465 réponses à ce sujet

[Zem_]

Addai67 wrote...

Well for one, human "theme" is bland.

No it isn't.

You did have the apostate stuff, but that was not fleshed out much at all.

Execution.  Nothing to do with the topic of having just one origin.  DA2 has many flaws and not capitalizing on what you GAIN from having just one origin to deal with is definitely one of them.

For two, origin story x 6 > only one origin story.

Breadth vs. Depth.  Neither is inherently better and it's just a matter of opinion.  Even if DA2 did not take full advantage of it due to the rush-job of development, it's still not a bad idea to have one character origin that can then be explored more fully throughout the game instead of merely modifying a few conversations here and there.  One of the reasons I much prefer playing the human noble origin in DAO is, in fact, because that origin is most connected with the events of the game.  But even at the Landsmeet there is not all that much mention of the fact you are nobility.   You are just the Warden.  Had it been the only origin there could have been much greater involvement throughout the story.  You might have been able to go find Ferghus.  Every time I hear Morrigan explain why we shouldn't go look for him all I hear is, "Sorry... but we're in the post-Ostagar phase of the game and aside from mentioning his name in conversation we can't really have a whole quest about your origin.  We'd have to make such quests for all origins to be fair and that's just work work work!"

I mean sure, the origins were a nice touch but I've played too many good games that did NOT have multiple origins to really care about seeing them in every iteration of Dragon Age.  In fact I'm playing one of those great single-origin games right now.  Baldur's Gate 2.  And I'm even playing an elf but what happens when I get to the elf city?  "Oh hi... you're an elf!  But we're still going to treat you like a human outsider, k?"  Yeah whatever.

[Zem_]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Difference is no matter what class Hawke is the story is the same. In Origins, each race had subtle and unique differences.

VERY subtle.  There are absolutely no origin-specific side-quests.  There is nothing more significant than minor conversation changes (excepting perhaps the female human noble becoming queen-consort or whatever).  This makes for nice seasoning but I'd hardly call it substance.  By contrast a single origin game CAN have very substantial origin-related content.  Doesn't mean they made the best use of it in DA2 but this is hardly the shining example of a single-origin game.  You want one of those look to KOTOR.  Imagine having multiple origins there where your character was not, in fact, you-know-who.  Boooring.

Also I have 5 out of the 6 origins completed, and have replayed my three favorites, maybe when I have some free time I'd rather complete Dwarf Commoner Origin then play DA2 a second time but that will have to wait since Witcher 2 releases tomorrow. So as you can see, you can have more then one Origin, and each one could also provided for a greater sequel. It's a shame Bioware choose not to build on what was succesful in that game.

Just because it had multiple origins and was successful does not mean it was multiple origins that MADE it successful. In fact odds are good that their data proved to them that most people only played a single origin and that overwhelmingly it was the human noble origin.  Maybe the origins made the game successful for you... but that doesn't mean it's what made it successful all around.  I'd say that's far more likely a result of a more compelling story and a LOT more effort put into making the game.  There is simply no comparing the scale of the two games.

And as for providing a greater sequel... does it?  Are you likely to get anything very origin-specific in a sequel when the best they can do in the very FIRST game is merely paying lip-service and cameos?

[Serpieri Nei]

Lumikki wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I give up. People here are just being stubborn. Maybe I am too, but this is just pointless.

Yeah, I noticed that too. No point to argue, if someone thinks you can just swap other race and nothing need to be changed in story. I mean most of the story can be as it is, but races "nature" and "culture" does affect few stuff.  Even DAO had origin based start to make more sense and give better fit.  If you played elf in DAO, there where few case where it was noticed in the story. Same would need to be done for DA2. I mean even from other perspective, what's the point of having race, if it has absolute zero affect to anything. I my self would have wanted to have different races, but not like some of here suggests. I want to feel the culture differences between races in game world.

Is this another desperate attempt of you trying to get a point across instead of building/defending your arguments that have been whittled down to nothing. Since your not able disprove the ones that you don't agree with, it's clear that your close minded and unwilling to see things from a different perspective which is just one of the many reasons your rapidly losing ground. The other is how you keep sabatoging yourself.  Why did Hawke need to be human, exactly? Well, as you so elegantly said, in Origins there were instances in story that reflected nature and culture but in DA2 there is none which only strengthens the argument that story is not why Hawke needed to be human since its clear there are no story elements that support it unlike the ones found in Origins. Thanks for pointing out another area where Origins is superior to DA2.

[Huntress]

1)Hawk is human because: The Mother and father are Human.
2)He/she was not adopted.
3)The story is about a HUMAN family fleeing Lothering.

Should the story add more races as main character, sure, it would be hard for a dwarf to take sides with mages or templar tho.
1) ( most) Dwarves do not fear magic, they can't be mages.
2)they care little about chantry and templars ( they already have god's)

Any elf is seen as second class citizen, so even if you save the rich folks of kirkwal they will see you as an elf, not as an equal.
1)pointing you to: Alistair naming an elf in to court, the lords went crazy about that, they forgot that thanks to an elf they still have ferelden.

