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[Serpieri Nei]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I never said an elf or a dwarf couldn't go on the expedition. Search through my posts and tell me where I said that. You won't find it.

I'm not saying elves or dwarves couldn't work in any way . I'm saying that given this story that we have, it wouldn't work. So really, this whole entire thread is a moot point. The game's out and there's no reason to lament on what could've been. The past is the past.

Now, if there was an area called Midtown, I could see an elf living there. But not in Hightown. Hightown is for the nobility. everyone there has or had some sort of tie to a noble family. Even the Tethras family. They were nobles once, and even now one could say that Bartrand's running of the Dwarven Merchant's Guild makes him a sort of Merchant King.

For an elf to achieve such a social state, they would need some ties to a noble family. And no elven family has achieved noble status in human lands ever before.

And no I'm not pulling back from my previous statement.

I really don't even see the point in arguing this. The game's out and nothing can be done about it. Hell I'm hoping a dev can come in and settle this for why it could or couldn't work. And even then some people would refuse to take the developer's word on why it could or couldn't work.

Nothing in the story requires you to be human which is the title of this thread. And if I remember correctly all surface dwarves have no claims in Orzammar and are outcasts. So why would a human city allow a stripped dwarven noble an estate? The answer is clear he paid for the estate from the treasure he aquired. So that brings into question, what was the deciding factor to make Hawke human in the first place?

[neppakyo]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Nothing in the story requires you to be human which is the title of this thread. And if I remember correctly all surface dwarves have no claims in Orzammar and are outcasts. So why would a human city allow a stripped dwarven noble an estate? The answer is clear he paid for the estate from the treasure he aquired. So that brings into question, what was the deciding factor to make Hawke human in the first place?

DA2 was human 'cause EAWares data showed more people played the human noble origin from DA:O I bet.

Plus, they wanted another shepard.

[MyKingdomCold]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I never said an elf or a dwarf couldn't go on the expedition. Search through my posts and tell me where I said that. You won't find it.

I'm not saying elves or dwarves couldn't work in any way . I'm saying that given this story that we have, it wouldn't work. So really, this whole entire thread is a moot point. The game's out and there's no reason to lament on what could've been. The past is the past.

Now, if there was an area called Midtown, I could see an elf living there. But not in Hightown. Hightown is for the nobility. everyone there has or had some sort of tie to a noble family. Even the Tethras family. They were nobles once, and even now one could say that Bartrand's running of the Dwarven Merchant's Guild makes him a sort of Merchant King.

For an elf to achieve such a social state, they would need some ties to a noble family. And no elven family has achieved noble status in human lands ever before.

And no I'm not pulling back from my previous statement.

I really don't even see the point in arguing this. The game's out and nothing can be done about it. Hell I'm hoping a dev can come in and settle this for why it could or couldn't work. And even then some people would refuse to take the developer's word on why it could or couldn't work.

Nothing in the story requires you to be human which is the title of this thread. And if I remember correctly all surface dwarves have no claims in Orzammar and are outcasts. So why would a human city allow a stripped dwarven noble an estate? The answer is clear he paid for the estate from the treasure he aquired. So that brings into question, what was the deciding factor to make Hawke human in the first place?

you're still ignoring the fact that there is magic in your family.  your father was a mage. and you or your sister is a mage. with that background, you can't be a dwarf.

[Boiny Bunny]

You know - it doesn't ACTUALLY take that long to record dialogue for a PC (such as Hawke).

Do you actually believe that the voice actors for Hawke sat in a room and didn't leave for 1.5 years, continually recording lines the whole time?

Having a different voice actor for a dwarf and elven Hawke means nothing in terms of time.  Hire 4 more voice actors, record at the same time.

Cost?  Nothing.  Do you think voice actors charge $1 million per day?

There is no time/cost reason for Hawke being human.

Hawke is human for the same reason that Shepard is human.  It's just Bioware's vision for the character.

[Youknow]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

You know - it doesn't ACTUALLY take that long to record dialogue for a PC (such as Hawke).

Do you actually believe that the voice actors for Hawke sat in a room and didn't leave for 1.5 years, continually recording lines the whole time?

Having a different voice actor for a dwarf and elven Hawke means nothing in terms of time.  Hire 4 more voice actors, record at the same time.

Cost?  Nothing.  Do you think voice actors charge $1 million per day?

There is no time/cost reason for Hawke being human.

Hawke is human for the same reason that Shepard is human.  It's just Bioware's vision for the character.

Isn't that dependent on who they hire though? I mean, I can't imagine all of the actors costing similar prices.

As for the topic itself, I still think it'd be cool to see different races of things played out. Just imagine a "'Champ' Hawke Elf that sided with the mages." There wouldn't even be an option to grumble and complain about Hawke's sudden disappearance at the end of DA2. You can understand why an elven Hawke would get the heck out of dodge if they sided with the mages. They don't even have to be the Viscount. I think some of the problem is that the story got too caught up the rise of "Hawke the Champion of Kirkwall," and not "Hawke, the champion of mages/templars/whatever." Because honestly, I don't see the losing team thinking much of Hawke. No matter what the outcome. If you killed the mages, I'd imagine you became enemy number 1 of mages and vice versa for the templars.

[Serpieri Nei]

MyKingdomCold wrote...
you're still ignoring the fact that there is magic in your family.  your father was a mage. and you or your sister is a mage. with that background, you can't be a dwarf.

I'm not ignoring anything, I have provided several points why the story doesn't require you to be human. Since, you wish to dispute this, it's up to you to show where magic or being human is a driving force in the game. 

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 10 mai 2011 - 03:32 .

[MyKingdomCold]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

MyKingdomCold wrote...
you're still ignoring the fact that there is magic in your family.  your father was a mage. and you or your sister is a mage. with that background, you can't be a dwarf.

