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[Mystranna Kelteel]

IanPolaris wrote...
That's not 'statistically possible"  It's statistically ludicrous which is the entire point.  That's not being biased.  It's calling out lazy programming and writing for what it is...although given the rather obnoxious postings from the GBLT posters here, I can better see why Bioware did it.
Hint:  Sometimes being too much of an activist makes enemies that weren't there previously.  Just saying....
-Polaris

And sometimes putting forth an illogical argument calls for criticism.

Because, by your own logic, let's take DAO.  There we have 2 bisexuals in the party, and more bisexual NPC's (number range differing based on Origin, decisions, etc.).

Sounds like you should have a problem with DAO too, as it is also "statistically ludicrous" (in your terms) based on the data you derived in the real world and decided to also apply to Thedas.

It is supremely biased; you're seeing a problem because you want the problem to exist.  That's how it seems to me.

[Leonia]

Nodscouter wrote...

Well, you ignore my post. How f*cking convenient:

Nodscouter wrote...
What you ARE doing is taking real-world statistics and applying it to a world of Fantasy. My own statistics (Not techincally my own, but fine, I'll roll with it) was for the real world, they people conducting the survery didn't go to Bioware and ask ''So about how many percent of people in Thedas are straight?''. Both of our statistics are valid for this world. They are not valid for Thedas.

Try using more foul language in your posts where you don't really have a point to your argument. You'll get more attention but you might have a hard time defending your weak position.

[Nodscouter]

IanPolaris wrote...

Nodscouter wrote...

What you ARE doing is taking real-world statistics and applying it to a world of Fantasy. My own statistics (Not techincally my own, but fine, I'll roll with it) was for the real world, they people conducting the survery didn't go to Bioware and ask ''So about how many percent of people in Thedas are straight?''. Both of our statistics are valid for this world. They are not valid for Thedas.

Point. Missing it. When you play in a fantasy world, you assume that unless you are told otherwise (such as magic) that the people, and physical laws of the world are the same as the world we live in. This helps us immerse ourselves in the fantasy world. This is what is meant by verisimilitude. That means that the same basic statistics that apply in the real world are generally valid for Thedas...and that makes having four bi companions (but only for Hawke apparently) be so unlikely as to threaten suspension of disbelief (whether it's one in five million or one in a billion, it's TOO DAMNED LOW to be accepted as believable). That's the point.

If it were true that most (or even a large minority) of the population of Thedas WERE bi, then we'd see completely different inheritance patterns, marriage patterns, noble linage pattersn and much more....and we do NOT.

-Polaris

But... for f*cks sake, aren't we basically told in DA2 that Thedas have a different percentage of non-straight people? Like, really really different?
And your point is still that real world statistics apply to Thedas. It just doesn't work like that.

leonia42 wrote...

Nodscouter wrote...

Well, you ignore my post. How f*cking convenient:

Nodscouter wrote...
What you ARE doing is taking real-world statistics and applying it to a world of Fantasy. My own statistics (Not techincally my own, but fine, I'll roll with it) was for the real world, they people conducting the survery didn't go to Bioware and ask ''So about how many percent of people in Thedas are straight?''. Both of our statistics are valid for this world. They are not valid for Thedas.

Try using more foul language in your posts where you don't really have a point to your argument. You'll get more attention but you might have a hard time defending your weak position.

There is a bloody point. Don't ignore it just because I happen to use one or two words that arent' culturally accpeted.

Modifié par Nodscouter, 10 mai 2011 - 01:46 .

[Leonia]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote..

It is supremely biased; you're seeing a problem because you want the problem to exist.  That's how it seems to me.

And this sums up pretty much every IanP post ever.

[IanPolaris]

Warheadz wrote...

I understand that they want the romances to be available to everyone, but in this game it just felt very artificial and "gamey" that EVERYONE wanted to do Hawke, regardless of Hawke's gender. I'd rather have plenty of options for all sides, than have an open buffet. But just my opinion.
I'd be fine with it if there were 2 straight options and 6 gay options, as long as it doesn't feel, like I said, artificial and "gamey".

And I am straight. And this was just my opinion.

Indeed.  Thank you.  That was all I was trying to say before some got bent out of shape.  If the odds are too low, then the world feels "gamey" which is a sign that verisimilitude and willing suspension of disbelief are being harmed....in this case by asking a player to accept at face value a coincidence that has such low odds as to be essentially impossible.

