534 réponses à ce sujet

[blauregen]

IanPolaris wrote...

I think it violates immersion.  I find it annoying (no worse than that), and I've already said it doesn't even rank in the top ten of my beefs with the game...but it is on the list.

-Polaris

I don't.

As for your statistics. With a sample size of 8 companions and ca 10% of the participants in studies of sexual demographics expressing a certain same sex attraction - which should because of our Hawke's rugged handsomeness and heroic charme  be enough to make them potential partners - four companions who might be open to a same sex partnership  isn't as improbable as you seem to make it out, even if we assume similar relations in Thedas as in the US.

The studies themselves are, in my opinion, to be taken with a grain of salt though. I think there is a certain cultural bias  in the answers, due to anxiety of being taken for gay, even if you could fall for the right same sex partner.

In the seventies ( before the whole AIDS-catastrophe ), related surveys showed a significantly higher percentage of people identifying themselves a gay or bi, and surveys in areas with a high acceptance, like San Francisco still show around 15% GLB population. I seriously doubt that this is purely due to migration.

[Leonia]

IanPolaris wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

If on average X % of the population of Thedas is bi-sexual then that doesn't mean that it will be an even distribution of that percentage at any given location. Hawke is just lucky that she caught 4 of them in her company. Makes sense to me.

1:6.25 million

Sure.

Whatever.

-Polaris

Clearly it happened. As unlikely as it might be, it DID happen. You can't deny that all 4 LIs are bi. But ignore the facts if you wish.

[IanPolaris]

leonia42 wrote...

Clearly it happened. As unlikely as it might be, it DID happen. You can't deny that all 4 LIs are bi. But ignore the facts if you wish.

It violates immersion.  I am not saying it "didn't happen" but the way it was presented seemed plastic and fake especially since the LIs seemed to be "Hawke-sexual" rather than bi-sexual (Isabella excepted...I do accept her character as genuinely bisexual).

-Polaris

[Mystranna Kelteel]

IanPolaris wrote...
You are convinced that anyone that doesn't agree with you has a problem with homosexuals.

Nope, just you atm. XD

Also I said the GBLT activist community.  You know DAMN well that that includes segments of population far beyond those that are only bi...and you know DAMN well that if you shout enough (and have deep enough pockets) that you can have influence far beyond your actual numbers.
Please don't insult my intelligence by suggesting that companes are NOT afraid of GBLT activist backlash becasue we both know that isn't so.
-Polaris

You mean all those companies who don't have any gay content in their games at all?  Which is, what, almost all of them?

Yeah, yeah, they're terrified.

[Russalka]

Immersion is subjective.

[Corto81]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
To a large degree I think that's exactly what happened.  Bioware decided to hand an olive branch to the GBLT community because they knew they'd whine and complain if they didn't.  You can joke all you want, but companies are genuinely afraid of some "politically correct" groups and the GBLT activists are high on that list.
-Polaris

But we're only 3% of the population! 

How could they be so weak?!

LMAO
No, really, that's hilarious.  It's not that the DA writers are open-minded people and want to provide a range of content, it's that they were too afraid of the gay community and were all but forced into writing icky gay stuff to be politically correct.

More and more you convince me that you have a problem with homosexuals.

You're twisting his words here.

Personally, one of my best friends is bi.
I have no problem with people being anything they are born with or choose to do, as long as it doesn't evolve into violence and crime (meaning, I have a problem with murderers and terrorists, for example).
I really, truly am for tolerance and everyone being equal.

That said, I don't find the LI writing in DA2 believable.
They don't have their own sexuality, they adjust to Hawke.

It's lazy game-design (IMO) and for me, personally, it ruins immersion.

I bought Morrigan and Alistair being straight.
I bought Zev and Leliana being bi.
It felt like them.

Fenris, Anders and Merrill feel like they aren't their own characters with their own sexual orientation, but adjust to Hawke.

...

Either way, twist that into anything you want, but bottom line, no, I don't find the writing with LIs in DAII believable.

[AngryFrozenWater]

IanPolaris wrote...

Russalka wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I have.  I don't recall David Gaider saying anything about a different percentage of bi vs non-bi people in Thedas.

-Polaris

Oh, I'm sorry, I meant your insinuations about Bioware wanting to shut up the gay gamers.

Actually he has valided these very concerns by painting anyone that disagreed with the DA2 romance design decisions as a homophobe.  It was not DG"s finest hour.

-Polaris

I am not one of Mr Gaider's greatest fans. We do have some collisions from time to time so to speak. But that doesn't mean he is always wrong. There's nothing to be afraid of. It's an option you have in the game. You aren't forced to use it, nor will an army of bi-sexuals hunt you down when you refuse. And last time I checked most RPG fans liked the idea of choice in their games. So I can't see the problem.

[mousestalker]

IanPolaris wrote...

It violates immersion.  I am not saying it "didn't happen" but the way it was presented seemed plastic and fake especially since the LIs seemed to be "Hawke-sexual" rather than bi-sexual (Isabella excepted...I do accept her character as genuinely bisexual).

-Polaris

If we are to judge games based upon how close they are to reality, then every character darn well better be attracted to me. Because I am that awesome.  

[IanPolaris]

Corto81 wrote...

You're twisting his words here.

Of course they are.  It's easier to shoot the messenger than try to accept that perhaps the message is one you might not like.  I agree with the rest of your post entirely.  I find it sad that I am being painted with such a black brush that I do not believe I deserve when I am only trying to make the same points you just did.

I like your point about Merrill and Fenris specificially.  They DO seem to adjust their sexuality to Hawke's (which is what I mean by the term 'hawke-sexual').

