465 réponses à ce sujet

[Drachasor]

simfamSP wrote...

Race 'diversity' always consists of this:

"Greetings Elf"
"Greetings Dwarf"

Nothing special there. There are two great RPGs that have a set race and sex. I will mention one only for the purpose of avoiding huge flames.

Planescape.

If you played DA:O, you'd know that what race you played had more of an effect than that.  Was it perfect?  No, but there were meaningful impacts at several points.  Heck, each origin had a number of meaningful changes to the game.

[NedPepper]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

my thread shouldn't have been locked. It wasn't just talking about Hawke.

Yeah, I don't really get that, either.  It was a very different conversation.  And not nearly as negative as this thread.

[Serpieri Nei]

simfamSP wrote...

Race 'diversity' always consists of this:

"Greetings Elf"
"Greetings Dwarf"

Nothing special there. There are two great RPGs that have a set race and sex. I will mention one only for the purpose of avoiding huge flames.

Planescape.

Based on what you said, you clearly never played Dragon age Origins or you decided to use a fabrication to back your argument. Congrats, on invalidating your post. 

[Zem_]

Addai67 wrote...
I enjoyed The Witcher in spite of the set character, not because of it.  When so many other games force you to be a set character, it's a shame when an RPG that had choice of race drops it.  But I'm afraid that voiced PC will continue the trend of dull whitebread stock characters.

The Witcher is even more restrictive than DA2 which is in turn more restrictive than Origins, obviously, but people act like Origins gives them total freedom when in fact it is merely the choice of several Hawke's instead of just one.  How many stock characters do they need to provide in one game to make you forget you are, in fact, playing a stock character?  You know if you played a human mage in Origins your last name was Amell and you were related to the Kirkwall Amell's as is Hawke?  The voice-over is really the only added element and then only if the imagining the sound of your character's voice was something you cared about.   In every other way Hawke is no more a stock character than is the Cousland, Aeducan, Amell, etc. Warden.

As for the rest of this thread I don't see the point arguing what could have been done.  Could they have modified the story to allow for elf and dwarf Hawke? Sure.  They could have added a whole bunch of unique maps to explore too and they didn't do that either.  So why is Hawke human?  Same reason we have so few maps.  It's just all they could do in the time they gave themselves to do it.  Personally, I think this game has much bigger problems than choice of race.  Had I been given several races to choose from, I'd still probably not be replaying the game.  No reason to.  More races won't make the story any less dull or the combat waves and repeated areas any less annoying.  But that's just my two bits.

[Addai]

Zem_ wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I enjoyed The Witcher in spite of the set character, not because of it.  When so many other games force you to be a set character, it's a shame when an RPG that had choice of race drops it.  But I'm afraid that voiced PC will continue the trend of dull whitebread stock characters.

The Witcher is even more restrictive than DA2 which is in turn more restrictive than Origins, obviously, but people act like Origins gives them total freedom when in fact it is merely the choice of several Hawke's instead of just one. 

Well, no.  A Cousland has a much different background than a Dalish elf than a dwarf commoner, which is all fodder for roleplay characterization.

[Marionetten]

simfamSP wrote...

Race 'diversity' always consists of this:

"Greetings Elf"
"Greetings Dwarf"

Nothing special there. There are two great RPGs that have a set race and sex. I will mention one only for the purpose of avoiding huge flames.

Planescape.

This would be a great argument if Dragon Age II was comparable to Planescape: Torment. Unfortunately, Hawke isn't all that important to the plot. I'd argue that both Varric and Anders are more central characters. They're most certainly more defined characters. The Champion is more similar to the Grey Warden than Geralt or TNO. An empty vessel waiting to be filled.

What you got in Dragon Age II was all the bad parts of having a set protagonist with none of the good parts except for voice acting. If the story had been more personal I would have been inclined to be more forgiving. As it wasn't I didn't really care for it. Besides, how far do we want to go here? You could make the exact same argument for removing gender selection as race selection. I think Dragon Age: Origins had the right idea for this franchise.

[Serpieri Nei]

Marionetten wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

Race 'diversity' always consists of this:

"Greetings Elf"
"Greetings Dwarf"

Nothing special there. There are two great RPGs that have a set race and sex. I will mention one only for the purpose of avoiding huge flames.

Planescape.

