123 réponses à ce sujet

[Augustei]

One thing that I really cant understand about policing mages is.. Why cant they police themselves when ones takes into consideration the following:

The current system has the templars policing the mages, who in turn are policed by the Seekers of Truth who "appeare when a templar has failed in his duties" and on top of that , are made addicted to lyrium where the chantry controls the trade of it.
So.. if the chantry cant fully trust its on templars as shown by setting up these protocols.. Then why cant they simply replace the Templars with mages who also need lyrium, and have the seekers of truth police the mages instead of the templars.. I mean it makes far more sense and is good from the mage point of view.

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 10 mai 2011 - 12:54 .

[Xilizhra]

Just remove the lyrium altogether.

[GSSAGE7]

Probably because the Templars are a bit easier to control. If the mages try to revolt, the anti-mages are already there to put them down. If the templars revolt, bring more guys with swords.
As Alistair said, against a non-mage, a Templar is just a guy with armor. And those are much easier to take out than someone who can throw fire and lightning at you.

[Forst1999]

Well would other mages police the mages? Even if they did, would the chantry trust such a system? Remember, mages don't actually need lyrium. If they want to revolt against the chantry, they could always use blood.

[Augustei]

Forst1999 wrote...

Well would other mages police the mages? Even if they did, would the chantry trust such a system? Remember, mages don't actually need lyrium. If they want to revolt against the chantry, they could always use blood.

yeah but it still is essentially an addictive drug they take, so If they revolt they will be denied their lyrium and the seekers can kill the leaders of the revolution

[Pandaman102]

If you look at it from a different perspective the Chantry controlling lyrium trade and spreading misinformation about Templars needing a constant supply to use their powers is a way to protect mages. The system basically makes Templar training appear too expensive for most people to afford and for those who can afford it they either need to explain to the Chantry why they need to buy so much lyrium (really can't just admit they stole the secrets of Templar training) or rely on smuggled lyrium (which would be even more expensive and breaking Chantry law).

The result is Circle mages (and their Templar escorts) out on official missions won't have to worry about anti-mage vigilantes successfully ambushing them at every opportunity.

But you can also shift your perspective again and just see it as a system to guarantee the loyalty of the faithful by holding this massive "we're the only ones between you and the mages" blackmail over their heads. That tends to work better when the person openly standing between the masses and the mages isn't a mage him/herself. As for the Seekers? Nothing says they're exclusively the Templars' watchdogs, just that Templars who break the rules dislike them.

But then again anyone who breaks rules/laws tend to dislike people in black armor swooping down to punish them for it.

Modifié par Pandaman102, 10 mai 2011 - 01:34 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lyrium on mages might make them extremely powerful (or insane). It's a possibility.

[Wulfram]

Often it seems Lyrium can be substituted with Blood Magic. If mages could deal with their Lyrium withdrawal this way, it would make it rather self defeating.

[MasterSolo]

Mages are being watched by templars because they can fall to blood magic. Every mage can fall to blood magic. If the one of the mages that is watching the other mages, falls to blood magic, people might not notice it, and he might end up killing several people. The templars are constantly watching mages. If one of them falls to blood magic, he is instantly killed, without him doing any harm. There are excpetions, but if mages would watch over mages, I think that would probably lead to a mass conversion to blood magic. At least that's the way I see it.

[The Baconer]

MasterSolo wrote...

Mages are being watched by templars because they can fall to blood magic. Every mage can fall to blood magic. If the one of the mages that is watching the other mages, falls to blood magic, people might not notice it, and he might end up killing several people. The templars are constantly watching mages. If one of them falls to blood magic, he is instantly killed, without him doing any harm. There are excpetions, but if mages would watch over mages, I think that would probably lead to a mass conversion to blood magic. At least that's the way I see it.

I think you mean "Abominations and/or Demons" as opposed to Blood Magic. Besides, one doesn't 'fall' to Blood Magic -- they ascend.

[LobselVith8]

I think the difference is that it doesn't seem that mages become addicted to lyrium (since there's no mention of this in Origins or DA2), while templars do become addicted (which makes many of them crave more and more lyrium over time). The mage protagonist never makes any reference to mages suffering from lyrium withdrawal or anything similar when Alistair discusses how templars become addicted to lyrium, and he views it as a means of control by the Chantry to keep templars in line.

[Chuvvy]

Forst1999 wrote...

Well would other mages police the mages? Even if they did, would the chantry trust such a system? Remember, mages don't actually need lyrium. If they want to revolt against the chantry, they could always use blood.

Given sufficent incentive they would. There was an all Jewish police force in the gehtos that would kill other Jews or turn them into the ****s.

Godwins law in full effect. ****s is censored? Seriously bioware? I think we all know they existed.

Modifié par Slidell505, 10 mai 2011 - 04:31 .

[LobselVith8]

Forst1999 wrote...

Well would other mages police the mages? Even if they did, would the chantry trust such a system? Remember, mages don't actually need lyrium. If they want to revolt against the chantry, they could always use blood.

