534 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

Sarcastic Tasha wrote...

For one thing I didn't even realise that all four companions were romance options for either gender until I read it on the internet after playing. I new there was an option to flirt with everyone but there was also an option to flirt with Aveline and she's not romancable for anyone.

That's a really good point, actually. Without external knowledge (or multiple playthroughs) the orientation of the characters is very much in the air. For all the player knows some of them could be either straight or gay, depending on what pairings happen in their game.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

IanPolaris wrote...
Why?  It happens everyday.  Companies like political protesters about as much as they like negative balance sheets.  In fact most companies (that I know of anyway...and I know quite a few being a shareholder in hundreds) will go to great legths to appease activist groups (Peta is a good example) just to avoid the bad publicity.
That's the way the world is.
-Polaris

Right, it happens every day.

Every day these myriad game companies try to "shut up the GLBT activists" by... not having any gay content - at all - in their games.

[Wulfram]

Brockololly wrote...

Eh....I like my NPCs more defined by BioWare and not Hawke-sexual like Merrill and Fenris.

I'm not sure I understand this.  How would you make Merrill and Fenris "more defined"?

Leliana and Zevran made references to past relationships, but Merrill seems to have been too busy studying to have and Fenris wouldn't remember.

[IanPolaris]

Russalka wrote...

I did not see much complaining about there being only two bisexual love interests in Origins. Why would there suddenly be a fear of riots with Dragon Age 2, if everyone was expecting there to be two again?

Both Lelianna and Zevran came with extensive backgrounds and character driven stories that clearly and believably explained why they were bisexual (and how their professions...bard and assassin respectively) tended to select for those that were either bisexual or could 'fake it'.  Combine that with two other LIs that were more conventional in their sexuality, and the entire thing seemed plausible if somewhat unlikely.

It's a lot easier to swallow a 1:2000 coincidence than a 1:6.3 million coincidence.

-Polaris

[jlb524]

IanPolaris wrote...

I also know the grief that Bioware got from ME1 too.  I ALSO know that EA runs Bioware these days which was not true for ME1.  I also note that the raciness of the romances has been toned down in both ME2 (compared with ME1) and DA2 comparied with DA1 (and it's not like dry-humping in underwear was all that erotic).

-Polaris

What does that have to do with BW/EA cramming in LGBT romances to appease us?

[Brockololly]

Siansonea II wrote...

Just as a point of order, anything that "alienates the straight gamer crowd" is a GOOD thing, in my opinion. As far as I'm concerned, all groups of entitled, intolerant children should be alienated as often as possible.

That said, I am an ancient hetero woman, who is heartily sick of little boys freaking out over Teh Gayz.

Well golly gee whiz, thanks for lumping every single straight male gamer in as some entitled, intolerant little boy who freaks out over "Teh Gayz."

You stay classy.

[Russalka]

Oh great, the need to explain bisexuality again. Tell me why you are heterosexual and I will decide whether it is proper or not.

And I still don't see why Bioware needed to be paranoid about there being a gay riot if only two bisexual love interests would have been added.

Modifié par Russalka, 10 mai 2011 - 03:45 .

[IanPolaris]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Why?  It happens everyday.  Companies like political protesters about as much as they like negative balance sheets.  In fact most companies (that I know of anyway...and I know quite a few being a shareholder in hundreds) will go to great legths to appease activist groups (Peta is a good example) just to avoid the bad publicity.
That's the way the world is.
-Polaris

Right, it happens every day.

Every day these myriad game companies try to "shut up the GLBT activists" by... not having any gay content - at all - in their games.

Actually to the best of my knowledge most games don't have ANY romantic content in their games (and there was serious consideration of DA2 being the same way).  Obviously if there is no romance, no one can complain if there is no GLBT content.  In addition to that, Bioware has a certain reputation.  Other companies have different reputations.

No, what I say is very real.  Companies will go well out of heir way (if possible) to avoid bad publiciaty that usually comes with locking horns with activist groups if at all reasonably possible.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

jlb524 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I also know the grief that Bioware got from ME1 too.  I ALSO know that EA runs Bioware these days which was not true for ME1.  I also note that the raciness of the romances has been toned down in both ME2 (compared with ME1) and DA2 comparied with DA1 (and it's not like dry-humping in underwear was all that erotic).

-Polaris

What does that have to do with BW/EA cramming in LGBT romances to appease us?

Given that they existed in DAO, BW/EA had virtually no choice to include them in DA2 lest they provoke a fecal-matter storm (as this very thread indicates would have happened).  Given the lack of resources, I think BW took the cheap and easy (and lazy) way out by making them all Hawke-sexual to "please everyone".  Honestly I see that a lot in DA2...attempts to please everyone which seldom please anyone.

-Polaris

[Nerdage]

IanPolaris wrote...

