384 réponses à ce sujet

[jamesp81]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

I have not lost proportionality.  This is merely your mistaken opinion.  Treason is a capital offense.  Period.

Only by culture. A capital offense is one in which the death penalty is applied: a culture without the death penalty (such as, for example, various European nations) do not conclude treason as a capital offense because they have no capital offenses.

Treason itself is a concept that varies by culture as well. The United States has a specific legal definition: other states have used it more or less freely in other terms. The Quarians have another in which deliberate intent isn't even a requirement. The cultural conceptions, and weight, varies, as does the consequences thereof. Treason is not 'a capital offense, period.' It's whatever level of offense a society deems it as.

Furthermore, a show trial held to advance political agendas under color of law can not, in any way, be considered due process.  Banana republic comparison stands.  They were a bit more civilized in their tyranny than most dictators, but it was still a show trial worthy of the same.

This is horrific historical nearsightedness at it's worst: the worst banana republics were just as often to forgo any sort of trial at all, while there would be no variation from the prior intent of conviction. The fact that there was a trial, and the fact that it was not pre-concluded against Tali from the start, are both incredibly significant distinctions from the worst banana republics.

As for the Quarians liberating Earth, how are they going to do that?  The Migrant Fleet is largely composed of old, worn out tramp freighters and whatever fourth hand ships the Quarians could beg, borrow, or buy.  It is not a viable combat force; it's a defensive huddle that's totally unfit for combat.  It's barely fit for habitation.  The whole preventing war between the Quarians and the Geth situation is about securing Geth assistance, since they do have a proper fleet.

Quantity is a quality, and this ignores all aspects and utility of logistical lift.

The Quarian Admiralty board perpetrated a pretty significant crime against one of its own people.  That is not in doubt.  They're ranking pretty high on my **** list, and for good reason.

It was hardly a significant crime to the greater whole, nor is it outweighed by far more serious injustices Shepard is both party and part of... such as the entire Spectre system.

The Migrant Fleet cannot provide space lift capacity.  They are already overcrowded.

The very best I can say about the admiralty board's actions are to call it 'malicious prosecution'.  Normally I would if the charge was something less than treason.  People go to prison for this, and they should.  But, since Quarians can't afford the space for prisoners, perhaps old Koris himself shoud be exiled.  If the Quarian equivalent of the justice department did that, I'd be happy to let him wallow in his misery rather than blow him out an airlock.

If the Quarian justice establishment is simply too weak to deal with a ****up like Koris, I'll be happy to take the trash out for them.

Modifié par jamesp81, 11 mai 2011 - 03:47 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I've never understood how they expect to win a war against the same machine race that drove them away in the first place, when their numbers were in the billions, not millions.

Two main avenues: advances in cyberwarfare, and the fact that their entire societal/civilizational infrastructure (economic, production, military) isn't rebelling against them.

[Dean_the_Young]

jamesp81 wrote...
The Migrant Fleet cannot provide space lift capacity.  They are already overcrowded.

This is like saying a cargo ship can not carry anything because it currently has cargo. The solution is elementary.

The very best I can say about the admiralty board's actions are to call it 'malicious prosecution'.  Normally I would if the charge was something less than treason.  People go to prison for this, and they should.  But, since Quarians can't afford the space for prisoners, perhaps old Koris himself shoud be exiled.  If the Quarian equivalent of the justice department did that, I'd be happy to let him wallow in his misery rather than blow him out an airlock.

Yes, let's magnanimously no murder someone who hasn't come close to murdering someone. Very progressive of you.

[Someone With Mass]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Two main avenues: advances in cyberwarfare, and the fact that their entire societal/civilizational infrastructure (economic, production, military) isn't rebelling against them.

They still managed to reduce a whole race that was spread out among several solar systems to the equivalent of a medium populated country.

And unless we can hit the whole geth network at once (which is something I find both laughable and improbable) they're just going to adapt to whatever cyber weapon we throw at them.

[Someone With Mass]

ReallyRue wrote...

Koris. His solution seems to make the most sense, especially in light of the Reapers showing up.

What was that again? He was fighting for peace, right?

[CroGamer002]

Arcian wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Opinions, opinions everywhere.

Not opinons, facts.

