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[TEWR]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

ah yes I remember this thread.


Hawke could not be a human. Not with the current story, and not with the name. Now, you could ask "why did the Champion of Kirkwall need to be a human?" which would be something different. But the story would have to change in certain regards to reflect the fact that you are a dwarf or an elf.


But I still don't understand why people have a problem with some games being about a person from one specific race. Thedas is bound to have important people who came from one race. So long as Bioware doesn't keep doing that in every game, people shouldn't be complaining.

Yet, you provided nothing to back up why Hawke needed to be human? or attempted to disprove what has been said so far. The so called family connection is optional, it's basically a companion quest for Bethany/Carver. None of main quests bother to even take into account your class, let alone would care what race Hawke is, what your last name is or even if you have magic in your blood.  Heck, they don't even care if your an apostate or even a bloodmage.  So once again for you the story of DA2 is simple, and just as overdone as Origins. "You are one of the few who escaped the destruction of your home. Now, forced to fight for survival in an ever-changing world, you must gather the deadliest of allies, amass fame and fortune, and seal your place in history. This is the story of how the world changed forever. The legend of your Rise to Power begins now." 

You clearly don't understand the problem then. 

Hawke is buying the Amell estate back because it is rightfully theirs. The mother petitions the Viscount for the rights back to the estate, and Gamlen is a human who lost the entire Amell fortune. Your family connection is not optional.

The story would have to change to reflect your race. Kirkwall would need to be tolerant of elves owning estates in Hightown (which they are NOT). You would need a family member there. Not necessarily former nobility, but you would still need a connection into Kirkwall because the guard wasn't letting anyone into the city.

I am not saying it couldn't work. It just couldn't work with this current story. I've given my proof time and time again in this thread who knows how many pages back. It just seems like you won't accept it. But let me stress again....


I am not saying it couldn't work. It just couldn't work with this current story. When you get to Kirkwall you can't say "Find our uncle Gamlen Amell!" Gamlen's a human. You wouldn't be. There is the problem.

But please answer for me this:

But I still don't understand why people have a problem with some games being about a person from one specific race. Thedas is bound to have important people who came from one race. So long as Bioware doesn't keep doing that in every game, people shouldn't be complaining.

Why do people have a problem with this?

Also, you can't make Hawke a human, elf, and a dwarf. There would have to be different surnames because there would have to be differences in the story. Why do you think all of the Origin stories from DA:O had different surnames? They could've all just been called Cousland or Mahariel, but there were different surnames because they were different people. The same thing applies to this. Different races = different people = different surnames.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 mai 2011 - 03:53 .

[Marionetten]

It's not accepted because the entire premise is flawed. When you say "this story" what you really mean to say is "these subplots which are of no real significance when it comes to the actual main plot." In that, I think you'll find that most are in agreement. Yes, some quests would have to be changed but the main plot would remain intact. This is no different from how origins were treated in Dragon Age: Origins.

And people have a problem with it because it's an unnecessary limitation. I wouldn't mind it if Hawke was as fleshed out and central to the plot as Geralt or The Nameless One but he just isn't. He's a fairly anonymous character with a few unimportant personal quests here and there. Hawke is the Grey Warden with far less customization and a voice. Therein lies the issue.

[TEWR]

bah whatever. The fact remains that Kirkwall, a human controlled city state, harbors a prejudice against elves. It harbors a prejudice against Fereldans. It will definitely harbor an extreme prejudice against a Fereldan elf. So the purchasing of an estate would not happen.

Dwarves could own an estate, but they have no firsthand experience regarding the Mage-Templar situation so they have no reason to get involved with the Chantry.

I keep making the same points over and over again, and people refuse to accept them because they want to play as an elf or a dwarf. The story, subplot or whatever you want to call it, would need to be changed to reflect it.

[Serpieri Nei]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

ah yes I remember this thread.


Hawke could not be a human. Not with the current story, and not with the name. Now, you could ask "why did the Champion of Kirkwall need to be a human?" which would be something different. But the story would have to change in certain regards to reflect the fact that you are a dwarf or an elf.


But I still don't understand why people have a problem with some games being about a person from one specific race. Thedas is bound to have important people who came from one race. So long as Bioware doesn't keep doing that in every game, people shouldn't be complaining.

