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[Black Raptor]

lazuli wrote...

Black Raptor wrote...
Just to reiterate, Thane is statistically one of the worst squad members. Zaeed and Legion are much better snipers, throw is useless, shredder ammo is useless and if you want warp, just take Miranda (the best squaddy btw) 

This is simply not true.  Yeah, Shredder Ammo is pretty awful.  But you only get 30 squad points with Thane anyways, so spend them on this three abilities that matter: Throw, Warp, and his passive.  If you think Throw is useless on anything above Veteran then perhaps you haven't discovered just how quickly defenses can be stripped.  Thane's Throw Field (thanks to the LotSB re-spec) nets kills reliably on the DCS mission for me on Insanity.  And Warp's effectiveness speaks for itself on all difficulty levels.

I would rank Thane as "statistically" one of the best squad members, tied with Garrus and Zaeed and right behind Miranda and Liara.

Whaaa?  Perhaps you haven't realised how quickly health is stripped. Honestly, the only thing that matters is getting their defences down, then any enemy is as good as dead. Powers that damage health are practically useless because there is never more than 1 enemy without some sort of defence at any one time, and that enemy is always going to be the weakest and least threatening. 

Warp is good yes, but Miranda has warp. She is statistically the best squad member and buffs other squaddies. Miranda>Thane in all circumstances and if you have Miranda there is no point taking Thane along as any additional perks he has are already covered better by other squad members. 

Also, as much as it pains me to say it, Garrus has too little health to be all that useful, and his powers and weapons (like Thane) are covered better by squaddies such as Zaeed and Legion. Liara, like all biotic specialists, is one of the worst as biotics other than warp (which Miranda has) are useless against anything other than health, and that is the least important defence. 

[lazuli]

Black Raptor wrote...

Whaaa?  Perhaps you haven't realised how quickly health is stripped. Honestly, the only thing that matters is getting their defences down, then any enemy is as good as dead. Powers that damage health are practically useless because there is never more than 1 enemy without some sort of defence at any one time, and that enemy is always going to be the weakest and least threatening. 

First of all, here's a thread about health and how enemies don't just turn to vapor when their defenses drop.  Secondly, if you never have more than one defenseless enemy at a time you're not using area effect powers properly.  Area Overload, for instance, can easily drop the shields off of multiple goons, provided you time it correctly.  And let's not forget Warp bombs, for which Thane is quite useful.  To clarify, I'm not defending Shredder Ammo.  I think it's basically trash.  But Thane's other three abilities more than make up for it, thanks to the Shadow Broker re-spec.

Black Raptor wrote...
Warp is good yes, but Miranda has warp. She is statistically the best squad member and buffs other squaddies. Miranda>Thane in all circumstances and if you have Miranda there is no point taking Thane along as any additional perks he has are already covered better by other squad members. 

I'm not arguing that Thane is better than Miranda.  But when you're fighting Collectors, why not take both of them?  Some builds/levels call for two sources of Warp, or at the very least have the potential to take advantage of them.

Black Raptor wrote...
Also, as much as it pains me to say it, Garrus has too little health to be all that useful, and his powers and weapons (like Thane) are covered better by squaddies such as Zaeed and Legion.

Garrus has fairly standard health for a squadmate.  His powers are in fact not better covered by other squadmates as he has the potential for the highest damage Overload of all squadmates, to say nothing of the additional appeal his Incisor provides.  Zaeed has Squad Disruptor Ammo, which is arguably better than Overload in some respects (though, like with Thane and Miranda vs. Collectors, why not use both?).  But Legion?  Legion's build is probably the worst of any squadmate.  He has the Widow going for him.  And with a Sentinel Shepard recharging his Drones, Legion goes from being terrible to downright amazing.  Beyond that, though, his cooldowns are just too long and his powers just too unappealing to get much use out of him.

Black Raptor wrote...
Liara, like all biotic specialists, is one of the worst as biotics other than warp (which Miranda has) are useless against anything other than health, and that is the least important defence. 

What?  Every single one of Liara's abilities is amazing.  She has Singularity for staggers against protected opponents and for lifts against opponents without protections.  She has Warp for Warp bombs and dropping shields/barrier/regenerating health.  She has Stasis which speaks for itself.  Finally, her passive reduces cooldowns.  There are only two things wrong with Liara: she's a temporary squadmate and she has less squad points than she should.

[AtreiyaN7]

I sort of rotated through them because I wanted to hang out with certain party members. I went with Garrus, Legion & Thane - mostly Thane because he was, ahem, interesting.

