384 réponses à ce sujet

[Reapinger]

Okie doke, General User. You are right about their actions being childish in our eyes. I was just trying to say from the perspective of the Geth, they are nothing but logical and I can't entirely blame them for being so defensive!

[JoeClose]

I'm going to sacrifice the quarians if at all possible in ME3, I don't like them. They're a race of bums who ride around star systems creating resource problems wherever they go.

[V-rex]

I vote for Admiral Koris Qwib Qwib. He's the only one who seems to actually have a brain in this circumstance and is the only one who wants to try something that won't result in his entire race's extinction.
Plus he's not afraid to admit the Quarians made mistakes as well, rather than do what so many others do and go into denial to the point of the universe collapsing in on itself.

I side with Koris. He's noble, he's got the right idea, he knows peace is always preferrable to war, he's the least likely to bring great doom to his entire race and he's honest with himself.

Vote Qwib Qwib in the next election!!

[Ye Olde Gamer]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Ye Olde Gamer wrote...

On what do you base this?  Legion seems quite certain that the creators still harbor aggression, yet the Geth haven't bothered the Quarians in centuries.

Some quarians harbor agression and others harbor friendship. In 300 years neither the quarians nor any other organic race has bothered the geth in any aggressive or vindictive way. The geth in this time have made no effort to show that they are friendly, have activiley murdered organic crews sent as olive branches, and to top it all off, they let their brethren attempt genocide.

Why is it you are so focused on this from the geth POV without looking at the big picture?

Where is the geth version of Zaal K'oris? There isn't one. The geth never bother to send a message to the quarians that "we are peaceful and on you side". K'oris does though. That's a hell of a lot more than any geth has done.

We've had far more direct interaction with the quarians (and possibly indirect action, it's unclear when the Geth extra-net monitoring began) than the Geth have, and the only quarian we've met who harbors friendship is Zaal'Koris vas Qwib Qwib.  Not only is his not a dominant opinion, it's systematically derided by most of the other quarians we meet.  So I'm inclined to say that as an overwhelming rule, the quarians do harbor aggression.  And the Geth know it: Legion specifically mentions that as an impediment to forging a truce with the creators.

Furthermore, we know very little about the attempts to communicate with the Geth over the years.  You claim they "murdered organic crews sent as olive branches," but all we actually know is that any ships that ventured into Geth space were destroyed.  We have no idea if all, some, or none of those expeditions were sent in peace; certainly, some of the early quarian expeditions would have been willing to start a fight if they felt they could win.

As for the Geth equvilient of Qwib Qwib, it depends on what you mean.  If Legion is to be believed, the Geth have already chosen isolation over direct military action, so they're much closer to Qwib Qwib than they are to Xen or Gerrel.  But if you mean Geth actively looking for peace, then Legion is probably the closest they've come: it was specifically designed to initiate peaceful contact with an organic lifeform.  So congratulations: you've already met it. 
EDIT: Actually, Legion one-ups Qwib Qwib.  It apears to have the full support of the Geth, whereas Qwib Qwib can at best claim to represent a sizeable minority of the quarians.

Just to be clear, I think the Geth made a fundamental mistake when they decided that enforced isolation was a better plan than active attempts at communication leading to peaceful contact with other races.  But that just means the Geth made a mistake.  It doesn't mean the Geth are incapable of, nor uninterested in, peaceful coexistence.  Frankly, the rest of ME's races have made equally stupid decisions in their time.  Forget the heretics, our own inability to deal with the Reaper threat is practically a running gag at this point.  Or do I need to bust out my sarcastic air quotes? 

It's for all of these above reasons I support Xen. The geth are stupid and unfriendly to boot. That makes them dangerous so we need to just get rid of them.

The geth had 300 years to make peace and plenty of opportunities (the Council even took their side during the Morning War, for ****'s sake). The galaxy all but welcomed them with open arms. The geth refused, they murdered, they hid, and now they're making excuses. They have earned no good will and shall reap what they've sown.

When did the Council take their side?  According to the ME1 codex, the Geth are the reason AIs are illegal - and highly distrusted - these days.  What has the council ever done to support the Geth?  They failed to aid the quarians militarily, but failing to aid people militarily is SOP for the council no matter who the agressor is.

And frankly, you're placing an awful lot of faith in Xen's ability to control the Geth.  We've seen two separate attempts to control Geth thus far, and both ended in abject disaster.  Xen talks a big game, but she's shown zero proof that whatever she's planning will do anything, much less succeed where Overlord and Rael'Zorah failed. 

Even if we completely ignore the moral element of her plan, it has a serious credability gap of its own to overcome.

Modifié par Ye Olde Gamer, 13 mai 2011 - 04:46 .

[Ryzaki]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I'm with Qwib Qwib.

.

Are you with him because you agree with his ideals,  or do you just like saying his name? 

It can't be both? 

[Ye Olde Gamer]

Confounded double post...

Modifié par Ye Olde Gamer, 13 mai 2011 - 04:59 .

[Ye Olde Gamer]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Ye Olde Gamer wrote...

We've had far more direct interaction with the quarians (and possibly indirect action, it's unclear when the Geth extra-net monitoring began) than the Geth have...

That's the geths' fault.


K'oris is an important man and I'm positive he's not alone in his feelings. His actions at the trial are also light years ahead of anything the geth have ever done to foster peace.

We know plenty about the attempts to communciate with the geth via the novels, and we know the geth killed anyone who made any such attempts.

The geth have absolutely nobody to blame for the fear and distrust directed at them by the galaxy except for themselves.

I'm not arguing we're to blame for the Geth's isolation.  I'm saying that now that the Geth ARE talking to us, it might be a good time to push for peace rather than resort to all out war.  Just a thought.