Yet, you provided nothing to back up why Hawke needed to be human? or attempted to disprove what has been said so far. The so called family connection is optional, it's basically a companion quest for Bethany/Carver. None of main quests bother to even take into account your class, let alone would care what race Hawke is, what your last name is or even if you have magic in your blood.  Heck, they don't even care if your an apostate or even a bloodmage.  So once again for you the story of DA2 is simple, and just as overdone as Origins. "You are one of the few who escaped the destruction of your home. Now, forced to fight for survival in an ever-changing world, you must gather the deadliest of allies, amass fame and fortune, and seal your place in history. This is the story of how the world changed forever. The legend of your Rise to Power begins now." 

You clearly don't understand the problem then. 

Hawke is buying the Amell estate back because it is rightfully theirs. The mother petitions the Viscount for the rights back to the estate, and Gamlen is a human who lost the entire Amell fortune. Your family connection is not optional.

The story would have to change to reflect your race. Kirkwall would need to be tolerant of elves owning estates in Hightown (which they are NOT). You would need a family member there. Not necessarily former nobility, but you would still need a connection into Kirkwall because the guard wasn't letting anyone into the city.

I am not saying it couldn't work. It just couldn't work with this current story. I've given my proof time and time again in this thread who knows how many pages back. It just seems like you won't accept it. But let me stress again....


I am not saying it couldn't work. It just couldn't work with this current story. When you get to Kirkwall you can't say "Find our uncle Gamlen Amell!" Gamlen's a human. You wouldn't be. There is the problem.

But please answer for me this:

But I still don't understand why people have a problem with some games being about a person from one specific race. Thedas is bound to have important people who came from one race. So long as Bioware doesn't keep doing that in every game, people shouldn't be complaining.

Why do people have a problem with this?

Also, you can't make Hawke a human, elf, and a dwarf. There would have to be different surnames because there would have to be differences in the story. Why do you think all of the Origin stories from DA:O had different surnames? They could've all just been called Cousland or Mahariel, but there were different surnames because they were different people. The same thing applies to this. Different races = different people = different surnames.

You have brought up points that have already been debunked. Let me refresh your memory.

An estate can be owned by a Dwarf, a Tevinter Magister, Slave Traders and have an elf squatting in it for years. Kirkwall is a very tolerable city. The Amell mansion has no relevance to any of the plots in the story; it’s simply a base of operations just like Gamlen's house.  The family connection is optional, feel free to take a look at the Official Dragon Age 2 Strategy Guide where it’s clearly listed as optional and not needed to move the story along.

Another point that has been debunked. Kirkwall is a dead city, it does not respond to anything. Apostates and Blood mages can do whatever they want in the streets, and the Viscount and Arishok both deal with an Apostate with no changes. To refresh your memory, the Quanari believe that allowing a mage to speak corrupts all those that hear him with demons. And the Viscount is under a lot of pressure from the Templars, the last thing he would do is deal with an apostate in a city that fears mages. So like the city the Quanari and the Viscount are also very tolerable. 

Gamlen does not affect the story, so if the player is a dwarf or elf. Bethany, Carver, Mom, Gamlen would all be the same race, and as stated previously nobility, and being human are not prerequisites for owning a mansion. Kirkwall also has dwarves and elves living there.

"I am not saying it couldn't work. It just couldn't work with this current story." This is a called a contradiction, you may want to rephrase it. You haven’t provided any proof; you provided an opinion as to why the story won’t work. An opinion that has been debunked with proof from the game and the official guide.

You seem to be forgetting the most obvious thing about Dragon Age 2, the protagonist last name is Hawke not Amell. The Origin stories weren’t based on a person’s last name, they were based on the race where each had a different introduction to the Wardens, and also had subtle and unique experiences
throughout the story. It’s a shame that DA2 doesn’t.

Regarding the ability to choose race - I can only answer for myself - everyone has their reasons for wanting it. I would suggest starting a thread on it or go to the constructive criticism forum. It’s just one of the many things being discussed there.

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 16 mai 2011 - 04:51 .

[Morroian]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I keep making the same points over and over again, and people refuse to accept them because they want to play as an elf or a dwarf. The story, subplot or whatever you want to call it, would need to be changed to reflect it.

I agree, the whole debate has become just the 2 sides reiterating the same arguments. I agree with you that they would have to change the story. Sure it may have been driven by the expense of 6 VAs compared to 2 but Bioware wrote a story to take into account the limitation. Others disagree and it ultimately comes down to a matter of opinion. 

[TEWR]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

You have brought up points that have already been debunked. Let me refresh your memory.

