384 réponses à ce sujet

[Drachasor]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Freedom is hardly the consensus throughout the world. Also, where is the fact that humans are intelligent claimed as the basis of modern Western ideas of human rights?

It comes up all the time when one considers the rights of animals and the like.

If you are going to go against that, then you are going to have to say why the Asari, Turians, Krogan, Salarians, etc deserve rights but the Geth do not.  Their brains are just organic machines processing data, just like the Geth process data.

[Drachasor]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Drachasor wrote...

Legion is pretty clearly an example of 95% of the Geth, as he estimates.  ALL THE GETH in ME1 are the rebel faction that you get rid of with Legion as part of his loyalty quest, and the same is true of all the ones in ME2 save for Legion.  Did you bother paying attention to what Legion says?  Or are you accusing him of lying?  (Which I think would actually undermine you argument against artificial life further).  The non-rebel Geth, 95% or so of them all, haven't left their space for something like 300 years.

You do realize if Legion is not actually the ally he pretends he is, all of this "information" is worth nothing, right?

And if he's capable of that level of deceit, then that makes him all the more like humanity, which further undercuts your point.  Granted, it makes Legion perhaps a jerk (though he did do a lot to help out humans in ME2), but plenty of humans are jerks.  One can run into them anywhere...

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

lolwut666 wrote...

@Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams

But they're not "just machines".

No offense, but you're advocating racism.

Many cultures with the same perspective would argue that it was all right to destroy others because they were not as worthy, for example.

Just because you chose to view them in a certain way, it does not mean it is the correct way.

Are you arguing they're not machines?

I wasn't aware that Geth were a certain race of humans. I guess I'm racist.

[Dean_the_Young]

lolwut666 wrote...

@Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams

Rather than just denying everything he says, why don't you explain why do you think the geth have no "rights as sentients"?

How about the basis that Geth self-admit to being exceptionally complex computer programs?

If you don't believe the same applies to organics (replace 'fundamentally predictable math' with 'fundamentally predictable series of chemical reactions), then the Geth don't match the same qualifications that organic sentience falls under. The Geth are strictly programed to react to stimuli in various ways, and while incredibly complex interactions of variables occur they aren't anything other than following their programming, even if they can't always understand it. Which, too, would be an aspect of their programming.

Whether you believe a turing test is sentient or not if you can't tell is really the question for if the geth are sentient.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Drachasor wrote...

And if he's capable of that level of deceit, then that makes him all the more like humanity, which further undercuts your point.  Granted, it makes Legion perhaps a jerk (though he did do a lot to help out humans in ME2), but plenty of humans are jerks.  One can run into them anywhere...

Deceit is not an example of even "higher thinking." Many animals on earth hide in wait for their prey. The fact is, the galaxy has no solid evidence that the Geth will not continue the pure hostility they have show to organics in the past.

[lolwut666]

@Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams

That was an example.

If you want to get technical, then you're advocating xenophobia.

And the point is that they are sentient just like us, which means you can't just do as you please to them.

[Drachasor]

Silrian wrote...
That is first of all a slippery slope conscerning argumentations, because what about Babies? Children? Mentally-challanged persons? And to add to the overall complexity: there is still the possibility the Geth are a collective machine ACTING AS IF they are sentient. What's to know the difference for us, we inherently do not know there entire form of life. Based on the things we do know: they, at times, support reconfiguration of all sorts of identity-data, have no form of indiviuality, are machines constructed from lifeless (life in the organic perspective) material, refer to themselves as programs, litterally say organic morality does not apply and at the very least ACT as though they are self-aware, though what that 'self' is is hard to convey seeing as they lay no claim on any individuality. Based on this list of facts I'd say that the only way to get them so the same level of ethical perspective as organics, is to say that organic life is also just a form of 'machinary', this however to me only results in the entire negation of any ethical theory: 'life' is an accumulated illusion in this scenario.

Based on THIS entire line of reasoning I conclude that until new facts come to light, we can do whatever the hell we want with and too Geth because they are simply machinery that act in a way, resembeling partially to living creatures.

Humans ARE organic machines.  We're extremely complicated organic machines.  How does this undercut ethics?  You can't just claim that it does; prove it.