I'm not ignoring anything, I have provided several points why the story doesn't require you to be human. Since, you wish to dispute this, it's up to you to show where magic is a driving force in the game. 

the story is about how your father was a mage. And you or your sister is a mage.  Where is magic a driving force in the game? Since it seems the story seems to revolve around a conflict between the magi and the chantry/templars, I would say magic is a driving force in the game.

It wouldn't be the same if no one in your family was a mage.  Why should you care about this conflict if you have no vested interest in it?  If everyone in your family was a warrior or a rogue, I don't think the story would be the same.

And we're talking about the story, right? So the fact that your father was a mage and you or your sister is one is part of the story. So, yes since the story requires you or your sister is a mage, you can't be a dwarf.

That's my opinion.

Modifié par MyKingdomCold, 10 mai 2011 - 03:43 .

[neppakyo]

Actually imho, hawke's father being a mage is the only reason you ended up being born in lothering. That is all that it adds to the story. Personal background.

[Youknow]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

MyKingdomCold wrote...
you're still ignoring the fact that there is magic in your family.  your father was a mage. and you or your sister is a mage. with that background, you can't be a dwarf.

I'm not ignoring anything, I have provided several points why the story doesn't require you to be human. Since, you wish to dispute this, it's up to you to show where magic or being human is a driving force in the game. 

It can be argued that human is the only PoV that could be balanced enough to allow us to see everything. As cool as it would be to see different races, I can clearly see why they opted for Human Hawke.

Dragon Age seems to have an incredibly nice society where people generally don't look down upon people of the same race, no matter how differently they look (and this might be due to the fact that other races that aren't even the same species exist).

The human race itself has absolutely no discrimination on itself, so it is free to concentrate on other things. Like the situations at hand. There's a reason that Act 1 is set up the way it is. Because aquiring a house is literally the only "problem" that a human faces. While the mage situation is present, it's very subtley woven into the plot and never actually takes priority over the importance of a house. The issue only really poses a true problem when Hawke is a mage. Otherwise, it's merely a minor inconvience in terms of PoV, even if its your sister, because when you get down to the core of things, you're going to prioritze yourself over someone else. No matter how much you love them. I don't think Hawke mage even needs to be discussed why it doesn't work well. Hawke gets all of the attention, and it doesn't make sense for Hawke to never be inconvienced by this.

  In contrast we have elves, who would simply have problems for moving about just for being an elf. Hawke elf, assuming that they made it to Kirkwall, would at best, have a place to live in the alienage. Hawke attempting to amass wealth by doing odd jobs would be far more difficult, as people are racists, and they are far less likely to bring themselves down to the level of an Elf to ask for help. The Dalish could potentially hide Elven Hawke, so the problem with mage Hawke is fixed, but Elven Hawke has to worry about discrimination from humans (and possibly dwarves as well), which distorts the theme of Mage v. Templar to general discrimination. Which is NOT what the writer wanted to tell. Elven Hawke makes for a story that's far to generalized against discrimination, so I can see why it doesn't work.

Finally, we have Dwarves which cannot be mages, so the templar mage conflict has no real way of making you, as a dwarf sympathize with the plight of the mages in any way whatsoever. In DA2, your sister was a relatively nice person, so you can feel for the problem of being a mage, because it's constantly brought up and your sister is constantly worrying about it. If you are a mage, you have Carver to balance this out by him raging at the fact that you are constantly doing things that could get you in trouble with the templars-- Even if it is horribly written and never of any real consequence, the idea of this happening to you is still present regardless. There's no tension brought on for a dwarf about this. Unless you take it upon yourself to get really cozy with Merril or Anders, which doesn't work for the story, because you could possibly never use Merril or Anders, and then push both away from you. Only one point in the game could even push you to any sort of conflict with the whole theme of the game. And that isn't even between mages and templars. It's between you and (blood) mages.

[Serpieri Nei]

MyKingdomCold wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

MyKingdomCold wrote...
you're still ignoring the fact that there is magic in your family.  your father was a mage. and you or your sister is a mage. with that background, you can't be a dwarf.

I'm not ignoring anything, I have provided several points why the story doesn't require you to be human. Since, you wish to dispute this, it's up to you to show where magic is a driving force in the game. 

the story is about how your father was a mage. And you or your sister is a mage.  Where is magic a driving force in the game? Since it seems the story seems to revolve around a conflict between the magi and the chantry/templars, I would say magic is a driving force in the game.

It wouldn't be the same if no one in your family was a mage.  Why should you care about this conflict if you have no vested interest in it?  If everyone in your family was a warrior or a rogue, I don't think the story would be the same.

That's my opinion.

So the blight was caused by the friction created by the mages and templars which lead to the destruction of Lothering and not by the magic in my blood? And the energy created by that friction guided Hawke to Aveline, and somehow summoned Flementh to my aid? 

I don't need to be a mage or have a relative that is a mage to understand why the mages and templars are at each other throats. Heck, even my companions didn't require that and each had their own feelings on the matter. I would have several vestige interests. Let's see, One - I live in Kirkwall. Two - Some of my companions are Mages. Three - The City needs a leader. Four - The Blooming Rose or the Tavern may get destroyed. Five - This may effect the profits of mine - and would make hiring new staff hard if everyone is dead. Six - I'm the Champion, things are expected of me. Seven - I never liked Meridith or Orsino. Eight - Just think of all the people I can kill and loot - Hmm, well with my luck it would probably be all junk.

[MyKingdomCold]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

MyKingdomCold wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

MyKingdomCold wrote...
you're still ignoring the fact that there is magic in your family.  your father was a mage. and you or your sister is a mage. with that background, you can't be a dwarf.

I'm not ignoring anything, I have provided several points why the story doesn't require you to be human. Since, you wish to dispute this, it's up to you to show where magic is a driving force in the game. 

the story is about how your father was a mage. And you or your sister is a mage.  Where is magic a driving force in the game? Since it seems the story seems to revolve around a conflict between the magi and the chantry/templars, I would say magic is a driving force in the game.

