465 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

I will only say this: people mention the Hero of Ferelen as a justification for why Hawke could be another race... but Bioware did a terrible job outside of the origin for justifying the Hero of Ferelden as a non-human past the Blight (why would racist humans not give 100% of the credit to the human Grey Warden who was at the battle versus a non-human Warden?). That ignores other failures of implementation of this sort for Bioware.

[Kangasniemi]

Drasanil wrote...

Kangasniemi wrote...
1. If you mean Hawke being use by the RPG cliche "I am the new jesus and I'll save the world" I am glad Hawke is by your words "useless". In reality Hawke is the catalysist that makes things happen. He doesn't make things happen as a messiah but with out him the war would not have started.

No, he was useless in that he really had no actual input in how the events unfolded. Even the "catalyst" argument is only semi-valid, he found the red-glowy-bad rock, which wasn't even necessary, it was just a plot device stappled on character who left to her own devices would have done the same any ways, it was just a narrative trick to make you think Hawke did "something"... same with the situation with the Qunari, Anders, Isabella. None of the major events required Hawke to happen.

Hawke was useless not because he wasn't the next "messiah" but a) you could have taken him/her out of the equation and recieved the same out come and you as Hawke had no real input in how things played out regardless of what you "chose".

Without Hawke Anders never leaves the clinic or is killed by templars and no one notices. Without Hawke a certain artifact is never found and a certain character never goes ape sh*t crazy on everyone. Without Hawke the qunari kill all the nobles and the king in Kirkwall and most likely the better part of the citizens thus destroying the city. So Hawke is quite clearly the most important character in the story.

2. The faster and faster publish rate has been going on since the launch of X-box 360. You must push for shorter development if you want to make any money, thanks to the insane licencing fees the current consoles have and the increased demands on graphics. So unless you have a series that will sell millions no matter what you do (CoD series) you must cut some corners to make any money. Yes the system is quite flawed but it won't be changing any time soon, or atleast untill developers ditch the consoles and star making games solely for the PC.

Doesn't seem to be a problem for certain other developpers, like at Bethesda, Skyrim looks b*tching and it is doing a multi platform release.

Skyrim looks great, but judging from the previous games by Bethesda there won't be a plot in the game. Bethesda can't write a decent plot if their lives depended on it. The open world roaming system is fun but if you want anything that resembles a plot in a game you better look somewhere else. And Bethesdas system of publish a beta and let players mod it so it's playable isn't really a good policy. I mean you must be the worlds biggest masochist if you play any of Bethesdas games without mods. So Bethesda does cut a whole hell of a lot corners in their games. And FYI, Bethesda is one of the publishers whose products sell millions of copies no matter they make just like CoD.

[Drasanil]

In Exile wrote...
I will only say this: people mention the Hero of Ferelen as a justification for why Hawke could be another race... but Bioware did a terrible job outside of the origin for justifying the Hero of Ferelden as a non-human past the Blight (why would racist humans not give 100% of the credit to the human Grey Warden who was at the battle versus a non-human Warden?).

Because there's no real reason not too? Garahel got full credit for ending the fourth blight and he was an elf, that didn't threaten the local human-supremascist organisation, so why would your warden? That said, there's also the fact that the other human warden was either the king and your friend who gave you credit for it or a disgraced traitor would be even less popular than your elven or dwarven Warden. Really that's a pretty shallow complaint.

Modifié par Drasanil, 17 mai 2011 - 11:41 .

[Drasanil]

Kangasniemi wrote...

Without Hawke Anders never leaves the clinic or is killed by templars and no one notices.

 
Anders never leaves the clinic, no one notices not even the templars as the refugees protect him, justice eventually takes over, he blows up the chantry

Without Hawke a certain artifact is never found and a certain character never goes ape sh*t crazy on everyone.

Clearly you just ignored what I wrote. Meredith was already going apesh*t, the artifact is just a plot device to make it seem like you did something and justify the ridiculous boss fight with er, she would have gone apesh*t with out it. 

Without Hawke the qunari kill all the nobles and the king in Kirkwall and most likely the better part of the citizens thus destroying the city.

With out Hawke the guard, army and mages would have eventually retaken the thing, the viscount dies despite Hawke, the nobles would have pretended to convert to save their hides (you know like normal people would) and nothing much would have changed. Some other mook would have been declared champion.

So Hawke is quite clearly the most important character in the story.

No, Isabella, Anders, Meredith and Orsino all share that title... mind you that's because they carried the largest sack of idiot balls, but any single one of them had more impact on the story than Hawke.

Skyrim looks great, but judging from the previous games by Bethesda there won't be a plot in the game. Bethesda can't write a decent plot if their lives depended on it. The open world roaming system is fun but if you want anything that resembles a plot in a game you better look somewhere else. And Bethesdas system of publish a beta and let players mod it so it's playable isn't really a good policy. I mean you must be the worlds biggest masochist if you play any of Bethesdas games without mods. So Bethesda does cut a whole hell of a lot corners in their games. And FYI, Bethesda is one of the publishers whose products sell millions of copies no matter they make just like CoD.