This would be a great argument if Dragon Age II was comparable to Planescape: Torment. Unfortunately, Hawke isn't all that important to the plot. I'd argue that both Varric and Anders are more central characters. They're most certainly more defined characters. The Champion is more similar to the Grey Warden than Geralt or TNO. An empty vessel waiting to be filled.

What you got in Dragon Age II was all the bad parts of having a set protagonist with none of the good parts except for voice acting. If the story had been more personal I would have been inclined to be more forgiving. As it wasn't I didn't really care for it. Besides, how far do we want to go here? You could make the exact same argument for removing gender selection as race selection. I think Dragon Age: Origins had the right idea for this franchise.

and class selection. The story doesn't allow for an Apostate to have free roam of Kirkwall and having zero conequences for casting spells or performing blood magic.

[Drasanil]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Marionetten wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

Race 'diversity' always consists of this:

"Greetings Elf"
"Greetings Dwarf"

Nothing special there. There are two great RPGs that have a set race and sex. I will mention one only for the purpose of avoiding huge flames.

Planescape.

This would be a great argument if Dragon Age II was comparable to Planescape: Torment. Unfortunately, Hawke isn't all that important to the plot. I'd argue that both Varric and Anders are more central characters. They're most certainly more defined characters. The Champion is more similar to the Grey Warden than Geralt or TNO. An empty vessel waiting to be filled.

What you got in Dragon Age II was all the bad parts of having a set protagonist with none of the good parts except for voice acting. If the story had been more personal I would have been inclined to be more forgiving. As it wasn't I didn't really care for it. Besides, how far do we want to go here? You could make the exact same argument for removing gender selection as race selection. I think Dragon Age: Origins had the right idea for this franchise.

and class selection. The story doesn't allow for an Apostate to have free roam of Kirkwall and having zero conequences for casting spells or performing blood magic.

Careful, you don't want to give Bioware ideas...
 
DAIII featuring Duck! The pointy-eared ambiguously-transgendered-hermaphroditic a-bi-sexual half-dwarf humanoid non-classed person who’s only talent tree relates to using a blunted fireball shooting sword.
 
Naturally this will all be so they can focus on the story more, which will detail Duck’s legendary rise from bed one morning and perhaps the doing of something such as the groceries or some light reading while world changing events happen around hir. You will of course have no companions as they would get in the way of things but every single man, woman, dog and sign post that you meet will be a fully romanceable bi-sexual who will hate-sex you once you get enough something points.
 
Pre-order now and you’ll get the Officina Barbitium DLC, which will allow you to give your Duck beards and moustaches which were most certainly not cut out of the game two weeks prior to release.

[neppakyo]

Marionetten wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

Race 'diversity' always consists of this:

"Greetings Elf"
"Greetings Dwarf"

Nothing special there. There are two great RPGs that have a set race and sex. I will mention one only for the purpose of avoiding huge flames.

Planescape.

This would be a great argument if Dragon Age II was comparable to Planescape: Torment. Unfortunately, Hawke isn't all that important to the plot. I'd argue that both Varric and Anders are more central characters. They're most certainly more defined characters. The Champion is more similar to the Grey Warden than Geralt or TNO. An empty vessel waiting to be filled.

What you got in Dragon Age II was all the bad parts of having a set protagonist with none of the good parts except for voice acting. If the story had been more personal I would have been inclined to be more forgiving. As it wasn't I didn't really care for it. Besides, how far do we want to go here? You could make the exact same argument for removing gender selection as race selection. I think Dragon Age: Origins had the right idea for this franchise.

I agree. I've been saying since around the middle of march that the story wasn't about hawke. It was about varric and anders (with cassandra for that angry french lesbian eye candy). You only played hawke for something to do during the commercial breaks.

[Tommy6860]

neppakyo wrote...

Marionetten wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

Race 'diversity' always consists of this:

"Greetings Elf"
"Greetings Dwarf"

Nothing special there. There are two great RPGs that have a set race and sex. I will mention one only for the purpose of avoiding huge flames.

Planescape.

This would be a great argument if Dragon Age II was comparable to Planescape: Torment. Unfortunately, Hawke isn't all that important to the plot. I'd argue that both Varric and Anders are more central characters. They're most certainly more defined characters. The Champion is more similar to the Grey Warden than Geralt or TNO. An empty vessel waiting to be filled.