It wouldn't be the same if no one in your family was a mage.  Why should you care about this conflict if you have no vested interest in it?  If everyone in your family was a warrior or a rogue, I don't think the story would be the same.

That's my opinion.

So the blight was caused by the friction created by the mages and templars which lead to the destruction of Lothering and not by the magic in my blood? And the energy created by that friction guided Hawke to Aveline, and somehow summoned Flementh to my aid? 

I don't need to be a mage or have a relative that is a mage to understand why the mages and templars are at each other throats. Heck, even my companions didn't require that and each had their own feelings on the matter. I would have several vestige interests. Let's see, One - I live in Kirkwall. Two - Some of my companions are Mages. Three - The City needs a leader. Four - The Blooming Rose or the Tavern may get destroyed. Five - This may effect the profits of mine - and would make hiring new staff hard if everyone is dead. Six - I'm the Champion, things are expected of me. Seven - I never liked Meridith or Orsino. Eight - Just think of all the people I can kill and loot - Hmm, well with my luck it would probably be all junk.

that's all good and all that, but you asked about DA2's story.  In DA2's story, your family has magic in its blood. It doesn't  just have people who sympathize with and have friends/companions who are magi.  It has a father who was a mage. It has you who are a mage or your sister is a mage.  Take that out, it wouldn't be the story of DA 2.

[Serpieri Nei]

Youknow wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

MyKingdomCold wrote...
you're still ignoring the fact that there is magic in your family.  your father was a mage. and you or your sister is a mage. with that background, you can't be a dwarf.

I'm not ignoring anything, I have provided several points why the story doesn't require you to be human. Since, you wish to dispute this, it's up to you to show where magic or being human is a driving force in the game. 

It can be argued that human is the only PoV that could be balanced enough to allow us to see everything. As cool as it would be to see different races, I can clearly see why they opted for Human Hawke.

Dragon Age seems to have an incredibly nice society where people generally don't look down upon people of the same race, no matter how differently they look (and this might be due to the fact that other races that aren't even the same species exist).

The human race itself has absolutely no discrimination on itself, so it is free to concentrate on other things. Like the situations at hand. There's a reason that Act 1 is set up the way it is. Because aquiring a house is literally the only "problem" that a human faces. While the mage situation is present, it's very subtley woven into the plot and never actually takes priority over the importance of a house. The issue only really poses a true problem when Hawke is a mage. Otherwise, it's merely a minor inconvience in terms of PoV, even if its your sister, because when you get down to the core of things, you're going to prioritze yourself over someone else. No matter how much you love them. I don't think Hawke mage even needs to be discussed why it doesn't work well. Hawke gets all of the attention, and it doesn't make sense for Hawke to never be inconvienced by this.

  In contrast we have elves, who would simply have problems for moving about just for being an elf. Hawke elf, assuming that they made it to Kirkwall, would at best, have a place to live in the alienage. Hawke attempting to amass wealth by doing odd jobs would be far more difficult, as people are racists, and they are far less likely to bring themselves down to the level of an Elf to ask for help. The Dalish could potentially hide Elven Hawke, so the problem with mage Hawke is fixed, but Elven Hawke has to worry about discrimination from humans (and possibly dwarves as well), which distorts the theme of Mage v. Templar to general discrimination. Which is NOT what the writer wanted to tell. Elven Hawke makes for a story that's far to generalized against discrimination, so I can see why it doesn't work.

Finally, we have Dwarves which cannot be mages, so the templar mage conflict has no real way of making you, as a dwarf sympathize with the plight of the mages in any way whatsoever. In DA2, your sister was a relatively nice person, so you can feel for the problem of being a mage, because it's constantly brought up and your sister is constantly worrying about it. If you are a mage, you have Carver to balance this out by him raging at the fact that you are constantly doing things that could get you in trouble with the templars-- Even if it is horribly written and never of any real consequence, the idea of this happening to you is still present regardless. There's no tension brought on for a dwarf about this. Unless you take it upon yourself to get really cozy with Merril or Anders, which doesn't work for the story, because you could possibly never use Merril or Anders, and then push both away from you. Only one point in the game could even push you to any sort of conflict with the whole theme of the game. And that isn't even between mages and templars. It's between you and (blood) mages.

Now that was an interesting read. However....

Elves would have no trouble doing odd jobs, remember at the begining of Kirkwall one of your ways in was working with the smuggler Athenrill who is an elf. She had the resources to get you into the city that you had to work off in a years time. The Dalish can try to hide an elven Hawke but as I have provided earlier, Tempars come looking for Apostate's and are more then willing to kill the Dalish for harboring them. Hawke is no stranger to discrimination he is from Fereldan.

Dwarves are not deaf and blind when it comes to mage and templars. You would be aware of the unrest in the city you live in. You would also have the companions in your parties who have their views on mages and templars. If Varric didn't care about the conflict then he could of easily left the party as well but he has a vested interest in the events that are unfolding as would the player regardless of what race he is. Anders is the pivotal character that brings about this clash, so you can't just not use him. And for Merril you would simply choose not to bring her along or follow up on any of her quests which has no bearing on what race you are.

[Serpieri Nei]

MyKingdomCold wrote...

that's all good and all that, but you asked about DA2's story.  In DA2's story, your family has magic in its blood. It doesn't  just have people who sympathize with and have friends/companions who are magi.  It has a father who was a mage. It has you who are a mage or your sister is a mage.  Take that out, it wouldn't be the story of DA 2.

No, this is about why Hawke needed to be human. Not about magic in the blood. DA2 is not about you being a mage or knowing someone who is the mage. It's about how you became the Champion of Kirkwall, from a penniless refugee.

