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Why did Hawke need to be a human, exactly?


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#126
Serpieri Nei

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Did I say the nobility would fight Dwarves trying to buy an estate? NO.


But a dwarf cannot be a mage, as we are led to believe. Current Dwarven society cannot be a mage, and the main premise of this game was that either you or your sister are an apostate in Kirkwall. That you are thrust into an ongoing war between two factions that deal with the issue of magic and YOU know something about that. Dwarves don't, and elves wouldn't be allowed in Hightown. Without living in Hightown, you are very rarely granted an audience with the Viscount, who played a crucial role in Act 2. You only meet him once in act 1, and that's because you rescue his son.

Dwarves have a low fertility rate. I read that in one of the codexes, and it's why they stick to dwarven marriages only. They don't like mixed marriages. So they wouldn't be able to sire any elven blooded or human blooded kids with magical talents.

And I said Hawke would tell the nobles to sod off for getting their nickers in a bunch for Merrill moving in. That is NOT the same as telling them to sod off when they're fighting to keep an elf from living in Hightown when he/she is petitioning to reclaim/buy an estate. Merrill is moving in. Hawke is buying the estate.

There is a big difference between the two. Don't make them the same. It won't work.


You stated that the nobility would fight an elf, its plausible that they would do the same for a dwarf. And some people have stated that Hawke used his ties to his nobility which we know was not a requirement for gaining an estate in hightown since Bartrand was able to secure one. Hawke regardless of race has connections in the city, and with wealth comes the ability to sway opinions, and those that spoke to loud. Well, there are many methods of taken care of those issues as well. And there is nothing written that states an elf cannot acquire property or wealth. Which would of have been a much better rag to riches story with all that conflict.

Hawke does not require to be a mage or have sibling that is a mage to go on the expedition in Act I, nor did he have to be human to route the Quanari, nor did he have to be a mage or have a family member be a mage to get involved with the mage vs templar conflict. The audience with the viscount would still have taken place regardless of race because of the Impression Hawke had made on the Quanari and his new status that was afforded to him from the wealth he aquired.

What does fertility rate have to do with this? I wasn't the one talking about half-breeds.

#127
Sussurus

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Adoption... I mean "enchatment."

No Hawke could not be non human, and a none Hawke character was not going to happen.
Ipso facto the choice was made for us, everything was decided and settled.
I'm just suprised you were allowed to make Hawke anything other than a rogue tbh.

#128
TEWR

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Serpieri Nei wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Elves and Dwarves do work. Your words, Hawke would tell them to SOD off. And let's not forget that Bartrand had an estate in Hightown, and he was no noble just a wealthy entrepreneur. 


No, elves and dwarves do not work. They can work, but not without extensive rewrites.


Which brings us back to the more plausable reason why Hawke was made Human. Bioware did not want to spend the time/resources on creating the cut scenes, armor meshes, voice overs, and all the other elements needed for this to happen.


So because they didn't make the game to your liking, Bioware is lazy? Yea..... this is why I hate people.

#129
Serpieri Nei

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RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

No, elves and dwarves do not work. They can work, but not without extensive rewrites.


Plus... why would a dwarf or an elf leave their respective homes?  If they were in Lothering, they could just go underground or back to the Dalish or slums.

I think the whole sweep of the story works best for human.


Your forgetting that surface dwarves have already left their homes to live on the surface or were born on the surface and the city elves choose to live in cities instead of the woods. Very few have returned, I know of only one example in Origins and one only one in DA2. Anyways, the dwarves and elves of Lothering, or in the vicinity would have to escape the blight just like the humans putting them in the same situation.

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 10 mai 2011 - 12:26 .


#130
ChickenDownUnder

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Maria Caliban wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

It's not impossible to do. It's just improbable.

I'd suggest that it is impossible.

The question is: Why did Hawke need to be a human?
The answer is: Because a non-human Hawke doesn't fit the story.

All the rebuttals people have offered have changed the story.

For example, in the story, Hawke or his/her sibling is a mage. This is done to give you at least one connection to apostates, and gathering funds in Act 1 is explicitly said to be to protect Hawke or Bethany from Templars.