Bethesda can do good plots when they want to and the new NPCs mechanics for Skyrim make it look like they've definitely put some effort in upping their game.

Oblivion had a **** plot. Morrowind on the other had many good plots and was quite fun, I still play the later from time to time... the former not so much. But yes mods make things even better, same with Bioware games, the story's often great but you still need mods to flesh things out further. NWN had the lifespan it did because of the mod community, DAO is starting to develop extended quests and such.... DAII far less likely given the toolset seems to be a no go this time around. 

[Kangasniemi]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Kangasniemi wrote...

/snip

Did you miss the part where race, class and even your sex are mentioned? Interesting, you do understand that fabrication can be seen as symptom of schizophrenia. If I were you I’d be careful what words I throw around. The only thing that is moot is that Origins allows you play different races that have subtle and unique gameplay experiences unlike a Warrior Hawke, Rogue Hawke, and especially a Mage Hawke. Making Multiple Races is a waste of time of money, care to provide an example? Would you like me point out a few games where you’re wrong? I’ll give you a hint, one of them has the same name of the game were talking about.

It’s clear that not only are you taking things out of context but your also suffering from reading comprehension which is addling your ability to have a discussion. You are aware that the origin quests are unique to each race and are not accessible by the others. So when are you going to Origin forums to discuss the quest givers, don’t tell me you opened your mouth and had intention to back it up. The point that I made is that the story and plot does not reference race, or class. And the game itself provides ample proof that one did not need to be human to purchase a manor and so on, How an Apostate is ignored and more. I find it curious that you did not challenge any of those points, was it because you’re incapable of it? Or do you want to discuss if a Quanari can be introduced into Origins?

The same can be said of classes, were not discussing combat mechanics here.  Due try to stay on topic here. The mage thing?, like teleporting rogues, or warriors causing ground tremors. Do you even have an understanding of what is being discussed here?

Wait, now were discussing communism? Do you suffer from Schizophrenia? The only thing that you said that makes sense so far is that time/money are the contributing factors to what gets put into the game. Are you even aware that you post vindicate what I believe to be the more plausible reason that Hawke is Human because of
limited time/resources?  

Wow that must have hit a nerve. 2 replies and you are already trying to use a condescending style. You would have a great career in politics, you just quotet my last post, ignored it completely and went on a rant that you have been saying for the last 10 pages like a broken record. Oh and cutting the quote out so no one will notice that you are not actually answering anything, priceless.

There isn't a thing called rogue origins or warrior origins in DA:O so why would there be in DA2? There is on the other hand a well written story about a human who becomes a legend. Could that have been the same for and elf? Yes it could have been but the story would have to be rewritten. In a same way as the story could have been about a mabari who rises to be the champion of Kirkwall, if Bioware would have wanted it that way.

By all means yes give me examples of a game in which race has real meaning full effects, not some useless monologue lines. DA:O has episodes in the beginning of the game (called "origins") that have no real effect on the main plot (fan fict doesn't count for any sane person). Effects that make you really notice that things are different, not the ones imagined in your head by you while wearing a leather bra and pretending to be an elf, no real effects that the game world and plot really changes because of your race.

As for the manor part of the game, if it's so easy to buy a manor why the hell do all the elves live in the alianage? And saying that the PC is special so he can do it but no one else could not is a sad way to have a power trip. The fact is Kirkwall is a city of rasism. Think of it like apartheit. Humans won't allow elf or dwarf just march up and buy a manor. Besides the manor belongs still to the Amels, your uncle only lost the papers. So buying the manor back does recuire that you have an Amel bloodline.

As for the qunari, Hawke is summoned because he has made and impression on the Arishok. An elf/dwarf could make and impression yes but Arishok wouldn't call him to resolve the problem with humans. Hawke must be humam because that way Arishok  changes his views on humans, the change doesn't last but still.

And last about cutting useless resourses: BW knew they were on a tight timeline with DA2 they had the option of cutting content and focusing making the remaining part good or just make a complete mess of the game (like KOTOR 2 by Obsidian was). Now they have data that shows most of the players played a human character in origins and since they did only one race they chose human. So extra races were considered useless resourses and were cut. And seeing how they are a moot point even in DA:O it was a good choice.

[Merced652]

One reason:

Cinematics. You know how much extra work they would've had to do to change camera angles and entire scenes to fit the differing heights of dwarfs and elves?

[Kangasniemi]

[quote]Drasanil wrote...

[quote]Kangasniemi wrote...

Without Hawke Anders never leaves the clinic or is killed by templars and no one notices.[/quote]
 
Anders never leaves the clinic, no one notices not even the templars as the refugees protect him, justice eventually takes over, he blows up the chantry
[/quote]

Without Hawke Anders remains the emo kid he is and Justice never takes over.  With Hawke Anders sees more of the suffering of mages and becomes more and more angry and eventualy does what he does. Anders doesn't start the war though. Anders only makes it so that a peacefull solution in any way becomes impossible.