Both Lelianna and Zevran came with extensive backgrounds and character driven stories that clearly and believably explained why they were bisexual (and how their professions...bard and assassin respectively) tended to select for those that were either bisexual or could 'fake it'.  Combine that with two other LIs that were more conventional in their sexuality, and the entire thing seemed plausible if somewhat unlikely.

It's a lot easier to swallow a 1:2000 coincidence than a 1:6.3 million coincidence.

-Polaris

Umm.. There has to be a reason for a character to be bisexual? We need to be able to look at their back-story and say "Yep, that's how it happened, that's why they're bi"? Sounds a bit contrived to me.

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

Given that they existed in DAO, BW/EA had virtually no choice to include them in DA2 lest they provoke a fecal-matter storm (as this very thread indicates would have happened).

To be fair they did very much that with ME2 despite similar setup. The **** storm in the teacup did indeed happen over it, that didn't stop them.

[LiquidGrape]

Brockololly wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

*Coughs once more*

But thats the thing- if you're looking at Anders as bi given DA2, sure, that line comes across as possibly being flirty, not much but maybe. But from Awakening, I don't see that as anything more than Anders being a bit mocking and jocular to contrast with how stoic and to the point Nathaniel is. There is far more evidence of Anders only taking romantic interest in women in Awakening than ever being interested in men.

But like you've illustrated, that's completely up to personal interpretation, or, I'd even dare say, receptibility.
That's not intended as criticism, I simply believe that different people will make different deductions.

When I first encountered this particular branch of banter in Awakening, I was immediately struck by the possibility that Anders might be bisexual. As I was playing a female character at the time, I had no means to explore that possibility further, and people do tell me that there isn't much else suggestion apart from this exchange.
But regardless, there is that space for interpretation.
I know it seems possible that I argue this point retroactively, but my reaction was genuine.

The point is, no one character has ever made any final declarative remarks as to their sexual orientation. Therefore, elaborating on that subject is completely legitimate.
Speaking as a straight male (I don't think it is relevant, but it might remove any possibility of doubts as to my potential bias), I happen to think the execution in DAII was perfectly fine. In fact, I think it's rather excellent.
It introduced an all-inclusive theme of sexuality without resorting to cheap pandering.
I respect that profusely.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 10 mai 2011 - 03:55 .

[IanPolaris]

Russalka wrote...

Oh great, the need to explain bisexuality again. Tell me why you are heterosexual and I will decide whether it is proper or not.

And I still don't see why Bioware needed to be paranoid about there being a gay riot if only two bisexual love interests would have been added.

I think that BW (given DAO) realized they had to have at least a choice of GLBT romances or else there would be a gay-backlash.  I don't think that's revalation to anyone.  However, trying to code multiple romances with multiple seuxal preferences is hard and requires more resources than writing four basic romances and then altering details to fit the gender of the main character (at the cost of verisimilitude).

That's what I think happened.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Given that they existed in DAO, BW/EA had virtually no choice to include them in DA2 lest they provoke a fecal-matter storm (as this very thread indicates would have happened).

To be fair they did very much that with ME2 despite similar setup. The **** storm in the teacup did indeed happen over it, that didn't stop them.

Right but the fact the fecalstorm happened probably influenced BW's decision to do it this way for DA2.  That's all I'm really saying.

-Polaris

[wildannie]

IanPolaris wrote...

wildannie wrote...

I don't really see them as all bi within an individual playthrough.

MHawke playthrough -
Anders - Gay
Merrill - straight
Isabella - bi
Fenris - bi

FHawke playthrough

Anders - bi
Merrill - gay
Isabella - bi
Fenris - straight

I've not read all this thread but I'm always surprised that people are so affronted by Anders being gay because he was straight in Awakenings... I *always* thought he might be gay...more so in awakenings than in DA2 even.

This is what I mean by "Hawke-Sexual" (Merrill in particular).  Merrill's sexuality should not depend on what gender Hawke is.

-Polaris

I can see how it's not ideal, especially if you play both genders.
I always play female characters, I've tried to play MHawke and MShep but they always get abandoned.  By only playing Female characters they are all just the gender they reveal within that universe so it causes me no problems with immersion.

There are many things that I would like to be changed in this game *cough*more conversations*cough* but restricting the LIs is not one of them.

[Siansonea]

Brockololly wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Just as a point of order, anything that "alienates the straight gamer crowd" is a GOOD thing, in my opinion. As far as I'm concerned, all groups of entitled, intolerant children should be alienated as often as possible.

That said, I am an ancient hetero woman, who is heartily sick of little boys freaking out over Teh Gayz.

Well golly gee whiz, thanks for lumping every single straight male gamer in as some entitled, intolerant little boy who freaks out over "Teh Gayz."

You stay classy.

Oh, I will, kitten, I will.