Excerpt from Dragon Age 2 Homepage

"You are one of the few who escaped the destruction of your home. Now, forced to fight for survival in an ever-changing world, you must gather the deadliest of allies, amass fame and fortune, and seal your place in history. This is the story of how the world changed forever. The legend of your Rise to Power begins now."

[MyKingdomCold]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

MyKingdomCold wrote...

that's all good and all that, but you asked about DA2's story.  In DA2's story, your family has magic in its blood. It doesn't  just have people who sympathize with and have friends/companions who are magi.  It has a father who was a mage. It has you who are a mage or your sister is a mage.  Take that out, it wouldn't be the story of DA 2.

No, this is about why Hawke needed to be human. Not about magic in the blood. DA2 is not about you being a mage or knowing someone who is the mage. It's about how you became the Champion of Kirkwall, from a penniless refugee.

Excerpt from Dragon Age 2 Homepage

"You are one of the few who escaped the destruction of your home. Now, forced to fight for survival in an ever-changing world, you must gather the deadliest of allies, amass fame and fortune, and seal your place in history. This is the story of how the world changed forever. The legend of your Rise to Power begins now."

yes, it is about whether or not Hawke needed to be human. but as I said earlier, you can't be a dwarf because DA2's story has magic in your family.  It wouldn't be DA2 if your father wasn't a mage. It wouldn't be DA2 if you or your sister weren't a mage.  So yes, going by the story, Hawke could be a human or an elf, but not a dwarf.

[Serpieri Nei]

MyKingdomCold wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

MyKingdomCold wrote...

that's all good and all that, but you asked about DA2's story.  In DA2's story, your family has magic in its blood. It doesn't  just have people who sympathize with and have friends/companions who are magi.  It has a father who was a mage. It has you who are a mage or your sister is a mage.  Take that out, it wouldn't be the story of DA 2.

No, this is about why Hawke needed to be human. Not about magic in the blood. DA2 is not about you being a mage or knowing someone who is the mage. It's about how you became the Champion of Kirkwall, from a penniless refugee.

Excerpt from Dragon Age 2 Homepage

"You are one of the few who escaped the destruction of your home. Now, forced to fight for survival in an ever-changing world, you must gather the deadliest of allies, amass fame and fortune, and seal your place in history. This is the story of how the world changed forever. The legend of your Rise to Power begins now."

yes, it is about whether or not Hawke needed to be human. but as I said earlier, you can't be a dwarf because DA2's story has magic in your family.  It wouldn't be DA2 if your father wasn't a mage. It wouldn't be DA2 if you or your sister weren't a mage.  So yes, going by the story, Hawke could be a human or an elf, but not a dwarf.

Excerpt from Dragon Age 2 Homepage

"You are one of the few who escaped the destruction of your home. Now, forced to fight for survival in an ever-changing world, you must gather the deadliest of allies, amass fame and fortune, and seal your place in history. This is the story of how the world changed forever. The legend of your Rise to Power begins now."

As stated previously, DA2 is story about your rise to power from a destitute refugee to the revered champion of the land. This is the overal driving force behind the game

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 10 mai 2011 - 04:44 .

[Youknow]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

MyKingdomCold wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

MyKingdomCold wrote...
you're still ignoring the fact that there is magic in your family.  your father was a mage. and you or your sister is a mage. with that background, you can't be a dwarf.

I'm not ignoring anything, I have provided several points why the story doesn't require you to be human. Since, you wish to dispute this, it's up to you to show where magic is a driving force in the game. 

the story is about how your father was a mage. And you or your sister is a mage.  Where is magic a driving force in the game? Since it seems the story seems to revolve around a conflict between the magi and the chantry/templars, I would say magic is a driving force in the game.

It wouldn't be the same if no one in your family was a mage.  Why should you care about this conflict if you have no vested interest in it?  If everyone in your family was a warrior or a rogue, I don't think the story would be the same.

That's my opinion.

So the blight was caused by the friction created by the mages and templars which lead to the destruction of Lothering and not by the magic in my blood? And the energy created by that friction guided Hawke to Aveline, and somehow summoned Flementh to my aid? 

I don't need to be a mage or have a relative that is a mage to understand why the mages and templars are at each other throats. Heck, even my companions didn't require that and each had their own feelings on the matter. I would have several vestige interests. Let's see, One - I live in Kirkwall. Two - Some of my companions are Mages. Three - The City needs a leader. Four - The Blooming Rose or the Tavern may get destroyed. Five - This may effect the profits of mine - and would make hiring new staff hard if everyone is dead. Six - I'm the Champion, things are expected of me. Seven - I never liked Meridith or Orsino. Eight - Just think of all the people I can kill and loot - Hmm, well with my luck it would probably be all junk.

No, the first part of the game wouldn't matter what you were. Whether you were a mage or even a werewolf for that matter. That much is very true.

Yes, you do. The tension practically doesn't do anything to you otherwise. You are simply an onlooker on a problem that in no way relates to you until Act 3 and even then, the game would feel even more forced than Act 3 already feels. Two characters? More like one in a best scenario, and you might not even necessarily like her, and you can make her angry over things that aren't mage things. Your sister on the other hand, unless you plan on being a jerktown, there's a good chance you like your sister. Regardless of that, even if your sister pisses you off, it's probably OVER mage ordeals that made her angry with you in the first place, as it's hard to get her upset overall outside of just saying "mages suck." So even then, the mage ideas are still being placed in your hand.

1. You do live in Kirkwall, but the cirumstances are completely different. As a human, you're ignored. As an elf, you're acively hated. As a dwarf, you are ignored unless you are a merchant or something. The PoV is significantly weaker as a Elf, because you're facing multiple types of discimination. And for Dwarves, it's harder to relate to when your race as a whole can't be mages, and might not even care outside of the lyrium trade.