[quote]

[quote]Without Hawke a certain artifact is never found and a certain character never goes ape sh*t crazy on everyone.[/quote]

Clearly you just ignored what I wrote. Meredith was already going apesh*t, the artifact is just a plot device to make it seem like you did something and justify the ridiculous boss fight with er, she would have gone apesh*t with out it. 
[/quote]

Meredith isn't crazy at the start. Ruthless in her views yes and runs a thight ship but she is not crazy. Her crazy streak starts when she buys a certain object. And that object would have never been found without Hawke.

[quote]
[quote]Without Hawke the qunari kill all the nobles and the king in Kirkwall and most likely the better part of the citizens thus destroying the city.[/quote]

With out Hawke the guard, army and mages would have eventually retaken the thing, the viscount dies despite Hawke, the nobles would have pretended to convert to save their hides (you know like normal people would) and nothing much would have changed. Some other mook would have been declared champion.
[/quote]

Yes the qunari would have died eventualy, but not before they would have killed the ruling class of Kirkwall. It's quite clear that qunaris don't like pretenders so pretending to convert would not have worked. So untold ammount of civilians dead, the whole ruling class dead and untold ammount of city guard dead. Could the city survive that, unlikely and if it did it would not have been the same Kirkwall that it was.

[quote]

[quote]So Hawke is quite clearly the most important character in the story.[/quote]

No, Isabella, Anders, Meredith and Orsino all share that title... mind you that's because they carried the largest sack of idiot balls, but any single one of them had more impact on the story than Hawke.

[/quote]

Isabella, Anders and co are important persons for the story but without Hawke they are just individuals who won't accomplice the things they do with Hawke.

[quote]
Skyrim looks great, but judging from the previous games by Bethesda there won't be a plot in the game. Bethesda can't write a decent plot if their lives depended on it. The open world roaming system is fun but if you want anything that resembles a plot in a game you better look somewhere else. And Bethesdas system of publish a beta and let players mod it so it's playable isn't really a good policy. I mean you must be the worlds biggest masochist if you play any of Bethesdas games without mods. So Bethesda does cut a whole hell of a lot corners in their games. And FYI, Bethesda is one of the publishers whose products sell millions of copies no matter they make just like CoD.
[/quote]

Bethesda can do good plots when they want to and the new NPCs mechanics for Skyrim make it look like they've definitely put some effort in upping their game.

Oblivion had a **** plot. Morrowind on the other had many good plots and was quite fun, I still play the later from time to time... the former not so much. But yes mods make things even better, same with Bioware games, the story's often great but you still need mods to flesh things out further. NWN had the lifespan it did because of the mod community, DAO is starting to develop extended quests and such.... DAII far less likely given the toolset seems to be a no go this time around. [/quote]

I am wating for Skyrim also, though my computer won't be able to run it most likely. Still looks great and sounds interesting. And I hope BW releases toolset for DA2. Although 95% of mods are crap the 5% more than make up for it.

[Serpieri Nei]

Kangasniemi wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Kangasniemi wrote...

/snip

Did you miss the part where race, class and even your sex are mentioned? Interesting, you do understand that fabrication can be seen as symptom of schizophrenia. If I were you I’d be careful what words I throw around. The only thing that is moot is that Origins allows you play different races that have subtle and unique gameplay experiences unlike a Warrior Hawke, Rogue Hawke, and especially a Mage Hawke. Making Multiple Races is a waste of time of money, care to provide an example? Would you like me point out a few games where you’re wrong? I’ll give you a hint, one of them has the same name of the game were talking about.

It’s clear that not only are you taking things out of context but your also suffering from reading comprehension which is addling your ability to have a discussion. You are aware that the origin quests are unique to each race and are not accessible by the others. So when are you going to Origin forums to discuss the quest givers, don’t tell me you opened your mouth and had intention to back it up. The point that I made is that the story and plot does not reference race, or class. And the game itself provides ample proof that one did not need to be human to purchase a manor and so on, How an Apostate is ignored and more. I find it curious that you did not challenge any of those points, was it because you’re incapable of it? Or do you want to discuss if a Quanari can be introduced into Origins?

The same can be said of classes, were not discussing combat mechanics here.  Due try to stay on topic here. The mage thing?, like teleporting rogues, or warriors causing ground tremors. Do you even have an understanding of what is being discussed here?

Wait, now were discussing communism? Do you suffer from Schizophrenia? The only thing that you said that makes sense so far is that time/money are the contributing factors to what gets put into the game. Are you even aware that you post vindicate what I believe to be the more plausible reason that Hawke is Human because of
limited time/resources?  

Wow that must have hit a nerve. 2 replies and you are already trying to use a condescending style. You would have a great career in politics, you just quotet my last post, ignored it completely and went on a rant that you have been saying for the last 10 pages like a broken record. Oh and cutting the quote out so no one will notice that you are not actually answering anything, priceless.

There isn't a thing called rogue origins or warrior origins in DA:O so why would there be in DA2? There is on the other hand a well written story about a human who becomes a legend. Could that have been the same for and elf? Yes it could have been but the story would have to be rewritten. In a same way as the story could have been about a mabari who rises to be the champion of Kirkwall, if Bioware would have wanted it that way.