[aimlessgun]

Black Raptor wrote...

Whaaa?  Perhaps you haven't realised how quickly health is stripped. Honestly, the only thing that matters is getting their defences down, then any enemy is as good as dead. Powers that damage health are practically useless because there is never more than 1 enemy without some sort of defence at any one time, and that enemy is always going to be the weakest and least threatening. 

Warp is good yes, but Miranda has warp. She is statistically the best squad member and buffs other squaddies. Miranda>Thane in all circumstances and if you have Miranda there is no point taking Thane along as any additional perks he has are already covered better by other squad members. 

Also, as much as it pains me to say it, Garrus has too little health to be all that useful, and his powers and weapons (like Thane) are covered better by squaddies such as Zaeed and Legion. Liara, like all biotic specialists, is one of the worst as biotics other than warp (which Miranda has) are useless against anything other than health, and that is the least important defence. 

The reason enemies are as good as dead with defenses down is because of squaddies like Liara. Without crowd control it doesn't matter if their defenses are down: they have more health than defenses and health takes less damage from all weapons.

Miranda is a fine squaddie. But unless you need both Overload and Warp, she is not categorically superior to Thane.

[Someone With Mass]

I think Kasumi is a much better squadmate than Miranda, anyway.

[dreman9999]

Of coure, most times no one can get close to attack because of snipers with me and my sniper adept.

[Ice Cold J]

Typically, I go by powers needed rather than weapons.
That being said, if I need overload, I sometimes bring Garrus along.
If I need something to use against barriers, I bring Thane and his warp ability.
Armor? Zaeed and his inferno grenade.

My main Shep uses a sniper (pretty well, I might add), so snipers aren't necessarily a priority.

In ME1, there were few battles where sniping was ideal, but, if I had Garrus or Ash with me, it was just a lucky bonus.

[AK404]

Black Raptor wrote...

Warp is good yes, but Miranda has warp. She is statistically the best squad member and buffs other squaddies. Miranda>Thane in all circumstances and if you have Miranda there is no point taking Thane along as any additional perks he has are already covered better by other squad members. 

Also, as much as it pains me to say it, Garrus has too little health to be all that useful, and his powers and weapons (like Thane) are covered better by squaddies such as Zaeed and Legion. Liara, like all biotic specialists, is one of the worst as biotics other than warp (which Miranda has) are useless against anything other than health, and that is the least important defence. 

Miranda and Thane have trade-offs: Miranda offers a group health and damage buff while Thane offers pure damage and range.  However, since this thread is about three-sniper squads, Thane is very likely going to be on your team.

As for Liara being useless...do you even know what Singularity does to barriers and armor, or how to use Stasis or how incredibly broken it is?

[AK404]

Ah, found it.

What to give your sniper team: the M-29 is death in the hands of your squadmates.

http://social.biowar...5540]discussion about sniper teams[/url]

Modifié par AK404, 12 mai 2011 - 07:03 .

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Lol at Liara being useless... That claim simply has no root in reason. Same with any notion that Thane is uselss on insanity or that Garrus sucks b/c he's squishy... Also the idea that just because Miranda is useful all the time means that she is the *best* person to take all the time, and that somehow Shep's 3-man squad only has room for 1 squaddie.

Thane is the guy you take when Collectors are coming and *you need* a big gun. I think AK404 summed it up quite nicely. Thane has Warp. Sure, Miranda has Warp - but Thane has an Incisor. Thane also has an instacast Throw Field, so he can instakill hordes of Husks. Thane is a beast at killing other biotics (ie: Collectors).

Garrus is basically Thane's counterpart against Blue Suns and Geth. If you need something dead that's big, got massive shields and armor, Garrus is your man. Area Overload - a hugely versatile power - kills any shields, stuns any synthetics, overheats any guns and blows up any bombs bombs that come your way. Yeah, Miranda's got that, but Garrus has an Incisor - which means he kills very very hard. He's also got Squad AP Ammo, so he can buff the whole squad's guns quite nicely.

Liara... Wow, where do I even start? She has Warp. She has Singularity. She has Stasis. All instacast... Basically all the things I'd want on my AdeptShep... Yeah, that Liara sure exudes weakness alright...

As for Miranda, I think it was summed up quite nicely in the Why Miranda? thread that she's the ultimate generalist (actually, Liara kinda competes with her for that). Miri's got something for absolutely everything, but she lacks the straight-up punch of a specialist. Thane and Garrus are among those specialsts, so I find it very ironic that these guys are being denegrated to the extent they are in this thread.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 12 mai 2011 - 07:46 .