That story element simply doesn't exist for a dwarf. Yes, you could create a different reason for gathering money and a different reason for fearing the Templars, but that can't be said to be the same story.


Nope, no changes to the over-all plot needed.

A dwarf!Hawke's sibling would be lyrium addled instead of a mage, a surfacer dwarf family that worked in the mines near Lothering and fled the darkspawn to Kirkwall like human!Hawke does. Hawke's family had to move around constantly in the past because of the fear surfacers had that the sibling was possibly demon possessed. Family fears Templars because of one too many bad experiences with Templars willing to inform public of 'demon possesson' until bribes of lyrium are given.

Elf!Hawke is what would be harder, but not overly much.

In other words, it is very much possible to have included a dwarven or elven Hawke family origin that wouldn't break the game. Bioware just lacked the time and possibly money.

#131
MyKingdomCold

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if you were an elf, you would be neighbors with Merrill in the alienage or maybe stuck in Darktown. You could've been a dwarf but unless they changed the lore, you couldn't be a mage. Can you imagine the amount of people crying they couldn't play as a mage? Think of the crying people!

#132
Serpieri Nei

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Elves and Dwarves do work. Your words, Hawke would tell them to SOD off. And let's not forget that Bartrand had an estate in Hightown, and he was no noble just a wealthy entrepreneur. 


No, elves and dwarves do not work. They can work, but not without extensive rewrites.


Which brings us back to the more plausable reason why Hawke was made Human. Bioware did not want to spend the time/resources on creating the cut scenes, armor meshes, voice overs, and all the other elements needed for this to happen.


So because they didn't make the game to your liking, Bioware is lazy? Yea..... this is why I hate people.


This has nothing to do with my liking, it has to do with "Why did Hawke need to be a human, exactly?" And why do people use the term lazy to describe items that are missing from a video game? The game had a very short development cycle, and quite a few articles on the net about it being rushed.

#133
TEWR

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seriously....

what is so hard for people to grasp that Thedas will have some stories that revolve around a character who is from one set race?

I doubt anyone would be throwing a tantrum if the main character was just a Dwarf. Or an Elf. Or a Kossith. Or a Fex. Well, the last two everyone would definitely enjoy.

By saying "Bioware didn't bother...." you're implying that they did it out of laziness.

#134
Stippling

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I doubt anyone would be throwing a tantrum if the main character was just a Dwarf. Or an Elf. Or a Kossith. Or a Fex. Well, the last two everyone would definitely enjoy.


Although I agree with your point, I disagree with this. I think there would be more uproar if Hawke wasn't a Human. The term "laziness" would be replaced with "linear storytelling." People identify with humans more, being forced to be something your not is not a safe choice.

Modifié par Stippling, 10 mai 2011 - 12:42 .


#135
Guest_Puddi III_*

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I wouldn't mind being a fex just to find out what the fex a fex is.

#136
Wintermist

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I dunno, I think he was born human and just went on from there. :P

#137
Serpieri Nei

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Lumikki wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Nobility is not required to own an estate - and Surface Dwarves have no ties to Nobility - any they did have was stripped from them.

Magic is also not required for one to choose who to side with. Mages or Templars. 

The Deep Roads expediton would still have happened if Hawke was an elf or a dwarf. The requirement was 50 gold not race.

I'm sorry, but if you remove meaning of those two thing, then the HOLE story would be different. Hole idea in story was that there is apostate magic in hawke's family and they family line was noble in Kirkwall.


I haven't thrown out any meaning - your simply not willing to see it from a different perspective.

#138
TEWR

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Filament wrote...

I wouldn't mind being a fex just to find out what the fex a fex is.


We're all pretty fexxing angry that we don't know what the fex a fexxing fex is. Fex, can't we just see a fex for fex's sake? Just one lousy fexxing fex?

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Nobility is not required to own an estate - and Surface Dwarves have no ties to Nobility - any they did have was stripped from them.

Magic is also not required for one to choose who to side with. Mages or Templars. 

The Deep Roads expediton would still have happened if Hawke was an elf or a dwarf. The requirement was 50 gold not race.

I'm sorry, but if you remove meaning of those two thing, then the HOLE story would be different. Hole idea in story was that there is apostate magic in hawke's family and they family line was noble in Kirkwall.