[Serpieri Nei]

SilentK wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

SilentK wrote...

I see that plenty of people have said it all ready but how I see it. Dwarves don't have magic and elves are 2:nd class people so they could not have a history of a noble family. My female elf warden that romanced king Alistair would have been mighty miffed if she could have been a noble in Kirkwall but not in Ferelden. Combine it and the Hawke that bioware wants to present is human.

Just how I see it. Have fun on the forum =)

As it has been said many times nothing in any of the main quests requires you to have magic in your blood or have nobility. Your sister or brother can either be a grey warden or even join the templars/mages - so once again I have proven that a dwarf or elven brother/sister can still leave at the end of act 1.

Quite right, before you start a q there is no check wheter or not your Hawke has any magical abilites. But you have to be Hawke. No matter what class you play, either your Hawke is a mage or your sister is a mage.

Restriction nr 1. One of the two remaining siblings will have magical abilities. Either Hawke or Bethany. Probably so that there will always be some personal connection to the templar-mage-situation. This excludes dwarves. If it wasn't for that limitation that there will always be a sibling with magic Hawke could probably have been a dwarf, but they didn't set up the game that way. There is no way in the game to not have either Hawke or Bethany as a mage.

Restriction nr 2. Hawke comes from a historical noble line in Kirkwall. A noble familyline that with magic. And it is nobility, it's a matter of a familyline and not of a fine house. You can be a dirt-poor noble living in a dump, but buying a fine house doesn't make one a noble. This excludes elves. Elves apparently belong in the alienage, an elf will not come from a noble family with the occasional mage.

It's background for the story that they have given. I don't think it's a matter of proving that it is necessary for every main q. Two siblings from a noble line, one of them has magic. This cannot be changed in the game so it is given. No matter what the main q's are.

All races can join the gray wardens, that is no problem. But not all races can be noble line with magic in the nice city of Kirkwall.

I guess you choose to see it differently. They want to present this version of Hawke. That is set. Or that's how I see it.

None of the main, companion, or side quests require Hawke to a mage or even to have a sister who is. This has already been proven multiple times, it's left to you to disprove it since that is your stance. Personal connection is not required to pick a side between the templars and mages, you are the Champion of Kirkwall which comes with the responsibility of protecting the city from threats which includes internal ones.

Do you know why Hawke is called Hawke and not Amell, even after acquiring their home? It's because he did not restore the Amell family line, he simply purchased the house his mother grow up in. When he was given the title of champion, Hawke's social status was elevetad and not the Amell's. 

If your not able to prove that an Elf is restricted from garnering wealth or owning property, your argument has no weight behind it. Do you know what they call a human alienage? Slums, Darktown, the poor quarter of the city, and so on.

Do you know what happens to nobles that have magic in the blood? Just ask Comtesse De Launcet? It's clear that you need more then money and status to avoid the templars. 

Your restrictions are easily circumvented. And Hawke has no other versions he's nothing more then a placeholder, if only he was fleshed out and then it wouldn't be so easy to disprove all this.

[Serpieri Nei]

Zem_ wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Difference is no matter what class Hawke is the story is the same. In Origins, each race had subtle and unique differences.

VERY subtle.  There are absolutely no origin-specific side-quests.  There is nothing more significant than minor conversation changes (excepting perhaps the female human noble becoming queen-consort or whatever).  This makes for nice seasoning but I'd hardly call it substance.  By contrast a single origin game CAN have very substantial origin-related content.  Doesn't mean they made the best use of it in DA2 but this is hardly the shining example of a single-origin game.  You want one of those look to KOTOR.  Imagine having multiple origins there where your character was not, in fact, you-know-who.  Boooring.

Also I have 5 out of the 6 origins completed, and have replayed my three favorites, maybe when I have some free time I'd rather complete Dwarf Commoner Origin then play DA2 a second time but that will have to wait since Witcher 2 releases tomorrow. So as you can see, you can have more then one Origin, and each one could also provided for a greater sequel. It's a shame Bioware choose not to build on what was succesful in that game.

Just because it had multiple origins and was successful does not mean it was multiple origins that MADE it successful. In fact odds are good that their data proved to them that most people only played a single origin and that overwhelmingly it was the human noble origin.  Maybe the origins made the game successful for you... but that doesn't mean it's what made it successful all around.  I'd say that's far more likely a result of a more compelling story and a LOT more effort put into making the game.  There is simply no comparing the scale of the two games.

And as for providing a greater sequel... does it?  Are you likely to get anything very origin-specific in a sequel when the best they can do in the very FIRST game is merely paying lip-service and cameos?

