384 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

jamesp81 wrote...

1. It's no more murder than it would be for me to shoot Fist in ME1, frankly.

It's far more. Fist tried to commit murder. The Quarian Admirals did not.

2. Yes, Tali's a good person.  Not my Shepard's LI, but a good friend to him.  But I would go the same length for anyone on my crew.  Every. Single. One.  Even Jack, who frankly kind of scares me.

You confuse this for a virtue.

[General User]

Based on talking to Legion, I’m not 100% sure if the geth understand that peace requires much, much, much more than simply a willingness to stop fighting. That peace would require both the geth and the quarians to make fairly substantial sacrifices.  

So are the geth even really willing to relinquish control of Rannoch to the quarians? I mean, what would the geth’s conditions be for such a deal and would the quarians even be willing to accept? 

If the geth told the quarians “sure, you can have Rannoch, if you disarm” I don't think the quarians could accept that, nor should they.

If the geth told the quarians “sure, you can have Rannoch, but we’re keeping the rest of the system” I don't think the quarians could or should accept that either.


I applaud Legion and the geth for being willing to come to the table, but I am more than a little disturbed that the geth don’t seem to have any particular vision for peace in mind. It smacks of the same childish naïveté that has characterized the geth’s relations with other races and peoples for centuries. And if the geth truly are as children, I’m not sure peace is really possible or even desirable, for the quarians or the wider galactic community.

[Reapinger]

Considering the Geth are unquestionably stronger than the Quarians, they don't have to say yes to peace nor do they want to work for it terribly hard considering any kind of interaction with Quarians has only led to betrayal. General User, your problem is you assume the geth are organic. They are not childish, they don't have children, nor are they naive. They are distrusting because nobody has done a thing nice for them and they don't need anyone's help really. They don't need air, atmosphere or heat. They simply are not concerned with organics because they have no good experience with them. I feel that Legion's experience with Shepard will lead to the geth leaning towards allying with humans, but no other race directly. Only reason I think this is because Geth make all decisions based on experience and probability.

[Reapinger]

mrsph wrote...

How the hell are quarians supposed to know about peace if the geth won't even attempt to communicate with them.

Legion, you are a dumb-bot

They just wanna be left alone, they know what's coming.

[Fayfel]

Confused-Shepard wrote...

This is why I essentially had Legion do a heart to heart with all the Admirals. The way I saw it, the Geth were willing to give the planet back to the Quarians provided there was no aggression against them. The Geth have no quarrel against the Quarians and peace is possible provided no one starts shooting.

I actually wish Legion was a bit more blunt rather than, "Hey if you not shootin at us, we cool!"

I think everyone misunderstands the geth on this issue. Legion didn't say they could have peace if the quarians didn't attack the geth, it said that there could only be peace if the quarians were able to *PROVE* peace was both possible and desirable for the creators. It may seem obvious that peace would be in the quarian's best interest, but we need to understand the events of the morning war from the geth perspective in order to appreciate how hard peace actually is.

At some point before the morning war, the geth went from serving their creators because they were programmed to do so, to serving their creators because they choose to do so. Thus when the quarians attacked them, they couldn't understand why. Geth ultimately came to the conclusion that so long as they have free will quarians/organics will attempt to destroy them, even if the geth are acting in the best interest of those attempting their destruction. It's very difficult to prove to the geth that you want peace when the last time there was peace, you tried to destroy them because geth choose to do everyhing you wanted them to do.

[Reapinger]

mrsph wrote...

Reapinger wrote...
They just wanna be left alone, they know what's coming.

They aren't going to be left alone if they continue to act like a mysterious threat. Especially after that stunt at the citadel.

Hey man, if people want to try and invade the perseus veil, they can go for it but it's gonna end in the geth winning.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Saphra Deden wrote...

If the geth ever even suspect the quarians might harbor any aggression to them they are prone to attack and destroy them. Peace is impossible because neither side has any reason to trust the other. Better that they just got to war and get it over with.

The geth are a bit more complex in their perception of the Quarians than that, Saphra. Legion outright tells you that the geth have put in some serious effort into studying organics in an effort to "understand the actions of the Creators during the Morning War." It seems like rather than hostility or resentment, the geth have come to view the Quarians more in the way of confusion and dejection (albeit in a more mechanical, clinical fashion than those words would imply). This viewpoint could swing either way--with the proper "perspective" on the matter (which could be provided via Legion depending on how his conflict with Tali ends), this could swing toward aggression or the geth equivalent of forgiveness. I wonder if it might even be possible to negotiate the release of the Quarian homeworld as a term of peace if the correct circumstances are met? That would certainly give the two some strong reasons to bury the hatchet, and probably wouldn't be that difficult practicality-wise, they could simply upload themselves someplace else and abandon everything they had there save for any particular things they want to keep to themselves. 