And yes, different humans have different levels of intelligence, but there's a making a big deal out of the differences leads to bad results.  Overall the differences, even among someone below average and someone above average, are very slight (compare even a dumb human to a primate and they're still a genuis).  So we generally lump everyone together into one category, since that easily makes the most sense; certainly true on a pragmatic level.

As for the Geth, they certainly claim individuality.  Legion is very clear that each Geth program reaches its own conclusions and sees things from its own perspective.  Just because they share information more efficiently and faster than we do doesn't mean they aren't individuals; and even if they were just a single entity, that entity would still be alive.

As for the whole "faking it" bit, if you can't tell how it isn't acting like a sentient creature, then saying that in some mysterious way it isn't "really" sentient just doesn't work.  You can claim the same thing about any of the races in ME or even other humans.

[Dean_the_Young]

lolwut666 wrote...

@Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams

That was an example.

If you want to get technical, then you're advocating xenophobia.

And the point is that they are sentient just like us, which means you can't just do as you please to them.

Unless, of course, they really aren't sentient, but have come to a faulty conlusion that they are. Which is entirely possible via entirely non-sentient self-categorization. In which case they aren't sentient, but simply complex, dangerous malfunctioning objects.

Debating whether something can be considered alive is no more advocating xenophobia than questioning if a brain-dead person is alive is advocating mass-murder.

[lolwut666]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

@Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams

Rather than just denying everything he says, why don't you explain why do you think the geth have no "rights as sentients"?

How about the basis that Geth self-admit to being exceptionally complex computer programs?

If you don't believe the same applies to organics (replace 'fundamentally predictable math' with 'fundamentally predictable series of chemical reactions), then the Geth don't match the same qualifications that organic sentience falls under. The Geth are strictly programed to react to stimuli in various ways, and while incredibly complex interactions of variables occur they aren't anything other than following their programming, even if they can't always understand it. Which, too, would be an aspect of their programming.

Whether you believe a turing test is sentient or not if you can't tell is really the question for if the geth are sentient.

You can't really make an argument based on the assumption you know better how fictional AI work than the writers themselves.

"Following their programming"? The geth are capable to learn and create on their own, which means their behavioral patterns are far beyond mere programming.

Instead of making wild guesses, try to base your arguments on the information that was given to us by the game.

Modifié par lolwut666, 09 mai 2011 - 08:49 .

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

lolwut666 wrote...

@Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams

That was an example.

If you want to get technical, then you're advocating xenophobia.

And the point is that they are sentient just like us, which means you can't just do as you please to them.

Ok, it looks like we're not understanding one another. First, it would be helpful if you presented your working definition of sentience as I find the term to be vague. Tell me if this is your argument broken down.

1. Sentience implies a being has rights.
2. Geth are sentient.
3. Geth have rights.

1 and 2 are where I take issue, and depending on the nature of the Geth's "sentience," I may take issue with one more than the other.

[Drachasor]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Drachasor wrote...

And if he's capable of that level of deceit, then that makes him all the more like humanity, which further undercuts your point.  Granted, it makes Legion perhaps a jerk (though he did do a lot to help out humans in ME2), but plenty of humans are jerks.  One can run into them anywhere...

Deceit is not an example of even "higher thinking." Many animals on earth hide in wait for their prey. The fact is, the galaxy has no solid evidence that the Geth will not continue the pure hostility they have show to organics in the past.

There's no species that fakes being human, because you can't fake being sentient without being sentient.  That's the basis of the Turing test.  Being able to "fake" being creative and produce creative works is true creativity.  Being able to "fake" doing science and producing scientific progress is true science.

Being so smart and understanding the human psyche so well you can pull off a completely fake personality without anyone suspecting would inherently require that you are actually sentient.  It's far, far more complicated and difficult to do this than Legion merely being a somewhat naive robot as he appears to be.

[Silrian]

@lolwutt666 You say they're not just machines but how would you possibly defend that other than with things that could be EASILY illusory and trickery of a highly developed computer. Because we do not know the Geth inherently like we do know organic based life (being one of them) there is no definite way to tell the difference. Thus we only have external clues to rely on. Based on those clues, of which I listed a few a couple of posts back, I eventually conclude there are not enough signs to treat Geth with the same ethical perspective as we do 'living beings as we know it'. Therefore, with the reaper threat in mind, I say aim at efficiency and lowest possible organic casualties. You can call that racist but then you can call my preferment of certain electronic products over others racist as well. Someone who would save a man's life to 'kill' a V.I. (which acts the same as Geth and could possibly uphold the same "I am sentient" illusion) would then also be racist. I don't see the value in that.