[PrinceLionheart]

Legion is just an out right beast with the Widow, so yes I tend to bring him or Thane along with me.

[PrinceLionheart]

Legion is just an out right beast with the Widow, so yes I tend to bring him or Thane along with me.

[AK404]

The problem with Legion is that he has one skill that's useful in all combat situations, and it has a fairly long cooldown. Worse, he needs to drop three points into AI hacking (a situational talent that's already redundant with the combat drone), which means he can cap out one other talent. I'm always capping his drone and passive, which means his loyalty talent (which isn't all that great to begin with) never gets fully developed.

On missions with geth or synthetics, he's a beast. But if you're talking Collectors or organics? Not so much.

Modifié par AK404, 12 mai 2011 - 09:37 .

[naledgeborn]

AK404 wrote...

The problem with Legion is that he has one skill that's useful in all combat situations, and it has a fairly long cooldown. Worse, he needs to drop three points into AI hacking (a situational talent that's already redundant with the combat drone), which means he can cap out one other talent. I'm always capping his drone and passive, which means his loyalty talent (which isn't all that great to begin with) never gets fully developed.

On missions with geth or synthetics, he's a beast. But if you're talking Collectors or organics? Not so much.

I skip Legion's Combat Drone. I max Hacking to Area version and I max GSB so that he can tank better on top of his already prodigious shielding. I think he end's up with 1000 shields with HGSB up and it recovers often because he's using the Widow. Legion is a damn decent damage dealing tank. Holy aliterations Batman!

[rubyreader]

naledgeborn wrote...

AK404 wrote...

The problem with Legion is that he has one skill that's useful in all combat situations, and it has a fairly long cooldown. Worse, he needs to drop three points into AI hacking (a situational talent that's already redundant with the combat drone), which means he can cap out one other talent. I'm always capping his drone and passive, which means his loyalty talent (which isn't all that great to begin with) never gets fully developed.

On missions with geth or synthetics, he's a beast. But if you're talking Collectors or organics? Not so much.

I skip Legion's Combat Drone. I max Hacking to Area version and I max GSB so that he can tank better on top of his already prodigious shielding. I think he end's up with 1000 shields with HGSB up and it recovers often because he's using the Widow. Legion is a damn decent damage dealing tank. Holy aliterations Batman!

I would have ended with dealer there to get the max combo BONUS!

[Locutus_of_BORG]

^Yeah, I skip Legion's Drone as well, as squaddie Drones have too long a cooldown. I max out his other powers instead.

I also agree that apart from being a pure beatstick, Legion is really only good vs. synthetics. However, I always take him and another sniper to take down the Oculus, and man can we pwn that thing.

[jamesp81]

I find that Garrus is quite deadly with the Mantis. Also, Garrus, Thane, and Zaeed do pretty awesome damage with the Incisor.

I think, numbers wise, they do best with the Incisor, but I tend to role play my weapon loadouts. The Mantis seems like the sort of rifle Garrus and Zaeed would use, while the Incisor seems to fit Thane's personality.

[jamesp81]

Black Raptor wrote...

lazuli wrote...

Black Raptor wrote...
Just to reiterate, Thane is statistically one of the worst squad members. Zaeed and Legion are much better snipers, throw is useless, shredder ammo is useless and if you want warp, just take Miranda (the best squaddy btw) 

This is simply not true.  Yeah, Shredder Ammo is pretty awful.  But you only get 30 squad points with Thane anyways, so spend them on this three abilities that matter: Throw, Warp, and his passive.  If you think Throw is useless on anything above Veteran then perhaps you haven't discovered just how quickly defenses can be stripped.  Thane's Throw Field (thanks to the LotSB re-spec) nets kills reliably on the DCS mission for me on Insanity.  And Warp's effectiveness speaks for itself on all difficulty levels.

I would rank Thane as "statistically" one of the best squad members, tied with Garrus and Zaeed and right behind Miranda and Liara.

Whaaa?  Perhaps you haven't realised how quickly health is stripped. Honestly, the only thing that matters is getting their defences down, then any enemy is as good as dead. Powers that damage health are practically useless because there is never more than 1 enemy without some sort of defence at any one time, and that enemy is always going to be the weakest and least threatening. 