By all means yes give me examples of a game in which race has real meaning full effects, not some useless monologue lines. DA:O has episodes in the beginning of the game (called "origins") that have no real effect on the main plot (fan fict doesn't count for any sane person). Effects that make you really notice that things are different, not the ones imagined in your head by you while wearing a leather bra and pretending to be an elf, no real effects that the game world and plot really changes because of your race.

As for the manor part of the game, if it's so easy to buy a manor why the hell do all the elves live in the alianage? And saying that the PC is special so he can do it but no one else could not is a sad way to have a power trip. The fact is Kirkwall is a city of rasism. Think of it like apartheit. Humans won't allow elf or dwarf just march up and buy a manor. Besides the manor belongs still to the Amels, your uncle only lost the papers. So buying the manor back does recuire that you have an Amel bloodline.

As for the qunari, Hawke is summoned because he has made and impression on the Arishok. An elf/dwarf could make and impression yes but Arishok wouldn't call him to resolve the problem with humans. Hawke must be humam because that way Arishok  changes his views on humans, the change doesn't last but still.

And last about cutting useless resourses: BW knew they were on a tight timeline with DA2 they had the option of cutting content and focusing making the remaining part good or just make a complete mess of the game (like KOTOR 2 by Obsidian was). Now they have data that shows most of the players played a human character in origins and since they did only one race they chose human. So extra races were considered useless resourses and were cut. And seeing how they are a moot point even in DA:O it was a good choice.

Feigning injury now, well of course you bring up politics now. It was you that brought up communism, and now you’re ranting. Why is so familiar? Oh yes, you don't have a leg to stand on. That's what happens when you don't do research, and keep a closed mind. Is this the part where you try to derail the topic here? Wow, cutting quotes am I. You are aware of pyramid quoting right? Probably not, so let me explain it for you when a reply becomes too large because of what follows it becomes very cumbersome. Feel free to PM a Mod on it, I'm sure they
educate you. 

No rewrites would be necessary because the story and the game doesn't reference it. Let me guess, this is where the brokenrecord comes in. A shame that you can't disprove but continue to challenge the premise. 

Are you still taking things out of context or just have trouble comprehending? Once again for you, Origins provides subtle and unique experiences throughout the story based on your race. Several examples have been citied and most people are capable of taking information through a repetition. However, when one does not comprehend what is written or takes it out context that individual is unable to deviate from it without admitting an error. And tends to try to change subject or avoid the topic. Sounds Familiar, you should try a new tactic. The funny part is that you once again validated my argument, yet you’re not even aware of it.

If it's so easy to buy a manor why the hell do humans live in lowtown, darktown? Let me guess, that never crossed your mind? Could it be the same reason why my city elf has title, land, and my uncle is now a Bann? This has already been discussed and we all know where the funds came from for the manor. Wow, you did it again. You validated my argument. So not just the PC is capable of going out and making a fortune. Your making this
way too easy.

You are aware the Arishok treats all races equally? He would ask the one who proved his worth to him regardless of what race he is. Again this has already been discussed.

You are going to show us this data right? Or are you going to pull a number out of you know where? Or is this another argument your unable to back up. Surprise, Surprise

Happy, I didn't snip - now you get to see the problem with pyramid quoting.

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 18 mai 2011 - 01:04 .

[TJSolo]

Yes the qunari would have died eventualy, but not before they would have killed the ruling class of Kirkwall. It's quite clear that qunaris don't like pretenders so pretending to convert would not have worked. So untold ammount of civilians dead, the whole ruling class dead and untold ammount of city guard dead. Could the city survive that, unlikely and if it did it would not have been the same Kirkwall that it was.

You say the Qunari would have been dead anyway, so any civilian/military casualties would have been fine since Kirkwall won the war. It is not about being the 'same' but the tale of Kirkwall would have progressed 'similarly' in respect to the Qunari conflict without Hawke.

Isabella, Anders and co are important persons for the story but without Hawke they are just individuals who won't accomplice the things they do with Hawke.

You do know that you can skip getting Isabella and all that means is that Hawke would a little more clueless when Isabella's plot flags happen.
The player needs to recruit Anders to reach the Deep Roads but once the player gets the maps Anders can sit in the clinic the rest of the game and still do his part in the story without the player doing those missions.

[Zem_]

Serpieri Nei wrote...
You should really stop being selective in your reading. Origins provided subtle and unique
experiences throughout the story.

I am hardly being selective as that is about the tenth time you have repeated that statement as if truth by repeated assertion was some kind of proof.  What's funny is that this will be about the third time I've AGREED with the statement.  The differences are "subtle" ONLY.  They are all peripheral to the main story. 

From a gameplay standpoint there is significance, the story does affect the way you play. People on these forums have stated also it in various forums in DA2. How they played their elf different from the human or how choices they made differed as an elf because the way the story unfolded. Unless, you mean gameplay as how combat is resolved, did it change how my fireballs worked, or my bow should have a +2 because I am elf. To those that want to see things like that, just remember this isn’t D&D. Now, if you didn’t care for either of the stories or the subtle or unique events, others did.