What you got in Dragon Age II was all the bad parts of having a set protagonist with none of the good parts except for voice acting. If the story had been more personal I would have been inclined to be more forgiving. As it wasn't I didn't really care for it. Besides, how far do we want to go here? You could make the exact same argument for removing gender selection as race selection. I think Dragon Age: Origins had the right idea for this franchise.

I agree. I've been saying since around the middle of march that the story wasn't about hawke. It was about varric and anders (with cassandra for that angry french lesbian eye candy). You only played hawke for something to do during the commercial breaks.

An interesting point about this Varric and Anders being central characters is that there's Isabela as well. What's interesting is that, you cannot go aobut starting the main story and getting on with it, without Anders or Varric, they have to be there. But, Isabela actually plays the biggest part with her involvement within the first two acts, yet you can play the game without ever having recruited her.

[neppakyo]

Tommy6860 wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

I agree. I've been saying since around the middle of march that the story wasn't about hawke. It was about varric and anders (with cassandra for that angry french lesbian eye candy). You only played hawke for something to do during the commercial breaks.

An interesting point about this Varric and Anders being central characters is that there's Isabela as well. What's interesting is that, you cannot go aobut starting the main story and getting on with it, without Anders or Varric, they have to be there. But, Isabela actually plays the biggest part with her involvement within the first two acts, yet you can play the game without ever having recruited her.

Forgot about that. She does play an important role in the reason of why the Qunari are there.. yet, you don't have to recruit her.

Good point. Totally forgot about that one. Add that to the "cons" list.

[Zem_]

Addai67 wrote...

Zem_ wrote...

The Witcher is even more restrictive than DA2 which is in turn more restrictive than Origins, obviously, but people act like Origins gives them total freedom when in fact it is merely the choice of several Hawke's instead of just one. 

Well, no.  A Cousland has a much different background than a Dalish elf than a dwarf commoner, which is all fodder for roleplay characterization.

When I said "choice of several Hawke's" I meant that you have several different choices of stock character but that they are all stock characters in the same way that Hawke is.  You just have several to choose from.  No one of them is any more "fodder for roleplay" than is Hawke.  In other words, if you find you can't roleplay Hawke in the same way you could roleplay a Cousland or an Aeducan or an Amell in DAO then.. it's not because there is only one origin.  In any given game of DAO... there is also just one origin:  The one you picked.

[Oink]

Personally it didn't really bother me that you can only play as a human in DA2, since i didn't play a lot as anything other than a human in DA:O. i tried a bit playing as elves and dwarves, but never completed a playthrough. what did bother me was that the option of playing other races was canceld, without giving enough plot reasons for it. there wasn't anything in the plot of DA2 that made you feel that playing as a human was essential to the plot.

Instead of having a human family there, you could have had an elven family in the alienage or a dwarven family in the merchent quarter and that would be it. beyond that, the plot of DA2 would have been fine with either race.

Now, i realize that Bioware were short on time (although i think they should have delayed the release, instead of releasing a game that would hurt their reputaion for high quality) and so could not create the option of playing other races and had to go with human, because that's the race most gamers would prefer. but they should have made a plot that would make you feel that you had to be human for it.

For example: your character was raised since he\\she was a baby, by elves, altough your adopting family are keeping the full circumstances of it from you, in order to protect you, although, obviously you would discover the truth as the game progresses and it will affect your dicision making.

And instead of the mages vs templars thing, you would have elves vs humans plot, forcing you to choose between the race of your adoptive family and your own race. however, with humans looking down on you when they find out you were raised by elves (and everyone will find out, since you will become famous in Kirkwall) and elves not fully accepting you, since you are a human.

In my opinion, that could have been a much more engrossing plot than the one of DA2, but that's just my opinion...

Modifié par Oink, 17 mai 2011 - 03:49 .

[Morroian]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

Race 'diversity' always consists of this:

"Greetings Elf"
"Greetings Dwarf"

Nothing special there. There are two great RPGs that have a set race and sex. I will mention one only for the purpose of avoiding huge flames.

Planescape.

Based on what you said, you clearly never played Dragon age Origins or you decided to use a fabrication to back your argument. Congrats, on invalidating your post. 

His version was the DAO I played.

[Serpieri Nei]

So you must of only played a single origin since there is differences.

Here's one of them that is unique to the Dalish - Fenrael isn't dead. 

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 17 mai 2011 - 03:58 .

[Serpieri Nei]

Zem_ wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Zem_ wrote...

