465 réponses à ce sujet

[MyKingdomCold]

the bottom line for me is this. Again this is just my opinion. Could Hawke have been a different race? Yes, but then it wouldn't be the same story.

First of all, his/her mother is from nobility who had/thought she still has an estate in Kirwall. That's why she wanted to go there. Without that, I can see Hawke going somewhere else. Since they're from nobility, I don't see an elf being nobility. They're treated as second class citizens. Who knows how long the Amells have been nobility in Kirkwall. So it's not like Hawke could just amass a large sum of gold and buy an estate there. Since elves are treated as second class citizens, would they even be allowed to buy an estate in Hightown?

Second aspect of the story that would preclude a dwarf is the aspect of magic in your bloodline.

So yes, DA 2 could've had you be a dwarf or elf but it wouldn't be the same story. It wouldn't be Hawke's story.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Ariella wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ariella wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ah... That explains why you didn't understand (at least I thought so) my "An elven Hawke would get the same immunity as a mage Hawke" reference. Meredith grants mage Hawke that immunity. She could do the same for an elf. Both are supposed to be hunted down (and locked up in the Circle or Alienage) without that immunity. So, as far as I am concerned story is not the issue. All that is left to prevent Hawke from being non-human is an economic reason.

Okay I see where you're coming from, but being Knight Commander, Meredith is within her sphere of influence to grant the immunity to mages, An elf however, is going to have to overcome a lot more prejudice in some ways. I keep thinking of the Alienage as being the Thedas version of a ghetto, either the versions we saw in America in the late 1800s early 1900s or the Jewish ghettos of Europe from about 1400 on.  They congerated in the ghettos/alienages as much to keep their culture and history as for protection and because the outside world was prejudiced against them. It's not point to point of course,

And then there's the fact that mages tend to be feared, but a human of Thedas looks at an elf, generally speaking they're going to see a "knife ears" and a former slave race. That's something Meredith with all her power couldn't overcome.

The mages are exactly in the same position as the elves. They are hunted down because of what they are and not because of what they have done. The templars even go after that elf who takes refuge among the Dalish. And that was not because he was an elf, but because he was a mage. That is how far that goes. It doesn't matter where they are, the templars hunt mages down. Meredith doesn't grant immunity to any mage. Hawke gets it because of her rise to power. That's the difference. And she could order that same immunity for elven Hawke. Everyone would back down. Including the guard. Look at Merrill. She's an elf and a mage. She stays alive, because she is with Hawke. Same goes for Anders. One is a blood mage and the other one possessed. No. Really. There is no way this limitation can be explained from a story point of view.

First of all Fenyriel is human not an elf, and he was being hunted by the templars prior to Dalish involvement.

Second, mages have power. It's the justification used for locking them up in the first place. Your average elf has about as much power as a serf in Kirkwall. It wasn't the elves who assaulted the Golden City and caused the Blights, it was mages. The perception of the two is very different. Mages are locked up for their own good and to protect the populace from the power they wield. Elves, on the otherhand, if one listens to gossip on the Kirkwall street, are untrustworthy, have diseases and generally less than human.

An elf wouldn't have a lot of the same opportunities in Kirkwall that a human, no matter if she was a mage or not, would have. Can you even imagine Bran the Seneschal allowing an elf who wasn't a servant to enter the keep, let alone enter armed? Or trust said elf to deal with a certain bounty. I certainly can't.

You have a point with Feynriel - the human child of a Dalish woman.

Mages don't have any power outside of the circle. The only option they have is to hide. Alienage elves at least have some place to go. Although they cannot expect any protection from the guards or templars, you can see them outside the Alienage throughout Kirkwall.

Yet, the story allows a mage in hiding to raise to power and she and her elven and human mage companions are granted immunity. The raise to power also implies that mage Hawke didn't have power before. The story allows it. There is no reason why the story couldn't allow the same for elven Hawke. If Merrill can survive in Kirkwall, so can elven Hawke. One of my blood mage Hawkes supported the templars. And guess what? They bowed down to her and she became viscount. If a blood mage can rise to power, so can an elf. Depending on your point of view both situations are just as silly or likely. That was after the immunity. But in Act I nobody cared either.