2. Both of which I'm pretty sure aren't mandatory. Most of Merril's problems for instance, don't even relate to being a mage. Her past does, but her present does not. Anders forces the conflict on you, but you can then choose to IGNORE it after that because you get what you needed from him and then ignore it forever. I can't keep explaining why without spoilers, but at the end of Act 1, it should be obvious why Mage V. Templar is even implied. And if you are a mage, then it's constantly hanging over your head (even if it's poorly done). There had to be some sort of way to involve you in the conflict. This is the same way that Duncan does this in DA:O. It's the reason that you can't just be *anyone* in DA:O, because Duncan has to come and pretty much force Become a Grey Warden on the player. In this case, the game has to have some fashion of forcing Mage versus Templar. It simply cannot be optional.

3. Yes. They do need a leader, of which case, HawkeHuman is clearly the best choice. Throwing an Elf, the most hated race in all of Kirkwall outside of the Qunari, would be a political disaster. Dwarf far less so, and would probably be a VERY good idea if the Templar was sided with. As a race that literally could not use magic could be the embodiment of how people should be. But again, the conflict is significantly weaker with a Dwarf than the other races. Don't confuse the lackluster writing at moments with the fact that HumanHawke is not the best choice for telling this story. It clearly can retain focus better... What little was actually done over the course of the game.

4. Perhaps.

5. Isn't optional to even get the mine towards the end? Besides, that'd be a continuity nightmare if you started ignoring that guy later on. I'm pretty sure he's not a storyline quest.

6. I can bet you wouldn't be the champion as an elf. Maybe a dwarf, and definitely a human with noble origins, but an elf!? An elf!? It'd be even more difficult to explain that. 

7. Orsino is a jerk that needed more development, and Merideth belongs in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon or DBZ.

8. I just can't get enough of junk. The way it just clogs up my inventory space and usually sells for less than just grabbing some silvers from them. Sometimes when I see "inventory full" and realize about 1/3 of it is junk, I immediately stop playing and throw away some of the stuff that I have that could be considered junk. Hey! A good habit formed because of DA2.


Sealing your place in history is "resolving the Mage Versus Templar" part. Before then, Hawke would have been a household name in Kirkwall, and may have been heard outside of Kirkwall on the outskirts, but certainly not a person that sealed their place in history. 

Modifié par Youknow, 10 mai 2011 - 04:46 .

[Melca36]

Hawke is human because it would generate the MOST sales.

There was some data that the majority of gamers played the Human origin, The Mage Origin,

The third highest was elven origin

Only 5% played dwarves.

[MyKingdomCold]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

MyKingdomCold wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

MyKingdomCold wrote...

that's all good and all that, but you asked about DA2's story.  In DA2's story, your family has magic in its blood. It doesn't  just have people who sympathize with and have friends/companions who are magi.  It has a father who was a mage. It has you who are a mage or your sister is a mage.  Take that out, it wouldn't be the story of DA 2.

No, this is about why Hawke needed to be human. Not about magic in the blood. DA2 is not about you being a mage or knowing someone who is the mage. It's about how you became the Champion of Kirkwall, from a penniless refugee.

Excerpt from Dragon Age 2 Homepage

"You are one of the few who escaped the destruction of your home. Now, forced to fight for survival in an ever-changing world, you must gather the deadliest of allies, amass fame and fortune, and seal your place in history. This is the story of how the world changed forever. The legend of your Rise to Power begins now."

yes, it is about whether or not Hawke needed to be human. but as I said earlier, you can't be a dwarf because DA2's story has magic in your family.  It wouldn't be DA2 if your father wasn't a mage. It wouldn't be DA2 if you or your sister weren't a mage.  So yes, going by the story, Hawke could be a human or an elf, but not a dwarf.

Excerpt from Dragon Age 2 Homepage

"You are one of the few who escaped the destruction of your home. Now, forced to fight for survival in an ever-changing world, you must gather the deadliest of allies, amass fame and fortune, and seal your place in history. This is the story of how the world changed forever. The legend of your Rise to Power begins now."

As stated previously, DA2 is story about your rise to power from a destitute refugee to the revered champion of the land. This is the overal driving force behind the game

yes, but again you seem to ignore that an important part of the story  is how magic is in your blood.  It's why your mother left Kirkwall for Ferelden.   An another important part of the story would be how you or your sister is a mage.  Again, it wouldn't be the same story without these aspects.    If you pay attention to the story, magic plays a very important part.

I don't know if I should bother any more. So I'll end with this. The story would be different without the magic in your bloodline aspect.  So no DA2's story wouldn't allow dwarves as the protagonist.

Modifié par MyKingdomCold, 10 mai 2011 - 04:57 .

[Youknow]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Youknow wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

MyKingdomCold wrote...
you're still ignoring the fact that there is magic in your family.  your father was a mage. and you or your sister is a mage. with that background, you can't be a dwarf.

I'm not ignoring anything, I have provided several points why the story doesn't require you to be human. Since, you wish to dispute this, it's up to you to show where magic or being human is a driving force in the game. 

It can be argued that human is the only PoV that could be balanced enough to allow us to see everything. As cool as it would be to see different races, I can clearly see why they opted for Human Hawke.

Dragon Age seems to have an incredibly nice society where people generally don't look down upon people of the same race, no matter how differently they look (and this might be due to the fact that other races that aren't even the same species exist).

The human race itself has absolutely no discrimination on itself, so it is free to concentrate on other things. Like the situations at hand. There's a reason that Act 1 is set up the way it is. Because aquiring a house is literally the only "problem" that a human faces. While the mage situation is present, it's very subtley woven into the plot and never actually takes priority over the importance of a house. The issue only really poses a true problem when Hawke is a mage. Otherwise, it's merely a minor inconvience in terms of PoV, even if its your sister, because when you get down to the core of things, you're going to prioritze yourself over someone else. No matter how much you love them. I don't think Hawke mage even needs to be discussed why it doesn't work well. Hawke gets all of the attention, and it doesn't make sense for Hawke to never be inconvienced by this.