-Polaris

[Nerdage]

I don't know what kind of proof anybody could expect with regards to bisexuality in Thedas compared to the real world. We can easily make our own subjective opinions using the two but the game can hardly reference the real world as a comparison, can it? 'Our world' doesn't exist to the game world so how could it?

Example: Somebody in-game trying to draw a comparison would end up having to say "Imagine a hypothetical place, let's call it "Europe", bisexuality is about twice as common as it would be there". There you go, there's your proof, but that makes no sense at all! Frankly, going about my daily life I don't see any evidence to suggest how prevalent bisexuality is even in my own city, let alone the world, all I have to go on is the relatively small group of people I actually know. I don't know why a game would be any different.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Corto81 wrote...
That said, I don't find the LI writing in DA2 believable.
They don't have their own sexuality, they adjust to Hawke.

No, they're all bi.  But, yes, they do fall for the individual Hawke.

How is that unrealistic?  That's how this romance thing works; you fall for a person, most often of your preferred gender.  For bisexuals it can be either gender, and all 4 LI's in DA2 are bisexual.

It's not like a bisexual would sleep with anyone, a gay man would sleep with any man, and a straight man would sleep with any woman.  They have to be attracted to the individual.

None of them ever flat-out define their sexuality either, nor would they in real life.  This isn't an issue unless you make it one.

[IanPolaris]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I am not one of Mr Gaider's greatest fans. We do have some collisions from time to time so to speak. But that doesn't mean he is always wrong. There's nothing to be afraid of. It's an option you have in the game. You aren't forced to use it, nor will an army of bi-sexuals hunt you down when you refuse. And last time I checked most RPG fans liked the idea of choice in their games. So I can't see the problem.

*Le Sigh*  Did you miss the part where I said it was only an annoyance.  A big reason it's only an annoyance is for this very reason.  I CAN squint and pretend it doesn't exist if I want to (or accept a bi relationshiop if I want that).  However, by using virtually all of the same romances and seeminly having the NPC LIs adjust their sexuality to your character's gender DOES feel contrived and plastic...which is really the point.

As for DG, it wasn't his finest hour because he seemed to paint ALL critics of the universal Bi-sexual LIs as homophobes and that simply isn't true.  In fact, it's WRONG.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

[Mystranna Kelteel]

IanPolaris wrote...

Corto81 wrote...
You're twisting his words here.

Of course they are.

I don't have to twist anything.

You said they made the DA2 LI's all bisexual to shut up the vocal GLBT activists.

XD

[AngryFrozenWater]

mousestalker wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

It violates immersion.  I am not saying it "didn't happen" but the way it was presented seemed plastic and fake especially since the LIs seemed to be "Hawke-sexual" rather than bi-sexual (Isabella excepted...I do accept her character as genuinely bisexual).

-Polaris

If we are to judge games based upon how close they are to reality, then every character darn well better be attracted to me. Because I am that awesome.  

Now that you mention it... The same goes for me. Odd.

[Herr Uhl]

DuckSoup wrote...

I'm straight and I've had sex with a women. What of it?

I'm guessing that you're female, otherwise the statement would be kind of silly.

[tmp7704]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

How is that unrealistic?  (.. ) all 4 LI's in DA2 are bisexual.

That's not as much unrealistic but just unlikely, i think. It'd feel just as odd if all LI's in the game were straight, or they were all gay. And it's that unlikeliness that can make characters appear as if they're in a way more fake, and shaped this way purely for the player's benefit.

[IanPolaris]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Corto81 wrote...
You're twisting his words here.

Of course they are.

I don't have to twist anything.

You said they made the DA2 LI's all bisexual to shut up the vocal GLBT activists.

XD

No.  THIS is what I said:

To a large degree I think that's exactly what happened. Bioware decided to hand an olive branch to the GBLT community because they knew they'd whine and complain if they didn't.

Please note the world I bolded for easy reference.  I bolded it because you so-conveniently left of this little bit.  Frankly given your reaction and some others, I don't THINK I am off base either.  Far better to sacrifice a little verisilitude if it spares you from getting yelled at by a very vocal minority with a lot of political connections.

If so, it wouldn't be the first time.

-Polaris

[LiquidGrape]

General_Minus wrote...

Anders was sure as hell straight in Awakening

*Cough*

[Mystranna Kelteel]

IanPolaris wrote...
Please note the world I bolded for easy reference.  I bolded it because you so-conveniently left of this little bit.  Frankly given your reaction and some others, I don't THINK I am off base either.  Far better to sacrifice a little verisilitude if it spares you from getting yelled at by a very vocal minority with a lot of political connections.
If so, it wouldn't be the first time.
-Polaris

See, I don't have to twist this at all.  We were always talking about your opinion here, your little conspiracy theory.  The fact that it's what you "think" was definitely implied.

Because it sure as hell isn't a fact.

[HTTP 404]

kirkwall is the San Francisco of Thedas and Dragon Age is the late 60s.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

It isn't realistic but I liked it. I was happy my female character could romance Leliana in Origins so I was looking forward to more of the same in DA2 and was pleasantly surprised that I now had the choice of two lovely ladies. My lady Hawke was spoilt for choice which I can't say is a bad thing.

I can understand if people think its unrealistic but I say realism sucks. I'd rather lose some immersion so I get a bit more choice. Depending on Hawke I can decide if I think a companion is gay straight or bi. In Origins I always thought of Leliana as a lesbian despite knowing she could romance a male warden, there is plenty of room to make up your own mind.

[Russalka]

I think the whole system is immersion-breaking. It's as if four people stand in a line, ready to be talked to in a certain way to start romance which inevitably leads to sex.

In fact, the whole game is immersion-breaking. People jumping around in heavy armour? Stick-women wielding huge weapons? A religion that is so uncannily similar to the real world? Oh no no no. That's it, I don't want to play any games anymore.