[Silrian]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

@Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams

That was an example.

If you want to get technical, then you're advocating xenophobia.

And the point is that they are sentient just like us, which means you can't just do as you please to them.

Unless, of course, they really aren't sentient, but have come to a faulty conlusion that they are. Which is entirely possible via entirely non-sentient self-categorization. In which case they aren't sentient, but simply complex, dangerous malfunctioning objects.

Debating whether something can be considered alive is no more advocating xenophobia than questioning if a brain-dead person is alive is advocating mass-murder.

I Agree.

[Drachasor]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Ok, it looks like we're not understanding one another. First, it would be helpful if you presented your working definition of sentience as I find the term to be vague. Tell me if this is your argument broken down.

1. Sentience implies a being has rights.
2. Geth are sentient.
3. Geth have rights.

1 and 2 are where I take issue, and depending on the nature of the Geth's "sentience," I may take issue with one more than the other.

So, you are not certain the Asari, Turians, etc have rights in the ME universe, correct?  Killing them or wiping them out might be just fine, according to you, yes?

Certainly, going by the example set by Legion, he's just as sentient as any of them are.  He has feelings, goals, regrets, etc, just like any member of those species.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

lolwut666 wrote...

"Following their programming"? The geth are capable to learn and create on their own, which means their behavioral patterns are far beyond mere programming.

So computers are starting to behave without executing their programming? Yeah, that's not possible. Perceived intelligence would be extremely dynamic programming or at most the ability to change one's own programming, neither of which push them past the level of computer.

[lolwut666]

@Silrian

Your argument is hollow, because you have no proof that the geth are *not* sentient. There is plenty of proof that they are; you simply chose to claim that it's not enough and therefore it's OK to enslave the geth.

[Drachasor]

Silrian wrote...

@lolwutt666 You say they're not just machines but how would you possibly defend that other than with things that could be EASILY illusory and trickery of a highly developed computer. Because we do not know the Geth inherently like we do know organic based life (being one of them) there is no definite way to tell the difference. Thus we only have external clues to rely on. Based on those clues, of which I listed a few a couple of posts back, I eventually conclude there are not enough signs to treat Geth with the same ethical perspective as we do 'living beings as we know it'. Therefore, with the reaper threat in mind, I say aim at efficiency and lowest possible organic casualties. You can call that racist but then you can call my preferment of certain electronic products over others racist as well. Someone who would save a man's life to 'kill' a V.I. (which acts the same as Geth and could possibly uphold the same "I am sentient" illusion) would then also be racist. I don't see the value in that.

VI's are incapble of coming across as sentient.  They are not capable of coming up with novel solutions to problems (e.g. creativity).  The Geth and Legion certainly can do this.  VIs, as they are described, also can't learn, which again is something Legion and the Geth and general can do.

And again, I stand by my statement you can't fake being sentient for long without actually being sentient.  Sentience is all about processing input and producing output in the right manner; and any system that fakes doing that, must inherently actually be processing that information in the proper way; otherwise it won't get the right output and would be detected.

[Drachasor]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

"Following their programming"? The geth are capable to learn and create on their own, which means their behavioral patterns are far beyond mere programming.

So computers are starting to behave without executing their programming? Yeah, that's not possible. Perceived intelligence would be extremely dynamic programming or at most the ability to change one's own programming, neither of which push them past the level of computer.

The same is true of humans if you know anything about the brain.

[General User]

If I could find a way to put ADM. Gerrel in charge of implementing ADM. Koris’ policies, I think that would be ideal.

[Silrian]

@Drachasor If Human's are simply organic machines, they are the result of an accumulating chemical process in what we would usually call "lifeless matter". There is then no pointable boundary between lifeless and living matter leading to conclude that ALL matter, no 'matter' how complex, is at the core lifeless. The result of this hypothesis (which it still is) is that a stone has no more inherent worth than other matter, other than what certain accumulations of matter (humans) designate it with. This designation is then completely arbitray (based upon someones will) and no arbitrary decision can be the basis for a transcending ethical theory. Thus this scenario eventually negates all possibilities for a foundation of ethical judgement other than the mere contingent will of any individual, which in my view is not acceptable.