  In contrast we have elves, who would simply have problems for moving about just for being an elf. Hawke elf, assuming that they made it to Kirkwall, would at best, have a place to live in the alienage. Hawke attempting to amass wealth by doing odd jobs would be far more difficult, as people are racists, and they are far less likely to bring themselves down to the level of an Elf to ask for help. The Dalish could potentially hide Elven Hawke, so the problem with mage Hawke is fixed, but Elven Hawke has to worry about discrimination from humans (and possibly dwarves as well), which distorts the theme of Mage v. Templar to general discrimination. Which is NOT what the writer wanted to tell. Elven Hawke makes for a story that's far to generalized against discrimination, so I can see why it doesn't work.

Finally, we have Dwarves which cannot be mages, so the templar mage conflict has no real way of making you, as a dwarf sympathize with the plight of the mages in any way whatsoever. In DA2, your sister was a relatively nice person, so you can feel for the problem of being a mage, because it's constantly brought up and your sister is constantly worrying about it. If you are a mage, you have Carver to balance this out by him raging at the fact that you are constantly doing things that could get you in trouble with the templars-- Even if it is horribly written and never of any real consequence, the idea of this happening to you is still present regardless. There's no tension brought on for a dwarf about this. Unless you take it upon yourself to get really cozy with Merril or Anders, which doesn't work for the story, because you could possibly never use Merril or Anders, and then push both away from you. Only one point in the game could even push you to any sort of conflict with the whole theme of the game. And that isn't even between mages and templars. It's between you and (blood) mages.

Now that was an interesting read. However....

Elves would have no trouble doing odd jobs, remember at the begining of Kirkwall one of your ways in was working with the smuggler Athenrill who is an elf. She had the resources to get you into the city that you had to work off in a years time. The Dalish can try to hide an elven Hawke but as I have provided earlier, Tempars come looking for Apostate's and are more then willing to kill the Dalish for harboring them. Hawke is no stranger to discrimination he is from Fereldan.

Dwarves are not deaf and blind when it comes to mage and templars. You would be aware of the unrest in the city you live in. You would also have the companions in your parties who have their views on mages and templars. If Varric didn't care about the conflict then he could of easily left the party as well but he has a vested interest in the events that are unfolding as would the player regardless of what race he is. Anders is the pivotal character that brings about this clash, so you can't just not use him. And for Merril you would simply choose not to bring her along or follow up on any of her quests which has no bearing on what race you are.

But don't forget that Athenrill was an elf that did jobs that weren't considered "well liked." You aren't gaining any real fame by smuggling. As now you're a target for the town guards, in addition to being an already hated race. A perfect example of this, is how most of your party is NOT happy if you choose to help Athenrill again later on.  And yeah, that's true that the Templars might come searching for apostates, but they seem to simply stay away from the Dalish in general. Although, considering how weird the Dalish are, you might be on to something though with your companions from earlier. If you as an Elf accept Merril into the party, then you are banned from the Dalish camp. It makes sense because they might consider your support of her as treachery against their word.

Varric might not be interested in the Mage Versus Templar situation. What he's interested in is money and fame and telling good stories to get the 2 former ones. Varric is interested in Hawke from a business standpoint. Now that you've said this, I really wish we could have asked him more about his opinion on that. And yeah, you can *just not use Anders* on one quest, he mucks up big time, and you can tell him to go away. He's gone for the rest of the game until THAT SCENE. No joke, as this is what I did, because Anders incessant "mage, mage, mage, mage, mage, templar, justice, justice, mage, mage, mage..." Got real old. Real fast. Given the opportunity to tell him to go away. I did.

A funny thought, would having 3 different campaigns make people happier with the overall game? I know I would have liked 3 different scenarios. Would have been cool.

[Serpieri Nei]

Youknow wrote...

No, the first part of the game wouldn't matter what you were. Whether you were a mage or even a werewolf for that matter. That much is very true.

Yes, you do. The tension practically doesn't do anything to you otherwise. You are simply an onlooker on a problem that in no way relates to you until Act 3 and even then, the game would feel even more forced than Act 3 already feels. Two characters? More like one in a best scenario, and you might not even necessarily like her, and you can make her angry over things that aren't mage things. Your sister on the other hand, unless you plan on being a jerktown, there's a good chance you like your sister. Regardless of that, even if your sister pisses you off, it's probably OVER mage ordeals that made her angry with you in the first place, as it's hard to get her upset overall outside of just saying "mages suck." So even then, the mage ideas are still being placed in your hand.

1. You do live in Kirkwall, but the cirumstances are completely different. As a human, you're ignored. As an elf, you're acively hated. As a dwarf, you are ignored unless you are a merchant or something. The PoV is significantly weaker as a Elf, because you're facing multiple types of discimination. And for Dwarves, it's harder to relate to when your race as a whole can't be mages, and might not even care outside of the lyrium trade.

2. Both of which I'm pretty sure aren't mandatory. Most of Merril's problems for instance, don't even relate to being a mage. Her past does, but her present does not. Anders forces the conflict on you, but you can then choose to IGNORE it after that because you get what you needed from him and then ignore it forever. I can't keep explaining why without spoilers, but at the end of Act 1, it should be obvious why Mage V. Templar is even implied. And if you are a mage, then it's constantly hanging over your head (even if it's poorly done). There had to be some sort of way to involve you in the conflict. This is the same way that Duncan does this in DA:O. It's the reason that you can't just be *anyone* in DA:O, because Duncan has to come and pretty much force Become a Grey Warden on the player. In this case, the game has to have some fashion of forcing Mage versus Templar. It simply cannot be optional.