The Witcher is even more restrictive than DA2 which is in turn more restrictive than Origins, obviously, but people act like Origins gives them total freedom when in fact it is merely the choice of several Hawke's instead of just one. 

Well, no.  A Cousland has a much different background than a Dalish elf than a dwarf commoner, which is all fodder for roleplay characterization.

When I said "choice of several Hawke's" I meant that you have several different choices of stock character but that they are all stock characters in the same way that Hawke is.  You just have several to choose from.  No one of them is any more "fodder for roleplay" than is Hawke.  In other words, if you find you can't roleplay Hawke in the same way you could roleplay a Cousland or an Aeducan or an Amell in DAO then.. it's not because there is only one origin.  In any given game of DAO... there is also just one origin:  The one you picked.

Difference is no matter what class Hawke is the story is the same. In Origins, each race had subtle and unique differences. Also I have 5 out of the 6 origins completed, and have replayed my three favorites, maybe when I have some free time I'd rather complete Dwarf Commoner Origin then play DA2 a second time but that will have to wait since Witcher 2 releases tomorrow. So as you can see, you can have more then one Origin, and each one could also provided for a greater sequel. It's a shame Bioware choose not to build on what was succesful in that game.

[Addai]

Zem_ wrote...

When I said "choice of several Hawke's" I meant that you have several different choices of stock character but that they are all stock characters in the same way that Hawke is.  You just have several to choose from.  No one of them is any more "fodder for roleplay" than is Hawke.  In other words, if you find you can't roleplay Hawke in the same way you could roleplay a Cousland or an Aeducan or an Amell in DAO then.. it's not because there is only one origin.  In any given game of DAO... there is also just one origin:  The one you picked.

Well for one, human "theme" is bland.  You did have the apostate stuff, but that was not fleshed out much at all.

For two, origin story x 6 > only one origin story.

[Drachasor]

Morroian wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

Race 'diversity' always consists of this:

"Greetings Elf"
"Greetings Dwarf"

Nothing special there. There are two great RPGs that have a set race and sex. I will mention one only for the purpose of avoiding huge flames.

Planescape.

Based on what you said, you clearly never played Dragon age Origins or you decided to use a fabrication to back your argument. Congrats, on invalidating your post. 

His version was the DAO I played.

Well, you must not have played that much, because Elves certainly get discriminated against and they are also treated differently by other Elves.  I've not completed a playthrough with a Dwarf, but from what I have played it is similar.  It's certainly not as strong a theme as it could be, but there are quite a few differences.

[Drachasor]

Oink wrote...

And instead of the mages vs templars thing, you would have elves vs humans plot, forcing you to choose between the race of your adoptive family and your own race. however, with humans looking down on you when they find out you were raised by elves (and everyone will find out, since you will become famous in Kirkwall) and elves not fully accepting you, since you are a human.

In my opinion, that could have been a much more engrossing plot than the one of DA2, but that's just my opinion...

Why wouldn't Elves or Dwarves care about Mages vs. Templars?  That's huge stuff for any surfacer Dwarf or Elf.  It wouldn't be hard to give each origin a personal connection to the struggle.

[Morroian]

Drachasor wrote...

Morroian wrote...

His version was the DAO I played.

Well, you must not have played that much, because Elves certainly get discriminated against and they are also treated differently by other Elves.  I've not completed a playthrough with a Dwarf, but from what I have played it is similar.  It's certainly not as strong a theme as it could be, but there are quite a few differences.

1 complete play through as an elf mage and a partial play through of the dalish elf.

[Drachasor]

Morroian wrote...

Drachasor wrote...

Morroian wrote...

His version was the DAO I played.

Well, you must not have played that much, because Elves certainly get discriminated against and they are also treated differently by other Elves.  I've not completed a playthrough with a Dwarf, but from what I have played it is similar.  It's certainly not as strong a theme as it could be, but there are quite a few differences.

1 complete play through as an elf mage and a partial play through of the dalish elf.

Well, I don't know what to say then.  I guess your recollection of the game isn't very good.  Or perhaps you aren't aware of the differences if you play a Dwarf of Human.

Modifié par Drachasor, 17 mai 2011 - 08:27 .

[Lumikki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I give up. People here are just being stubborn. Maybe I am too, but this is just pointless.