What does sidequests have to do with the subtle and unique experiences in Origins? Are you trying to say that there is no difference between a human noble that was betrayed and her family wiped out compared to a city elf that was almost raped/killed and forced to flee her home from injustice? Or a Dalish Elf who's body and heart was poisoned by the taint? Who left everything she loved and has come to known to venture into a world full of shemlen? Glad you agree that DA2 is not a shining example.

Imagine having multiple origins there where your character was not, in fact, you-know-who.  Boooring. Are you trying to be obtuse? or did you forget what you were trying to say here?

Are you going to point out where a Dev said the majority of players only played a single origin and that origin was the human noble? Are you going to point out where on the Origin forums people didn't praise the concept? or did not like to have choice? You are correct that we shouldn't compare DA2 to Origins, it simply can't compare to it's predecessor.  

It's clear you failed to read what can be carried over to the sequel or you're unaware of it possible due to limited experience with origins.

[happy_daiz]

Is there any point in worrying about Hawke being human? The game has been released. Hawke is human. No amount of debate is going to change that.

[Drasanil]

happy_daiz wrote...

Is there any point in worrying about Hawke being human? The game has been released. Hawke is human. No amount of debate is going to change that.

1) Apparently is not that hard a problem to fix since modders are half-doing it already, logically Bioware could even more easily....

2) ....and more importantly if we make enough noise about it Bioware (hopefully) won't saddle us with another Shepard clone in DAIII.

So yes, yes there is a point.

[Serpieri Nei]

happy_daiz wrote...

Is there any point in worrying about Hawke being human? The game has been released. Hawke is human. No amount of debate is going to change that.

The original intent was the reason behind why Hawke was made human, not why he is human. No one needs a lesson in biology. It's clear it isn't the story, the most plausible reason is limited time/resources which left Hawke as an unfinished protaganist.

[Drachasor]

Zem_ wrote...

VERY subtle.  There are absolutely no origin-specific side-quests.  There is nothing more significant than minor conversation changes (excepting perhaps the female human noble becoming queen-consort or whatever).  This makes for nice seasoning but I'd hardly call it substance.  By contrast a single origin game CAN have very substantial origin-related content.  Doesn't mean they made the best use of it in DA2 but this is hardly the shining example of a single-origin game.  You want one of those look to KOTOR.  Imagine having multiple origins there where your character was not, in fact, you-know-who.  Boooring.

There ARE origin specific side-quests in DA:O.  Off the top of my head, if you are a Dwarf Noble, then you can father a child and work to get that child noble status.  If you are a mage, then you can get the Chantry Board quest dealing with Jowan.  There are a number of sublte things as well.  More to the point though, each origin has a bunch of unique origin quests in the beginning, which isn't something one should overlook.

And you know what?  KOTOR is actually a excellent example of how you could have multiple races.  Is there anything very important about the main character being human?  Sure, there are key elements you'd have to keep for the story (such as being you-know-who), but race isn't one of them.  The same is true in pretty much any game, DA2 included.  Each origin could have its own bit of content involved in it.  Obviously DA:O spent most of its unique content to the beginning of the game, but there's no reason that you couldn't have unique quests and content spread throughout the game instead (e.g. each race options begins by running from Lothering or some such thing).

[Marionetten]

happy_daiz wrote...

Is there any point in worrying about Hawke being human? The game has been released. Hawke is human. No amount of debate is going to change that.

The idea is to prevent the same from occuring in Dragon Age III. Personally, I'd love to see more origins added to Dragon Age II in the form of DLC but I doubt that will happen.

[Kangasniemi]

Drachasor wrote...

Zem_ wrote...

VERY subtle.  There are absolutely no origin-specific side-quests.  There is nothing more significant than minor conversation changes (excepting perhaps the female human noble becoming queen-consort or whatever).  This makes for nice seasoning but I'd hardly call it substance.  By contrast a single origin game CAN have very substantial origin-related content.  Doesn't mean they made the best use of it in DA2 but this is hardly the shining example of a single-origin game.  You want one of those look to KOTOR.  Imagine having multiple origins there where your character was not, in fact, you-know-who.  Boooring.

There ARE origin specific side-quests in DA:O.  Off the top of my head, if you are a Dwarf Noble, then you can father a child and work to get that child noble status.  If you are a mage, then you can get the Chantry Board quest dealing with Jowan.  There are a number of sublte things as well.  More to the point though, each origin has a bunch of unique origin quests in the beginning, which isn't something one should overlook.

And you know what?  KOTOR is actually a excellent example of how you could have multiple races.  Is there anything very important about the main character being human?  Sure, there are key elements you'd have to keep for the story (such as being you-know-who), but race isn't one of them.  The same is true in pretty much any game, DA2 included.  Each origin could have its own bit of content involved in it.  Obviously DA:O spent most of its unique content to the beginning of the game, but there's no reason that you couldn't have unique quests and content spread throughout the game instead (e.g. each race options begins by running from Lothering or some such thing).

Too bad there isn't any family related quests in DA2. Something like getting a house or something like that. Oh wait...