An estate can be owned by a Dwarf, a Tevinter Magister, Slave Traders and have an elf squatting in it for years. Kirkwall is a very tolerable city. The Amell mansion has no relevance to any of the plots in the story; it’s simply a base of operations just like Gamlen's house.  The family connection is optional, feel free to take a look at the Official Dragon Age 2 Strategy Guide where it’s clearly listed as optional and not needed to move the story
along.

Dwarves are liked by Humans. Danarius never owned that mansion. It was owned by a merchant. Fenris tells you this. The slavers residing in the estate were all human. An elf squatting in a mansion doesn't mean anything because no one noticed he was there, thanks to Aveline helping out. And no, the same could not work for an elven Champion because Aveline was already facing enough suspicion for helping Fenris.

Another point that has been debunked. Kirkwall is a dead city, it does not respond to anything. Apostates and Blood mages can do whatever they want in the streets, and the Viscount and Arishok both deal with an Apostate with no changes. To refresh your memory, the Quanari believe that allowing a mage to speak corrupts all those that hear him with demons. And the Viscount is under a lot of pressure from the Templars, the last thing he would do is deal with an apostate in a city that fears mages. So like the city the Quanari and the Viscount are also very tolerable. 

So ******-poor development of a city and the people residing in it for reflecting whether Hawke is a mage is your point? Good to know.

Gamlen does not affect the story, so if the player is a dwarf or elf. Bethany, Carver, Mom, Gamlen would all be the same race, and as stated previously nobility, and being human are not prerequisites for owning a mansion. Kirkwall also has dwarves and elves living there.

You're right, the person who had his contacts come personally to the Gallows to talk to you isn't important. The person who has a daughter that is your cousin isn't important. The person who was former nobility isn't important. The Amell family has been nobility since the time of Garahel

Kirkwall has dwarves living in Hightown because there is no prejudice against dwarves save for "They're greedy". But maybe you should go and look at the prejudice that is present against elves in both DA:O and DA2.

In DA2, we see a female Templar Lieutenant and her subordinates torture a child hunter for information on Feynriel, and the woman says she couldn't care less about knife-ears. We overhear commoners and nobility alike expressing their condemnation of the elves in the alienage. The nobility get in an uproar over the fact that Merrill moves in, which they obviously disapprove of. But they have no say in that because it was not their house.

"I am not saying it couldn't work. It just couldn't work with this current story." This is a called a contradiction, you may want to rephrase it. You haven’t provided any proof; you provided an opinion as to why the story won’t work. An opinion that has been debunked with proof from the game and the official guide.

No I don't want to rephrase it. Certain parts of the story would need to be altered, removed, or changed entirely for a different race to work.

Would Magistrate Vanard hire an elf to recapture Kelder alive when Vanard knows that Kelder kills elves? No.

Would Petrice hire a dwarf who may or may not believe in the Maker to escort Saarebas out of Kirkwall, knowing that almost all Dwarves don't believe in their religion? No. She says "Make no mistake that I will not hire anyone outside of the faithful ever again."

Would Quentin take a dwarven head for magically reconstructing his human wife? No. Family was an important part in that quest

and so on and so forth

Humans were the best race for this story because there was nothing keeping Hawke from completing quests. Come to think of it, were elves allowed to bear arms in the Ostagar army? I don't think so, and that was how you knew the Blight was spreading. You had experience fighting Darkspawn.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 mai 2011 - 05:10 .

[TJSolo]

Dwarves are liked by Humans. Danarius never owned that mansion. It was owned by a merchant. Fenris tells you this. The slavers residing in the estate were all human. An elf squatting in a mansion doesn't mean anything because no one noticed he was there, thanks to Aveline helping out. And  no, the same could not work for an elven Champion because Aveline was already facing enough suspicion for helping Fenris.

So by your logic if say an non-human were to get a human or respected dwarf to buy a mansion and allow them to live there it would not be an issue because it worked for a tervinter mage and slavers, unless you want to claim tervinter mages and slavers are better than non-human. Well you would have to make that claim in order to keep up your farce of an argument.  Aveline has the power over illegal actions like squatting but if a human were to sublet their mansion to a non-human then in your words any noble that would take issue: "they have no say in that because it
was not their house."

No I don't want to rephrase it. Certain parts of the story would need to be altered, removed, or changed entirely for a different race to work.

Well that is the sort of RPGs make - Games that have stories that can be altered or changed entirely depending on what the player does in Character Creation. You statement seems par for the course for BW.