Deduced from this I conclude that either Geth are a different life form from us in which case our ethical judgements are meaningless to it. Or it is the same life form which indirectly leads to the conclusion that we're all machines and any form of ethics is completely arbitrary and the result of any and all material processes in our brains. The latter being contingent, whereas ethics in general, by definition, is theoretical and NOT contingent.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Drachasor wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Ok, it looks like we're not understanding one another. First, it would be helpful if you presented your working definition of sentience as I find the term to be vague. Tell me if this is your argument broken down.

1. Sentience implies a being has rights.
2. Geth are sentient.
3. Geth have rights.

1 and 2 are where I take issue, and depending on the nature of the Geth's "sentience," I may take issue with one more than the other.

So, you are not certain the Asari, Turians, etc have rights in the ME universe, correct?  Killing them or wiping them out might be just fine, according to you, yes?

Certainly, going by the example set by Legion, he's just as sentient as any of them are.  He has feelings, goals, regrets, etc, just like any member of those species.

1. I will say I'm a little averse to the whole idea of "rights," because they're absolutes based on unproven ideas. That's not the issue we're discussing. We're discussing whether or not the Geth are on the same level of "living" (for lack of a better term) as humans, Asari, Turians, etc.

2. Legion has not shown emotion. Emotion is only implied when asked about Shepard's armor, but hardly confirmed. A goal is the same thing as an objective, current computers have some form of that.

[Ulathar]

Whoever would help Shepard most against the Reapers, so either Koris or Xen. If Xen's research would succeed, he'd have the Quarian and Geth fleet against the Reapers.

If you definately want the Quarian fleet backing you up, Koris would be the safest bet, though, I think and there might still be an option to get additional help from the Geth in this case, since both sides would leave each other alone.

With the Reapers around, Gerrels "plan" is just stupid, imo.

[Drachasor]

Silrian wrote...

@Drachasor If Human's are simply organic machines, they are the result of an accumulating chemical process in what we would usually call "lifeless matter". There is then no pointable boundary between lifeless and living matter leading to conclude that ALL matter, no 'matter' how complex, is at the core lifeless.

Not true at all.  Stuff that is alive is a lot more organized (a well-defined term) than non-living stuff.  It also works to maintain its organization againsts forces in the environment that would otherwise damage its order.

In more simple terms, living stuff is organized matter that behaves differently than non-living stuff.

[Dean_the_Young]

lolwut666 wrote...

You can't really make an argument based on the assumption you know better how fictional AI work than the writers themselves.

Indeed. Which is why I use the writer's descriptions of how the fictional AI works. Which is... as a complex series of basic VI programs, which are in no way sentient but increasingly complex when parallel.

There is no dispute about how the Geth work, only on whether what they are amounts to true sentience or not, which is an opinion and view which varies by person inside the narrative. Legion, a Geth, claims sentience, but disclaims emotion. Admiral Xen has argued against the Geth being truly sentient. Being an AI is an objective category, but AI being truly sentient is far more of a subjective evaluation, even within the game itself.

And outside of it? Plenty of people in threads on this topic have claimed the Geth possess both sentience and emotion. Some have agreed to sentience, but refute emotion. People in other threads on this forum have argued that without emotion, there is no true free will and sentience. And so on.

"Following their programming"? The geth are capable to learn and create on their own, which means their behavioral patterns are far beyond mere programming.

No, programs writing programs is entirely programmable. Infact, it's the established basis of the Geth development: even before the Geth considered themselves as having achieved sentienced, they were self-modifying and improving themselves. Because they were programmed to do just that.

If you program a machine to make a decision when various inputs are present, the decision making process is still pre-programed. The output may not have been intended, but the machine's processes for coming to its output are a result of its internal processes, and there's no way around that.

Instead of making wild guesses, try to base your arguments on the information that was given to us by the game.

And... done.

[Aramintai]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

I support Admiral vas Qwib Qwib.

I mean, come on. Qwib Qwib.

This. The most sensible guy of them all, and you should give him credit for graceful bearing of a joke name like that.