465 réponses à ce sujet

[hoorayforicecream]

Lumikki wrote...

Aveline has no affect Hawke's race, I agree.

How ever, Dwarf has no magic abilities and Hawkes family is noble. That does create few problems. Not impossible to solve, but difficult. Also elf mages aren't apostates.

Been noble require been human or dwarf.
Magic requires been human or elf.

Okey few assumptions.

Both parens are same race?
 - Dwarf is out, because no magic in family line.
 - Human is possible
 - Elf's, can't be noble

Different race parents?
 - Dwarf noble + human mage -> (magic?)
 - Dwarf noble  + elf mage -> (magic?)
 - Human noble mage + Dwarf -> (magic?)
 - Human noble + Elf mage

Human + Elf parent = human child. Being an elf requires two elven parents.

[mesmerizedish]

And half-dwarves are hella rare.

[bleetman]

Filament wrote...

Beyond that, you have noble blood... big whoop, your uncle sold your nobility, that doesn't mean much anymore.

What, to people who earned their status by birthright? Yes. Yes it does. Just because it's not everything doesn't make it nothing.

Modifié par bleetman, 09 mai 2011 - 10:45 .

[Serpieri Nei]

Lumikki wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

A couple of key plot points would have had to deviate, or at least be significantly rewritten:

1. Hawke's estate wouldn't work for an elf. Dwarf might be ok, but not elves
2. Family storyline wouldn't work (Bethany as an apostate, All That Remains, etc.). There are plenty of mages in kirkwall, but none of them are apostates that had been living their all their lives and not been picked up by the templars.
3. Where would Aveline come from?

Other stuff that would be problematic:

1. All of Hawke's wearable armors would need male and female elf and dwarf models and textures created.
2. All of Hawke's VO would need to be re-recorded with male and female elf and dwarf voices.

It isn't impossible, but you have to keep in mind that they had a limited development schedule for this.

1. Hawke's Estate - can be for a dwarf or an elf - Or have we forgotton about Varic's brother who bought an estate after betraying the party. It's not like they only accepted nobles in Hightown.

2. Family Storyline - can be applied to an elf - there are several examples of Elves not wanting to be part of the circle or were made part of the circle. Dwarves, would also work - with a few minor changes. Afterall, in Hightown they had dwarven statues. 

3. Aveline - would still be there if your character was an elf or dwarf. 

Aveline has no affect Hawke's race, I agree.

How ever, Dwarf has no magic abilities and Hawkes family is noble. That does create few problems. Not impossible to solve, but difficult. Also elf mages aren't apostates.

Been noble require been human or dwarf.
Magic requires been human or elf.

Okey few assumptions.

Both parens are same race?
 - Dwarf is out, because no magic in family line.
 - Human is possible
 - Elf's, can't be noble

Different race parents?
 - Dwarf noble + human mage -> (magic?)
 - Dwarf noble  + elf mage -> (magic?)
 - Human noble mage + Dwarf -> (magic?)
 - Human noble + Elf mage

Nobility is not required to own an estate - and Surface Dwarves have no ties to Nobility - any they did have was stripped from them.

Magic is also not required for one to choose who to side with. Mages or Templars. 

The Deep Roads expediton would still have happened if Hawke was an elf or a dwarf. The requirement was 50 gold not race.

[Maria Caliban]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

It's not impossible to do. It's just improbable.

I'd suggest that it is impossible.

The question is: Why did Hawke need to be a human?
The answer is: Because a non-human Hawke doesn't fit the story.

All the rebuttals people have offered have changed the story.

For example, in the story, Hawke or his/her sibling is a mage. This is done to give you at least one connection to apostates, and gathering funds in Act 1 is explicitly said to be to protect Hawke or Bethany from Templars.

That story element simply doesn't exist for a dwarf. Yes, you could create a different reason for gathering money and a different reason for fearing the Templars, but that can't be said to be the same story.

Elves mages can be Apostate or have you forgotten the events in DA2?

What does this have to do with what I said?

[mesmerizedish]

Filament wrote...

Isn't that what the writers wanted?

I don't think so, to be honest. We're not supposed to be able to change things. That's the nature of the story. We don't "shake things up." Hawke is a PoV character, nothing more.

I mean, of course her relationships with her friends are important to her, and DAII is as much about those stories as it is about the bigger picture. But Hawke's place in that bigger picture is as an obsever, not as an actor.