Listen, you're an ignorant douchebag who violates common sense on an hourly basis and pulls baseless arguments out of your posterior like they were post-its, so I'm gonna go right ahead and not senselessly argue with you for 12 hours and make you feel good about yourself for inciting rage on the internet. I'll laugh when it turns out you're wrong in ME3, but that's about it.

If that's supposed to be representative of you, indeed it doesn't seem you give a damn but it does make you look like an idiot. Pretty sure that's not what you're trying to go with, despite your text, but then you did choose the picture. Maybe there's a double-fake irony in there?

No, just Charlie Sheen being himself. While not giving a damn.

And winning.

[Dean_the_Young]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Two main avenues: advances in cyberwarfare, and the fact that their entire societal/civilizational infrastructure (economic, production, military) isn't rebelling against them.

They still managed to reduce a whole race that was spread out among several solar systems to the equivalent of a medium populated country.

The geth were able to win not least because the Geth were
Quarian society's means of doing everything. The Geth were the core of
the Quarian military, the Geth were the mean of Quarian industry, and
the Geth were integrated at every layer of Quarian society. There was no
external threat that established Quarian civilization was faced with: Quarian civilization effectively went into a civil war with itself, with its own means turned against itself. Quarians were across several solar systems, but so were the Geth, because the Geth were taken and used by the Quarians everywhere the Quarians were.

And unless we can hit the whole geth network at once (which is something I find both laughable and improbable) they're just going to adapt to whatever cyber weapon we throw at them.

Besides not being necessarily true*, you don't need to affect all geth to gain a decisive advantage.

*Cyberwarfare viruses are analogous to bullets: mallicious coding is easy to produce in quantity, and not as easy to defend against. But this is a separate conversation, and one that ignores the thematic-lore of the Geth.

Geth ability to react to cyber-weapons has been dependent not on prevention/firewalls, but on the achival-refreshing that mitigates the duration of hacks. Or, rephrased, Geth are not much harder to hack than anything else, they just re-upload the correct programming quite often. But once you circumvent that defense, whether by taking advantage of the programming as is so there is nothing to 'fix' (Overlord), change the fundamental processes (Heretic Virus), or find some breakthrough to take advantage/mitigate the auto-refresher (the Alarai), Geth can be fundamentally compromised.

[jamesp81]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
The Migrant Fleet cannot provide space lift capacity.  They are already overcrowded.

This is like saying a cargo ship can not carry anything because it currently has cargo. The solution is elementary.

The very best I can say about the admiralty board's actions are to call it 'malicious prosecution'.  Normally I would if the charge was something less than treason.  People go to prison for this, and they should.  But, since Quarians can't afford the space for prisoners, perhaps old Koris himself shoud be exiled.  If the Quarian equivalent of the justice department did that, I'd be happy to let him wallow in his misery rather than blow him out an airlock.

Yes, let's magnanimously no murder someone who hasn't come close to murdering someone. Very progressive of you.

Another point about the migrant fleet.

The Quantity is a Quality all its own is not a good strategy.

The Chinese tried that against the US in the Korean War.  Worked OK for a few months.  In the end, it worked very, very poorly.  The phrase 'horrendous casualties' doesn't even really begin to cut it.  It taught the US a painful lesson; we will always be outnumbered, so deal with it.  So we did.  The Battle of 73 Easting in the 1991 Persian Gulf War showed the fruit of that effort.  Over 80 Iraqi tanks destroyed in a fierce armored battle with no American or British tanks destroyed.

Quality > Quantity.  Always.  Zerg rushing a sophisticated enemy is cruise control to defeat.

The Migrant Fleet would provide little more than target practice for the Reapers.

[jamesp81]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Yes, let's magnanimously no murder someone who hasn't come close to murdering someone. Very progressive of you.

I thought so

But putting a criminal to death for his actions isn't usually labeled murder.

[Dean_the_Young]

jamesp81 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Yes, let's magnanimously no murder someone who hasn't come close to murdering someone. Very progressive of you.

I thought so

But putting a criminal to death for his actions isn't usually labeled murder.

When it isn't a crime warranting that sort of punishment? Yes. Yes it is.

[jamesp81]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Yes, let's magnanimously no murder someone who hasn't come close to murdering someone. Very progressive of you.

I thought so

But putting a criminal to death for his actions isn't usually labeled murder.