Yeah, I noticed that too. No point to argue, if someone thinks you can just swap other race and nothing need to be changed in story. I mean most of the story can be as it is, but races "nature" and "culture" does affect few stuff.  Even DAO had origin based start to make more sense and give better fit.  If you played elf in DAO, there where few case where it was noticed in the story. Same would need to be done for DA2. I mean even from other perspective, what's the point of having race, if it has absolute zero affect to anything. I my self would have wanted to have different races, but not like some of here suggests. I want to feel the culture differences between races in game world.

Modifié par Lumikki, 17 mai 2011 - 11:49 .

[SilentK]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

SilentK wrote...

I see that plenty of people have said it all ready but how I see it. Dwarves don't have magic and elves are 2:nd class people so they could not have a history of a noble family. My female elf warden that romanced king Alistair would have been mighty miffed if she could have been a noble in Kirkwall but not in Ferelden. Combine it and the Hawke that bioware wants to present is human.

Just how I see it. Have fun on the forum =)

As it has been said many times nothing in any of the main quests requires you to have magic in your blood or have nobility. Your sister or brother can either be a grey warden or even join the templars/mages - so once again I have proven that a dwarf or elven brother/sister can still leave at the end of act 1.

Quite right, before you start a q there is no check wheter or not your Hawke has any magical abilites. But you have to be Hawke. No matter what class you play, either your Hawke is a mage or your sister is a mage.

Restriction nr 1. One of the two remaining siblings will have magical abilities. Either Hawke or Bethany. Probably so that there will always be some personal connection to the templar-mage-situation. This excludes dwarves. If it wasn't for that limitation that there will always be a sibling with magic Hawke could probably have been a dwarf, but they didn't set up the game that way. There is no way in the game to not have either Hawke or Bethany as a mage.

Restriction nr 2. Hawke comes from a historical noble line in Kirkwall. A noble familyline that with magic. And it is nobility, it's a matter of a familyline and not of a fine house. You can be a dirt-poor noble living in a dump, but buying a fine house doesn't make one a noble. This excludes elves. Elves apparently belong in the alienage, an elf will not come from a noble family with the occasional mage.

It's background for the story that they have given. I don't think it's a matter of proving that it is necessary for every main q. Two siblings from a noble line, one of them has magic. This cannot be changed in the game so it is given. No matter what the main q's are.

All races can join the gray wardens, that is no problem. But not all races can be noble line with magic in the nice city of Kirkwall.

I guess you choose to see it differently. They want to present this version of Hawke. That is set. Or that's how I see it.

[Oink]

Drachasor wrote...

Oink wrote...

And instead of the mages vs templars thing, you would have elves vs humans plot, forcing you to choose between the race of your adoptive family and your own race. however, with humans looking down on you when they find out you were raised by elves (and everyone will find out, since you will become famous in Kirkwall) and elves not fully accepting you, since you are a human.

In my opinion, that could have been a much more engrossing plot than the one of DA2, but that's just my opinion...

Why wouldn't Elves or Dwarves care about Mages vs. Templars?  That's huge stuff for any surfacer Dwarf or Elf.  It wouldn't be hard to give each origin a personal connection to the struggle.

You completly missed my point. yes, the plot of DA 2 would have worked just fine if you played an elve or a dwarve and if you could pick any of the 3 races for your playthrough, that would have been great. yet, due to time and money constraints, Bioware could only create the game to fit one race and since i assume that most gamers given the choice out of the 3 races, would have preferred to play human, like myself, than that's what they went with.

However, throughout all of their commercial campaign for DA2, Bioware talked about how much  more of a personal experince it would be, compared to DA:O, which obviously it wasn't, because as you stated, with tiny tweaks, the plot could have fit either race, so what makes it persoanl? that's why i suggested my idea for an alternative plot for DA2, which would make the fact that you are human, an integral part of the plot.

And while we are on the subject, even the mages VS templars plot arc, could have been done much better. the whole: "oh hey, i'm a friedndly mage!", "why, hello templar!" "wait, why are you looking at me like that?" *templar hits mage* ," well, i'm backed to a corner, might as well try that blood magic i heard about!" *cuts his hand with a knife*, "OMG!!1 I'M THE OVERLORD!!!111 ALL KNEEL TO ME!!!11" - every single time! it was just annoying and "unrealistic" for the Dragon Age universe. instead, they could have made so that during the first half of the game, mages are almost always the victims, but during the second half, being pushed into the corner, they start turning to blood magic etc'. it makes more sense to me.