I haven't thrown out any meaning - your simply not willing to see it from a different perspective.


The thing is, you're from a family of mages so you know the problems mages face and can identify with it a lot better.

A dwarf can't. The current society of dwarves cannot use magic.

An elf could understand, but they are treated as second class citizens and the nobility would not let an elf buy an estate in Hightown.

Humans are on equal footing. The nobility are all humans, and thus have no problem with Hawke.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 mai 2011 - 12:50 .


#139
Serpieri Nei

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

seriously....

what is so hard for people to grasp that Thedas will have some stories that revolve around a character who is from one set race?

I doubt anyone would be throwing a tantrum if the main character was just a Dwarf. Or an Elf. Or a Kossith. Or a Fex. Well, the last two everyone would definitely enjoy.

By saying "Bioware didn't bother...." you're implying that they did it out of laziness.


Why is it so hard to grasp that there is other contributing factors as to why Bioware went with a Human Hawke? No one is throwing a tantrum but yourself, and not everyone wants a Mass Effect clone set in a fantasy setting. The only implication I made was that Dragon age 2 was given a shorter devemopment cycle and that it was rushed which has backing from people that worked on the project.

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 10 mai 2011 - 12:52 .


#140
TEWR

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Serpieri Nei wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

seriously....

what is so hard for people to grasp that Thedas will have some stories that revolve around a character who is from one set race?

I doubt anyone would be throwing a tantrum if the main character was just a Dwarf. Or an Elf. Or a Kossith. Or a Fex. Well, the last two everyone would definitely enjoy.

By saying "Bioware didn't bother...." you're implying that they did it out of laziness.


Why is it so hard to grasp that there is other contributing factors as to why Bioware went with a Human Hawke? No one is throwing a tantrum but yourself, and not everyone wants a Mass Effect clone set in a fantasy setting. The only implication I made was that Dragon age 2 was given a shorter devemopment cycle and that it was rushed which has backing from people that worked on the project.




Image IPB  ....really? Look Mr./ Ms./Mrs. Serpieri Nei, if I was throwing a tantrum people would know. I'm terribly obvious about it when I'm pissed off. I'm being civil now. So don't assume you know my attitude in a discussion or what I'm saying. THAT is one of the quickest ways I get pissed off.

I don't want a Mass Effect clone. I've never even played Mass Effect. But now that you bring it up, people probably want it to become a mass effect clone so they can say it became a mass effect clone and feel vindicated.

One game with a set race doesn't equate itself to being a clone of Mass Effect.

I myself have posted on many a thread that it should be something like this. Each game has it at random. Like this:

Game 1 - Origins
Game 2 - Set Race
Game 3 - Origins
4 is origins
5 is set
6 is origins
7 is set
8 is set.

and so on and so forth. It would still be telling a story without turning into a mass effect clone. So far we've had 1 game with Origins and one with Set, and people are flipping out that it's turning into a Mass Effect clone. are there similarities between the two? Yes, the dialogue wheel is one. I don't like it. At first I did, but I like the list more.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 mai 2011 - 01:01 .


#141
MyKingdomCold

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Serpieri Nei wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

seriously....

what is so hard for people to grasp that Thedas will have some stories that revolve around a character who is from one set race?

I doubt anyone would be throwing a tantrum if the main character was just a Dwarf. Or an Elf. Or a Kossith. Or a Fex. Well, the last two everyone would definitely enjoy.

By saying "Bioware didn't bother...." you're implying that they did it out of laziness.


Why is it so hard to grasp that there is other contributing factors as to why Bioware went with a Human Hawke? No one is throwing a tantrum but yourself, and not everyone wants a Mass Effect clone set in a fantasy setting. The only implication I made was that Dragon age 2 was given a shorter devemopment cycle and that it was rushed which has backing from people that worked on the project.



Well, with the way the story is written, you couldn't be a dwarf. Because dwarves can't be magi. Plus, I don't remember there being any elven nobles in Kirkwall.  So the main contributing factor would be Hawke having noble lineage and a mage/magi in the family.

#142
Serpieri Nei

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Filament wrote...