As to the novels, I don't pay much attention to them; BioWare has a hard enough time maintaining continuity within a single game.  So I'll take your word that the Geth were hostile in them.  My point still stands.

Ye Old Gamer wrote...

When did the Council take their side?

So help me...

When the Council refused to aid the quariand during the Morning War and condemned their actions as genocide it was taking the side of the geth.

I don't recall any mention of genocide from the council.  I just recall them saying it was the quarian's own damn fault and sitting right out of it.  Which, as I said, is exactly how they've tried to handle the Earth-Batarian, Earth-Collector, Earth-Geth, and hell, even the Krogan-Everyone conflicts in the past. 

Ye Old Gamer wrote...

Even if we completely ignore the moral element of her plan, it has a serious credability gap of its own to overcome.

What credibility gap? We already have two working examples of technologies designed to the control the geth.

Yes, and those examples FAILED.  Spectacularly.  Rael'Zorah's experiement demonstrated that a bunch of reassembled geth could be made to kill a shipful of quarians.  Overlord convinced a shipful of geth to kill a colony full of humans. 

Hooray, the war is practically over...

Modifié par Ye Olde Gamer, 13 mai 2011 - 05:00 .

[DxWill10]

I was in favor of the Quarians wiping out the Geth. Then I talked to LEgion...

Do the Quarians know true geth are actually reasonable? If they can differentiate the different between geth and heretics, I don't see why they couldn't co-exist. After talking to Legion a few times though, I couldn't really stand by and let Xen try and make Geth slaves again.

[Confused-Shepard]

Amakiir wrote...

Confused-Shepard wrote...

This is why I essentially had Legion do a heart to heart with all the Admirals. The way I saw it, the Geth were willing to give the planet back to the Quarians provided there was no aggression against them. The Geth have no quarrel against the Quarians and peace is possible provided no one starts shooting.

I actually wish Legion was a bit more blunt rather than, "Hey if you not shootin at us, we cool!"

I think everyone misunderstands the geth on this issue. Legion didn't say they could have peace if the quarians didn't attack the geth, it said that there could only be peace if the quarians were able to *PROVE* peace was both possible and desirable for the creators. It may seem obvious that peace would be in the quarian's best interest, but we need to understand the events of the morning war from the geth perspective in order to appreciate how hard peace actually is.

At some point before the morning war, the geth went from serving their creators because they were programmed to do so, to serving their creators because they choose to do so. Thus when the quarians attacked them, they couldn't understand why. Geth ultimately came to the conclusion that so long as they have free will quarians/organics will attempt to destroy them, even if the geth are acting in the best interest of those attempting their destruction. It's very difficult to prove to the geth that you want peace when the last time there was peace, you tried to destroy them because geth choose to do everyhing you wanted them to do.

In that case either Legion will have to be convinced to have the Geth collective chat with the Quarians regarding peace or the Quarians have to send an envoy to the Geth collective essentially declaring that the creators mean no harm to the Geth and only want their help in defeating their Reapers and the homeworld

There was this really lovely fanfic where Shepard figures this out and essentially has Tali speak to the Geth and try and make peace with them.

The Geth also have to be told that unlike them Organics are individualistic and if one idiot tries to blow up a few Geth does not mean the Creators have turned on them, rather it was just one idiot doing it.

[Quole]

I never really understood why the True Geth didnt at least TRY to communicate with them or anyone for that matter. It really didnt help their case when the heretics were the only geth anyone ever encountered.

[Someone With Mass]

Quole wrote...

I never really understood why the True Geth didnt at least TRY to communicate with them or anyone for that matter. It really didnt help their case when the heretics were the only geth anyone ever encountered.

If the geth tried to communicate with the quarians?

Legion said that when they tried, they were attacked 100% of the times. I guess they gave up.

[Quole]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Quole wrote...

I never really understood why the True Geth didnt at least TRY to communicate with them or anyone for that matter. It really didnt help their case when the heretics were the only geth anyone ever encountered.

If the geth tried to communicate with the quarians?

Legion said that when they tried, they were attacked 100% of the times. I guess they gave up.

Not just the Quarians. The geth were known enemies to the whole galaxy. Did they try to communicate with anyone else?

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...
He never said anything like that. Never. Not once. Stop imagining things or twisting events/statements.

You have never taken Legion to the fleet, have you?

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I have, but you have a terrible reccolection of what he said.

Legion says this, "Whenever the Creators thought victory was possible they attacked 100% of the time."

That's it. He says nothing about the geth attempting communication with the quarians. He says nothing about the geth attempting a truce or ceasefire.

You are imaginging things to support what you want to believe about the geth. What you WISH was true.

Oh, right. I forgot. The second a guy misquotes something here, you turn into a correction-Nazi.

I also remembered why I never like bringing up conversations with you, Dean_The_Young, Zulu or ExtremeOne.

[Seboist]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I have, but you have a terrible reccolection of what he said.

Legion says this, "Whenever the Creators thought victory was possible they attacked 100% of the time."

That's it. He says nothing about the geth attempting communication with the quarians. He says nothing about the geth attempting a truce or ceasefire.

You are imaginging things to support what you want to believe about the geth. What you WISH was true.

Oh, right. I forgot. The second a guy misquotes something here, you turn into a correction-Nazi.

I also remembered why I never like bringing up conversations with you, Dean_The_Young, Zulu or ExtremeOne.

Because you get owned?

[Someone With Mass]

Seboist wrote...
Because you get owned?

No, because they're those people that must always have the last word, whenever it's bull**** or not. 

Annoying little ****stains.