When it isn't a crime warranting that sort of punishment? Yes. Yes it is.

Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.  Koris attempted to unjustly inflict his society's highest punishment against an innocent woman.

I am willing to inflict my society's highest punishment against him for doing it

But none of that is going to happen in ME3 anyway.  ME3 is going to be side with 1) Han'Gerrell, 2) Daro'Xen, 3) Zaal'Koris, or 4) the Geth.

I'll probably side with either Koris or the Geth.  I don't want anything tying up that big Geth armada in some pointless war when I need them to fry the bigger fish on my radar anyway.

Edit:

Probably side with Koris because I like Tali and want her to be happy.  Her people decimated by Geth = not happy.  I'd probably still space Koris if I am given the option to, but I don't see that happening.

Modifié par jamesp81, 11 mai 2011 - 04:18 .

[Someone With Mass]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The geth were able to win not least because the Geth were
Quarian society's means of doing everything. The Geth were the core of
the Quarian military, the Geth were the mean of Quarian industry, and
the Geth were integrated at every layer of Quarian society. There was no
external threat that established Quarian civilization was faced with: Quarian civilization effectively went into a civil war with itself, with its own means turned against itself. Quarians were across several solar systems, but so were the Geth, because the Geth were taken and used by the Quarians everywhere the Quarians were.

Still, I think there are more than enough geth beyond the veil to keep the Migrant Fleet at bay.

[jamesp81]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The geth were able to win not least because the Geth were
Quarian society's means of doing everything. The Geth were the core of
the Quarian military, the Geth were the mean of Quarian industry, and
the Geth were integrated at every layer of Quarian society. There was no
external threat that established Quarian civilization was faced with: Quarian civilization effectively went into a civil war with itself, with its own means turned against itself. Quarians were across several solar systems, but so were the Geth, because the Geth were taken and used by the Quarians everywhere the Quarians were.

Still, I think there are more than enough geth beyond the veil to keep the Migrant Fleet at bay.

The Migrant Fleet doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning a war against anyone outside of pirates.

The only war scenario with a chance of success is Daro'Xen's, if she could actually deliver on the whole 'control the Geth' thing.  I don't think she can, but if, hypothetically, she could, this 'war' scenario would work.

A conventional attack by the Migrant Fleet on the Geth only ends one way.

[Dean_the_Young]

jamesp81 wrote...

Another point about the migrant fleet.

The Quantity is a Quality all its own is not a good strategy.

The Chinese tried that against the US in the Korean War.  Worked OK for a few months.  In the end, it worked very, very poorly.  The phrase 'horrendous casualties' doesn't even really begin to cut it.  It taught the US a painful lesson; we will always be outnumbered, so deal with it.  So we did.  The Battle of 73 Easting in the 1991 Persian Gulf War showed the fruit of that effort.  Over 80 Iraqi tanks destroyed in a fierce armored battle with no American or British tanks destroyed.

Quality > Quantity.  Always.  Zerg rushing a sophisticated enemy is cruise control to defeat.

The Migrant Fleet would provide little more than target practice for the Reapers.

Your grasp of selective historical interpretation astounds me, I assure you. I will henceforth ignore all other contrary examples of military history, and throw out years of military training at the feet of this wisdom.


But no, seriously. Technological is a force multiplier, but quality alone doesn't decide wars or battles, any more than numbers. It's one of many factors, and for every case of the few good triumphing over a greater number, you cn also find a number of cases in which numbers made up for or even surpassed a quality gap. The Eastern Front in WW2 is a textbook case: the American civil war is another. Cases of significantly low-tech foes matching or sending high-tech foes away are legion in and of themselves: Vietnam and the Soviet Afghanistan are two such, while even the Conquistadores succeded not least because they raised their own local armies to help them.

[Dean_the_Young]

jamesp81 wrote...

Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.  Koris attempted to unjustly inflict his society's highest punishment against an innocent woman.

I am willing to inflict my society's highest punishment against him for doing it

So... murder worthy of a banana republic. Yeah.

Probably side with Koris because I like Tali and want her to be happy.  Her people decimated by Geth = not happy.  I'd probably still space Koris if I am given the option to, but I don't see that happening.

I never would have guessed.