Would Magistrate Vanard hire an elf to recapture Kelder alive when Vanard knows that Kelder kills elves? No

The Magistrate did not disclose the nature of the crimes commited and did not expect the player to discover any information beyond what was presented about criminal.

Would Petrice hire a dwarf who may or may not believe in the Maker to escort Saarebas out of Kirkwall, knowing that almost all Dwarves don't believe in their religion? No. She says "Make no mistake that I will not hire anyone outside of the faithful ever again."

Petrice needed a sacrifical lamb who was an inhabitant of Kirkwall. Being a beliver was optional and Petrice would have filled in the blanks anyway if her plan was a success. Also here quote is a hindsight judgement after she did what you claim she would not do.

Would Quentin take a dwarven head for magically reconstructing his human wife? No. Family was an important part in that quest

A subplot that may or may not need to be rewritten or scrapped depending on how non-human characters got to Kirkwall.

Humans were the best race for this story because there was nothing keeping Hawke from completing quests. Come to think of it, were elves allowed to bear arms in the Ostagar army? I don't think so, and that was how you knew the Blight was spreading. You had experience fighting Darkspawn.

Everyone in Loethering knew the blight was spreading.
Were elves in the Battle of Ostagar?Yes, some mages. Even though elves may not be allowed to be in offcial armies in DAO, city elves still took up arms and are just as able to become fighters that gain experience fighting darkspawn.

[Serpieri Nei]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

You have brought up points that have already been debunked. Let me refresh your memory.

An estate can be owned by a Dwarf, a Tevinter Magister, Slave Traders and have an elf squatting in it for years. Kirkwall is a very tolerable city. The Amell mansion has no relevance to any of the plots in the story; it’s simply a base of operations just like Gamlen's house.  The family connection is optional, feel free to take a look at the Official Dragon Age 2 Strategy Guide where it’s clearly listed as optional and not needed to move the story
along.

Dwarves are liked by Humans. Danarius never owned that mansion. It was owned by a merchant. Fenris tells you this. The slavers residing in the estate were all human. An elf squatting in a mansion doesn't mean anything because no one noticed he was there, thanks to Aveline helping out. And no, the same could not work for an elven Champion because Aveline was already facing enough suspicion for helping Fenris.

Another point that has been debunked. Kirkwall is a dead city, it does not respond to anything. Apostates and Blood mages can do whatever they want in the streets, and the Viscount and Arishok both deal with an Apostate with no changes. To refresh your memory, the Quanari believe that allowing a mage to speak corrupts all those that hear him with demons. And the Viscount is under a lot of pressure from the Templars, the last thing he would do is deal with an apostate in a city that fears mages. So like the city the Quanari and the Viscount are also very tolerable. 

So ******-poor development of a city and the people residing in it for reflecting whether Hawke is a mage is your point? Good to know.

Gamlen does not affect the story, so if the player is a dwarf or elf. Bethany, Carver, Mom, Gamlen would all be the same race, and as stated previously nobility, and being human are not prerequisites for owning a mansion. Kirkwall also has dwarves and elves living there.

You're right, the person who had his contacts come personally to the Gallows to talk to you isn't important. The person who has a daughter that is your cousin isn't important. The person who was former nobility isn't important. The Amell family has been nobility since the time of Garahel

Kirkwall has dwarves living in Hightown because there is no prejudice against dwarves save for "They're greedy". But maybe you should go and look at the prejudice that is present against elves in both DA:O and DA2.

In DA2, we see a female Templar Lieutenant and her subordinates torture a child hunter for information on Feynriel, and the woman says she couldn't care less about knife-ears. We overhear commoners and nobility alike expressing their condemnation of the elves in the alienage. The nobility get in an uproar over the fact that Merrill moves in, which they obviously disapprove of. But they have no say in that because it was not their house.

"I am not saying it couldn't work. It just couldn't work with this current story." This is a called a contradiction, you may want to rephrase it. You haven’t provided any proof; you provided an opinion as to why the story won’t work. An opinion that has been debunked with proof from the game and the official guide.

No I don't want to rephrase it. Certain parts of the story would need to be altered, removed, or changed entirely for a different race to work.

Would Magistrate Vanard hire an elf to recapture Kelder alive when Vanard knows that Kelder kills elves? No.

Would Petrice hire a dwarf who may or may not believe in the Maker to escort Saarebas out of Kirkwall, knowing that almost all Dwarves don't believe in their religion? No. She says "Make no mistake that I will not hire anyone outside of the faithful ever again."