-Polaris

[Nodscouter]

Magic is unlikely to exist in the real world. It exists in Thedas, proved in DA:O
Having a large amount of bisxexuals is unlikely to be true in the real world. There's a large amount of bisexuals in Thedas, proved in DA2.
Can't say I see the problem here.

Modifié par Nodscouter, 10 mai 2011 - 01:48 .

[Sylvianus]

It is supremely biased; you're seeing a problem because you want the problem to exist. That's how it seems to me.

The best way to ignore a problem that is to say these things. Indeed. Thank you for that clarification which helps a lot.

For all subjects, doing the same and will all have a drink without asking any questions.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 10 mai 2011 - 01:48 .

[mousestalker]

The point isn't that it is improbable that the four people in a certain poster's bedroom are bi. The point is that it is improbable that there would be more than one person (regardless of sexual orientation) in that bedroom.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Out of all things that could be criticized about this game, we always come back to this. sigh

Anyhow ideally, I would prefer straight, bisexual and hopefully one day, solely homosexual romance interests, instead of having them all bi. But that's not going to happen soon, since we've seen a side boob in ME cause too much controversy.

[IanPolaris]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
That's not 'statistically possible"  It's statistically ludicrous which is the entire point.  That's not being biased.  It's calling out lazy programming and writing for what it is...although given the rather obnoxious postings from the GBLT posters here, I can better see why Bioware did it.
Hint:  Sometimes being too much of an activist makes enemies that weren't there previously.  Just saying....
-Polaris

And sometimes putting forth an illogical argument calls for criticism.

Because, by your own logic, let's take DAO.  There we have 2 bisexuals in the party, and more bisexual NPC's (number range differing based on Origin, decisions, etc.).

Sounds like you should have a problem with DAO too, as it is also "statistically ludicrous" (in your terms) based on the data you derived in the real world and decided to also apply to Thedas.

It is supremely biased; you're seeing a problem because you want the problem to exist.  That's how it seems to me.

Let's look at it.  The odds of two people being Bi are much higher.  Specifically they are 1/2500.  This is a low but BELIEVABLE especially since we are given extensive rationals and backstories about bards and assassins that explain why they tend to select those that are bi.  That's a far cry from 1 in 5 million with not a word of explaination or rational.

As for Thedas, it's simply verisimilitude.  Thedas like any world is assumed to work the same way ours does unless we are told differently and we are never told differently when it comes to overall sexuality....so RL stats apply.

-Polaris

[Leonia]

mousestalker wrote...

The point isn't that it is improbable that the four people in a certain poster's bedroom are bi. The point is that it is improbable that there would be more than one person (regardless of sexual orientation) in that bedroom.

If I were to marry this post, would it make me gay?

[Cutlass Jack]

*ignore this*

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 10 mai 2011 - 01:50 .

[Nodscouter]

And we ARE told differently in DA2. What's the damn problem? It's even hinted in DAO with half the romances being bi, which is according to your statistics, completely impossible.

[IanPolaris]

Nodscouter wrote...

But... for f*cks sake, aren't we basically told in DA2 that Thedas have a different percentage of non-straight people? Like, really really different?
And your point is still that real world statistics apply to Thedas. It just doesn't work like that.

No we aren't.  We are asked to accept without explaination four completely different people that all just happen to run into Hawke and all just happen to be bi.  There is nothing in the game lore that even suggests that the rate of sexuality is any different in Thedas than our own world.  If that were so, then we should expect to see large scale cultural differences and inheriance differences (at minimum) to account for this and we do not.

=Polaris

[Sylvianus]

Out of all things that could be criticized about this game, we always come back to this. sigh

Because it is a real problem despite what those who say that this is not the case. Everyone's opinion on each topic. Reuse of maps, also always returns to the subject.

it is a biased point of view, a problem we want to exist ?

[Cutlass Jack]

IanPolaris wrote...

No we aren't.  We are asked to accept without explaination four completely different people that all just happen to run into Hawke and all just happen to be bi.  There is nothing in the game lore that even suggests that the rate of sexuality is any different in Thedas than our own world.  If that were so, then we should expect to see large scale cultural differences and inheriance differences (at minimum) to account for this and we do not.

=Polaris

We're already accepting that any available romantic interest  would just happen to be interested in Hawke. That's just as unbelievable in a fantasy world. But that's the fantasy part.

Its certainly more believable than every mage succumbing to blood magic, or every dalish succumbing to stupidity. Yet that happens with much greater frequency around Hawke.