And...sensitive much? If you're not an entitled, intolerant little boy who freaks over Teh Gayz, then why on Earth would you think I was talking about YOU?

[IanPolaris]

nerdage wrote...
Umm.. There has to be a reason for a character to be bisexual? We need to be able to look at their back-story and say "Yep, that's how it happened, that's why they're bi"? Sounds a bit contrived to me.

Considering we are supposed to identify with the NPCs (esp if a LI), then I'd say it would most certainly help a great deal.  At least some reference to past relationship (even crushes) would help.

-Polaris

[jlb524]

IanPolaris wrote...

Given that they existed in DAO, BW/EA had virtually no choice to include them in DA2 lest they provoke a fecal-matter storm (as this very thread indicates would have happened).  Given the lack of resources, I think BW took the cheap and easy (and lazy) way out by making them all Hawke-sexual to "please everyone".  Honestly I see that a lot in DA2...attempts to please everyone which seldom please anyone.

-Polaris

I thought they were only trying to please the militant LGBT minority? 

Also, it appears that in ME1 Ashley and Kaidan were originally intended to be bisexual romances, but then given the 'lack of resources' they took the 'cheap and easy' way out and just made them straight....oh noes!    I suppose, as that benefited the 'straight gamer', it's no biggie....

In addition, ME1 did have a fully realized s/s romance (Liara) and they decided to make all 6 of the ME2 LIs straight...I don't see any LGBT rioting over that.

Modifié par jlb524, 10 mai 2011 - 03:53 .

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

Right but the fact the fecalstorm happened probably influenced BW's decision to do it this way for DA2.  That's all I'm really saying.

Well, that's possible. On the other hand, you have the **** storm over reuse of maps in ME and then DA2 devs going on the record how they never thought it'd be such a big issue. Realistically, i don't think they concern themselves with what people scream on the forums that much

[Wulfram]

I don't get the impression Bioware's writing team needs to be pressured into writing GLBT content.

[blauregen]

Brockololly wrote...
Well golly gee whiz, thanks for lumping every single straight male gamer in as some entitled, intolerant little boy who freaks out over "Teh Gayz."

She didn't. My personal impression is that of all the people writing on this board, including many male straight gamers, only a small but vocal minority seems to find SGRA annoying enough to complain about it in threads like this one. And while a real psychologist ( studied and practicing, as opposed to the armchair-variety, like me ) warned me that diagnosing people from their trolling on message boards is evil, the suspicion that they might have some anxiety-related problems in this regard, sometimes  looks really plausible.

[IanPolaris]

jlb524 wrote...

In addition, ME1 did have a fully realized s/s romance (Liara) and they decided to make all 6 of the ME2 LIs straight...I don't see any LGBT rioting over that.

Actually there were LGBT protests over the fact that all ME2 LIs were straight.  However, in ME1, all romances were straight as well (except Liaria and she was an alien and didn't really count since her entire race was explicitly and believably bi).  In DAO you had two explicitly bi LIs without a race that shoehorned that.  It makes a difference.

-Polaris

[jlb524]

IanPolaris wrote...

Considering we are supposed to identify with the NPCs (esp if a LI), then I'd say it would most certainly help a great deal.  At least some reference to past relationship (even crushes) would help.

-Polaris

That may be important to you for whatever reason, but not to everyone.  Plus, it's ridiculous that straight LIs aren't held to the same standards (I don't believe Alistair mentions past relationships either, having not had any).

Also, Merrill didn't have past relationships and Fenris doesn't remember squat.

Me, personally, I'd rather hear about a character's hopes/fears, their goals, etc. rather than who they've slept with...that seems to be rather shallow character dev.

[tmp7704]

Siansonea II wrote...

And...sensitive much? If you're not an entitled, intolerant little boy who freaks over Teh Gayz, then why on Earth would you think I was talking about YOU?

Just as a point of order, anything that "alienates the straight gamer crowd" is a GOOD thing, in my opinion.

Why would he, indeed.

[jlb524]

IanPolaris wrote...
Actually there were LGBT protests over the fact that all ME2 LIs were straight. 

Yes, people complained on the forums....big whoop.  That happens with everything around here.  You were describing larger repercussions that this.

IanPolaris wrote...
However, in ME1, all romances were straight as well (except Liaria and she was an alien and didn't really count since her entire race was explicitly and believably bi). 

I'm saying they were going to make the others bi but cut it due to time constraints and being 'lazy'.  They were only straight out of BW's lazyiness. 

IanPolaris wrote...
In DAO you had two explicitly bi LIs without a race that shoehorned that.  It makes a difference.
-Polaris

Explicit, aye?  I maintain that Leliana isn't very explicitly into dudes unless you play a male Warden...which is why I think it plausible for me to pretend she's a lesbian in my game, as I only play Female Wardens.