becomes Robert Jordan with a cast of thousands and no end in sight. Plus this was the story Bioware wanted to tell, which is something to be taken into consideration.

I don't mind limitations. However, I do mind limitations that previously were not there, just to cut the cost or development time. That has nothing to do with improving the game or adding immersion or making it more fun. It is a step backwards. Like I said before: I am a gamer. Not a stockholder.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 13 mai 2011 - 07:00 .

[MyKingdomCold]

again, since this is a no spoiler forum I'll try to keep it spoiler free.

in the prologue and Act 1, Leandra explains why she wants to go to Kirkwall. it's because her family was/is nobility and she still thought she had an estate there. without this aspect to the story, Hawke probably would've gone somewhere else.

again, someone or I may have said too much in terms of spoilers. if so, may be this can be moved to the spoilers allowed board.

[Ariella]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ariella wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

@Ariella: Mages should have a hard time in DA2 as well. They don't. The same could be true for elves. An elven Hawke would get the same immunity as a mage Hawke. There is no story limitation. The limitation is imposed, because it is cheaper: Less race specific armor to develop or problems to deal with, less cinematic problems (because of size and shape), less race specific dialogue, and so on.

Storywise they do have a hard time. Choosing to either be locked up somewhere, taken away from one's family, just because one has magic is harsh. Does it come through completely in gameplay, no, but storywise it's there.

Limits have to be imposed in stories or one becomes Robert Jordan with a cast of thousands and no end in sight. Plus this was the story Bioware wanted to tell, which is something to be taken into consideration.

I don't mind limitations. However, I do mind limitations that previously were not there, just to cut the cost or development time. That has nothing to do with improving the game or adding immersion or making it more fun. It is a step backwards. Like I said before: I am a gamer. Not a stockholder.

Actually in these terms the limitations were there in lore since day one, but the writers (Jen Helpern specificallty I think), addresses this in the Limited ed strategy guide. Basically they'd painted themselves into a corner with the whole Circle thing, which, as I understand it, is why the story works the way it does. And yes, we see the footprints running off into the sunset, but it loosens up the lore and makes mages a more viable class for future DA games. Of course, I never really noticed the Hawke as mage problem because I loath playing mages. 

[AngryFrozenWater]

Ariella wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ariella wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

@Ariella: Mages should have a hard time in DA2 as well. They don't. The same could be true for elves. An elven Hawke would get the same immunity as a mage Hawke. There is no story limitation. The limitation is imposed, because it is cheaper: Less race specific armor to develop or problems to deal with, less cinematic problems (because of size and shape), less race specific dialogue, and so on.

Storywise they do have a hard time. Choosing to either be locked up somewhere, taken away from one's family, just because one has magic is harsh. Does it come through completely in gameplay, no, but storywise it's there.

Limits have to be imposed in stories or one becomes Robert Jordan with a cast of thousands and no end in sight. Plus this was the story Bioware wanted to tell, which is something to be taken into consideration.

I don't mind limitations. However, I do mind limitations that previously were not there, just to cut the cost or development time. That has nothing to do with improving the game or adding immersion or making it more fun. It is a step backwards. Like I said before: I am a gamer. Not a stockholder.

Actually in these terms the limitations were there in lore since day one, but the writers (Jen Helpern specificallty I think), addresses this in the Limited ed strategy guide. Basically they'd painted themselves into a corner with the whole Circle thing, which, as I understand it, is why the story works the way it does. And yes, we see the footprints running off into the sunset, but it loosens up the lore and makes mages a more viable class for future DA games. Of course, I never really noticed the Hawke as mage problem because I loath playing mages.

Ah... That explains why you didn't understand (at least I thought so) my "An elven Hawke would get the same immunity as a mage Hawke" reference. Meredith grants mage Hawke that immunity. She could do the same for an elf. Both are supposed to be hunted down (and locked up in the Circle or Alienage) without that immunity. So, as far as I am concerned story is not the issue. All that is left to prevent Hawke from being non-human is an economic reason.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 13 mai 2011 - 03:47 .

[MyKingdomCold]

actually there are elves in Darktown. Maybe it's worse than the alienage, but they aren't locked up there.

[Mickespel]

Time is the limit, the story would have worked well with some adjusting for non humans.

Dwarf: Father is not a mage, and Bethany are a rogue instead or maybe an adopted human. Mother are from a line of fine dwarven high cast forced upon the surface. They may not be recognized as nobility in Orzammar anymore but the humans in Kirkwall does.

Elven: Father are an dalish magic user, not trained as a keeper since those need to be able to do more then cast spells. Mother are from a highly respected and rich family of city elven traders (compare to how Jews have been forced to live in ghettos but some where actually wealthy), there just got to be some trades that is "beneath" humans. A "mansion" in the alienage would not look like much from the outside but inside they could be well equipped and probably have a nice view out over the sea. An elven Hawk would start in Darktown and work their way up to the alienage rather then Hightown.

Dwarf or elf would not matter at all once Hawk have become the Champion,

[Ariella]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ah... That explains why you didn't understand (at least I thought so) my "An elven Hawke would get the same immunity as a mage Hawke" reference. Meredith grants mage Hawke that immunity. She could do the same for an elf. Both are supposed to be hunted down (and locked up in the Circle or Alienage) without that immunity. So, as far as I am concerned story is not the issue. All that is left to prevent Hawke from being non-human is an economic reason.