I belong to the group who thinks that a blood mage rising to power is just as silly as an elven mage rising to power. The story and lore are broken time and time again. Hey look, I wear a robe and carry a staff. I cast blood magic spells. I bought my blood mage gear on the market in Low Town. Yoohoo. I am a blood mage! See the markings on my wrists? Remember that boy in the Hanged Man who claimed the same? Blood mage Hawke had to bring the blood mage in. That was after the immunity, but in Act I nobody cared either.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 14 mai 2011 - 12:19 .

[Killer3000ad]

The entire concept of the Hawke family is what needed to go. It locked Hawke into a single race from the get go when they didn't need to. I could have done without Beth/Carver and mama Hawke. Heck they should have avoided making them siblings in the first place and have Beth as a romanceble character (YAY), turn Carver into a dwarf companion(double yay) and then they'd be able to implement multiple races for Hawke. Then come up with some story to explain why Hawke has the same accent regardless of race and everyone's happy. Sure beats what DA2 has now.

[Satyricon331]

MyKingdomCold wrote...
the bottom line for me is this. Again this is just my opinion. Could Hawke have been a different race? Yes, but then it wouldn't be the same story.

First of all, his/her mother is from nobility who had/thought she still has an estate in Kirwall. That's why she wanted to go there. Without that, I can see Hawke going somewhere else. Since they're from nobility, I don't see an elf being nobility. They're treated as second class citizens. Who knows how long the Amells have been nobility in Kirkwall. So it's not like Hawke could just amass a large sum of gold and buy an estate there. Since elves are treated as second class citizens, would they even be allowed to buy an estate in Hightown?

Second aspect of the story that would preclude a dwarf is the aspect of magic in your bloodline.

So yes, DA 2 could've had you be a dwarf or elf but it wouldn't be the same story. It wouldn't be Hawke's story.

Yeah, but I just don't see how that works as an explanation.  As I've said, I just don't see how story concerns justify much of anything in a game where the gameplay-storyline segregation is so big.  Even if it did, the estate and family things don't pose big obstacles for integrating elves and dwarves into the story if Bioware had wanted.  If they had changed the story a bit for elves and dwarves, I don't see why it's such a big deal given they could have had the exact same story for human Hawkes anyway, meaning it doesn't at all impede them telling the exact same story.  Lastly, even if it did, despite your post I don't understand why these little story points are so sacrosanct.  Scarce resources is just such a better explanation.  The story figleaf doesn't make nearly as much sense.

[Mickespel]

I really liked the different origins of the first game thou they fell short of letting that have a great impact of the game since once you became a grey warden background became practically irrelevant. Even bloodmages where allowed to go free of the Chantry waving a warden badge.

The story in DA2 would have been a perfect opportunity to remedy this. They idea of adding vastly different backgrounds to choose from could have a profound impact on how the game unfold and allowed for an immense replay value. Throw in a couple of organisations to work up reputation with and set some of them against each other and you could have more fun.

The nobles would drawn in your human noble (Amell) character in Kirkwalls version of "The Game" as soon as you moved back into your estate, and once you become The Champion, all racial barriers would have been meaningless, you would been treated as a noble even if you where an elf grown up in a barn. An exception that you would have to work for.

As it is now, a single origin kills a lot of replay value. Do not remove the origin idea, expand on it.

[MyKingdomCold]

Satyricon331 wrote...

MyKingdomCold wrote...
the bottom line for me is this. Again this is just my opinion. Could Hawke have been a different race? Yes, but then it wouldn't be the same story.

First of all, his/her mother is from nobility who had/thought she still has an estate in Kirwall. That's why she wanted to go there. Without that, I can see Hawke going somewhere else. Since they're from nobility, I don't see an elf being nobility. They're treated as second class citizens. Who knows how long the Amells have been nobility in Kirkwall. So it's not like Hawke could just amass a large sum of gold and buy an estate there. Since elves are treated as second class citizens, would they even be allowed to buy an estate in Hightown?

Second aspect of the story that would preclude a dwarf is the aspect of magic in your bloodline.

So yes, DA 2 could've had you be a dwarf or elf but it wouldn't be the same story. It wouldn't be Hawke's story.

