90 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...
 Besides, the really good stuff happened at Viscount's Keep and the Hanged Man, where there was no fighting at all.

What quests happened there again? I don't recall any that didn't involve killing.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
 Besides, the really good stuff happened at Viscount's Keep and the Hanged Man, where there was no fighting at all.

What quests happened there again? I don't recall any that didn't involve killing.

Eh, I meant the good stuff from Aveline's quest.

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I remember all of them involved killing in some  way or the other. whether in Bartrand's house (coul have been interesting, but instead we get an ethereal golem). Fenris with the Magister. Isabela with Castillon and his right hand. Merril with the demon and then potentially her entire clan. Heck even Anders' plan to blow up the chantry involved fighting when looking for dragon ******.

It's just the gifts that may have prompted cutscenes like that.

No, i mean the ones where you'd get told to just go visit the companion and there you'd have a brief exchange of maybe three sentences tops and that was that, quest done. The gift quests were along these lines, too.

I'll readily admit these were so stripped down from anything interesting they're very easy to forget, but nevertheless they did have them.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
 Besides, the really good stuff happened at Viscount's Keep and the Hanged Man, where there was no fighting at all.

What quests happened there again? I don't recall any that didn't involve killing.

Eh, I meant the good stuff from Aveline's quest.

And I loved those parts. Until I was slapped in the face  and was reminded that the only thing Hawke can do right is slaughter everything that breathes.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I remember all of them involved killing in some  way or the other. whether in Bartrand's house (coul have been interesting, but instead we get an ethereal golem). Fenris with the Magister. Isabela with Castillon and his right hand. Merril with the demon and then potentially her entire clan. Heck even Anders' plan to blow up the chantry involved fighting when looking for dragon ******.

It's just the gifts that may have prompted cutscenes like that.

No, i mean the ones where you'd get told to just go visit the companion and there you'd have a brief exchange of maybe three sentences tops and that was that, quest done. The gift quests were along these lines, too.

I'll readily admit these were so stripped down from anything interesting they're very easy to forget, but nevertheless they did have them.

But those are not quests. Those are companion dialogues. I don't want to comapre with Witcher that much since there are no companions, but in a Bioware game, dialogue with companions is a requirement these days. It's not a sidequest (even if they tried to make it look like it is. In ME2 they were not considered quests).

And it was just a one on one. Why not have a group quest? Why not make a quest with Hawke buying food and drinks and making a party in his house where he invites all his companions?  
That would have been a sidequest. And an epic one at that.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 mai 2011 - 05:19 .

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And I loved those parts. Until I was slapped in the face  and was reminded that the only thing Hawke can do right is slaughter everything that breathes.

I think you need some alone time with Hawke to work out your issues... 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And I loved those parts. Until I was slapped in the face  and was reminded that the only thing Hawke can do right is slaughter everything that breathes.

I think you need some alone time with Hawke to work out your issues... 

I am actually surprised at myself at how much I dislike him.

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But those are not quests. Those are companion dialogues.

Well, but you have just brought up example of the kind of quest you had on mind, and that's basically the same thing -- you get some dialogue with friends, except you'd get told to buy the wine beforehand and there was some extra bits added.

It's a bit silly to first complain that "there's no quests without killing, i just want the PC to do something else" and when you do get that different thing (socialize with the NPC) you complain "that's no quest, that's a dialogue so it doesn't count". If Hawke was told to bring a bottle of wine with him/her would it suddenly make it a quest then? Does it make so huge difference?

Modifié par tmp7704, 11 mai 2011 - 05:26 .

[Foolsfolly]

Hawke can't do anything right. That wears on a player, especially after a few playthroughs. That can lead a person to actively disliking a character.

Hawke has precious few victories and is largely an errand boy. I can understand disliking Hawke. I don't dislike him personally, but I can see why.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But those are not quests. Those are companion dialogues.

Well, but you have just brought up example of the kind of quest you had on mind, and that's basically the same thing -- you get some dialogue, except you'd get told to buy the wine beforehand and there was some extra bits added.