3. Yes. They do need a leader, of which case, HawkeHuman is clearly the best choice. Throwing an Elf, the most hated race in all of Kirkwall outside of the Qunari, would be a political disaster. Dwarf far less so, and would probably be a VERY good idea if the Templar was sided with. As a race that literally could not use magic could be the embodiment of how people should be. But again, the conflict is significantly weaker with a Dwarf than the other races. Don't confuse the lackluster writing at moments with the fact that HumanHawke is not the best choice for telling this story. It clearly can retain focus better... What little was actually done over the course of the game.

4. Perhaps.

5. Isn't optional to even get the mine towards the end? Besides, that'd be a continuity nightmare if you started ignoring that guy later on. I'm pretty sure he's not a storyline quest.

6. I can bet you wouldn't be the champion as an elf. Maybe a dwarf, and definitely a human with noble origins, but an elf!? An elf!? It'd be even more difficult to explain that. 

7. Orsino is a jerk that needed more development, and Merideth belongs in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon or DBZ.

8. I just can't get enough of junk. The way it just clogs up my inventory space and usually sells for less than just grabbing some silvers from them. Sometimes when I see "inventory full" and realize about 1/3 of it is junk, I immediately stop playing and throw away some of the stuff that I have that could be considered junk. Hey! A good habit formed because of DA2.

What tension? As a human mage I am ignored by the Templars, nor do any mages seek to align themselves with me for let's say mutual protection. As a human rogue/warrior my sister is either a Warden or is now in the Circle of the Magi. This does not change ACT II or III in any way, the Arishok still kills the Viscount, Anders still instigates the war and we are all aware that whoever we side with the outcome is the same even though some of the circumstances differ. 

The PoV for an elf would not be weaker - they have as much opportunity to garner the wealth in act 1, which leads to the events in act 2 where your past actives with the Quanari gets your notice of the Viscount who asks that you look into his demands. Varric was able to relate or he would of just left your party no matter whose side you choose. No skin of his teeth.

You can't ignore Anders unless you stop playing the game and choose not to continue to ACT III. And if you chose to ignore Merril, you can also choose to ignore that your sister is a mage. Which won't affect or change the following ACT's.

A Human is not needed to lead. Simply the will to do so. And whose left to challenge an Elven ruler? The Arishok?, Orsiono?, Meridith? The spineless nobles? Sebastian, now that I would have loved to see. 

You become a partner to the mine - and can choose to be a full owner at the end.

The Title of Champion was given to Hawke for defeating the Arishok either through diplomacy, a battle, or a duel. Not because his mother came from a noble lineage. 

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 10 mai 2011 - 05:17 .

[Anyroad2]

Wow, I can't believe people are saying that Hawke could have been an elf in DA2 without MAJOR changes in the story and background. The idea is insane, absolutely.

Elves are the most hated race in Thedas aside from the Qunari. Elves only commonly fill a few roles in society: Slaves, Servants, ****s, 2nd class Citizen, or Dangerous Outcasts. There are no lines of elven lineage that is looked upon as equal among the dominant Human society. An elf being made Viscount or Champion would cause even more turmoil in Kirkwall which I'm sure would lead to Act 3 being vastly different... so much so that it would be unrecognizable.

An argument could be made concerning the elf origins from DAO, that elves can be recognized and held highly in human culture. To some extent thats right, however you need to remember that in DAO you play one of the last Wardens in all of Ferelden during a Blight whos in possession of ancient pacts signed by the Human, Dwarven and Elven kind who is also accompanied by the last living heir to the Theirin throne (known only to some, who have considerable influence ). However even after the Elf Warden saves Ferelden (and the world) from the 5th Blight, you cannot gain additional influence beyond that which you have from knowing the ruler (whoever you chose). As a female elf in love with Al, you still can't become queen because of your race. The only thing you can continue on to do is work with the elves of your chosen Origin and advance in the Grey Warden Order which isnt held back by racial views.

Taking in all that, if Hawke were to be an elf... well you couldnt have (or claim to have) noble relatives in Kirkwall, which I remind you all is the only reason Hawkes family chooses to travel there in the first place. If an elf were to travel to Kirkwall and asked the guard to look for a relative I doubt the guard would care at all, and even if he did, I doubt he would know who your relation is... As its mentioned in DA2 the elves in the alienage are mostly ignored except when they turn to crime.


Now, I'm all for options and I would have loved to have had the option to play as a non-human race in the sequel to DAO (I mean come on, the redesigns are mostly awesome), but thats simply would not have worked for the direction Bioware wanted the story to go.

If this were to be the trend in future Dragon Age titles... I'll have an issue with it. Bioware games are games that I play for custom choices... Its something that DAO did great even if ones based on the race you played were mostly substanceless, just added flavor.

Modifié par Anyroad2, 10 mai 2011 - 07:44 .

[Serpieri Nei]

Anyroad2 wrote...

Wow, I can't believe people are saying that Hawke could have been an elf in DA2 without MAJOR changes in the story and background. The idea is insane, absolutely.

Elves are the most hated race in Thedas aside from the Qunari. Elves only commonly fill a few roles in society: Slaves, Servants, ****s, 2nd class Citizen, or Dangerous Outcasts. There are no lines of elven lineage that is looked upon as equal among the dominant Human society. An elf being made Viscount or Champion would cause even more turmoil in Kirkwall which I'm sure would lead to Act 3 being vastly different... so much so that it would be unrecognizable.

An argument could be made concerning the elf origins from DAO, that elves can be recognized and held highly in human culture. To some extent thats right, however you need to remember that in DAO you play one of the last Wardens in all of Ferelden during a Blight whos in possession of ancient pacts signed by the Human, Dwarven and Elven kind who is also accompanied by the last living heir to the Theirin throne (known only to some, who have considerable influence ). However even after the Elf Warden saves Ferelden (and the world) from the 5th Blight, you cannot gain additional influence beyond that which you have from knowing the ruler (whoever you chose). As a female elf in love with Al, you still can't become queen because of your race. The only thing you can continue on to do is work with the elves of your chosen Origin and advance in the Grey Warden Order which isnt held back by racial views.