Would Quentin take a dwarven head for magically reconstructing his human wife? No. Family was an important part in that quest

and so on and so forth

Humans were the best race for this story because there was nothing keeping Hawke from completing quests. Come to think of it, were elves allowed to bear arms in the Ostagar army? I don't think so, and that was how you knew the Blight was spreading. You had experience fighting Darkspawn.

Danarius did own the mansion – its previous owner left or was killed – It’s even referred to as his mansion by the wiki and the official guide.  If no one noticed Fenris was there, they why did Aveline and Isabella have to step in to assist? The same can work for an Elven Champion, you see humans are very rewarding when it comes to saving their lives. Origins and the Codexes provide proof of this.

******-Poor development is just one the many flaws in the game. The story will not change no matter what Hawke. I’m sorry you’re angry at the flaws of the game, I suggest you bring that up in the constructive criticism thread. And as I stated previously Elves have been rewarded many times by Humans, since the days of Andraste. Which is supported by the Dragon age Codex and the origin stories both the Dalish Elf and City Elf. So as you can see rewarding an Elf for defeating the Arishok is very plausible.

I’m quite aware of the prejudice Elves face and I’m also quite aware of how capricious the humans are in the dragon age universe.  One minute they stab you in the back, and the other minute they give you titles and land.

The nobility, nor did any citizen do anything other than make a protest. Yet, when it came to the Quanari, they were fine with kidnapping, torture, and murder. It seems you believe the people of the Kirkwall are so afraid of the elves or so full of hate of them that they would not only allow them to live in the city but share their God with them. They are treated as second class citizens, and nothing says they can’t own property, or garner wealth or do not have the same basic rights as humans. You see even a human can face the same prejudice that an elf has. Just ask the ones living in Darktown. And Nobles do not control who purchases property in Kirkwall, nor does the Viscount. The person who has the deed does and he can sell it to a dwarf, loose it a card game to a slave trader, or persuaded to give it up or get killed.

You haven’tpointed a single part of the story that requires changing? Would you like for me to list all the main quests?  Magistrate Orders is an optional quest, and all he tells Hawke is that he’s an escaped criminal and the guards sent to capture him were slaughtered by creatures. The reason Magistrate approaches Hawke is because of the jobs he did during the one year of servitude. Funny, how we don’t even know that. You only find about what
he did was from the elven father. So does the Magistrate have visions of the future? And would be aware of that taking place?

You do remember how this quest Shepherding Wolves starts right? Hawke leaps to Petrice’s defense, and she offers him/her coin. What does the maker have to do with Petrice using Hawke as a patsy? It is very clear that Sister Petrice has you set up to be killed. Is that how the faithful are rewarded? And that line you’re
referring too, is her unhappy response to Hawke.

The only reason Hawke's mother dies is because she looked like his Quentin's wife. A blood mage that is quite insane, do you really beleive he couldn't kill a dwarf female or elven women to get what he wanted? So even an elven mother and dwarf mother could be killed without affecting the quest.

As its been shown many times there is nothing keeping an elf or a dwarf from completing any of the listed quests. And their is plenty of evidence on why a mage would not work but the class was included. You knew the blight ws spreading same way as everyone else, the refugees, the gathering armies, news does travel even in Ostagar.

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 16 mai 2011 - 06:53 .

[TEWR]

TJSolo wrote...


So by your logic if say an non-human were to get a human or respected dwarf to buy a mansion and allow them to live there it would not be an issue because it worked for a tervinter mage and slavers, unless you want to claim tervinter mages and slavers are better than non-human. Well you would have to make that claim in order to keep up your farce of an argument.  Aveline has the power over illegal actions like squatting but if a human were to sublet their mansion to a non-human then in your words any noble that would take issue: "they have no say in that because it was not their house."

Yes my argument is a farce because you say so and you are the authority

Danarius didn't own the mansion. That does not mean he wasn't using it. Fenris tells you that Danarius may have killed the merchant who owned it. That is not the same as squatting in it. We don't know how Danarius came to acquire the house. He could've done it forcefully and illegally.

The slavers legally acquired the house, so they are not squatting in it either. Gamlen gave it to them to settle a debt.

Aveline has no power over allowing illegal actions to continue because a person squatting in a house is illegal. . By trying to cover up Fenris' use of the mansion, that is her doing something she shouldn't. With good reason yes, but trying to keep Fenris safe was enough to draw the suspicion of people. She is not going to place more risk on her job by making patrols avoid the Amell Estate area.