Yeah, but I just don't see how that works as an explanation.  As I've said, I just don't see how story concerns justify much of anything in a game where the gameplay-storyline segregation is so big.  Even if it did, the estate and family things don't pose big obstacles for integrating elves and dwarves into the story if Bioware had wanted.  If they had changed the story a bit for elves and dwarves, I don't see why it's such a big deal given they could have had the exact same story for human Hawkes anyway, meaning it doesn't at all impede them telling the exact same story.  Lastly, even if it did, despite your post I don't understand why these little story points are so sacrosanct.  Scarce resources is just such a better explanation.  The story figleaf doesn't make nearly as much sense.

call it what you want, but again it's my opinion. you have your opinion. we don't have to argue over little detail.

In my opinion as I said, dwarves can't be magi so the fact that Hawke's father was a mage and either he/she or the sister is a mage rules out a dwarf. Also, Hawke's mother was/is nobility in Kirkwall. That would rule out elves.
Combine those two and that's why they made him human.

Could they have changed the story to fit elves/dwarves? again, yes they could've but again in my opinion then it wouldn't be the same story. it wouldn't be about Hawke. it would be about another refugee from Lothering going to Kirkwall. Except I didn't see many dwarves in Lothering, if any, and very few elves.

[JaegerBane]

Satyricon331 wrote...
Yeah, but I just don't see how that works as an explanation.  As I've said, I just don't see how story concerns justify much of anything in a game where the gameplay-storyline segregation is so big.  Even if it did, the estate and family things don't pose big obstacles for integrating elves and dwarves into the story if Bioware had wanted.  If they had changed the story a bit for elves and dwarves, I don't see why it's such a big deal given they could have had the exact same story for human Hawkes anyway, meaning it doesn't at all impede them telling the exact same story.  Lastly, even if it did, despite your post I don't understand why these little story points are so sacrosanct.  Scarce resources is just such a better explanation.  The story figleaf doesn't make nearly as much sense.

I think you need to judge what is feasible and what isn't. Just because you didn't like the storyline, or didn't think it was integrated into the gameplay, it isn't really a justifiable reason to stuff things into the game that don't make any sense.

As others have said, the storyline as it stands simply wouldn't function with a non-human hawke. It's one thing to stick horns on qunari or clean up the Darkspawn, it's quite another to suddenly re-write the entire lore of the DA world to support the idea of a full-blooded elf or a dwarf being born to a human noblewoman and an apostate mage. You might as well have your character being beamed down by aliens. In the first game, they generated the whole concept of the Grey Wardens and the Origin story purely to support the ability to choose your race. In a game like this, where the core concept of the story is personal as oppose to an outside threat, you can't simply just patch in races and expect it to work.

[Serpieri Nei]

JaegerBane wrote...

Satyricon331 wrote...
Yeah, but I just don't see how that works as an explanation.  As I've said, I just don't see how story concerns justify much of anything in a game where the gameplay-storyline segregation is so big.  Even if it did, the estate and family things don't pose big obstacles for integrating elves and dwarves into the story if Bioware had wanted.  If they had changed the story a bit for elves and dwarves, I don't see why it's such a big deal given they could have had the exact same story for human Hawkes anyway, meaning it doesn't at all impede them telling the exact same story.  Lastly, even if it did, despite your post I don't understand why these little story points are so sacrosanct.  Scarce resources is just such a better explanation.  The story figleaf doesn't make nearly as much sense.

I think you need to judge what is feasible and what isn't. Just because you didn't like the storyline, or didn't think it was integrated into the gameplay, it isn't really a justifiable reason to stuff things into the game that don't make any sense.

As others have said, the storyline as it stands simply wouldn't function with a non-human hawke. It's one thing to stick horns on qunari or clean up the Darkspawn, it's quite another to suddenly re-write the entire lore of the DA world to support the idea of a full-blooded elf or a dwarf being born to a human noblewoman and an apostate mage. You might as well have your character being beamed down by aliens. In the first game, they generated the whole concept of the Grey Wardens and the Origin story purely to support the ability to choose your race. In a game like this, where the core concept of the story is personal as oppose to an outside threat, you can't simply just patch in races and expect it to work.