I think it does the game a disservice to say that it's "setting us up for DAIII," but that's really what's happening. Instead of going from the relative stability of Origins' ending straight into the middle of a continent-spanning war, we get to see exactly how things devolved from the former to the latter.

The thing is, if we're an elf or a dwarf, we no longer have that PoV. Our vantage point is something different. For the story they presented (and the story they wanted to present), only a human (one could argue, only Hawke) has the proper perspective.

[hoorayforicecream]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Nobility is not required to own an estate - and Surface Dwarves have no ties to Nobility - any they did have was stripped from them.

They are called the merchant princes (of which Varric is one), and they have strong ties to Orzammar. Varric's family is huge, and they have a large amount of influence. He may be a surface dwarf, but he's still part of the family.

If Hawke starts as a city dwarf, (s)he has no such influence. If Hawke starts as a Ferelden refugee, there's no chance of this happening.

Magic is also not required for one to choose who to side with. Mages or Templars.

But it is one of the major factors in both Bethany's and Leandra's stories.

Ultimately, if you do enough rewrites, you can make it fit. But what most of us are saying is that if you do those rewrites, it's no longer the same story as before, and runs a very big risk of being worse than before.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 09 mai 2011 - 11:01 .

[mesmerizedish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

It's not impossible to do. It's just improbable.

I'd suggest that it is impossible.

The question is: Why did Hawke need to be a human?
The answer is: Because a non-human Hawke doesn't fit the story.

All the rebuttals people have offered have changed the story.

For example, in the story, Hawke or his/her sibling is a mage. This is done to give you at least one connection to apostates, and gathering funds in Act 1 is explicitly said to be to protect Hawke or Bethany from Templars.

That story element simply doesn't exist for a dwarf. Yes, you could create a different reason for gathering money and a different reason for fearing the Templars, but that can't be said to be the same story.

Elves mages can be Apostate or have you forgotten the events in DA2?

What does this have to do with what I said?

You said that that plot doesn't work for a dwarf. Pointing out how it does work for an elf totally wrecks your position. It's Rhetoric 101.

[Maria Caliban]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

You said that that plot doesn't work for a dwarf. Pointing out how it does work for an elf totally wrecks your position. It's Rhetoric 101.

This statement is false!

dontthinkaboutitdontthinkaboutitdontthinkaboutit

[TEWR]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Because no one would see an elf achieve a high social status. Citizens would make sure of that.

And because Dwarves can't use magic.

This is a game detailing the Chantry-Mage-Templar inner civil war, where only a human best fits in. Any other race wouldn't work. All throughout the game you find evidence of the growing tension between the Chantry, Templars, and Mages.

Did you read that in a Codex that stated Elves are not allowed to own property or garner wealth?

Did you forget that humans see elves as second class citizens and treat them like they're less than nug ****? How many of Kirkwall's humans talk down upon the elves? A lot. There's a band of Templars led by a woman who says she doesn't care about "knife-ears".

[bleetman]

Filament wrote...

Not without the money to back it up it doesn't. That's why the so-called noble Amells live in squalor in Lowtown until you acquire said money. And with the money to back it up, it's not much of a stretch that someone without such a birthright could enter into nobility all the same. In fact, such a person would shake things up even more than Hawke does. Isn't that what the writers wanted?

To a point, but you alter the staus quo amongst the nobles with the triumphant return of the Amells, so to speak. And elf or dwarf moving into the estate would certainly attract attention - elves in particular - but not in anything like the same way. Hawke would more likely be a topic of scandal than admiration in those cases.

Money + heritage = Amell estate.
Money on it's own? Not so much. You could perhaps buy the building to live in, but not the associated prestige.

With regards to the bolded section: maybe, perhaps. I'm under the impression that noble families are established by ruling monarchy or similiar. But really. Elven or dwarven nobility within a human society? Never going to happen.

Modifié par bleetman, 09 mai 2011 - 11:04 .

[Serpieri Nei]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

It's not impossible to do. It's just improbable.

I'd suggest that it is impossible.

The question is: Why did Hawke need to be a human?
The answer is: Because a non-human Hawke doesn't fit the story.

All the rebuttals people have offered have changed the story.

For example, in the story, Hawke or his/her sibling is a mage. This is done to give you at least one connection to apostates, and gathering funds in Act 1 is explicitly said to be to protect Hawke or Bethany from Templars.

That story element simply doesn't exist for a dwarf. Yes, you could create a different reason for gathering money and a different reason for fearing the Templars, but that can't be said to be the same story.