I wouldn't mind being a fex just to find out what the fex a fex is.


We're all pretty fexxing angry that we don't know what the fex a fexxing fex is. Fex, can't we just see a fex for fex's sake? Just one lousy fexxing fex?

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Nobility is not required to own an estate - and Surface Dwarves have no ties to Nobility - any they did have was stripped from them.

Magic is also not required for one to choose who to side with. Mages or Templars. 

The Deep Roads expediton would still have happened if Hawke was an elf or a dwarf. The requirement was 50 gold not race.

I'm sorry, but if you remove meaning of those two thing, then the HOLE story would be different. Hole idea in story was that there is apostate magic in hawke's family and they family line was noble in Kirkwall.


I haven't thrown out any meaning - your simply not willing to see it from a different perspective.


The thing is, you're from a family of mages so you know the problems mages face and can identify with it a lot better.

A dwarf can't. The current society of dwarves cannot use magic.

An elf could understand, but they are treated as second class citizens and the nobility would not let an elf buy an estate in Hightown.

Humans are on equal footing. The nobility are all humans, and thus have no problem with Hawke.


Dwarves deal in Lyrium which brings them in contact with Circle Mages, Apostates, and Templars.
Surface dwarves would also know more of the politics affecting the area around them then the ones in Orzammar. We can also bring into question Sandal's abilities and how the Templar's would view it. An elf may be treated like a second class citizen but it is not written that they cannot acquire wealth, property, or status. Which would of have been a much greater rags to riches story.

Actually, the Humans would have problems with Hawke, but much of that was glossed over by Bioware. 

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 10 mai 2011 - 01:14 .


#143
MyKingdomCold

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The templars might not have problems with Sandal. The tranquil enchant items too.

#144
Serpieri Nei

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

seriously....

what is so hard for people to grasp that Thedas will have some stories that revolve around a character who is from one set race?

I doubt anyone would be throwing a tantrum if the main character was just a Dwarf. Or an Elf. Or a Kossith. Or a Fex. Well, the last two everyone would definitely enjoy.

By saying "Bioware didn't bother...." you're implying that they did it out of laziness.


Why is it so hard to grasp that there is other contributing factors as to why Bioware went with a Human Hawke? No one is throwing a tantrum but yourself, and not everyone wants a Mass Effect clone set in a fantasy setting. The only implication I made was that Dragon age 2 was given a shorter devemopment cycle and that it was rushed which has backing from people that worked on the project.




Image IPB  ....really? Look Mr./ Ms./Mrs. Serpieri Nei, if I was throwing a tantrum people would know. I'm terribly obvious about it when I'm pissed off. I'm being civil now. So don't assume you know my attitude in a discussion or what I'm saying. THAT is one of the quickest ways I get pissed off.

I don't want a Mass Effect clone. I've never even played Mass Effect. But now that you bring it up, people probably want it to become a mass effect clone so they can say it became a mass effect clone and feel vindicated.

One game with a set race doesn't equate itself to being a clone of Mass Effect.

I myself have posted on many a thread that it should be something like this. Each game has it at random. Like this:

Game 1 - Origins
Game 2 - Set Race
Game 3 - Origins
4 is origins
5 is set
6 is origins
7 is set
8 is set.

and so on and so forth. It would still be telling a story without turning into a mass effect clone. So far we've had 1 game with Origins and one with Set, and people are flipping out that it's turning into a Mass Effect clone. are there similarities between the two? Yes, the dialogue wheel is one. I don't like it. At first I did, but I like the list more.


Tantrum was your word, not mine. I would suggest avoiding it in the future if that will lead to you getting as you say pissed off. 

Your right one race doesn't make it a Mass Effect clone, and DA2 does share many things in common with Mass Effect. And yes, the story can be still told, and the story can still be told with Hawke as an elf, dwarf, or human. 

#145
MyKingdomCold

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Serpieri Nei wrote...



Your right one race doesn't make it a Mass Effect clone, and DA2 does share many things in common with Mass Effect. And yes, the story can be still told, and the story can still be told with Hawke as an elf, dwarf, or human. 



really? so Hawke could be a dwarven mage? I'm not saying he/she couldn't be, but imagine there would be a lot of topics about plot holes and problems in the lore if he was a dwarven mage?