First Enchanter Irving (a moderate, no less) is thrilled with the Hero of Ferelden asking for the Circle of Ferelden to be given it's independence, and thanks him for freeing the mages from their "shackles." I'd say the mages are willing to police themselves if given the chance, and the ruler of Ferelden thinks the mages have earned the right to govern themselves.

MasterSolo wrote...

Mages are being watched by templars because they can fall to blood magic. Every mage can fall to blood magic. If the one of the mages that is watching the other mages, falls to blood magic, people might not notice it, and he might end up killing several people.

You mean, like the Grey Warden mages who use blood magic against the darkspawn? I don't see blood magic as evil, and it has benevolent purposes (like creating the Grey Wardens through The Joining). Merrill uses blood magic, and she's a good (and smart) character.

MasterSolo wrote...

The templars are constantly watching mages. If one of them falls to blood magic, he is instantly killed, without him doing any harm. There are excpetions, but if mages would watch over mages, I think that would probably lead to a mass conversion to blood magic. At least that's the way I see it.

There are free mages among the Avvar tribes, the Chasind Wilders, the Dalish clans, and in the kingdom of Rivain, but they aren't societies built on blood magic or overrun with abominations. In fact, a codex mentions these societies in an argument for freeing the mages from templar control because they are "arguably, no worse off" than the Andrastian societies with the Chantry controlled Circles.

[MasterSolo]

The Baconer wrote...

I think you mean "Abominations and/or Demons" as opposed to Blood Magic. Besides, one doesn't 'fall' to Blood Magic -- they ascend.

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean, like the Grey Warden mages
who use blood magic against the darkspawn? I don't see blood magic as
evil, and it has benevolent purposes (like creating the Grey Wardens
through The Joining). Merrill uses blood magic, and she's a good (and
smart) character.

There are free mages among the Avvar tribes,
the Chasind Wilders, the Dalish clans, and in the kingdom of Rivain, but
they aren't societies built on blood magic or overrun with
abominations. In fact, a codex mentions these societies in an argument
for freeing the mages from templar control because they are "arguably,
no worse off" than the Andrastian societies with the Chantry controlled
Circles.

The only way to learn Blood Magic in the Dragon Age is through a demon, that's why when Merril uses it, Hawke says "Called it what you want, you summoned a demon." Every blood mage that exists today, made a pact with a demon. Sooner or later they will become abominations(of course it depends on the mage but most of them do). That doesn't really mean "ascend" when you become an abomination. It doesn't matter if there are blood mages among the wardens, Avvar tribes or Chasind. All of the blood mages risk becoming abominations, and that is why the Circle has the templars, to be sure that if one of the mage(blood mage or not) does become an abomination he doesn't end up killing dozens or hundreds of poeple.

[Big I]

MasterSolo wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean, like the Grey Warden mages
who use blood magic against the darkspawn? I don't see blood magic as
evil, and it has benevolent purposes (like creating the Grey Wardens
through The Joining). Merrill uses blood magic, and she's a good (and
smart) character.

There are free mages among the Avvar tribes,
the Chasind Wilders, the Dalish clans, and in the kingdom of Rivain, but
they aren't societies built on blood magic or overrun with
abominations. In fact, a codex mentions these societies in an argument
for freeing the mages from templar control because they are "arguably,
no worse off" than the Andrastian societies with the Chantry controlled
Circles.

The only way to learn Blood Magic in the Dragon Age is through a demon, that's why when Merril uses it, Hawke says "Called it what you want, you summoned a demon." Every blood mage that exists today, made a pact with a demon. Sooner or later they will become abominations(of course it depends on the mage but most of them do). That doesn't really mean "ascend" when you become an abomination. It doesn't matter if there are blood mages among the wardens, Avvar tribes or Chasind. All of the blood mages risk becoming abominations, and that is why the Circle has the templars, to be sure that if one of the mage(blood mage or not) does become an abomination he doesn't end up killing dozens or hundreds of poeple.

I always saw Chantry oversight of the Circle to be more about keeping political power conentrated in the hands of non-mages than protecting the public, otherwise why stop them from holding titles?

As for how you become a blood mage, the lore is inconsistent. Did blood mage Hawke make a deal? Did Orsino? Even Anders, who spends most of DA2 loudly saying that blood magic=demon deal, asks Merrill if she learnt from a demon or stumbled across it accidently. It's possible that blood magic doesn't require a deal with a demon.'

I also think blood magic is only a problem if it's used for nefarious purposes.

[LobselVith8]

No, MasterSolo, Merrill used blood magic to summon a demon to destroy the barrier. Jowan and the Orlesian Warden of Amaranthine are proof you don't need to deal with a demon to learn how to use blood magic because they learn it through books. Anders even asks Merrill if she learned it by accident. And no, your theory that they will become abominations simply for learning blood magic has no basis in the lore.