Elves mages can be Apostate or have you forgotten the events in DA2?

What does this have to do with what I said?

"For example, in the story, Hawke or his/her sibling is a mage. This is done to give you at least one connection to apostates, and gathering funds in Act 1 is explicitly said to be to protect Hawke or Bethany from Templars."

Templars were only part of the problem - they still needed coin and status.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Night Prowler76 wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Because beyond the origin in DAO, there was nothing beyond flavor changes to the main plot anyways.

In that case, why not just make Hawke a male, there is no difference between the male and female stories in DA2.

Because you touch yourself at night.

[Serpieri Nei]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Because no one would see an elf achieve a high social status. Citizens would make sure of that.

And because Dwarves can't use magic.

This is a game detailing the Chantry-Mage-Templar inner civil war, where only a human best fits in. Any other race wouldn't work. All throughout the game you find evidence of the growing tension between the Chantry, Templars, and Mages.

Did you read that in a Codex that stated Elves are not allowed to own property or garner wealth?

Did you forget that humans see elves as second class citizens and treat them like they're less than nug ****? How many of Kirkwall's humans talk down upon the elves? A lot. There's a band of Templars led by a woman who says she doesn't care about "knife-ears".

You'd be suprised by what wealth can accomplish.

[Night Prowler76]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Night Prowler76 wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Because beyond the origin in DAO, there was nothing beyond flavor changes to the main plot anyways.

In that case, why not just make Hawke a male, there is no difference between the male and female stories in DA2.

Because you touch yourself at night.

Off topic, reported.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Night Prowler76 wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Night Prowler76 wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Because beyond the origin in DAO, there was nothing beyond flavor changes to the main plot anyways.

In that case, why not just make Hawke a male, there is no difference between the male and female stories in DA2.

Because you touch yourself at night.

Off topic, reported.

It was funny though.  :lol:

[TEWR]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Because no one would see an elf achieve a high social status. Citizens would make sure of that.

And because Dwarves can't use magic.

This is a game detailing the Chantry-Mage-Templar inner civil war, where only a human best fits in. Any other race wouldn't work. All throughout the game you find evidence of the growing tension between the Chantry, Templars, and Mages.

Did you read that in a Codex that stated Elves are not allowed to own property or garner wealth?

Did you forget that humans see elves as second class citizens and treat them like they're less than nug ****? How many of Kirkwall's humans talk down upon the elves? A lot. There's a band of Templars led by a woman who says she doesn't care about "knife-ears".

You'd be suprised by what wealth can accomplish.

Lia's father would disagree with you. For all his coin, no one listened to him because he was an elf.

[bleetman]

Filament wrote...

A known apostate mage noble in a Chantry loving templar-controlled society also seems pretty unlikely, but they made it.. well, "work."

Given the amount of complaining over that particular aspect of the plot, not really

[The Metalion]

Offering multiple choices of race requires too much effort.

Same reason they simplified the classes and reused environments and used waves and everything else.

They even simplified the genders to be bisexual.

Modifié par The Metalion, 09 mai 2011 - 11:19 .

[Serpieri Nei]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Because no one would see an elf achieve a high social status. Citizens would make sure of that.

And because Dwarves can't use magic.

This is a game detailing the Chantry-Mage-Templar inner civil war, where only a human best fits in. Any other race wouldn't work. All throughout the game you find evidence of the growing tension between the Chantry, Templars, and Mages.

Did you read that in a Codex that stated Elves are not allowed to own property or garner wealth?

Did you forget that humans see elves as second class citizens and treat them like they're less than nug ****? How many of Kirkwall's humans talk down upon the elves? A lot. There's a band of Templars led by a woman who says she doesn't care about "knife-ears".

You'd be suprised by what wealth can accomplish.

Lia's father would disagree with you. For all his coin, no one listened to him because he was an elf.

One gold is not what I would call being wealthy. Nor did his wardrobe support that he was.

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 09 mai 2011 - 11:19 .

[Night Prowler76]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Night Prowler76 wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Night Prowler76 wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Because beyond the origin in DAO, there was nothing beyond flavor changes to the main plot anyways.

In that case, why not just make Hawke a male, there is no difference between the male and female stories in DA2.

Because you touch yourself at night.

Off topic, reported.

It was funny though.  :lol:

Not particularly, a childish attempt at vulgar humour on your part.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Night Prowler76 wrote...

Not particularly, a childish attempt at vulgar humour on your part.

Off topic, reported.