It's a bit silly to first complain that "there's no quests without killing, i just want the PC to do something else" and when you do get that different thing (socialize with the NPC) you complain "that's no quest, that's a dialogue so it doesn't count". If Hawke was told to bring a bottle of wine with him/her would it suddenly make it a quest then? Does it make so huge difference?

No, because in the Witcher, it was not a basic one on one dialogue (which the game also has, but not on the same level as Bioware, because the game does not have companions). It's a party, where you choose who to invite (you have 3 options, that lead to very different scenarios), you talk with several people about several topics (politics, past, whatever)..etc.   It's much more proactive and much more developped than listening to one person talk about x (which should be there, but have quests to expand on it).

Furthermore, there are tons of other examples of quests that do not have killing that I can think of, in other Bioware games. Off the top of my head. The murder investigation in Kotor in Dantooine. The investigation of murder with Sunry in Manaan, Kotor. Negotiating with the Sand People in tatooine, Kotor. Mission and Canderous' quests could also not involve any killing. Several puzzle quests including interrogations, also Kotor.
ME2, Samarra's sidequest. Thane's sidequest. In ME1, some missions could be completed with just negotiations....etc etc.

DA2 has none of that and basic dialogue with companions (pretty much a given in any Bioware game)  is not a compensation for that glaring lack.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 mai 2011 - 05:36 .

[Myusha]

There's the fetch sidequests.
But those are the WORST sidequests.

I miss item codexs. Would've made those sidequests a tiny bit more fun if they came with codexs.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Myusha wrote...

There's the fetch sidequests.

Those are compeltely and utterly useless.

In ME2, at least you get to know why that person cares about the item he / she has lost (and sometimes, it's even touching). In DA2, for all you know, you're giving criminals stolen goods, or secret weapons, or whatever.

[Foolsfolly]

Myusha wrote...

There's the fetch sidequests.
But those are the WORST sidequests.

I miss item codexs. Would've made those sidequests a tiny bit more fun if they came with codexs.

I like the fetch quests for these reasons and these reasons alone:

They give me easy gold.
They give me decent experience.
It takes no time at all to do them.

In those respects I don't hate them. However, there simply aren't enough meaningful side quests so it's easy to pick on these nice money/xp cows. If there were more voiced side quests, exploration, and NPC reactivity to those quests then no one could pick on them. But since they're not there I feel people pick on these money makers unjustly.

They're just there for money and xp and I can dig that.

[Deztyn]

"I think you lost this."

*Hands NPC a dead body.*

"Thanks! I've been looking for this all over"

Modifié par Deztyn, 11 mai 2011 - 05:46 .

[erynnar]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
 Besides, the really good stuff happened at Viscount's Keep and the Hanged Man, where there was no fighting at all.

What quests happened there again? I don't recall any that didn't involve killing.

Eh, I meant the good stuff from Aveline's quest.

I LOVED Aveline's quest! OMG the awkward stare fest with Hawke and Donnic? One of the best parts of the game for me. That whole quest line was. My saves were "Getting Aveline Laid.":lol:

[erynnar]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Myusha wrote...

There's the fetch sidequests.
But those are the WORST sidequests.

I miss item codexs. Would've made those sidequests a tiny bit more fun if they came with codexs.

I like the fetch quests for these reasons and these reasons alone:

They give me easy gold.
They give me decent experience.
It takes no time at all to do them.

In those respects I don't hate them. However, there simply aren't enough meaningful side quests so it's easy to pick on these nice money/xp cows. If there were more voiced side quests, exploration, and NPC reactivity to those quests then no one could pick on them. But since they're not there I feel people pick on these money makers unjustly.

They're just there for money and xp and I can dig that.

This^ And yes, I have picked on them. They could use more story to them too. Just slightly. I do like them for the money and xp. But I would prefer a subtle hint of where to turn it in, a short little story or reason, so I know where to go. I also noticed those Fed ex quests more because of the stupid arrows I think.