Also, the templars are there in the Circle of Magi because the Chantry controls the mages.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Orlesian Warden learns BLood Magic through a book for purely convenience's sake. That is gameplay taking prevalence over lore at its purest.

Jowan read books about Blood Magic. What they taught him we don't know. Jowan may have learned how to contact demons trhough the books, and the demons taught him the rest.

[LobselVith8]

The Orlesian Warden learns about blood magic in the same fashion that Jowan does, which is through books. Why does this bother you so much that you want to make leaps in logic to justify the idea of demons when, time and again, we see that mages don't need demons go learn blood magic. In case you forgot, EmperorSahlertz, Anders asks Merrill if she learned blood magic by accident, so it doesn't require a demon in order for a mage to learn blood magic.

[Beerfish]

XxDeonxX wrote...

One thing that I really cant understand about policing mages is.. Why cant they police themselves when ones takes into consideration the following:

They can easily police themselves and part of the circle hierarchy suggest they do just that however if you look at the circle head enchanters for both the lake calenhand circle and the kirwall circle they are pretty terrible at it.  There is also the fear of the situation becoming the Tevinter Imperium part deux.  If both Orsino and Irving did their jobs there would be a heck of a lot less conflict in this regard.  They have proven that they can't look after themselves rather than can.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Orlesian Warden learns about blood magic in the same fashion that Jowan does, which is through books. Why does this bother you so much that you want to make leaps in logic to justify the idea of demons when, time and again, we see that mages don't need demons go learn blood magic. In case you forgot, EmperorSahlertz, Anders asks Merrill if she learned blood magic by accident, so it doesn't require a demon in order for a mage to learn blood magic.

Time and again. You mean twice. According to you.
I say, that the Blood Magic specialization book, is not a lore device, it is purely gameplay mechanics. And Anders was obviously jesting, which in his nature.

The only possible mage we know of, to have possibly learned blood magic through a book, with no contact to demons, is Jowan. But since we don't read the book for ourselves, we can never come to a conclusion on wether or not demons were involved.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz, Jowan learned the practice from books, which is why they were removed from the library by First Enchanter Irving. There is no evidence you must learn blood magic from demons when even Anders asks if Merrill learned it on her own. And nothing in his tone suggests that he was jesting with Merrill. Anders asked Merrill if she learned blood magic by realizing the power within her own blood, or if she learned it from a demon.

[The Baconer]

MasterSolo wrote...

Every blood mage that exists today, made a pact with a demon.

Wynne didn't. (INMYGAMELOL)
Morrigan didn't.
Anders didn't.
The Orlesian Warden didn't.
Jowan didn't.
Hawke didn't.
Velanna didn't.
Finn didn't.

Sooner or later they will become abominations(of course it depends on the mage but most of them do).

You're right, and that's certainly why it's always brought up as one of Tevinter's biggest problems. Oh, wait....

That doesn't really mean "ascend" when you become an abomination.

Good thing I never said that.

Modifié par The Baconer, 11 mai 2011 - 08:47 .

[Elessie]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think the difference is that it doesn't seem that mages become addicted to lyrium (since there's no mention of this in Origins or DA2), while templars do become addicted (which makes many of them crave more and more lyrium over time). The mage protagonist never makes any reference to mages suffering from lyrium withdrawal or anything similar when Alistair discusses how templars become addicted to lyrium, and he views it as a means of control by the Chantry to keep templars in line.

The codex says mages can suffer addiction like templars, and even beyond that, physical mutation from too much lyrium.

Quite awhile ago, there was a thread where someone from Bioware (maybe David Gaider?  I don't remember) said that they thought about putting lyrium addiction in as a game mechanic for mages and templars, but it didn't make it in.  If I recall, it was something about lyrium decreasing in effectiveness and you'd have to take more and more for the same effect.  And you could go into withdrawal.  Maybe someone remembers that thread better or still has a link to it...

[LobselVith8]

@Elessie, the Lyrium codex mentions that mages suffered from mutations in the Imperium for prolonged use, but it doesn't state that mages become addicted to lyrium like templars do.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz, Jowan learned the practice from books, which is why they were removed from the library by First Enchanter Irving. There is no evidence you must learn blood magic from demons when even Anders asks if Merrill learned it on her own. And nothing in his tone suggests that he was jesting with Merrill. Anders asked Merrill if she learned blood magic by realizing the power within her own blood, or if she learned it from a demon.

Seriously. Go listen to the conversation between Merrill and Anders again. He is clearly using sarcasm as an attack towards her.
You don't know what Jowan read about in those books. As I have now said countless times, those books could have been about contacting demons, with the intentions of learning blood magic, hence why they were labelled books about blood magic. Or they could indeed have been about blood magic, and Jowan made a pact with a demon prior to reading them. We can't know for sure.
THere are several codex entries which suggests that blood amgic is taught by demons. There are no entries which suggest it can be taught without demons. So far, the evidence is weighed towards demon involvement.