For someone telling me I don't read you sure make up a lot of arguments I never stated.  I've never said there are NO differences.  I have only said they are not significant differences.  "Seasoning" is the word I think I used.  We obviously have different definitions of "significant" since you then follow up with this...

I suggest you watch the video, regarding the Dwarf Noble, not only did he have the means to clear his name. He did.

Some dialogue at the end of the game?  Yes, I am aware there is epilogue material that attempts to tie up loose ends.  It does not change the fact that the game is substantially the same no matter which origin you play.  The same in the sense that you have the same list of quests to perform and the same ability, regardless of origin, to make whatever choice you want.  That you can find different motivation in different races is true, but it doesn't mean the game is actually different because of the origin you chose.  You are not given choices available ONLY to a dwarf or an elf or a human during the course of the game.  Yeah, they threw in some epilogue differences because it was the end of the game and didn't really affect anything past that point.  Again, "subtle".  Did being a mage from the circle offer me any way to complete the circle tower quest which was not available to a human warrior or elf rogue?  Nope.

A stock character would not differ from another stock character in Origins, which has already been proven wrong since each origin has subtle and unique differences. In DA2, a Warrior Hawke, a Rogue Hawke, a Mage Hawke is as you say a stock character. Nothing differentiates them. It’s clear that DA2 is of lower quality.

Wow you're really having at it with that straw man.  Can I help?   I never said one stock character in origins does not differ from another stock character in origins.  Obviously their background stories are different to begin with.  They have different intros to play.  There is flavoring to various dialogues in the game.  Epilogue differences.  As you have said and as I have repeatedly agreed... "subtle" differences.  But only that.

I wasn't even arguing the same point you were when you first replied to me a page or so ago.  There was another thread going which Mr Woo closed on us and sent us here.  Therein it was stated that Hawke is a stock character whereas the Warden is not.   I argued that the Warden, once you choose an origin, is as stock a character as is Hawke.  Stock as in pre-defined by Bioware.  If you can roleplay as a Cousland or an Aeducan, you should be able to roleplay as a Hawke.  And if not, it isn't because there is only one origin in DA2.  It's because DA2 is an inferior game.  The comparison is not apples to apples.   You can pretend DAO only had one choice of origin.  Pick one.  And compare that to DA2.   DA2 still comes up short.  DAO is just more game even if all you ever looked at was ONE of the origins. 

I’m aware you said “Odds are good”. I can also say the opposite but I won’t because I prefer to have data or examples I can use to back up my points. People have different reasons why they chose to play a certain class or race, and none of those reasons are wrong.

When did I ever say they were "wrong"?  I said that I thought odds were good humans were the most popular choice.  Actually I said human noble, but to be honest I'll have to concede it could just as easily be human mage.  In any case, in lieu of data how about a logical reason?  If elves were, in fact, the more popular choice in Origins then why would Bioware, who presumably HAS that data and doesn't have to guess, make Hawke a human and not an elf?  The story is theirs to make up.  And if they are only going to make up one story for DA2 it could easily have been an elf.

So in the trade off, we got a placeholder called Hawke, a poorly executed frame narrative, recycled content, and several gameplay elements removed or marginalized. What did we get in return?

No, this was not the trade off.  You are trying to prove the point about single origin vs. multiple origin and you're comparing a game that was what... five years in development against this rushed out money grab of a game?  Sorry, the argument does not fly.  We did not get all of these things you criticize about DA2 because Hawke is human.  We got them because DA2 was just that shoddy an effort all around.  Had they tried to throw in multiple origins it would have been an even bigger disaster.  However, had they put as much effort into DA2's single origin Hawke as they did into making DAO, we'd be having a very different argument.  DA2 is not a case against single origin games.  It is a case against trying to cut corners.

I wasn’t referring to DA2 on what could have been carried over from origins since Bioware decided to have the game take place Kirkwall, so a player is unable to see those choices/boons come to fruition, and most likely in DA3 it will be the same.

We can armchair dev all we want about what COULD have carried forward.  Just because it is stored in a savefile however means very little.  It is the cost of carrying forward a choice and making it consequential which prevents that.  It's why you're more likely to get a note or a cameo appearance by a character that has no effect whatsoever on the main plot of the game instead of a real story branch because of some past decision you made or what origin you picked in DAO.

[Serpieri Nei]

Zem_ wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...
You should really stop being selective in your reading. Origins provided subtle and unique
experiences throughout the story.

I am hardly being selective as that is about the tenth time you have repeated that statement as if truth by repeated assertion was some kind of proof.  What's funny is that this will be about the third time I've AGREED with the statement.  The differences are "subtle" ONLY.  They are all peripheral to the main story. 

From a gameplay standpoint there is significance, the story does affect the way you play. People on these forums have stated also it in various forums in DA2. How they played their elf different from the human or how choices they made differed as an elf because the way the story unfolded. Unless, you mean gameplay as how combat is resolved, did it change how my fireballs worked, or my bow should have a +2 because I am elf. To those that want to see things like that, just remember this isn’t D&D. Now, if you didn’t care for either of the stories or the subtle or unique events, others did.