I have never seen such schizophrenic people every where. First you complain how the nobily quest have nothing to do with the game what so ever and then without taking a breath you claim that DA:O has huge ammount of small nyances that make the story more lively. I mean come on, do you even read what you write?

The fact is that there isn't a game in which the PC race (if you can choose a race) has any REAL consequences. It always comes to some starting lines in dialogue and that's it. In DA:O does any one refuse to give you a quest because of your race? Does a companion refuse to join your party because of your race? Does the main plot have any meaningfull difference based on PC's race? The answer is no to all.

As long as the race is trivialized in games like it is now making games with multiple races is a complete waste of recourses. Choose on race and make a strong story around it rather than trivialize the race and actually go against the lore you are trying to set up.

Oh and most of this post is directed to every one in this thread, only the first lines are reply to Drachasor.

[Drachasor]

Kangasniemi wrote...

Drachasor wrote...

Zem_ wrote...

VERY subtle.  There are absolutely no origin-specific side-quests.  There is nothing more significant than minor conversation changes (excepting perhaps the female human noble becoming queen-consort or whatever).  This makes for nice seasoning but I'd hardly call it substance.  By contrast a single origin game CAN have very substantial origin-related content.  Doesn't mean they made the best use of it in DA2 but this is hardly the shining example of a single-origin game.  You want one of those look to KOTOR.  Imagine having multiple origins there where your character was not, in fact, you-know-who.  Boooring.

There ARE origin specific side-quests in DA:O.  Off the top of my head, if you are a Dwarf Noble, then you can father a child and work to get that child noble status.  If you are a mage, then you can get the Chantry Board quest dealing with Jowan.  There are a number of sublte things as well.  More to the point though, each origin has a bunch of unique origin quests in the beginning, which isn't something one should overlook.

And you know what?  KOTOR is actually a excellent example of how you could have multiple races.  Is there anything very important about the main character being human?  Sure, there are key elements you'd have to keep for the story (such as being you-know-who), but race isn't one of them.  The same is true in pretty much any game, DA2 included.  Each origin could have its own bit of content involved in it.  Obviously DA:O spent most of its unique content to the beginning of the game, but there's no reason that you couldn't have unique quests and content spread throughout the game instead (e.g. each race options begins by running from Lothering or some such thing).

Too bad there isn't any family related quests in DA2. Something like getting a house or something like that. Oh wait...

I have never seen such schizophrenic people every where. First you complain how the nobily quest have nothing to do with the game what so ever and then without taking a breath you claim that DA:O has huge ammount of small nyances that make the story more lively. I mean come on, do you even read what you write?

The fact is that there isn't a game in which the PC race (if you can choose a race) has any REAL consequences. It always comes to some starting lines in dialogue and that's it. In DA:O does any one refuse to give you a quest because of your race? Does a companion refuse to join your party because of your race? Does the main plot have any meaningfull difference based on PC's race? The answer is no to all.

As long as the race is trivialized in games like it is now making games with multiple races is a complete waste of recourses. Choose on race and make a strong story around it rather than trivialize the race and actually go against the lore you are trying to set up.

Oh and most of this post is directed to every one in this thread, only the first lines are reply to Drachasor.

And Elves and Dwarves can't have families?  Or is it that they can't buy houses?  There's certainly no lore in the game that implies they couldn't buy a house in High Town (and in fact lore on the alienage specifically states that Elves can live anywhere they choose if they have the money).

And I've been perfectly consistent here.  There's nothing here that requires you to be human anymore than there was anything in DA:O that required you to be one race or another (e.g. only a human noble can become King/Queen of Fereldan).  The only difference is that DA:O actually gave you a CHOICE.  I don't see how giving players choices, even if they only result in small differences, is somehow a waste of resources.  Might as well say they shouldn't let you modify your appearance since it doesn't matter.

I've further added that an improvement on the DA:O system would be to spread out the unique origin quests over the course of the game so it all doesn't come at once.  That's certainly doable with a bit of work regarding branching and such, would certainly make each origin feel more significant over the course of the game (rather than just at the beginning).  With a story like DA:2, starting at or near the a point where you are fleeing Lothering, this would work rather well.

[Drasanil]

Kangasniemi wrote...
Too bad there isn't any family related quests in DA2. Something like getting a house or something like that. Oh wait...

There is no quest, not really, it just happens when you get to ACT II. There was more stuff in any pre-Ostagar origin than there was "family" stuff in the entirety of DAII. Hawke and his family were just as, if not more, poorly fleshed out than the origins from DAO, we were promised a gripping personal story and we got at best a broken up DAO origin stretched over three Acts III. We lost the choice of race in exchange for an even more trivilialised background.

[Zem_]

Serpieri Nei wrote...
What does sidequests have to do with the subtle and unique experiences in Origins?