Well that is the sort of RPGs make - Games that have stories that can be altered or changed entirely depending on what the player does in Character Creation. You statement seems par for the course for BW.

except the argument for this entire thread by people who want Hawke to be a different race  was "The story doesn't have to be changed at all! It can still work!". I am not saying that they couldn't change the story, but the former argument doesn't fly. Or is this another argument of mine that is a farce?

The Magistrate did not disclose the nature of the crimes commited and did not expect the player to discover any information beyond what was presented about criminal.

He still isn't going to take the risk. 15 elves being murdered isn't something that will stay hidden forever.

Petrice needed a sacrifical lamb who was an inhabitant of Kirkwall. Being a beliver was optional and Petrice would have filled in the blanks anyway if her plan was a success. Also here quote is a hindsight judgement after she did what you claim she would not do.

No she needed someone skilled in fighting and who knew Darktown alleys.

A subplot that may or may not need to be rewritten or scrapped depending on how non-human characters got to Kirkwall.

Thank you for proving my point about how the story would need to be rewritten for a dwarven or elven Champion of Kirkwall.

Everyone in Loethering knew the blight was spreading.
Were elves in the Battle of Ostagar?Yes, some mages. Even though elves may not be allowed to be in offcial armies in DAO, city elves still took up arms and are just as able to become fighters that gain experience fighting darkspawn.

Then why is it that soldiers didn't like the fact that 2 elves possessed weapons in the City Elf origin? Why is it that we never see any elven soldiers? How do you know that among the 7 mages sent to Ostagar, any of them were elves?

An elf can take up arms. That does not mean that they are allowed to by current Thedosian law.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 mai 2011 - 06:40 .

[TEWR]

I give up. People here are just being stubborn. Maybe I am too, but this is just pointless.


And for the record, they didn't take kindly to the Qunari because they have been hostile in the past! They didn't want to see that happening here (they failed, but they still didn't want to see it happen). Elves don't fight back, save for Denerim's alienage.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 mai 2011 - 06:38 .

[TJSolo]

Danarius
didn't own the mansion. That does not mean he wasn't using it. Fenris
tells you that Danarius may have killed the merchant who owned it. That
is not the same as squatting in it. We don't know how Danarius came to
acquire the house. He could've done it forcefully and illegally.

The slavers legally acquired the house, so they are not squatting in it either. Gamlen gave it to them to settle a debt.

Why repeat what I am not disagreeing with. I took your ideas and applied to to having a non-human character use a proxy to buy an estaste as a plot device that matches the examples you bring up. A legally human owned estate that happens to have an unwanted element living there. Aveline does not have extra patrols to deal with or avoid these situations.

except
the argument for this entire thread by people who want Hawke to be a
different race  was "The story doesn't have to be changed at all! It can
still work!". I am not saying that they couldn't change the story, but
the former argument doesn't fly. Or is this another argument of mine
that is a farce?

I have yet to see a story reason that does not fly with a non-human main character. People have been repeating Hawke situations and pointing out how those situations would not have worked with an elf. But that is just like pointing out how a noble Cousland could not be an elf or dwarf, it completely ignores what is being asked for and how it worked in Origins - tailored beginings for elves and dwarves. Every story related reason you drummed up was given an alternative way of working for a non-human character.

He still isn't going to take the risk. 15 elves being murdered isn't something that will stay hidden forever.

Sure he will because the Magistrate is an arrogant ****** that thinks his word is more important than the facts.

No she needed someone skilled in fighting and who knew Darktown alleys.

and this is nowhere near race dependent.

Thank you for proving my point about how the story would need to be rewritten for a dwarven or elven Champion of Kirkwall.

It is not your point. I have said it in a bunch of my posts and so have others. Understanding that rewrites and tailoring would need to be done to acommodate more races is common sense that is evident in DAO.

Then why is it that soldiers
didn't like the fact that 2 elves possessed weapons in the City Elf
origin? Why is it that we never see any elven soldiers? How do you know
that among the 7 mages sent to Ostagar, any of them were elves?

In game reaction of NPCs are just atmosphere and does not mean city elves don't fight. I said I never saw official soldiers that were elves. There were city elves in the game who were warriors/fighters that took up arms. 

An elf can take up arms. That does not mean that they are allowed to by current Thedosian law.

What law? The only edict I saw of the sort was a temporary one placed after the Denerim elf revolt.

[SilentK]

I see that plenty of people have said it all ready but how I see it. Dwarves don't have magic and elves are 2:nd class people so they could not have a history of a noble family. My female elf warden that romanced king Alistair would have been mighty miffed if she could have been a noble in Kirkwall but not in Ferelden. Combine it and the Hawke that bioware wants to present is human.