For someone telling me I don't read you sure make up a lot of arguments I never stated.  I've never said there are NO differences.  I have only said they are not significant differences.  "Seasoning" is the word I think I used.  We obviously have different definitions of "significant" since you then follow up with this...

I suggest you watch the video, regarding the Dwarf Noble, not only did he have the means to clear his name. He did.

Some dialogue at the end of the game?  Yes, I am aware there is epilogue material that attempts to tie up loose ends.  It does not change the fact that the game is substantially the same no matter which origin you play.  The same in the sense that you have the same list of quests to perform and the same ability, regardless of origin, to make whatever choice you want.  That you can find different motivation in different races is true, but it doesn't mean the game is actually different because of the origin you chose.  You are not given choices available ONLY to a dwarf or an elf or a human during the course of the game.  Yeah, they threw in some epilogue differences because it was the end of the game and didn't really affect anything past that point.  Again, "subtle".  Did being a mage from the circle offer me any way to complete the circle tower quest which was not available to a human warrior or elf rogue?  Nope.

A stock character would not differ from another stock character in Origins, which has already been proven wrong since each origin has subtle and unique differences. In DA2, a Warrior Hawke, a Rogue Hawke, a Mage Hawke is as you say a stock character. Nothing differentiates them. It’s clear that DA2 is of lower quality.

Wow you're really having at it with that straw man.  Can I help?   I never said one stock character in origins does not differ from another stock character in origins.  Obviously their background stories are different to begin with.  They have different intros to play.  There is flavoring to various dialogues in the game.  Epilogue differences.  As you have said and as I have repeatedly agreed... "subtle" differences.  But only that.

I wasn't even arguing the same point you were when you first replied to me a page or so ago.  There was another thread going which Mr Woo closed on us and sent us here.  Therein it was stated that Hawke is a stock character whereas the Warden is not.   I argued that the Warden, once you choose an origin, is as stock a character as is Hawke.  Stock as in pre-defined by Bioware.  If you can roleplay as a Cousland or an Aeducan, you should be able to roleplay as a Hawke.  And if not, it isn't because there is only one origin in DA2.  It's because DA2 is an inferior game.  The comparison is not apples to apples.   You can pretend DAO only had one choice of origin.  Pick one.  And compare that to DA2.   DA2 still comes up short.  DAO is just more game even if all you ever looked at was ONE of the origins. 

I’m aware you said “Odds are good”. I can also say the opposite but I won’t because I prefer to have data or examples I can use to back up my points. People have different reasons why they chose to play a certain class or race, and none of those reasons are wrong.

When did I ever say they were "wrong"?  I said that I thought odds were good humans were the most popular choice.  Actually I said human noble, but to be honest I'll have to concede it could just as easily be human mage.  In any case, in lieu of data how about a logical reason?  If elves were, in fact, the more popular choice in Origins then why would Bioware, who presumably HAS that data and doesn't have to guess, make Hawke a human and not an elf?  The story is theirs to make up.  And if they are only going to make up one story for DA2 it could easily have been an elf.

So in the trade off, we got a placeholder called Hawke, a poorly executed frame narrative, recycled content, and several gameplay elements removed or marginalized. What did we get in return?

No, this was not the trade off.  You are trying to prove the point about single origin vs. multiple origin and you're comparing a game that was what... five years in development against this rushed out money grab of a game?  Sorry, the argument does not fly.  We did not get all of these things you criticize about DA2 because Hawke is human.  We got them because DA2 was just that shoddy an effort all around.  Had they tried to throw in multiple origins it would have been an even bigger disaster.  However, had they put as much effort into DA2's single origin Hawke as they did into making DAO, we'd be having a very different argument.  DA2 is not a case against single origin games.  It is a case against trying to cut corners.

I wasn’t referring to DA2 on what could have been carried over from origins since Bioware decided to have the game take place Kirkwall, so a player is unable to see those choices/boons come to fruition, and most likely in DA3 it will be the same.

We can armchair dev all we want about what COULD have carried forward.  Just because it is stored in a savefile however means very little.  It is the cost of carrying forward a choice and making it consequential which prevents that.  It's why you're more likely to get a note or a cameo appearance by a character that has no effect whatsoever on the main plot of the game instead of a real story branch because of some past decision you made or what origin you picked in DAO.

The origin is part of the story and the reason why you became a warden. Which is also brought up during the sacred ashes quest. You challenged the premise that the game didn't have subtle and unique experiences. It's seems that you didn's understand my use of subtle and unique which I provided examples of both. As you say what you and I consider significant is different. Something that is unique to an Origin story is significant. Here is one such event.



You may want to look up the gameplay videos on the net for the dwarf and see what events took place for that to concur. And as discussed previously the events makes each playthrough different. This is one method to make a game more replayable by offering something that has not been experienced. It's clear you haven’t experienced the majority of events or options available to the different races. Does it change how you kill the Archdemon at the end, no but that was never part of my premise to begin with.
 
The most plausible reason why Hawke is human is limited time/resources but some believe it's the story where many supporting points have been brought up to disprove it. Even the story suffers from this, this is a shining example where a single protagonist does not create a better experience.