Nothing.  That's the point.  If there were origin-specific sidequests then we wouldn't be calling the differences between the origins "subtle".  We would use a word like "significant" or "consequential" to describe the origin choice and its effect on gameplay beyond the origin-intro itself.

Are you trying to say that there is no difference between a human noble that was betrayed and her family wiped out compared to a city elf that was almost raped/killed and forced to flee her home from injustice? Or a Dalish Elf who's body and heart was poisoned by the taint? Who left everything she loved and has come to known to venture into a world full of shemlen?

From a gameplay standpoint there is no significant difference, yes.  Does being a dwarf noble give you any alternative means of resolving the Orzammar situation that is not also available to any other origin?  It can cause some difference in the epilogue but not really during the game.   During the game you are recognized as the exiled dwarf but given no means of really clearing your name or anything that is specific to your origin.  This is why I call it "lip service".  People talk about your origin but don't usually actually let you DO anything because of it.

Glad you agree that DA2 is not a shining example.

Do you understand WHY I mentioned that?  A few posts back when you first responded to me the point I was really on about is the criticism that you can't roleplay Hawke like you can the Warden because Hawke is a stock character, meaning you had no choice of origin.   I don't buy that reason because once you have chosen an origin in DAO, your character is as much a stock character as is Hawke, so why should there be a difference in roleplay quality comparing Hawke to any ONE of the origins in DAO?  If there is, it's not because you did not have a choice of origin.  It's something else.  In other words, it's likely because DA2 just isn't the same quality of game overall as DAO even just comparing one origin in DAO to a play-through of Hawke in DA2.

Imagine having multiple origins there where your character was not, in fact, you-know-who.  Boooring. Are you trying to be obtuse? or did you forget what you were trying to say here?

Not sure why this was confusing.  I was simply pointing out that a single-origin game need not be as badly done as DA2.  KOTOR is an example of a single origin game where WHO the character really was was integral to the story of the game.  It mattered that you were a specific person with a specific history not just that you were a Jedi.  Could they have redone the story so that it didn't matter?  Sure.  But it would have been a less interesting story, in my opinion. 

Are you going to point out where a Dev said the majority of players only played a single origin and that origin was the human noble?

If I was, I wouldn't have said "Odds are good".  I do believe that on average people are more likely to choose a character they most easily identify with.  Thinking about it again, it's just as likely to be human mage origin, I suppose.  Mages are a popular choice in RPGs.  The human noble has, I think, the most connection to events of the game.  It's your country.  Your king at Ostagar.  Your revenge not just for the Wardens lost at Ostagar who you hardly had a chance to know, but for your family when you kill Howe.  You belong at the Landsmeet if not as the Warden leading all those armies, as a peer (because at the time for all they know you are the sole remaining heir of Bryce Cousland).  So it's a guess... but not an uninformed one, I think.  Take it as such.

Are you going to point out where on the Origin forums people didn't praise the concept? or did not like to have choice?

You act like I'm saying it's a bad idea.  It's a trade-off.  Multiple origins means less character-specific story later on.  It is by no means a win-win.

It's clear you failed to read what can be carried over to the sequel or you're unaware of it possible due to limited experience with origins.

Can be or actually WAS carried over?  Because all I got from my human noble import was some dialogue here and there and a few cameos that did not actually affect the story in DA2 one bit.  Was there something more significant from the others?  Anything that actually changed the story?  Because I doubt it.

[Serpieri Nei]

Kangasniemi wrote...

Drachasor wrote...

Zem_ wrote...

VERY subtle.  There are absolutely no origin-specific side-quests.  There is nothing more significant than minor conversation changes (excepting perhaps the female human noble becoming queen-consort or whatever).  This makes for nice seasoning but I'd hardly call it substance.  By contrast a single origin game CAN have very substantial origin-related content.  Doesn't mean they made the best use of it in DA2 but this is hardly the shining example of a single-origin game.  You want one of those look to KOTOR.  Imagine having multiple origins there where your character was not, in fact, you-know-who.  Boooring.

There ARE origin specific side-quests in DA:O.  Off the top of my head, if you are a Dwarf Noble, then you can father a child and work to get that child noble status.  If you are a mage, then you can get the Chantry Board quest dealing with Jowan.  There are a number of sublte things as well.  More to the point though, each origin has a bunch of unique origin quests in the beginning, which isn't something one should overlook.

And you know what?  KOTOR is actually a excellent example of how you could have multiple races.  Is there anything very important about the main character being human?  Sure, there are key elements you'd have to keep for the story (such as being you-know-who), but race isn't one of them.  The same is true in pretty much any game, DA2 included.  Each origin could have its own bit of content involved in it.  Obviously DA:O spent most of its unique content to the beginning of the game, but there's no reason that you couldn't have unique quests and content spread throughout the game instead (e.g. each race options begins by running from Lothering or some such thing).

Too bad there isn't any family related quests in DA2. Something like getting a house or something like that. Oh wait...