Just how I see it. Have fun on the forum =)

edit: try to fix spelling....

Modifié par SilentK, 16 mai 2011 - 03:21 .

[Huntress]

"Your sister is a mage, therefore you cannot be a dwarf. Your mother's family are Kirkwall noblity, so you cannot be an elf. These are both important plot points."

Exactly, thats why hawk is human, Elves are second class citizen, dwarves can't be mages.

[Vicious]

Because elves don't get to be powerful in Thedas anymore.

Suck it, elf lovers.

[happy_daiz]

Vicious wrote...

Because elves don't get to be powerful in Thedas anymore.

Suck it, elf lovers.

 Sorry, but that was funny.

[Drachasor]

Huntress wrote...

"Your sister is a mage, therefore you cannot be a dwarf. Your mother's family are Kirkwall noblity, so you cannot be an elf. These are both important plot points."

Exactly, thats why hawk is human, Elves are second class citizen, dwarves can't be mages.

Elves can buy nice houses just like humans.  They don't have to live in the Alienage.  That's explicitely stated in the game.

So there's no reason why, no matter the race, you couldn't move into a nice house.  Wealth is power, and so the Deep Roads expedition would give anyone a lot of influence, regardless of race.  Maybe if you are an Elf or Dwarf then you don't move into High Town, but you could still have an extensive estate.  Heck, nice Elves could even fix up and make the alienage an awesome place to live.

Naturally, an Elf or Dwarf main character wouldn't of been of a noble family.  But they handled such differences just fine in the first game.  It dramatically increases replayability if different options in the beginning lead to real consequences later on.  Heck, the human noble is the ONLY origin option in DA:O that could become king/queen.  Saying you had to be human in DA2 is no different that that.  The events of DA2 are what make you a powerful influence in the city, and the money and fame you get would apply equally well to every race.  Sure, an Elf or Dwarf would undoubtedly have to deal with racism, but that ADDS its own element to the story and doesn't take anything away.

Similarly, sure, Bethany wouldn't be your sister if you are a member of another race.  A Dwarf wouldn't have a mage relative.  Those are NOT essential elements to the story by any means.  There'd be other ways to link family members to the main themes (a dwarf could have a sibling that does work with lyrium and could either work closely with the mages or the templars for instance).

Granted, some options wouldn't make sense, such as a Dalish Elf (at least, it is hard to think of a reason why you wouldn't just live with the Dalish), but the general ability to pick a member of a race could have worked just well in DA2.

Of course, DA2 was far too rushed to be able to implement story like that.  Heck, it has a lot of gaps and flaws with what story it does do.

Modifié par Drachasor, 16 mai 2011 - 06:20 .

[Drasanil]

Huntress wrote...

"Your sister is a mage, therefore you cannot be a dwarf. Your mother's family are Kirkwall noblity, so you cannot be an elf. These are both important plot points."

Exactly, thats why hawk is human, Elves are second class citizen, dwarves can't be mages.

The thing is, those are not important plot points, not in the least, they aren't all that relevant to story as presented by Bioware nor are they crucial as to how the events that unfold in DAII!

Heck Hawke him/herself being a mage isn't relevant or important to the story as presented, and there's far more jarring things with that scenario than there would be with an elf or dwarf. Furthermore, if you think about it Hawke him/herself period isn't all that relevant to the story, pretty much every major event except maybe a certain thingy that does thingies to people's minds, would have happened regardless of him/her being there.

[happy_daiz]

It's probably because the main seats of power in the city are ruled by humans. For them to respect Hawke without pre-judging him/her by race, Hawke has to be human. Makes sense to me, anyway.

[Drachasor]

happy_daiz wrote...

It's probably because the main seats of power in the city are ruled by humans. For them to respect Hawke without pre-judging him/her by race, Hawke has to be human. Makes sense to me, anyway.

When he comes in with a lot of money, then he is going to have influence whether he is respected or not.  Like I said above, the extra difficulties an Elf or Dwarf would face would add to the story and game, not take away from it.  You don't really need to have any official position in the game for purposes of the plot, merely being highly respected because of wealth AND deeds is quite sufficient.

Edit:  Heck, after Act 2, you could have to deal with some nobles pushing to have you declared an honorary human or some such political nonesense since that's the only way they can accept how awesome you are.

Modifié par Drachasor, 16 mai 2011 - 06:28 .