The only point I have been discussing is that the story is not the reason why hawke is human. Dragon age was longer in development because it was created from scratch, much of elements in DA2 were taken from Origins and even mass effect. If they had put the time and effort into Hawke, then it wouldn't be so easy to disprove the story but it's clear they didn't and the game suffers from it.

And that is why have a sequel that in many ways isn't. 

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 18 mai 2011 - 02:38 .

[infernalserpent]

Merced652 wrote...

One reason:

Cinematics. You know how much extra work they would've had to do to change camera angles and entire scenes to fit the differing heights of dwarfs and elves?

Yeah. That's on the list, to be sure: cinematics, art, animation, writing/editing, VO, UI, localization, and testing all of the above. Making a game is complex as heck and more expensive (in people, time, and actual money) than that. I don't blame BioWare at all for focusing this game's story on a human character, especially if they did have telemetry to suggest that DAO players preferred that race.

[SilentK]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

SilentK wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

SilentK wrote...

I see that plenty of people have said it all ready but how I see it. Dwarves don't have magic and elves are 2:nd class people so they could not have a history of a noble family. My female elf warden that romanced king Alistair would have been mighty miffed if she could have been a noble in Kirkwall but not in Ferelden. Combine it and the Hawke that bioware wants to present is human.

Just how I see it. Have fun on the forum =)

As it has been said many times nothing in any of the main quests requires you to have magic in your blood or have nobility. Your sister or brother can either be a grey warden or even join the templars/mages - so once again I have proven that a dwarf or elven brother/sister can still leave at the end of act 1.

Quite right, before you start a q there is no check wheter or not your Hawke has any magical abilites. But you have to be Hawke. No matter what class you play, either your Hawke is a mage or your sister is a mage.

Restriction nr 1. One of the two remaining siblings will have magical abilities. Either Hawke or Bethany. Probably so that there will always be some personal connection to the templar-mage-situation. This excludes dwarves. If it wasn't for that limitation that there will always be a sibling with magic Hawke could probably have been a dwarf, but they didn't set up the game that way. There is no way in the game to not have either Hawke or Bethany as a mage.

Restriction nr 2. Hawke comes from a historical noble line in Kirkwall. A noble familyline that with magic. And it is nobility, it's a matter of a familyline and not of a fine house. You can be a dirt-poor noble living in a dump, but buying a fine house doesn't make one a noble. This excludes elves. Elves apparently belong in the alienage, an elf will not come from a noble family with the occasional mage.

It's background for the story that they have given. I don't think it's a matter of proving that it is necessary for every main q. Two siblings from a noble line, one of them has magic. This cannot be changed in the game so it is given. No matter what the main q's are.

All races can join the gray wardens, that is no problem. But not all races can be noble line with magic in the nice city of Kirkwall.

I guess you choose to see it differently. They want to present this version of Hawke. That is set. Or that's how I see it.

None of the main, companion, or side quests require Hawke to a mage or even to have a sister who is. This has already been proven multiple times, it's left to you to disprove it since that is your stance. Personal connection is not required to pick a side between the templars and mages, you are the Champion of Kirkwall which comes with the responsibility of protecting the city from threats which includes internal ones.

Do you know why Hawke is called Hawke and not Amell, even after acquiring their home? It's because he did not restore the Amell family line, he simply purchased the house his mother grow up in. When he was given the title of champion, Hawke's social status was elevetad and not the Amell's. 

If your not able to prove that an Elf is restricted from garnering wealth or owning property, your argument has no weight behind it. Do you know what they call a human alienage? Slums, Darktown, the poor quarter of the city, and so on.

Do you know what happens to nobles that have magic in the blood? Just ask Comtesse De Launcet? It's clear that you need more then money and status to avoid the templars. 

Your restrictions are easily circumvented. And Hawke has no other versions he's nothing more then a placeholder, if only he was fleshed out and then it wouldn't be so easy to disprove all this.

I guess we just see it very very differently          I don't agree at all. There will always be one of the siblings that are a mage. They just set the game that way, either your Hawke is a mage or you have Bethany with you. Have you played the game with a mage Hawke together with Bethany? Or a non-mage Hawke and Carver? It doesn't have to be this way for the story, just how they set the game. The story isn't the limitation, it's the game mechanic. You or your surviving sibling will be a mage. So that's what I use for a base. I get a feeling that we are writing past eachother. I don't think that you or your sibling have to be a mage in order for a main q to start. But they set it so that when you start a new char, if you are a mage, you get Carver. And this is just I guess of mine, but I believe that they wanted there to be a personal connection, that your family is tied to magic and then it turned out this way. Hawke or Bethany is a mage. And that connection works, for me at least, find it so difficult to made sis sad  

And yes, a person who isn't noble can indeed have a house. But having a nice house isn't what makes one noble. If you are poor you live in the slums, even if you come from a noble line.  Hmm... I haven't seen that many rich elves with a mansion, have you? They wanted an old line of nobility, that's not a elven family. 

And jupp, there is no certanity that coming from a noble background, living in mansion will be enough to keep you from the templars. Bethany also talks about it. Best thing to do is just to hide that ability as best as you can.