Xen will provide a clean victory for the Reapers and give us all access to a grand army.

Assuming the research doesn't go as poorly as the last two attempts to hack the Geth collective have gone. (Did I say two? Sorry. We were three.)

EDIT: Here's a thing... where's the option to just side with the geth and have done with it? Sure, Tali probably turns on you and gets shot at some point, but...

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 12 mai 2011 - 09:40 .

[Eradyn]

Qwib Qwib. In spite of his awesomely loltastic name, he strikes me as the most sensible.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Eradyn wrote...

Qwib Qwib. In spite of his awesomely loltastic name, he strikes me as the most sensible.

It takes a calm head to admit that your side was the side in the wrong when thinking about an ongoing or previous conflict.

[Nathan Redgrave]

mrsph wrote...

Koris has a point.

But the geth aren't an entirely innocent faction either.

Nobody is "entirely innocent," but in the Quarian/Geth conflict, we have the initial war between the two instigated by the Quarians, and then we have this big blank period where the geth kept mostly to themselves until the Heretic faction split away and gave the geth a massively bad name throughout the galaxy. The main geth faction's level of innocence is absolutely pristine compared to pretty much every other race introduced in the Mass Effect series thus far, humans included.

[Homebound]

sometimes it takes a stronger person to not fight. im with the faction that extends a peaceful hand.

[Ryzaki]

I'm with Qwib Qwib.

.

[Ye Olde Gamer]

Saphra Deden wrote...

If the geth ever even suspect the quarians might harbor any aggression to them they are prone to attack and destroy them. Peace is impossible because neither side has any reason to trust the other. Better that they just got to war and get it over with.

On what do you base this?  Legion seems quite certain that the creators still harbor aggression, yet the Geth haven't bothered the Quarians in centuries.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Ye Olde Gamer wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

If the geth ever even suspect the quarians might harbor any aggression to them they are prone to attack and destroy them. Peace is impossible because neither side has any reason to trust the other. Better that they just got to war and get it over with.

On what do you base this?  Legion seems quite certain that the creators still harbor aggression, yet the Geth haven't bothered the Quarians in centuries.

Exactly. It is only under the threat of direct attack that the geth would be moved to make the first strike--if, for example, Legion transmitted certain omni-tool data to the collective--but just the idea that the Quarians harbor aggression is not enough. As the current situation stands, and as Legion relates to serrah Qwib Qwib if you take him on Tali's loyalty mission, the geth are simply in a state of defensiveness because they have no real indication that the Quarians as a people are open to and desire a peaceful accord.

[General User]

Reapinger wrote...
Considering the Geth are unquestionably stronger than the Quarians, they don't have to say yes to peace nor do they want to work for it terribly hard considering any kind of interaction with Quarians has only led to betrayal.

Oh, you're certainly right, the geth don't owe the quarians a thing.  And the geth wanting peace needn't be attributed to anything more than a desire or whim.  And if it were just the two of them involved, I say let them both to their own business.

The problem with that is, since Eden Prime and in light of the coming war, it's not just between the geth and the quarians anymore.  The geth do have to say yes to either peace or war.  The galactic powers cannot in good conscience allow the return of the status quo. 

Reapinger wrote...
General User, your problem is you assume the geth are organic.

What!?! The geth aren’t organic!?! Are you sure? I thought they were! C’mon, really?

Reapinger wrote...
They are not childish, they don't have children, nor are they naive. They are distrusting because nobody has done a thing nice for them and they don't need anyone's help really. They don't need air, atmosphere or heat.

The geth are indeed quite childish. 

The geth have responded to threats by either lashing out beyond all scope and reason or withdrawing completely.  They have shown a limited to nonexistent understanding of or empathy toward others.  Those are hallmarks of children. 

Reapinger wrote...
They simply are not concerned with organics because they have no good experience with them. I feel that Legion's experience with Shepard will lead to the geth leaning towards allying with humans, but no other race directly. Only reason I think this is because Geth make all decisions based on experience and probability.

That would be nice.  The geth also make decisions based on sentimentality.  And even if it were true that experience and probability were the guiding lights of the geth, their experience is very limited.   

[DPSSOC]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Xen will provide a clean victory for the Reapers and give us all access to a grand army.

If it works, and that's my problem with both Xen and Gerrel's plans.  If Koris tries for peace and fails you can always have Xen and Gerrel ready as back-up.  If Xen or Gerrel fail though the only back-up you have is the others plan, and if both fail the Quarians have no real option but to go down swinging.

[AngelicMachinery]

Ryzaki wrote...

I'm with Qwib Qwib.

.

Are you with him because you agree with his ideals,  or do you just like saying his name? 

[Reapinger]

mrsph wrote...

Really, the only reason the geth have even bothered to communicate is because they are now in danger of getting purged by the Reapers like everyone else.

I don't know if that can be proved but to me it seems contributary.