I have never seen such schizophrenic people every where. First you complain how the nobily quest have nothing to do with the game what so ever and then without taking a breath you claim that DA:O has huge ammount of small nyances that make the story more lively. I mean come on, do you even read what you write?

The fact is that there isn't a game in which the PC race (if you can choose a race) has any REAL consequences. It always comes to some starting lines in dialogue and that's it. In DA:O does any one refuse to give you a quest because of your race? Does a companion refuse to join your party because of your race? Does the main plot have any meaningfull difference based on PC's race? The answer is no to all.

As long as the race is trivialized in games like it is now making games with multiple races is a complete waste of recourses. Choose on race and make a strong story around it rather than trivialize the race and actually go against the lore you are trying to set up.

Oh and most of this post is directed to every one in this thread, only the first lines are reply to Drachasor.

You are incorrect it has already been said that each origin provided subtle and unique experiences which goes beyond the starting lines of dialogue. The way story is written and the gameplay elements in place, race can be introduced without changing the main plots of DA2. In origins, you cannot substitute a Dalish Elf for a Human.

If you want to discuss the quest givers in origins that should of not dealt with an elf or a dwarf or a mage because of his hatred or loathing for that race and we can also discuss the origin stories.  I'll meet you in the origin forums and I can only hope you do some research before you post.  

Now, let's take a look at what you said as long as the race is trivialized in games it's a waste of resources. You are aware that the same can be said of classes? If people don't recognize that I am a mage when I wear robes/wield a magical staff it’s as plain as an elf with pointy ears or a dwarf half my height. So one can say to include the race or that class does not benefit the story but actually hurts it.

But this so called trivialization didn’t stop the Mage class from roaming free in Kirkwall, dealing with the Arishok/Viscount, or becoming Champion/Viscount in a city that FEARS them. 

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 17 mai 2011 - 09:36 .

[Kangasniemi]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Kangasniemi wrote...

Drachasor wrote...

Zem_ wrote...

VERY subtle.  There are absolutely no origin-specific side-quests.  There is nothing more significant than minor conversation changes (excepting perhaps the female human noble becoming queen-consort or whatever).  This makes for nice seasoning but I'd hardly call it substance.  By contrast a single origin game CAN have very substantial origin-related content.  Doesn't mean they made the best use of it in DA2 but this is hardly the shining example of a single-origin game.  You want one of those look to KOTOR.  Imagine having multiple origins there where your character was not, in fact, you-know-who.  Boooring.

There ARE origin specific side-quests in DA:O.  Off the top of my head, if you are a Dwarf Noble, then you can father a child and work to get that child noble status.  If you are a mage, then you can get the Chantry Board quest dealing with Jowan.  There are a number of sublte things as well.  More to the point though, each origin has a bunch of unique origin quests in the beginning, which isn't something one should overlook.

And you know what?  KOTOR is actually a excellent example of how you could have multiple races.  Is there anything very important about the main character being human?  Sure, there are key elements you'd have to keep for the story (such as being you-know-who), but race isn't one of them.  The same is true in pretty much any game, DA2 included.  Each origin could have its own bit of content involved in it.  Obviously DA:O spent most of its unique content to the beginning of the game, but there's no reason that you couldn't have unique quests and content spread throughout the game instead (e.g. each race options begins by running from Lothering or some such thing).

Too bad there isn't any family related quests in DA2. Something like getting a house or something like that. Oh wait...

I have never seen such schizophrenic people every where. First you complain how the nobily quest have nothing to do with the game what so ever and then without taking a breath you claim that DA:O has huge ammount of small nyances that make the story more lively. I mean come on, do you even read what you write?

The fact is that there isn't a game in which the PC race (if you can choose a race) has any REAL consequences. It always comes to some starting lines in dialogue and that's it. In DA:O does any one refuse to give you a quest because of your race? Does a companion refuse to join your party because of your race? Does the main plot have any meaningfull difference based on PC's race? The answer is no to all.

As long as the race is trivialized in games like it is now making games with multiple races is a complete waste of recourses. Choose on race and make a strong story around it rather than trivialize the race and actually go against the lore you are trying to set up.

Oh and most of this post is directed to every one in this thread, only the first lines are reply to Drachasor.

You are incorrect it has already been said that each origin provided subtle and unique experiences which goes beyond the starting lines of dialogue. The way story is written and the gameplay elements in place, race can be introduced without changing the main plots of DA2. In origins, you cannot substitute a Dalish Elf for a Human.

The warden could just as well be replaced with a mabari or a sloth demon and it would have no effect on the MAIN plot of DA:O. Same way as you say that Hawke's family quests aren't main quests neither are anything in the origins. DA:O's main plot begins in Ostagar not before. And it doesn't matter for the MAIN plot what the warden is. So saying Hawke's race doesn't have any effect on the main plot means warden's race have no effect so race is a moot point in both games, hence making multiple races is a waste of time and money.