[Nodscouter]

IanPolaris wrote...

Nodscouter wrote...

But... for f*cks sake, aren't we basically told in DA2 that Thedas have a different percentage of non-straight people? Like, really really different?
And your point is still that real world statistics apply to Thedas. It just doesn't work like that.

No we aren't.  We are asked to accept without explaination four completely different people that all just happen to run into Hawke and all just happen to be bi.  There is nothing in the game lore that even suggests that the rate of sexuality is any different in Thedas than our own world.  If that were so, then we should expect to see large scale cultural differences and inheriance differences (at minimum) to account for this and we do not.

=Polaris

Why? Why do we have to have huge differences because of it? I see no reason to suggest this would be true.
And once more, DA2 proves to us that Bisexauls are far more common in Thedas than in the real world. Just because it misses a codex entry doesn't mean it's not true (I think it might be a bit embarrasing for the developers to write a codex entry explaining how sexuality is different than in the real world. Plus, pretty wasteful)

[IanPolaris]

Nodscouter wrote...

Magic is unlikely to exist in the real world. It exists in Thedas, proved in DA:O
Having a large amount of bisxexuals is unlikely to be true in the real world. There's a large amount of bisexuals in Thedas, proved in DA2.
Can't say I see the problem here.

*sigh*  Magic exists in Thedas because we are told it does.  That's fiat.  Futhermore we are told about how it works and how it can (and can not) break existing laws of physics and physical assumptions.  We are told by fiat that some creatures (such as Dragons) exist when normally simply Physics would indicate they could not. 

These are EXPLICIT parts of the world we are told to accept.  That's fine.

We are NEVER told there are any more or less bisexuals in Thedas vs our world anywhere.  Just because a world is magical does not mean you get to assume whatever you like about how the world works.  It's always assumed that things work like they do in real life unless the author says something different (and that has never happened with this issue).

-Polaris

[Mystranna Kelteel]

IanPolaris wrote...
Let's look at it.  The odds of two people being Bi are much higher.  Specifically they are 1/2500.  This is a low but BELIEVABLE especially since we are given extensive rationals and backstories about bards and assassins that explain why they tend to select those that are bi.  That's a far cry from 1 in 5 million with not a word of explaination or rational.
As for Thedas, it's simply verisimilitude.  Thedas like any world is assumed to work the same way ours does unless we are told differently and we are never told differently when it comes to overall sexuality....so RL stats apply.
-Polaris

See, you're throwing in your own biased expectations and reasoning now.

Even if real life stats do apply you've said yourself that it is statistically possible to meet 4 bisexual people.  You've also said yourself that Thedas should pretty much operate in the same way as the real world.  The words "pretty much" directly imply that there is some wiggle room, since, you know, this is a fantasy videogame.

You are selectively creating problems when none should logically exist.  There are a million statistically improbable to impossible things going on in the game, from carrying around dozens of pieces of armor at once, people repeating the same dialogue over and over, people not changing position in the streets for years at a time, etc.
Of course, when those things happen you dismiss them because "it's a videogame", but when your four potential love interests are all bisexual you cry foul, again, because it's a videogame?  How does that make sense?  It doesn't make sense until you start throwing in your personal biased expectations.  Because you wouldn't even know that all 4 people are bisexual unless you actively tried to romance them all or you used emta-game knowledge.

[helloween7]

As I see it, Thedas isn't the real world. The Chantry doesn't have a view on homosexuality or bisexuality, and it seems to be socially accepted by all (or most. I'd like to see the Qun's opinion on the matter). Who knows, maybe the percentage of the Thedas population self-identifying as bisexual is far higher than in the real world.

Playing as a straight woman, the only openly bi character that I've come across is Isabela. I've seen it's a bit different if you're playing a man (Anders should really have a "turn down gently" option in that first round of flirting of his), but really, what does it matter?

[lobi]

Everyone is Bi in Thedas because there is no television. Learn to culture.

Modifié par lobi, 10 mai 2011 - 02:00 .

[IanPolaris]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Its certainly more believable than every mage succumbing to blood magic, or every dalish succumbing to stupidity. Yet that happens with much greater frequency around Hawke.

I won't argue this.  If you go back and read my prior posts on this thread, I outright stated that of all the issues I have with DA2, this one doesn't even come in the top 10...that there were other issues (such as some you mention) that violate verisimilitude far worse...but that doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

-Polaris

[Wulfram]

All odds of 1 in 6,250,000 mean is Hawke won the lottery