Warp is good yes, but Miranda has warp. She is statistically the best squad member and buffs other squaddies. Miranda>Thane in all circumstances and if you have Miranda there is no point taking Thane along as any additional perks he has are already covered better by other squad members. 

Also, as much as it pains me to say it, Garrus has too little health to be all that useful, and his powers and weapons (like Thane) are covered better by squaddies such as Zaeed and Legion. Liara, like all biotic specialists, is one of the worst as biotics other than warp (which Miranda has) are useless against anything other than health, and that is the least important defence. 

Disagree on Throw.  I found it quite useful, for example, on the platform fight just before the human reaper battle on the collector base.  Strip an enemy's barrier, and then nail him with a throw to knock him off the ledge.  Easy, effective, and rather entertaining.

[AK404]

Yeah, Throw is very OP in the Collector Base, especially when you need to get rid of potential Harbingers quickly.

As for the Incisor on Garrus...it does match his armor.

[DeadLetterBox]

AK404 wrote...

Yeah, Throw is very OP in the Collector Base, especially when you need to get rid of potential Harbingers quickly.

As for the Incisor on Garrus...it does match his armor.

Throw may not be super-powerful, but it works great on platforms and it recharges very quickly.  Throw field totally saves me if I let myself get flanked by husks or fenris mechs.  Also, the sound of Eclipse mercs screaming to their doom as they get tossed off Dantius Towers is pretty.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Throw is actually quite powerful, esp. at lvl4. It can instakill in any environment that has a decent range of elevation. However, it's probably the most spectacular on the Collector/Reaper missions because those generally feature dense clusters of enemies in tight spaces surrounded by bottomless pits.

[Ahglock]

lazuli wrote...



Garrus has fairly standard health for a squadmate.  His powers are in fact not better covered by other squadmates as he has the potential for the highest damage Overload of all squadmates, to say nothing of the additional appeal his Incisor provides.  Zaeed has Squad Disruptor Ammo, which is arguably better than Overload in some respects (though, like with Thane and Miranda vs. Collectors, why not use both?).  But Legion?  Legion's build is probably the worst of any squadmate.  He has the Widow going for him.  And with a Sentinel Shepard recharging his Drones, Legion goes from being terrible to downright amazing.  Beyond that, though, his cooldowns are just too long and his powers just too unappealing to get much use out of him.

I am not saying Garrus is bad or anything, but I think too much weight is put into his boosted damge with powers.  Yeah his overload hits harder than any other squadmate, that is somewhat useful.  But really since overload maxed will strip defenses from 90% of all shielded enemies without it, overall it is a very minor benefit. As for Legion, I hate his personality but on geth missions he is cool.  Admittedly that means only his LM after I gain him, but AI hacking is really cool as a crowd control.  

Really I think too much weight is put into specific squadmates.  Overall only power based classes on hardcore/insanity need to put any thought into squadmates and for them the Adept is the one who needs it the most.  For the Adept it is all about defense stripping and setting up warp bombs.  Who does what doesn't really matter, a 15% faster here or whatever is cool but not that big of a deal.  Do they have a way to strip defenses, cool.  Can they contribute to a warp bomb cool.  That is all I need to know.  Everything past that is just personal preference since the mechanical benefits are small enough not to realy matter.  

For other classes if you do decide to think it through again it is very similar, do you want warp bombs take any of these X people, do you want to strip defenses these X are fine, CC these X work fine, do you want guns and ammo powers these X work fine.  The differences in each group are farily minor.

[naledgeborn]

I think I figured out why Garrus dies more often than other squad members. He's f*cking tall. If you put him behind low cover he gets shot anyway. You have to be careful when assigning Garrus to cover or he might as well be out in the open as a bullet sponge.

[DollarsAtStarNumber]

I generally try to carry one with me most of the time, but It ultimately comes down to the situation. Garrus is amazing when it comes to stripping down protections. And the Automatic one point in AP Ammo covers the weapon damage disadvantage compared to Zaeed and Thane.

Thane is a beast on Veteran or lower, but on Hardcore and Insanity he leaves something to be desired. Warp is always nice but on harder difficulties I'd rather pick up another Sniper and Miranda due to the Cerberus Leader passive.

Zaeed has more stopping power then Garrus but lacks the utility. Inferno Grenade isn't effective on Synthetics and shares concussive shot with Garrus. Worth noting though he is the only Squadmate with Disruptor Ammo.

Legion as awesome as he is, has plenty of CC which is nice but unfortuntely does little on harder difficulties.

[RunicDragons]

 Garrus + Sniper = The enemy has no chance.