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

No, because in the Witcher, it was not a basic one on one dialogue (..)

I know (i've played the Witcher) but it still feels much like just splitting hair -- a conversation with one companion is "just conversation" even when marked as a quest, but similar conversation also marked as a quest is actually a quest when there's more than one NPC in it. What if it was a date instead of a party, would it also be "just conversation so not a quest" if it actually boiled down to talking with single NPC rather than a group of them? And would it require freedom in picking who you want to invite to that date to count as a quest, or would a pre-arranged date be ok?

Finally, is it actually about having specifically quests other than killing, or simply about having things to do other than killing, no matter if these are called quests or not? What's so important about "doing quests" anyway?

[Foolsfolly]

@ erynnar:

I really wish there were more side quests, unrelated to the companions, where you did things. Stuff like Sheparding Wolves, Magistrate's Orders, and the like. The game, especially in late Act 2 and all of Act 3, looses track of the importance of side quests.

They flesh out a world that doesn't revolve around the plot. I love how so many quests underscored the plot, and how almost every companion was connected to the Mage/Templar argument, but side quests are nice for world building.

There's not enough side quests. Simple things like helping a Widow find justice for her murdered husband would have been nice. Or helping the city guard take down a thief. Little things with no real importance but allowing the player to have these little goals.

I miss them.

I miss the Board storylines too from Origins. They weren't deep, necessary, or meaningful they were just side quests you could do that had a small progression.

[tmp7704]

erynnar wrote...

But I would prefer a subtle hint of where to turn it in, a short little story or reason, so I know where to go. I also noticed those Fed ex quests more because of the stupid arrows I think.

There actually was a hint of sorts for these deliveries if i rememeber right -- the description would just mention in some manner the area where you could find the owner (like the Alienage or the Hightown). Obviously, if the player had the quest markers enabled and relied on them then it pretty much removed the need to read these descriptions/hints, and could leave an impression there wasn't any to begin with...

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...
What if it was a date instead of a party, would it also be "just conversation so not a quest" if it actually boiled down to talking with single NPC rather than a group of them? And would it require freedom in picking who you want to invite to that date to count as a quest, or would a pre-arranged date be ok?

If you get to choose, for instance, where to have that date (with possible consequences) or what kind of gift to bring, then yea, it  would be something other than a basic one on one dialogue. Because the protagonist is being more proactive.

 

Finally, is it actually about having specifically quests other than killing, or simply about having things to do other than killing, no matter if these are called quests or not? What's so important about "doing quests" anyway?

Semantics and missing the point completely (same thing with the first part of your post). Other than basic one on one convos that for some reason get to be considered quests in DA2 and no where else in the Bioware games, what does Hawke do other than killing and doing pointless errands with no backstory to them?

That's my main point.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 mai 2011 - 06:05 .

[Melca36]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Myusha wrote...

There's the fetch sidequests.
But those are the WORST sidequests.

I miss item codexs. Would've made those sidequests a tiny bit more fun if they came with codexs.

I like the fetch quests for these reasons and these reasons alone:

They give me easy gold.
They give me decent experience.
It takes no time at all to do them.

In those respects I don't hate them. However, there simply aren't enough meaningful side quests so it's easy to pick on these nice money/xp cows. If there were more voiced side quests, exploration, and NPC reactivity to those quests then no one could pick on them. But since they're not there I feel people pick on these money makers unjustly.

They're just there for money and xp and I can dig that.

Sorry but for $60 some of us would like a bit more substance to them.  Its an insult to my intelligence to find an item and automatically deliver to the specific person.

Am I supposed to assume that all these items have "Property of " stickers on them?

They ruin the immersion of the game.

[Foolsfolly]

Melca36 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Myusha wrote...

There's the fetch sidequests.
But those are the WORST sidequests.

I miss item codexs. Would've made those sidequests a tiny bit more fun if they came with codexs.

I like the fetch quests for these reasons and these reasons alone:

They give me easy gold.
They give me decent experience.
It takes no time at all to do them.