[Silrian]

jamesp81 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The geth were able to win not least because the Geth were
Quarian society's means of doing everything. The Geth were the core of
the Quarian military, the Geth were the mean of Quarian industry, and
the Geth were integrated at every layer of Quarian society. There was no
external threat that established Quarian civilization was faced with: Quarian civilization effectively went into a civil war with itself, with its own means turned against itself. Quarians were across several solar systems, but so were the Geth, because the Geth were taken and used by the Quarians everywhere the Quarians were.

Still, I think there are more than enough geth beyond the veil to keep the Migrant Fleet at bay.

The Migrant Fleet doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning a war against anyone outside of pirates.

The only war scenario with a chance of success is Daro'Xen's, if she could actually deliver on the whole 'control the Geth' thing.  I don't think she can, but if, hypothetically, she could, this 'war' scenario would work.

A conventional attack by the Migrant Fleet on the Geth only ends one way.

Then why is the Illusive Man afraid of the Migrant Fleet? He may be illusive, but he's not dumb. The Geth might be more powerful then the Quarians as it stands at the end of ME2, but I don't think we should underestimate the biggest armada of ships in the galaxy. 

[Someone With Mass]

Silrian wrote...
Then why is the Illusive Man afraid of the Migrant Fleet? He may be illusive, but he's not dumb. The Geth might be more powerful then the Quarians as it stands at the end of ME2, but I don't think we should underestimate the biggest armada of ships in the galaxy. 

He isn't afraid of them. He's curious about their technology that made it possible for them to survive this long against the odds. That's why he tried to infiltrate the fleet in the first place.

[Silrian]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Silrian wrote...
Then why is the Illusive Man afraid of the Migrant Fleet? He may be illusive, but he's not dumb. The Geth might be more powerful then the Quarians as it stands at the end of ME2, but I don't think we should underestimate the biggest armada of ships in the galaxy. 

He isn't afraid of them. He's curious about their technology that made it possible for them to survive this long against the odds. That's why he tried to infiltrate the fleet in the first place.

TIM doesn't trust them for effectively having the largest armada of ships in the galaxy. That to me is enough of an indicator that the Quarians are at the very least a force to be reckoned with. But hey maybe I'm wrong and their basically the galaxies biggest nerd-horde. Personally I think their military strength is being underrated.

[kiti.the.great]

Quarians may have shiiitload of those old rust-buckets, but I don't think they will be any useful in epic space battles. Guess why.

[ZoSo159]

I'll keep the geth until the reapers are gone. I have no use for a race of robots who could think for themselves. After the reaper invation I am going to rip Qwib Qwib's hemit off and punch his face. The geth do not deserve squat! I will help them reclaim their homeworld just to make them stop bickering.

[Someone With Mass]

Silrian wrote...
TIM doesn't trust them for effectively having the largest armada of ships in the galaxy. That to me is enough of an indicator that the Quarians are at the very least a force to be reckoned with. But hey maybe I'm wrong and their basically the galaxies biggest nerd-horde. Personally I think their military strength is being underrated.

Perhaps. Though, I think they wouldn't have fled if they could've taken back their worlds by force in the first place.

[Dean_the_Young]

Time to reorganize, re-adjust, and discover new ways to match the Geth would enable victory later when it wasn't present sooner.

[kiti.the.great]

I thought it was almost clearly stated in Ascension that Migrant Fleet, even with their numbers, is not able to survive space battle.

[Silrian]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Silrian wrote...
TIM doesn't trust them for effectively having the largest armada of ships in the galaxy. That to me is enough of an indicator that the Quarians are at the very least a force to be reckoned with. But hey maybe I'm wrong and their basically the galaxies biggest nerd-horde. Personally I think their military strength is being underrated.

Perhaps. Though, I think they wouldn't have fled if they could've taken back their worlds by force in the first place.

Wasn't that like 300 years ago? I think the Quarians haven't sit still. If they really were so outmatched by the Geth I don't think any admiral would propose retaking the home world; that would just be plain stupid. In fact, if the Quarian's didn't have any chance against the Geth at all, this entire discussion is pointless, because two of the three options would be unrealistic. 

[Kusy]

Well... I think I'm with the Geth here, not with the Admirals lol... even tho I love Quarians.

Modifié par Mr.Kusy, 11 mai 2011 - 05:54 .