As others have pointed out this has nothing to do with Hawke's mother or her past. This is about being one of the few who escaped the destruction of your home. Now, forced to fight for survival in an ever-changing world, you must gather the deadliest of allies, amass fame and fortune, and seal your place in history. This is the story of how the world changed forever. The legend of your Rise to Power begins now.

Takie a look at all the main quests in ACT I II III, and let me know what that has to do with being born to a human mother that once was a noble and a father who was an Apostate? I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 14 mai 2011 - 07:53 .

[Drasanil]

JaegerBane wrote...
As others have said, the storyline as it stands simply wouldn't function with a non-human hawke. It's one thing to stick horns on qunari or clean up the Darkspawn, it's quite another to suddenly re-write the entire lore of the DA world to support the idea of a full-blooded elf or a dwarf being born to a human noblewoman and an apostate mage.

The story as it stands doesn't work with a mage-Hawke yet they did it any ways, kind of shoots your point to bits there.

The only real story element in theee is that Hawke's family was originally from Kirkwall, it doesn't specifically require an apostate mage or a noble woman to work, that's just flavour heaped on to make Hawke fell artificially more important and cover up the fact that he wasn't really when you came down to it.

Hell there's one very very easy way to justify a elf-noble, if we go by the Origins ending. Elf-Hawke could have been a decendant of Garahel (whose to say he did not have children prior to being recruited as a warden? Duncan wanted to recruit mama Tabris after she became a mama) and his family "awarded" minor titles of nobility in recognition of their ancestor's memory, even the most bitter human racist couldn't argue against that exception to the rule, the rest of the story line would pretty much unfold as is.

[Satyricon331]

MyKingdomCold wrote...
call it what you want, but again it's my opinion. you have your opinion. we don't have to argue over little detail.

In my opinion as I said, dwarves can't be magi so the fact that Hawke's father was a mage and either he/she or the sister is a mage rules out a dwarf. Also, Hawke's mother was/is nobility in Kirkwall. That would rule out elves.
Combine those two and that's why they made him human.

Could they have changed the story to fit elves/dwarves? again, yes they could've but again in my opinion then it wouldn't be the same story. it wouldn't be about Hawke. it would be about another refugee from Lothering going to Kirkwall. Except I didn't see many dwarves in Lothering, if any, and very few elves.

I agree we don't have to argue about little details, which is why I kept my points in my post to you fairly abstract.  I don't really see how your reply is responsive to my points.  The closest you seem to come is in repeating that changing these details would change the story, but even if that were a coherent explanation in the context of DA2 (which, again imo is not), as Serpieri Nei notes, it's unclear how that respresents any significant change to the story.  But even if it did, I don't see how that makes it a good explanation, for the other reasons I've mentioned.

JaegerBane wrote...
I think you need to judge what is feasible and what isn't. Just because you didn't like the storyline, or didn't think it was integrated into the gameplay, it isn't really a justifiable reason to stuff things into the game that don't make any sense.

As others have said, the storyline as it stands simply wouldn't function with a non-human hawke. It's one thing to stick horns on qunari or clean up the Darkspawn, it's quite another to suddenly re-write the entire lore of the DA world to support the idea of a full-blooded elf or a dwarf being born to a human noblewoman and an apostate mage. You might as well have your character being beamed down by aliens. In the first game, they generated the whole concept of the Grey Wardens and the Origin story purely to support the ability to choose your race. In a game like this, where the core concept of the story is personal as oppose to an outside threat, you can't simply just patch in races and expect it to work.

Judging what's feasible is a resources issue, which is exactly what I've been saying.  As for the storyline, as it stands it doesn't function with mage Hawkes either, which is why story isn't a rational explanation: if storyline-gameplay integration concerns alone suffice to explain gameplay design choices as you say, it leads to an inconsistency since then they would have done so many other things differently.  But if you particularize the explanation to thisdesign issue, then you need a reason why, in which case it is no longer just story/play integration doing the explaining.  

[neppakyo]

Satyricon331 wrote...