They have the rights to the house because they come from a noble line. It was the estate of the Amell family, an old noble line. And Leandra talks quite a bit about them being nobility in the beginning when you live with Gamlen.

Hmmm.... I gess we just see it differently.

[Drachasor]

SilentK wrote...
I guess we just see it very very differently          I don't agree at all. There will always be one of the siblings that are a mage. They just set the game that way, either your Hawke is a mage or you have Bethany with you. Have you played the game with a mage Hawke together with Bethany? Or a non-mage Hawke and Carver? It doesn't have to be this way for the story, just how they set the game. The story isn't the limitation, it's the game mechanic. You or your surviving sibling will be a mage. So that's what I use for a base. I get a feeling that we are writing past eachother. I don't think that you or your sibling have to be a mage in order for a main q to start. But they set it so that when you start a new char, if you are a mage, you get Carver. And this is just I guess of mine, but I believe that they wanted there to be a personal connection, that your family is tied to magic and then it turned out this way. Hawke or Bethany is a mage. And that connection works, for me at least, find it so difficult to made sis sad  

Hardly any work to given anyone a mage in their party if they felt a mage was REALLY necessary.  Elves...do the same thing they did for humans.  Dwarves?  They are allowed to have friends.  There's no reason you couldn't escape with your best friend, who happens to be a mage (or any number of other options).  In the long run, this would actually change VERY little dialogue.

SilentK wrote...
And yes, a person who isn't noble can indeed have a house. But having a nice house isn't what makes one noble. If you are poor you live in the slums, even if you come from a noble line.  Hmm... I haven't seen that many rich elves with a mansion, have you? They wanted an old line of nobility, that's not a elven family. 

Being a noble has NOTHING to do with anyone in the game.  Heck, there's no evidence you are a noble.  You just have a lot of money and influence (your mom doesn't get you your estate back, you have to buy it all back, and it is in your name, not your family's noble name).

You don't see rich Elves with mansions because rich elves are almost unheard if Thedas.  If one shows up though, they could certainly buy an expansive house.  Again, the whole "noble" line thing doesn't play any significant story role, anymore than being a noble human in the first game was important.

SilentK wrote...
They have the rights to the house because they come from a noble line. It was the estate of the Amell family, an old noble line. And Leandra talks quite a bit about them being nobility in the beginning when you live with Gamlen.

They get the house because you BUY it with your fabulous wealth.  It is NOT because of any noble line.  This is made very clear in Act 2.  You are not nobility, just someone who is highly influencial.

[SilentK]

Gahh... feel like I will say the same thing all over again. This is what they wanted to do, a family. Not friends. A family with magic. Who happens to have a noble background. They could have changed things but then it wouldn't have been the family, if you have friends with that ability. Or you could have skipped the noble part and just bought a house without prior attachment. But this is how they wanted it to be. A family, they wanted to explore the family theme. A family with magic and noble line. There is evidence that you come from a noble line. Leandra mentions it plenty of times, and Gamlen. The letter in the dungons speaking of Revkas disgrace when having a child with magic.

I keep saying the same thing over and over =) I see it diffrently I guess. I guess well just have to keep disagreeing on this. Have fun in this tread and have fun with the game.

Cheers =)

[Drachasor]

SilentK wrote...

Gahh... feel like I will say the same thing all over again. This is what they wanted to do, a family. Not friends. A family with magic. Who happens to have a noble background. They could have changed things but then it wouldn't have been the family, if you have friends with that ability. Or you could have skipped the noble part and just bought a house without prior attachment. But this is how they wanted it to be. A family, they wanted to explore the family theme. A family with magic and noble line. There is evidence that you come from a noble line. Leandra mentions it plenty of times, and Gamlen. The letter in the dungons speaking of Revkas disgrace when having a child with magic.

I keep saying the same thing over and over =) I see it diffrently I guess. I guess well just have to keep disagreeing on this. Have fun in this tread and have fun with the game.

Cheers =)

Well, you could use the "this is what they wanted to do" argument to justify ANY mechanic or story decision.  That doesn't make it the best idea or even a good idea.

Yes of course Hawke comes from a noble line, but this doesn't actually have much to do with the story.  They get into the city without using the noble line.  They get a better house without using the noble line.  Etc, etc, etc.  It's not remotely relevant to the main plot and only plays a role in a couple quests.  It really is a tiny detail when you look at the effects on the game.

As for family, I already provided ways though could have family with a Dwarf.  The lyrium trade is a huge part of what keeps the Templars going  and under control of the Chantry (and mages need it for spells).  A brother or other family involved in that would add a lot to the story and give a very interesting perspective (and of course dwarves could potentially become Templars).  I only pointed out there were was to have a dwarf strongly connected to a mage if that was what was wanted (heck, you could even have adoption).  Elves of course are easy to do.

All you are saying over and over is "Bioware did this!", but that alone is not really an argument about whether it was good or bad that Bioware did that.  The fact is the forced humanity of the main character is far from necessary even if they want to keep the main plot points and themes of the game, because Hawke's unique origin just doesn't add that much.