#146
TEWR

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Dwarves deal in
Lyrium which brings them in contact with Circle Mages, Apostates, and Templars.
Surface dwarves would also know more of the politics affecting the area around
them then the ones in Orzammar. We can also bring into question Sandal's
abilities and how the Templar's would view it. An elf may be treated like a
second class citizen but it is not written that they cannot acquire wealth,
property, or status. Which would of have been a much greater rags to riches story.

Actually, the Humans would have problems with Hawke, but much of that was glossed over by Bioware.


The Chantry has a monopoly on all lyrium the Dwarves mine. They do not come in contact with the Circles or the Templars. Only the smugglers do.

I never said elves couldn't acquire a good social standing. It just isn't going to happen until people treat them equally. Not in Kirkwall where the nobility and even the commoners talk of the elves in a disdainful fashion. Elves also don't leave the alienage unless it's a last resort, due to the sense of community they all share. This is why Denerim's Alienage elves don't go to the Dalish. Well... that and the fact they think the elves are savages.

#147
Serpieri Nei

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MyKingdomCold wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

seriously....

what is so hard for people to grasp that Thedas will have some stories that revolve around a character who is from one set race?

I doubt anyone would be throwing a tantrum if the main character was just a Dwarf. Or an Elf. Or a Kossith. Or a Fex. Well, the last two everyone would definitely enjoy.

By saying "Bioware didn't bother...." you're implying that they did it out of laziness.


Why is it so hard to grasp that there is other contributing factors as to why Bioware went with a Human Hawke? No one is throwing a tantrum but yourself, and not everyone wants a Mass Effect clone set in a fantasy setting. The only implication I made was that Dragon age 2 was given a shorter devemopment cycle and that it was rushed which has backing from people that worked on the project.



Well, with the way the story is written, you couldn't be a dwarf. Because dwarves can't be magi. Plus, I don't remember there being any elven nobles in Kirkwall.  So the main contributing factor would be Hawke having noble lineage and a mage/magi in the family.


Can you point out by Bartrand would't take a Dwarf or Elf with him?

Can you point out why a Dwarf or Elf can't buy an estate ? Since Bartrand was able too?

Can you point out why the Viscount wouldn't ask an Elf or Dwarf who has words with the Quanari speak to them. When that same Elf or Dwarf has aquired status within the city?

Can you point out why a Dwarf or Elf would not get involved in the Mage vs Templar issue?  Lets, not forget that Varic, Fenris, and Merril each had a reason to do so, and not just becuase they were Hawke's Companions since Fenris had no problem throwing that away.

#148
Serpieri Nei

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MyKingdomCold wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...



Your right one race doesn't make it a Mass Effect clone, and DA2 does share many things in common with Mass Effect. And yes, the story can be still told, and the story can still be told with Hawke as an elf, dwarf, or human. 



really? so Hawke could be a dwarven mage? I'm not saying he/she couldn't be, but imagine there would be a lot of topics about plot holes and problems in the lore if he was a dwarven mage?



Show me where I said a Dwarf would have to be a mage?

#149
Icy Magebane

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An elf can't be Champion of Kirkwall. Maybe a dwarf could get away with it, but definitely not an elf.

#150
MyKingdomCold

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Serpieri Nei wrote...

MyKingdomCold wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...



Your right one race doesn't make it a Mass Effect clone, and DA2 does share many things in common with Mass Effect. And yes, the story can be still told, and the story can still be told with Hawke as an elf, dwarf, or human. 



really? so Hawke could be a dwarven mage? I'm not saying he/she couldn't be, but imagine there would be a lot of topics about plot holes and problems in the lore if he was a dwarven mage?



Show me where I said a Dwarf would have to be a mage?


For the story that was written for DA 2, I assumed you would've thought there would be a mage in the Hawke family.  We're talking about DA 2 where the story has your family with magic in its bloodlines.  So you can talk about the development team being rushed and all that, but with the way the story was written, the dwarf would have to be a mage.

Modifié par MyKingdomCold, 10 mai 2011 - 01:26 .