[
Judging what's feasible is a resources issue, which is exactly what I've been saying.  As for the storyline, as it stands it doesn't function with mage Hawkes either, which is why story isn't a rational explanation: if storyline-gameplay integration concerns alone suffice to explain gameplay design choices as you say, it leads to an inconsistency since then they would have done so many other things differently.  But if you particularize the explanation to thisdesign issue, then you need a reason why, in which case it is no longer just story/play integration doing the explaining.  

To the bolded, ads, hawke on the game case, show mage hawke. I do believe Mage Hawke could be canon. Kind of odd to me, advertise a mage hawke, and the story ignores it.

[Marionetten]

I think this thread suffers from a classical case of can't see the forest for the trees.

Leandra, Gamlen ( ... Gamlin, Gimlen? ) and so forth are all relegated to very specific quests and as such easily replacable. The whole history of the Hawke family has its own separate quests with no real connection to the main plot other than the whole blood magic is bad message BioWare is trying to hammer home so hard. Think of those quests as origin quests or whatever. The point is that they are not all that important. The story of Dragon Age II and the rise of the Champion could have been told without those quests. It's not the rise of the Champion of Humanity. It's not the rise of the Champion of Nobles. It's also not the rise of the Champion of Mages... sorry, Anders. It's simply the rise of the Champion. Take it for what it is.

Nobility has nothing to do with the overarching plot. Yes, you heard that right. NOTHING. The Arishok doesn't care and the Viscount just views Hawke as a handyman solving the issues he doesn't care to solve. It's not like he makes anything public anyway. Every single quest Hawke is assigned is assigned with secrecy. It's pure and unadultered skulduggery and arguing that a dwarf or an elf wouldn't be capable of it in the wake of the possibly dwarven or elven Hero of Fereldan is fairly silly. Nobility is the origin of Hawke and his family. It is no more relevant to the overarching plot than the origin sequences of Dragon Age: Origins were. There is no great Revan reveal waiting to be uncovered. You're the Champion just like how you were the Grey Warden and that is what matters here. That is our forest unobscured. Behold!

What's even sillier is arguing that an elven Hawke wouldn't be capable of purchasing a mansion despite an extensive connection network going all the way to the Viscount himself. Yet the solitary Fenris manages to squat in a mansion for years on end. I honestly don't think the resident nobles would care that much about a single elf when they've got an army of qunari at the gates. Especially not when Hawke is their premier problem solver and the only one capable of gaining the Arishok's respect. And even if they did I don't see the issue here. Make an elf exclusive quest in which an angry bunch of nobles come knocking on your door and have Hawke either diffuse the situation or beat them down and face a scolding.

Magic... now, I've already been over this but one cannot seriously argue that it greatly matters when the game doesn't even acknowledge it beyond a few dialogue checks. Sure, you can make Hawke a blood mage but that isn't going to make Hawke any more understanding when it comes to the use of blood magic. Magic as a plot element is exceedingly poorly implemented and does not make for a particularly good argument when it comes to the exclusion of playable dwarves or elves. It just doesn't matter. I'd love for it to matter but it really doesn't.

To suggest that Hawke needs to be a mage or be related to a mage in order to understand the conflict is nonsensical at best. My Grey Warden had no issues understanding the plight of the elves, dwarven politics or vengeful furballs. I'd argue that I felt far more engaged in the dalish/werewolf conflict than anything in Dragon Age II and my character was neither dalish nor werewolf. Now maybe if your mage sibling or your own magehood had a greater part in the plot I'd be inclined to agree but as it stands it's not very relevant or compelling. Your sibling is missing for most of the game anyway and is easily replaceable by design. Critical to the plot? I think not and I played as a mage.

What I'm trying to say here is that there's no need to cut down the entire forest. Plant a few new trees, water and voila.

Modifié par Marionetten, 14 mai 2011 - 09:52 .

[MyKingdomCold]

Again, that's your opinion. As for nobility not playing a apart in the main plot, I would have to disagree. That's the reason given for them going to Kirkwall instead of some other reason.

Again, this is a no spoiler thread, but regarding Fenris. In banter between him and Aveline, it's kind of explained how he's able to live in that mansion for all those years.

As for magic, again it's part of the background storywise.