[happy_daiz]

Drachasor wrote...

When he comes in with a lot of money, then he is going to have influence whether he is respected or not.  Like I said above, the extra difficulties an Elf or Dwarf would face would add to the story and game, not take away from it.  You don't really need to have any official position in the game for purposes of the plot, merely being highly respected because of wealth AND deeds is quite sufficient.

Sure, I understand that, but I really can't see Meredith, Orsino, or Viscount Dumar taking advice from anyone other than a human.

[Drasanil]

It's probably because the main seats of power in the city are ruled by humans. For them to respect Hawke without pre-judging him/her by race, Hawke has to be human. Makes sense to me, anyway.

He is pre-judged any ways for being a Felrdan refugee, what gets him over is not his Amell name but the buckets of money he supposedly makes from his deep roads venture and the mine-ownership. Neither of these coming with a human only prerequisite.

happy_daiz wrote...Sure, I understand that, but I really can't see Meredith, Orsino, or Viscount Dumar taking advice from anyone other than a human.

Orsino? Really? You'd think an elven mage who managed to claw his way to first enchanter, wouldn't respect another elf well enough for making his own way against the odds?

Viscounts, there are two main factors, one you "saved" his son from that Qunari and then saved him from the mercenaries, and in ACT II it wasn't so much the viscount as the Arishok's call and we already know the Qunari don't disciminate against race, at least no in the way humans do.

Meredith: you're a threat because you booted the Qunari out of the city, not really dependant on being an Amell. A dwarf or elf could have done the same and probably still gotten recognition, racists societies are just as fine with hypocracy as our modern ones. Elf-Hawke being named champion could have been a very uncle-tom situation, where he/she is one of "the good ones" and why can't the other elves be more like him instead of useless lazy disease carriny lay-abouts.

[NedPepper]

Since the other thread got locked while right when I got done writing all this, I figured I'd post my point here.  I hope I'm not repeating a point made, but here's my take.

Let's look at the flipside of the OP's argument.  Say Dragon Age 3 will only let you play as a dwarf.  Or an elf.  I think at the end of the day, if you have to pick one, most people would say human. 
I was always more connected to my human characters.  In fact, I wanted another human origin in the first game.  A peasant from Denerim or one of the small  towns.  It was noble human or mage.  I always wanted to play a barbarian kind of character in Origins, but I just never felt like that would work with being a son of noble.  I wanted to be an Ash Warrior.
That aside, does the RACE bother me?  No.  But I would like a couple different origins from a class perspective.  (Why would a rich noble want to become a thieving rogue?) For Hawke, it works because of how FLEXIBLE the character really is. 

[Addai]

And, my response right before the other thread was locked.:

Perles75 wrote...

In The Witcher you cannot choose anything about your character (not even the appearance) and people enjoy it a lot, so I don't think the problem is not playing one set race. I guess the disappointment comes from the comparison with Origins that allowed six choices (even if, as many people say, this choice not have such a big impact on the story).

I have absolutely no problems to play a story with a set race, I don't find it such a terrible loss. It's nice to have the choice but it's not an absolute must for me.

I enjoyed The Witcher in spite of the set character, not because of it.  When so many other games force you to be a set character, it's a shame when an RPG that had choice of race drops it.  But I'm afraid that voiced PC will continue the trend of dull whitebread stock characters.

Modifié par Addai67, 16 mai 2011 - 09:07 .

[TEWR]

my thread shouldn't have been locked. It wasn't just talking about Hawke.

[Serpieri Nei]

SilentK wrote...

I see that plenty of people have said it all ready but how I see it. Dwarves don't have magic and elves are 2:nd class people so they could not have a history of a noble family. My female elf warden that romanced king Alistair would have been mighty miffed if she could have been a noble in Kirkwall but not in Ferelden. Combine it and the Hawke that bioware wants to present is human.

Just how I see it. Have fun on the forum =)

edit: try to fix spelling....

As it has been said many times nothing in any of the main quests requires you to have magic in your blood or have nobility. Your sister or brother can either be a grey warden or even join the templars/mages - so once again I have proven that a dwarf or elven brother/sister can still leave at the end of act 1.

@happy_daiz - You are aware that Orino is a city elf right? You are also aware that the Viscount did not request Hawke - the Arishok requested him personally. The Viscount had little choice but to accept his demand. The Templar Order is a military order of the Chantry- they take their orders from them not the Viscount or the Champion of the City.

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 16 mai 2011 - 09:35 .