If you want to discuss the quest givers in origins that should of not dealt with an elf or a dwarf or a mage because of his hatred or loathing for that race and we can also discuss the origin stories.  I'll meet you in the origin forums and I can only hope you do some research before you post.

Name one MAIN quests that you can't complete because of your race and a I'll shut up. Note that by YOUR standards the main plot includes battle of ostagar, help mages, help elves, help dwarves, landsmeet, kill archdemon. Everything else is just useless side quests that have no effect on the game what so ever. Note that you use the same kind of generalization on DA2 so use it on DA:O also. 

Now, let's take a look at what you said as long as the race is trivialized in games it's a waste of resources. You are aware that the same can be said of classes? If people don't recognize that I am a mage when I wear robes/wield a magical staff it’s as plain as an elf with pointy ears or a dwarf half my height. So one can say to include the race or that class does not benefit the story but actually hurts it.

But this so called trivialization didn’t stop the Mage class from roaming free in Kirkwall, dealing with the Arishok/Viscount, or becoming Champion/Viscount in a city that FEARS them. 

The same can't be said on classes. The classes change the mechanics of the game, mainly combat mechanics but still they change the game, though over all simplification that is going on in every game now days makes the change smaller and smaller but it still is there. Race on the other hand changes nothing.

The mage thing in DA2 and also in DA:O does stretch the suspension of disbelief quite badly but that is nothing new in computer games.

In a perfect world where game companies would have all the time and all the money in the universe they could make games that are unique to all classes and races, but that would mean creating 18 (3 races, 2 genders, 3 classes) games and selling them as one. It's a nice idea but so is communism and neither of them works in a real world. And because we live in the real world, it's better to make one race as good as it can be than to have multiple half-assed creations.

[Drasanil]

Kangasniemi wrote...
In a perfect world where game companies would have all the time and all the money in the universe they could make games that are unique to all classes and races, but that would mean creating 18 (3 races, 2 genders, 3 classes) games and selling them as one. It's a nice idea but so is communism and neither of them works in a real world. And because we live in the real world, it's better to make one race as good as it can be than to have multiple half-assed creations.

And because we live in the real world you should know, such measures are never really implemented to improve upon quality, rather that's a catch phrase to hide the fact they're cutting costs which will result in a single half-arsed creation as opposed to 6. Really, if we're going to play "how the real world works" you might as well use the logic properly.

Modifié par Drasanil, 17 mai 2011 - 10:32 .

[Serpieri Nei]

Zem_ wrote...
/snip

You should really stop being selective in your reading. Origins provided subtle and unique
experiences throughout the story.

From a gameplay standpoint there is significance, the story does affect the way you play. People on these forums have stated also it in various forums in DA2. How they played their elf different from the human or how choices they made differed as an elf because the way the story unfolded. Unless, you mean gameplay as how combat is resolved, did it change how my fireballs worked, or my bow should have a +2 because I am elf. To those that want to see things like that, just remember this isn’t D&D. Now, if you didn’t care for either of the stories or the subtle or unique events, others did.

I suggest you watch the video, regarding the Dwarf Noble, not only did he have the means to clear his name. He did.



A stock character would not differ from another stock character in Origins, which has already been proven wrong since each origin has subtle and unique differences. In DA2, a Warrior Hawke, a Rogue Hawke, a Mage Hawke is as you say a stock character. Nothing differentiates them. It’s clear that DA2 is of lower quality.

I’m aware you said “Odds are good”. I can also say the opposite but I won’t because I prefer to have data or examples I can use to back up my points. People have different reasons why they chose to play a certain class or race, and none of those reasons are wrong. If that wasn’t true the web would not be filled with fan sites devoted to elves, dwarves, and so on. I have yet to see one for humans, maybe you can point one out? Personally, I preferred the Dalish to the City elf, followed by the mage then the human.

So in the trade off, we got a placeholder called Hawke, a poorly executed frame narrative, recycled content, and several gameplay elements removed or marginalized. What did we get in return?

I wasn’t referring to DA2 on what could have been carried over from origins since Bioware decided to have the game take place Kirkwall, so a player is unable to see those choices/boons come to fruition, and most likely in DA3 it will be the same.

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 17 mai 2011 - 11:33 .

[Kangasniemi]

Drasanil wrote...

Kangasniemi wrote...
In a perfect world where game companies would have all the time and all the money in the universe they could make games that are unique to all classes and races, but that would mean creating 18 (3 races, 2 genders, 3 classes) games and selling them as one. It's a nice idea but so is communism and neither of them works in a real world. And because we live in the real world, it's better to make one race as good as it can be than to have multiple half-assed creations.

And because we live in the real world you should know, such measures are never really implemented to improve upon quality, rather that's a catch phrase to hide the fact they're cutting costs which will result in a single half-arsed creation as opposed to 6. Really, if we're going to play "how the real world works" you might as well use the logic properly.