In those respects I don't hate them. However, there simply aren't enough meaningful side quests so it's easy to pick on these nice money/xp cows. If there were more voiced side quests, exploration, and NPC reactivity to those quests then no one could pick on them. But since they're not there I feel people pick on these money makers unjustly.

They're just there for money and xp and I can dig that.

Sorry but for $60 some of us would like a bit more substance to them.  Its an insult to my intelligence to find an item and automatically deliver to the specific person.

Am I supposed to assume that all these items have "Property of " stickers on them?

They ruin the immersion of the game.

I like them becaue they're quick XP and money. Nothing else. I want more side quests and a focused story but easy money and XP is nice too.

Game immersion and gameplay are seperate things to me. I get immersed when talking to characters or emotional events happen (Voice actors and music help so much here). Or when I'm reading the Codex and finding out some interesting bit of back story.

To me, personally, it's not so fragile that the mechanics of the game disrupts it for me. I don't look at the inventory and say "How am I holding over 150 items and yet my armor has no pockets?" And then proclaim my immersion now and forever broken.

There's a seperation for me. So mechanical quests like these don't bother me. I would love more story/character side quests with actual purpose. But I'm not going to **** about easy XP and gold.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 11 mai 2011 - 06:19 .

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If you get to choose, for instance, where to have that date (with possible consequences), then yea, it  would be something other than a basic one on one dialogue. Because the protagonist is being more proactive.

And if you don't get to choose then it doesn't count? Why is the protagonist being more proactive suddenly of importance, when every other quest in the game is considered perfectly quest-like even though it tells you exactly what to bring and where, or who to talk with and where you can find them, and your character gets no say about these?

"fetch me X" is a quest. "Bring X to Y" is a quest. "kill Y" is a quest. Even "Z happened, A may know who did it, go talk with them (and then talk with B and then maybe with C)" is a quest too. But just "go talk with D" isn't. Does it really make sense to you?

Semantics and missing the point completely (some thing with the first part of your post). Other than basic one on one convos that for some reason get to be considered quests in DA2 and no where else in the Bioware games, what does Hawke do other than killing and doing pointless errands with no backstory to them?

That's my main point.

Well, i thought the point was that Hawke had only killing and pointless errands with no backstory, and you desired alternatives, like relaxing and talking with companions. Since you didn't specify all the extra conditions which had to be met by these alternative activities, i've indeed gotten a wrong idea of what you were after.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

No, because in the Witcher, it was not a basic one on one dialogue (which the game also has, but not on the same level as Bioware, because the game does not have companions). It's a party, where you choose who to invite (you have 3 options, that lead to very different scenarios), you talk with several people about several topics (politics, past, whatever)..etc.   It's much more proactive and much more developped than listening to one person talk about x (which should be there, but have quests to expand on it).

Don't forget sneaking past grandma to get pickles and lard!

[AngryFrozenWater]

This is what I think of it...

1). The removal of tactical view doesn't allow me to properly oversee the battlefield and target enemies.

2). Several classes jump around the battlefield, so it is hard to predict how enemies and your party behave.

3). The waves of enemies popping out of thin air don't allow me to predict who long a fight takes or where the enemies are spawning from.

4). Although I can lock the party movement, I cannot stop them attacking when an enemy is in range. Locking movement helps, but usually that means ranged characters will continue fighting and close combat fighters start again when an enemy comes near. In DA:O I could simply select them to prevent combat. This is useful when I want them to preserve mana and stamina before a fight or just hide or prevent the use of a given talent/spell until I think it is best to use it.

5). While playing a rogue I get dizzy because I jump like a frog from enemy to enemy.

6). The over the top fighting animations distract when I want to see what's going on in a fight. This would be less of a problem when tactical view was available.

7). The new talent system forces me to use weapons more than talents and spells. Mages suffer the most of this. This cannot be not explained in a single sentence. See Limitations of the new talent tree system for details.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 11 mai 2011 - 06:45 .