Taking in all that, if Hawke were to be an elf... well you couldnt have (or claim to have) noble relatives in Kirkwall, which I remind you all is the only reason Hawkes family chooses to travel there in the first place. If an elf were to travel to Kirkwall and asked the guard to look for a relative I doubt the guard would care at all, and even if he did, I doubt he would know who your relation is... As its mentioned in DA2 the elves in the alienage are mostly ignored except when they turn to crime.


Now, I'm all for options and I would have loved to have had the option to play as a non-human race in the sequel to DAO (I mean come on, the redesigns are mostly awesome), but thats simply would not have worked for the direction Bioware wanted the story to go.

If this were to be the trend in future Dragon Age titles... I'll have an issue with it. Bioware games are games that I play for custom choices... Its something that DAO did great even if ones based on the race you played were mostly substanceless, just added flavor.

Enlighten us, what re-writes are needed?

The city elves are seen as second class citizens. Before that the elves were on friendly terms, then they were attacked by the Imperium. The elven slaves that followed won Andraste's favour. For a long time the humans once again respected their elven allies. And once again it was humans from the Chantry that brought about another war. The elves that accepted the terms of the humans began to live in the Alienages inside human cities and were even allowed to worhip the maker. What a fearsome and hated enemy the elves are that humans not only share their city with but their God as well.

An elf that would become Viscount would be seen as a savior by the people of kirkwall, as the elven slaves in the past recieved Andraste's favour and became allies of the humans. Sadly, Act III would not change in any way since the Templars and Mages would continue hating each other.

Origins has no real impact on DA2, Bioware saw to that. And the difference in power and scoial status between a Viscount and a Queen is huge. And let us not forget that the Dalish Warden was given land for his people and the city elves were made equals. It seems humans love to reward elves when they save their lives. And I bet Kirkwall would do the same, and then one day betray the elves. How capricious we humans are.

[Perles75]

I HATE the way all the threads are used to bash the game! This could have been an interesting discussion and instead it has become the m-pth thread of "game is crap". Bah.

Anyway, considering the story, I hardly see how Hawke could have been another race, unless several elements (much more than in DAO) of the main plot and of Hawke's background had been modified.

[Anyroad2]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Enlighten us, what re-writes are needed?

The city elves are seen as second class citizens. Before that the elves were on friendly terms, then they were attacked by the Imperium. The elven slaves that followed won Andraste's favour. For a long time the humans once again respected their elven allies. And once again it was humans from the Chantry that brought about another war. The elves that accepted the terms of the humans began to live in the Alienages inside human cities and were even allowed to worhip the maker. What a fearsome and hated enemy the elves are that humans not only share their city with but their God as well.

An elf that would become Viscount would be seen as a savior by the people of kirkwall, as the elven slaves in the past recieved Andraste's favour and became allies of the humans. Sadly, Act III would not change in any way since the Templars and Mages would continue hating each other.

Origins has no real impact on DA2, Bioware saw to that. And the difference in power and scoial status between a Viscount and a Queen is huge. And let us not forget that the Dalish Warden was given land for his people and the city elves were made equals. It seems humans love to reward elves when they save their lives. And I bet Kirkwall would do the same, and then one day betray the elves. How capricious we humans are.

I'm no writer, I have no idea what rewrites would need to be made. All I know is that it would have taken more time, time that EA/Bioware didn't have room for.

I never said anything about elves being a fearsome and hated enemy as a whole. When I mentioned "Dangerous" I was reffering to the Dalish who are openly hostile to most non-Dalish and the many elves that resort to crime.

Playing a big part in saving one of three major cities in the Free Marches isnt anywhere near as huge as an entire people joining Andraste in an Exalted March or a member of that people being key hero is bringing an end to a Blight which would have otherwise surely destroyed an entire nation and then gone on to threaten more of the world. What all this comes down to is "Star Power" (I guess). Hawke might be a hero to people in Kirkwall, but the Warden is a hero to nations and a world wide order. Certianly an international hero would be given greater boons and more respect than someone who saves one city, and plays a significant part in throwing the world into a Templar - Mage War (unknowingly or not).

Modifié par Anyroad2, 10 mai 2011 - 09:04 .

[Lumikki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


An elf could understand, but they are treated as second class citizens and the nobility would not let an elf buy an estate in Hightown.

Humans are on equal footing. The nobility are all humans, and thus have no problem with Hawke.

The real issues was claiming "Amell" nobility back. Meaning to buy the estate back what was lost, they needed to be noble allready. You needed three thing to be able to buy the state. Be someone to get audience with Viscount, have the wealth to buy it back and be noble by heritage (history). Elf could do the two first, but elf can't be noble, because they are consider as second class citizens, so other nobles would not support they point to try to become noble. So, it was not just buy the estate, but prove that you family is still the noble they use to be.

Now after saying that. I think Elf gameplay could be very close to possible, how ever Dwarf would not be, because lack of magic. Mostly because the nobility issue was just side story issue, but magic issue was main point of the game.

Change made because Elf would been small, but changes made because Dwarf would change alot. I mean sure you could still play the mage and templar conflict even with Dwarf, but a lot of background comment and situations everywhere in the story wound need to be changed. I mean there was alot of situation where been apostage was part of story. Sure you could play without appostage mage in family, but it would require a lot of changes in story. Example start tutorial need to be changed. Few quest lines in many quests need to be changed. Also it would bring the question, why would Dwarf support mages at all, if they have no magic. It would not keep the balance between conflict same, like it's now when you and you sibling is in different side by class.

Would it be possible to do it with all three race?

Maybe, if they would have done it origin ways. How ever, Dwarf unability handle magic, would be big balance issue in this story. Meaning Dwarf would not really care much of mage / templar issue as it has nothing to do with they race.

Modifié par Lumikki, 10 mai 2011 - 10:15 .