Again, we can disagree. For me personally, the nobility and magic in the family play an important part in who Hawke is and his story. why he went to Kirkwall and the dynamic between siblings and uncle Gamlen.

[Marionetten]

MyKingdomCold wrote...

Again, that's your opinion. As for nobility not playing a apart in the main plot, I would have to disagree. That's the reason given for them going to Kirkwall instead of some other reason.

And that reason is highly irrelevant to the main plot. You could just as easily say that they were going to Kirkwall to meet up with their dwarven uncle Gimlen or their elven uncle Gamlin. It just doesn't matter when it comes to the main plot. In fact, nobody ever mentions it outside of the opening and a select few banters with family members. Hawke's history is not important when it comes to the main plot. A second Revan he is not.

MyKingdomCold wrote...

Again, this is a no spoiler thread, but regarding Fenris. In banter between him and Aveline, it's kind of explained how he's able to live in that mansion for all those years.

Keyword being kind of. The reality is that BioWare made it work. The same could easily be done to an elven PC. I already elaborated on how that could be accomplished with minimal effort.

MyKingdomCold wrote...

As for magic, again it's part of the background storywise.

Keyword being background. Yes, it plays part in the origins of the Hawke family. It does not play any important part in the main plot. Especially not if you play a warrior or rogue Hawke and refuse to bring Anders with you on your expedition while bringing Bethany.

MyKingdomCold wrote...

Again, we can disagree. For me personally, the nobility and magic in the family play an important part in who Hawke is and his story. why he went to Kirkwall and the dynamic between siblings and uncle Gamlen.

That's fine and all but the fact here is that it doesn't play a part in the main plot. This is what some of you are missing here. I get that you felt it added to the character of your Hawke. I did too. It was great to have a family and all that. But there is no reason as to why an elven or dwarven Hawke couldn't experience the main plot of the game with different family subplots.

Modifié par Marionetten, 14 mai 2011 - 10:34 .

[MyKingdomCold]

personally, I did feel like being of noble background played a part in the main plot, or at least having family in Kirkwall did. If it weren't Gamlen living in Kirkwall, I don't think Hawke would've even gotten into the city. Unless of course we were given the option to fight or sneak our way in.

Let me put it this way. Hawke is the human whose mother was nobility and whose father was a mage. They could've added other origins like an elf or dwarf but it wouldn't be Hawke. Just like the human noble was Cousland and the human mage was Amell in Origins. It would've been odd in Origins if every origin in Origins was named Cousland.

[Lumikki]

Marionetten wrote...

And that reason is highly irrelevant to the main plot.

Basicly I say same what I allways say. How you see something is totally based what you want to see. Meaning what you think, is just your personal view point, nothing else. Nobility is part of the story and that's fact. How big part of story it is, it's other matter and it's also depending peoples personal perspective how big value they will put for it. Like magic in Hawkes family, it's part of story. You can take anything out of story, but you ALLWAYS also change the story too. How much the change it will be is depending how big part something was in story and how much the person value the part what was changed.

I my self conside both nobility and apostate magic part of the story in Hawkes tale.

Example:

Arriving Kirkwall and later hole act 1 as why it's done was all about Hawkes (Amell) nobility as restoring it's honor. If you change it as removing nobility and just been gold digger trying to become rich, then the hole story gets different taste.

Modifié par Lumikki, 14 mai 2011 - 11:07 .

[MyKingdomCold]

As for being an elf, I can imagine this conversation:
Mother elf: "We can go to Kirkwall. Our family lives in the slums there."
Hawke: "**** that. I would rather die here!"

[Serpieri Nei]

MyKingdomCold wrote...

As for being an elf, I can imagine this conversation:
Mother elf: "We can go to Kirkwall. Our family lives in the slums there."
Hawke: "**** that. I would rather die here!"

You must be referring to the alienage,  like the one in Denerim where a single elf was rewarded as were his/her people. 

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 14 mai 2011 - 11:28 .

[Lumikki]

You mean how Merrill was so impressed how elf's lived in Kirkwall?

[Serpieri Nei]

Lumikki wrote...

You mean how Merrill was so impressed how elf's lived in Kirkwall?