Okay I see where you're coming from, but being Knight Commander, Meredith is within her sphere of influence to grant the immunity to mages, An elf however, is going to have to overcome a lot more prejudice in some ways. I keep thinking of the Alienage as being the Thedas version of a ghetto, either the versions we saw in America in the late 1800s early 1900s or the Jewish ghettos of Europe from about 1400 on.  They congerated in the ghettos/alienages as much to keep their culture and history as for protection and because the outside world was prejudiced against them. It's not point to point of course,

And then there's the fact that mages tend to be feared, but a human of Thedas looks at an elf, generally speaking they're going to see a "knife ears" and a former slave race. That's something Meredith with all her power couldn't overcome.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Ariella wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ah... That explains why you didn't understand (at least I thought so) my "An elven Hawke would get the same immunity as a mage Hawke" reference. Meredith grants mage Hawke that immunity. She could do the same for an elf. Both are supposed to be hunted down (and locked up in the Circle or Alienage) without that immunity. So, as far as I am concerned story is not the issue. All that is left to prevent Hawke from being non-human is an economic reason.

Okay I see where you're coming from, but being Knight Commander, Meredith is within her sphere of influence to grant the immunity to mages, An elf however, is going to have to overcome a lot more prejudice in some ways. I keep thinking of the Alienage as being the Thedas version of a ghetto, either the versions we saw in America in the late 1800s early 1900s or the Jewish ghettos of Europe from about 1400 on.  They congerated in the ghettos/alienages as much to keep their culture and history as for protection and because the outside world was prejudiced against them. It's not point to point of course,

And then there's the fact that mages tend to be feared, but a human of Thedas looks at an elf, generally speaking they're going to see a "knife ears" and a former slave race. That's something Meredith with all her power couldn't overcome.

The mages are exactly in the same position as the elves. They are hunted down because of what they are and not because of what they have done. The templars even go after that elf who takes refuge among the Dalish. And that was not because he was an elf, but because he was a mage. That is how far that goes. It doesn't matter where they are, the templars hunt mages down. Meredith doesn't grant immunity to any mage. Hawke gets it because of her rise to power. That's the difference. And she could order that same immunity for elven Hawke. Everyone would back down. Including the guard. Look at Merrill. She's an elf and a mage. She stays alive, because she is with Hawke. Same goes for Anders. One is a blood mage and the other one possessed. No. Really. There is no way this limitation can be explained from a story point of view.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 13 mai 2011 - 04:56 .

[Ariella]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ariella wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ah... That explains why you didn't understand (at least I thought so) my "An elven Hawke would get the same immunity as a mage Hawke" reference. Meredith grants mage Hawke that immunity. She could do the same for an elf. Both are supposed to be hunted down (and locked up in the Circle or Alienage) without that immunity. So, as far as I am concerned story is not the issue. All that is left to prevent Hawke from being non-human is an economic reason.

Okay I see where you're coming from, but being Knight Commander, Meredith is within her sphere of influence to grant the immunity to mages, An elf however, is going to have to overcome a lot more prejudice in some ways. I keep thinking of the Alienage as being the Thedas version of a ghetto, either the versions we saw in America in the late 1800s early 1900s or the Jewish ghettos of Europe from about 1400 on.  They congerated in the ghettos/alienages as much to keep their culture and history as for protection and because the outside world was prejudiced against them. It's not point to point of course,

And then there's the fact that mages tend to be feared, but a human of Thedas looks at an elf, generally speaking they're going to see a "knife ears" and a former slave race. That's something Meredith with all her power couldn't overcome.

The mages are exactly in the same position as the elves. They are hunted down because of what they are and not because of what they have done. The templars even go after that elf who takes refuge among the Dalish. And that was not because he was an elf, but because he was a mage. That is how far that goes. It doesn't matter where they are, the templars hunt mages down. Meredith doesn't grant immunity to any mage. Hawke gets it because of her rise to power. That's the difference. And she could order that same immunity for elven Hawke. Everyone would back down. Including the guard. Look at Merrill. She's an elf and a mage. She stays alive, because she is with Hawke. Same goes for Anders. One is a blood mage and the other one possessed. No. Really. There is no way this limitation can be explained from a story point of view.

First of all Fenyriel is human not an elf, and he was being hunted by the templars prior to Dalish involvement.

Second, mages have power. It's the justification used for locking them up in the first place. Your average elf has about as much power as a serf in Kirkwall. It wasn't the elves who assaulted the Golden City and caused the Blights, it was mages. The perception of the two is very different. Mages are locked up for their own good and to protect the populace from the power they wield. Elves, on the otherhand, if one listens to gossip on the Kirkwall street, are untrustworthy, have diseases and generally less than human.

An elf wouldn't have a lot of the same opportunities in Kirkwall that a human, no matter if she was a mage or not, would have. Can you even imagine Bran the Seneschal allowing an elf who wasn't a servant to enter the keep, let alone enter armed? Or trust said elf to deal with a certain bounty. I certainly can't.

[Satyricon331]

Ariella wrote...
An elf wouldn't have a lot of the same opportunities in Kirkwall that a human, no matter if she was a mage or not, would have. Can you even imagine Bran the Seneschal allowing an elf who wasn't a servant to enter the keep, let alone enter armed? Or trust said elf to deal with a certain bounty. I certainly can't.

Can you even imagine someone as fanatical as Meredith giving an apostate a free pass, let alone when there's no particular crisis s/he can help with?  I certainly can't.  Yet they went there.

Again, all these little story objections make no sense as a reason to exclude playable races.  It doesn't take much creativity to surmount them.  The seneschal could simply be very happy to have someone, anyone take the bounty in the hopes of keeping that mercenary group (I forget their name) with that obnoxious leader (whatshername) from taking the bounty.  You could even have a line having him say that group's so distasteful he'll stoop to working with you.  As for the keep, it seemed fairly public to me, much like a courthouse, and if not it wouldn't have been much of a stretch anyway to make it so.

And for the umpteenth time, even if having an elf created a bit of gameplay-storyline segregation, so what?  Bioware paid that issue virtually no attention in the rest of DA2, so why is it an explanation on this matter?  I really don't get it.