Increasing the ammount of horse s*t doesn't make it any more desirable. Trying to reach for the moon when your publisher wants the game out quick (looking at you Obsidian) is always a bad idea. Leaving useless stuff out from the start makes much better games when time is of the essence.

[Drasanil]

Kangasniemi wrote...
Leaving useless stuff out from the start makes much better games when time is of the essence.

1) Definitions of "useless" vary, personally I thought Hawke was useless given the events of DAII so they might as well have just cut him/her out and let you RTS style control your companions.

2) That sort of behaviour only encourages publishers to push for even faster releases, resulting in even shodier products.  Much better to be ambitious and then cut out as necessary than limit yourself from the get go and cut further.

[Kangasniemi]

Drasanil wrote...

Kangasniemi wrote...
Leaving useless stuff out from the start makes much better games when time is of the essence.

1) Definitions of "useless" vary, personally I thought Hawke was useless given the events of DAII so they might as well have just cut him/her out and let you RTS style control your companions.

2) That sort of behaviour only encourages publishers to push for even faster releases, resulting in even shodier products.  Much better to be ambitious and then cut out as necessary than limit yourself from the get go and cut further.

1. If you mean Hawke being use by the RPG cliche "I am the new jesus and I'll save the world" I am glad Hawke is by your words "useless". In reality Hawke is the catalysist that makes things happen. He doesn't make things happen as a messiah but with out him the war would not have started.

2. The faster and faster publish rate has been going on since the launch of X-box 360. You must push for shorter development if you want to make any money, thanks to the insane licencing fees the current consoles have and the increased demands on graphics. So unless you have a series that will sell millions no matter what you do (CoD series) you must cut some corners to make any money. Yes the system is quite flawed but it won't be changing any time soon, or atleast untill developers ditch the consoles and star making games solely for the PC.

[LioTheAwesome]

I wish he could of been an elf...

[Drasanil]

Kangasniemi wrote...
1. If you mean Hawke being use by the RPG cliche "I am the new jesus and I'll save the world" I am glad Hawke is by your words "useless". In reality Hawke is the catalysist that makes things happen. He doesn't make things happen as a messiah but with out him the war would not have started.

No, he was useless in that he really had no actual input in how the events unfolded. Even the "catalyst" argument is only semi-valid, he found the red-glowy-bad rock, which wasn't even necessary, it was just a plot device stappled on character who left to her own devices would have done the same any ways, it was just a narrative trick to make you think Hawke did "something"... same with the situation with the Qunari, Anders, Isabella. None of the major events required Hawke to happen.

Hawke was useless not because he wasn't the next "messiah" but a) you could have taken him/her out of the equation and recieved the same out come and you as Hawke had no real input in how things played out regardless of what you "chose".

2. The faster and faster publish rate has been going on since the launch of X-box 360. You must push for shorter development if you want to make any money, thanks to the insane licencing fees the current consoles have and the increased demands on graphics. So unless you have a series that will sell millions no matter what you do (CoD series) you must cut some corners to make any money. Yes the system is quite flawed but it won't be changing any time soon, or atleast untill developers ditch the consoles and star making games solely for the PC.

Doesn't seem to be a problem for certain other developpers, like at Bethesda, Skyrim looks b*tching and it is doing a multi platform release.

Modifié par Drasanil, 17 mai 2011 - 11:17 .

[Serpieri Nei]

Kangasniemi wrote...

/snip

Did you miss the part where race, class and even your sex are mentioned? Interesting, you do understand that fabrication can be seen as symptom of schizophrenia. If I were you I’d be careful what words I throw around. The only thing that is moot is that Origins allows you play different races that have subtle and unique gameplay experiences unlike a Warrior Hawke, Rogue Hawke, and especially a Mage Hawke. Making Multiple Races is a waste of time of money, care to provide an example? Would you like me point out a few games where you’re wrong? I’ll give you a hint, one of them has the same name of the game were talking about.

It’s clear that not only are you taking things out of context but your also suffering from reading comprehension which is addling your ability to have a discussion. You are aware that the origin quests are unique to each race and are not accessible by the others. So when are you going to Origin forums to discuss the quest givers, don’t tell me you opened your mouth and had intention to back it up. The point that I made is that the story and plot does not reference race, or class. And the game itself provides ample proof that one did not need to be human to purchase a manor and so on, How an Apostate is ignored and more. I find it curious that you did not challenge any of those points, was it because you’re incapable of it? Or do you want to discuss if a Quanari can be introduced into Origins?

The same can be said of classes, were not discussing combat mechanics here.  Due try to stay on topic here. The mage thing?, like teleporting rogues, or warriors causing ground tremors. Do you even have an understanding of what is being discussed here?

Wait, now were discussing communism? Do you suffer from Schizophrenia? The only thing that you said that makes sense so far is that time/money are the contributing factors to what gets put into the game. Are you even aware that you post vindicate what I believe to be the more plausible reason that Hawke is Human because of
limited time/resources?  

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 17 mai 2011 - 11:32 .