Well, let's see she's a Dalish, and quite naive. 

[Marionetten]

MyKingdomCold wrote...

Let me put it this way. Hawke is the human whose mother was nobility and whose father was a mage. They could've added other origins like an elf or dwarf but it wouldn't be Hawke. Just like the human noble was Cousland and the human mage was Amell in Origins. It would've been odd in Origins if every origin in
Origins was named Cousland.

True. It wouldn't be Hawke but it would still be the Champion. Once again, I'm referring to the main plot specifically rather than the story as a whole. I'd naturally want to see elves and dwarves be given their own background quests. An elf for example could deal with the racism and prejucide which comes with being an elf instead of reclaiming the mansion as a human noble would.

The point here is that an elf or a dwarf could indeed participate in the main plot. An elf or a dwarf could also easily assume the title of Champion as it doesn't explicitly require nobility or magic. 

Lumikki wrote...

Nobility is part of the story and that's fact. How big part of story it is, it's other matter and it's also depending peoples personal perspective how big value they will put for it. Like magic in Hawkes family, it's part of story. You can take anything out of story, but you ALLWAYS also change the story too. How much the change it will be is depending how big part something was in story and how much the person value the part what was changed.

It's part of the overall story of Hawke but it is not a part of the main plot. Instead it is dealt with in some very self-contained subplots sprinkled over the chapters. Replacing these would not suddenly make the story weird or incomprehensible. It would just give it a slightly different flavor. I don't perceive this as a problem. Sure, if you wanted to play a human noble it would be a problem to roll as an elf... but why bother rolling as an elf if that is your aim? It's not like I'm arguing for the removal of the Hawke origin. I'm just arguing for the addition of more origins.

Lumikki wrote...

Arriving Kirkwall and later hole act 1 as why it's done was all about Hawkes (Amell) nobility as restoring it's honor. If you change it as removing nobility and just been gold digger trying to become rich, then the hole story gets different taste.

No argument there. But I'm failing to understand how this is a negative? If anything, it would merely serve to add more replayability to the experience. Something which Dragon Age II direly needs.

Modifié par Marionetten, 15 mai 2011 - 12:16 .

[Lumikki]

Marionetten wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Arriving Kirkwall and later hole act 1 as why it's done was all about Hawkes (Amell) nobility as restoring it's honor. If you change it as removing nobility and just been gold digger trying to become rich, then the hole story gets different taste.

No argument there. But I'm failing to understand how this is a negative? If anything, it would merely serve to add more replayability to the experience.

it's not about negative or postive, it's abotu change. If you change the story, it's different story. So, of cause you can make story about dwarfs and elfs as character, but it will be diffrent kind of story. Not the story we played in DA2.

[MyKingdomCold]

I know. but for me at least, part of the main plot is becoming the Champion of Kirkwall. So you have to ask, at least I do, why did they go to Kirkwall in the first place and not somewhere else. They went to Kirkwall because Hawke's mother is from nobility and she thought she still had an estate there. That seems to be the reason why they go to Kirkwall in the first place. Otherwise Hawke would've been the Champion of some other city.

[Marionetten]

Lumikki wrote...

it's not about negative or postive, it's abotu change. If you change the story, it's different story. So, of cause you can make story about dwarfs and elfs as character, but it will be diffrent kind of story. Not the story we played in DA2.

What would change about the main plot? The game would still go down the exact same way chapter to chapter with some different subplots to explore. You'd still have the same characters, the same locales, the same quests and the same interactions with some minor changes here and there. It'd be no different from how Dragon Age: Origins dealt with the origins.

How is this an issue? 

MyKingdomCold wrote...

I know. but for me at least, part of the main plot is becoming the Champion of Kirkwall. So you have to ask, at least I do, why did they go to Kirkwall in the first place and not somewhere else. They went to Kirkwall because Hawke's mother is from nobility and she thought she still had an estate there. That seems to be the reason why they go to Kirkwall in the first place. Otherwise Hawke would've been the Champion of some other city.

Are you suggesting that it's impossible for an elf or a dwarf to have a connection to Kirkwall?

Modifié par Marionetten, 15 mai 2011 - 12:20 .